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Thread: NSA data mining

  1. #201

    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2...ter-greenwald/

    [...]only the energetic efforts of the Brazilian embassy managed to just barely get Miranda out of there and home to a free country.
    [...]Miranda had been staying with Laura Poitras, the American documentary filmmaker who has been instrumental in Greenwald’s reporting.
    By citing the "Terrorism Act" as justification for their actions, the Brits violated their own procedures, as this paragraph from their Code of Practice makes clear:

    "The purpose of questioning and associated powers is to determine whether a person appears to be someone who is or has been concerned in the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism. The powers, which are additional to the powers of arrest under the Act, should not be used for any other purpose."

  2. #202

    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Greenwald speaks:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...etained-uk-nsa

    [...]The official - who refused to give his name but would only identify himself by his number: 203654 - said David was not allowed to have a lawyer present, nor would they allow me to talk to him.
    [...]five more hours went by and neither the Guardian's lawyers nor Brazilian officials, including the Ambassador to the UK in London, were able to obtain any information about David.[...]
    According to a document published by the UK government about Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act, "fewer than 3 people in every 10,000 are examined as they pass through UK borders"[...]
    The stated purpose of this law, as the name suggests, is to question people about terrorism.[...]

    But they obviously had zero suspicion that David was associated with a terrorist organization or involved in any terrorist plot. Instead, they spent their time interrogating him about the NSA reporting which Laura Poitras, the Guardian and I are doing[...]

  3. #203

    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Glenn Greenwald offered Brazilian protection from U.S.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/08/08/glen...ll_not_accept/

    [...]the Brazilian government will offer Guardian writer Glenn Greenwald protection from the U.S. government after determining he risks facing legal action if he returns to the U.S.
    “I haven’t requested any protection from the Brazilian government or any other government because, rather obviously, I’ve committed no crime — unless investigative journalism is now a felony in the U.S.,” Greenwald said
    "[...]the fact that Brazilian authorities believe there is a real possibility that the U.S. would unjustly prosecute journalists for the ‘crime’ of reporting what the U.S. government is doing is a powerful indictment of the U.S.’s current image in the world[...]"
    “Given that the Obama DOJ has adopted theories that would criminalize journalism in both the WikiLeaks Grand Jury proceeding and the investigation of James Rosen, given that it has waged what most observers agree is an unprecedented war on whistle-blowers, and given that several prominent political figures and journalists have called for my prosecution, I obviously take the risk seriously,” Greenwald adds. “But I take more seriously the Constitution’s guarantee of a free press in the First Amendment. So I have every intention of entering the U.S. as soon as my schedule permits and there’s a reason to do so.”

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    ^^^ Thanks newbored!

    Absolutely outrageous behavior by the Brits.

  5. #205
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    I don't think calling people paranoid or tinfoil hats makes any sense any more. We were just shown that 90% of the stuff that people easily used to dismiss as paranoia, is, in fact, true.
    How were we shown that exactly? If your belief is that NSA develops systems and methods to spy on people, then you're 100% correct. They've admitted to that. If your argument is that they use those systems to spy on Americans, then nothing has been shown to support that. The closest they may have come is this "damning" report on compliance violations that a) conveniently has the details left out by the WP via not printing the appendices that the report itself says contain details on the compliance incidences and b) shows that there were 2,776 in a year (what about previous years?) where 240+ million database queries occurred (and most of those - 1900+ - being "roamer" incidents which don't even involve Americans) - hardly indicative of mass surveillance on the American public. Additionally, even the most biased of news sources and the most vocal of Congressional critics conceded that none of these incidents appeared to be intentional which eliminates the ideas of spying on Americans since spying, snooping, surveillance, etc. requires intent to do so.

    Again, these are legitimate programs (that have some legitimate mistakes when operating them - around 0.000011%) that the news media is selecting facts from classified documents they have to push their agenda and all of the people who were already predisposed to dislike the NSA or the government in general are all jumping on board to say "see I told you so" without actually getting all of the facts. One thing I would like to see from the Washington Post is the remainder of the report that has the details on these compliance issues. What are they hiding from us that they can't publish the remainder of the very report they quote as support of their position?

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    ^^^ @tigerfan,

    So you now build your case on Hanlon's Razor.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    It must be Real Truth if NSA's UK minions are using terrorism statutes to detain the partner of Glenn Greenwald for 9 hours and seize his belongings. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ained-heathrow
    One is left to wonder if a Mrs. Greenwald would have been detained. And four 9 hours. Would they have confiscated her nappies?

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    ^^^ Thanks newbored!

    Absolutely outrageous behavior by the Brits.
    The UK terror legislation has been abused by the police....leading me to believe that either amendments will be made to this legislation, or suitable directions will be issued to the police by the appropriate government minister to avoid repetitions that appear to suck up to the United States authorities.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Additionally, even the most biased of news sources and the most vocal of Congressional critics conceded that none of these incidents appeared to be intentional which eliminates the ideas of spying on Americans since spying, snooping, surveillance, etc. requires intent to do so.
    The NSA is not going to confess to spying on United States citizens.

    The NSA snoops on those who they believe are a threat to the security of the United States....including US citizens....to believe otherwise would be to accept that the NSA believes that US citizens will never commit acts of terror on American soil cue Timothy McVeigh.

  10. #210
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    How were we shown that exactly? If your belief is that NSA develops systems and methods to spy on people, then you're 100% correct. They've admitted to that. If your argument is that they use those systems to spy on Americans, then nothing has been shown to support that.
    I don't fucking care whether they are spying on Americans or not. I don't fucking care whether it is legal in the US or not.

    And neither should any American. What has been in doubt is whether they have the ressources or the technical knowledge to pull this kind of monitoring off. And this has been proven just by the tech specs from xkeyscore. So they have the infrastructure and the possibility. There is no reason to believe it will not be abused. This is the reason why hackers are fighting for data privacy and against global databases since the 80s and before.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Corny there is no proof it has yet, as of the present moment, taking in to account all the relevant information, caused, as it were, the death of the sun and the destruction of all life on this planet. And in particular, AMERICAN life on this planet.

    Without proof of that actually having already happened, questioning the NSA or demanding open accountability and improved legal safeguards, are just the ravings of a treasonous crackpot.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The NSA is not going to confess to spying on United States citizens.

    The NSA snoops on those who they believe are a threat to the security of the United States....including US citizens....to believe otherwise would be to accept that the NSA believes that US citizens will never commit acts of terror on American soil cue Timothy McVeigh.
    Only partially correct. Don't forget the potential criminals caught in the hopper. You know, the one hop - two hops - three hops machine.

    From http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...=1#post8947660


    The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

    From the Memorandum:


    Section 3-Acquisition and Processing-General
    ....
    (b) Personnel will exercise reasonable judgment in determining whether information acquired must be minimized and will destroy inadvertently acquired communication ... at the earliest practicable point ... at which such communication can be identified either: ... or, as not containing evidence of a crime ....

    Section 5-Domestic Communications
    A communication identified as a domestic communication will be promptly destroyed ... unless ...
    (2) the communication ... is reasonably believed to contain evidence of a crime that has been, is being, or is about to be committed
    . Such communication may be disseminated ....[e.s.]

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    I don't fucking care whether they are spying on Americans or not. I don't fucking care whether it is legal in the US or not.

    And neither should any American. What has been in doubt is whether they have the ressources or the technical knowledge to pull this kind of monitoring off. And this has been proven just by the tech specs from xkeyscore. So they have the infrastructure and the possibility. There is no reason to believe it will not be abused.

    History has shown that groups wielding unsupervised power ALWAYS abuse their authority when left unsupervised long enough. ALWAYS.

    The NSA has operated without supervision since early in the GWB administration. Their own internal audits - which they tried to conceal from the Senate Judiciary Committee which should be supervising them - document some of their own abuses of power. Not only is there no reason to believe the NSA has not abused its authority, but their own evidence indicates they have.

    It is time to bring these people under control. In the absence of presidential leadership on this, Senator Partick Leahy (chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee) will be conducting hearings into the NSA's behavior.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    -> see: stanford prison experiment
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    -> see: stanford prison experiment
    Stanford Prison Experiment

    A Simulation Study of the Psychology of Imprisonment Conducted at Stanford University

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I think the Milgram Experiment is also instructive.

    The main lesson there was that people will do anything when they feel it is directed by someone in authority.

    Partly in opposition to that experiment, and ironically partly as a result of what its findings revealed about human nature, university research is now subject to new rules of ethics, and close scrutiny from ethics boards.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    UK security agents enter Guardian offices, destroy hard-drives after Guardian refused to turn over Snowden materials.

    .... And so one of the more bizarre moments in the Guardian's long history occurred – with two GCHQ security experts overseeing the destruction of hard drives in the Guardian's basement just to make sure there was nothing in the mangled bits of metal which could possibly be of any interest to passing Chinese agents. "We can call off the black helicopters," joked one as we swept up the remains of a MacBook Pro.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...nger-reporters

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...inues-ny.shtml

    Apparently no irreplaceable Snowden material was destroyed.

    The Guardian has moved all Snowden reporting to less fascist environments,

  18. #218

    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    ^^^ Thanks newbored!

    Absolutely outrageous behavior by the Brits.
    My pleasure, man.

    Very serious transgressions by the British Government, indeed. It's all very worrying, I'd say. It'd seem the UK hasn't changed its long tradition of sucking up to and being entirely compliant to the USA Government. It hadn't been this ridiculous since the Bush/Blair days...

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The NSA is not going to confess to spying on United States citizens.
    The NSA snoops on those who they believe are a threat to the security of the United States....including US citizens....to believe otherwise would be to accept that the NSA believes that US citizens will never commit acts of terror on American soil cue Timothy McVeigh.
    You keep bringing up Timothy McVeigh, yet that has no bearing on this matter or the NSA in general. No one has once accused the NSA of spying on, or failing to spy on, Timothy McVeigh nor has any evidence ever been produced to show that he was under any investigation before the OKC bombing, despite his rather public extremist views. If you're arguing that he was a domestic threat, then that part is obviously true. However, I think history has actually shown that domestic threats tend to be the most successful since they are protected by the Fourth Amendment. There is no information at all in there to support your contention that NSA spies on all threats, including American citizens. In fact, I think the evidence tends to point the other direction - that the lack of spying on US citizens allows for more domestic terror attacks to reach final planning and execution stages. It's time to cue the Boston Marathon bombing and the attempted Time Square bombing - all planned and carried out by US citizens or lawful resident aliens (both groups protected as US persons under FISA).

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    I don't fucking care whether they are spying on Americans or not. I don't fucking care whether it is legal in the US or not.

    And neither should any American. What has been in doubt is whether they have the ressources or the technical knowledge to pull this kind of monitoring off. And this has been proven just by the tech specs from xkeyscore. So they have the infrastructure and the possibility. There is no reason to believe it will not be abused. This is the reason why hackers are fighting for data privacy and against global databases since the 80s and before.
    I don't think the existence of resources or technological capability of the US (or many other countries for that matter) to spy on anyone they wish was ever in doubt. There are numerous government and private entities out there who could easily spy on just about anyone in the world. But is your contention that if something has the possibility of being abused, then it should be eliminated/made illegal? If so, then I think the world should be prepared to do without just about everything we enjoy today, because any of it could be abused. Your very example of hackers shows that you support abuse of technology as long as it supports what your position is.

    I think the more relevant question is has it been abused, and I don't think there is any evidence that it has. There is evidence of mistakes (in an extremely small quantity), but abuse necessarily requires intent, and so far every source out there clearly states that there has been no intentional misuse of these capabilities.

    But do tell - what are your proposals to "fix" this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Only partially correct. Don't forget the potential criminals caught in the hopper. You know, the one hop - two hops - three hops machine.

    From http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...=1#post8947660


    The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

    From the

    Memorandum
    :
    Your concerns are based in the law. 50 USC section 1801(h)(3)
    Neither the NSA nor the Attorney General has reinterpreted anything. It is specifically codified in the law. If you want it changed, write your Congressman. This requirement has existed in the FISA since it was originally passed and has been available for anyone to see. There has been little controversy to this until now.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    History has shown that groups wielding unsupervised power ALWAYS abuse their authority when left unsupervised long enough. ALWAYS.

    The NSA has operated without supervision since early in the GWB administration. Their own internal audits - which they tried to conceal from the Senate Judiciary Committee which should be supervising them - document some of their own abuses of power. Not only is there no reason to believe the NSA has not abused its authority, but their own evidence indicates they have.
    It is time to bring these people under control.

    In the absence of presidential leadership on this, Senator Partick Leahy (chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee) will be conducting hearings into the NSA's behavior.
    The NSA has actually been under supervision since the FISA act was passed. The Senate Judiciary Committee is not who the NSA is required by law to report to. They report to the Intelligence Committees. And this report was an internal audit report anyway. All of these are compiled into official reports and passed on to the Intelligence Committees every month.

    Dianne Feinstein's statements on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Stanford Prison Experiment
    A Simulation Study of the Psychology of Imprisonment Conducted at Stanford University
    There is a long write up about the shortcomings of that experiment here. One of the contentions made is that it's the nature of the people involved in the actions that contribute heavily to said actions. This also addresses the lengths to which people will go within what they are assigned or are expected to do. The NSA is not tasked, expected, or allowed to target American citizens. They are allowed to target foreigners for foreign intelligence purposes. The correct correlation between this experiment and the NSA actions would be how aggressively and to what lengths the NSA goes to get foreign intelligence from foreign targets - the job they are tasked to do. Consequently, the proper experiment to correlate to what you think the NSA is currently doing would be to perform the Prison Experiment and find that while the guards were ruthless in their treatment of prisoners, they also started dealing drugs on the side or beating their wife at home.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think the Milgram Experiment is also instructive.

    The main lesson there was that people will do anything when they feel it is directed by someone in authority.

    Partly in opposition to that experiment, and ironically partly as a result of what its findings revealed about human nature, university research is now subject to new rules of ethics, and close scrutiny from ethics boards.
    I don't see the correlation here between the two. This experiment could represent anyone - a person doing what their boss tells them at work to, a kid doing their homework because their parents told them, and someone following the speed limit because it's the law. Are you implying this experiment somehow describes a situation at the NSA where everyone is breaking the law because their director told them to? Because if so, a more accurate experiment would be to give 40 people a gun and instruct them to shoot someone, feeding them each one of the 4 phrases every time they refused. You would also instruct them that the law is that you can't shoot someone and that you would go to jail for a long time if you did shoot someone. I bet you would find a lot more people would be unwilling to listen to said authority figure if they knew they were breaking the law and there were real consequences.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You keep bringing up Timothy McVeigh, yet that has no bearing on this matter or the NSA in general.
    Timothy McVeigh's terrorist actions in Oklahoma City killing United States citizens evidence the fact that white skinned, United States citizens can, and do commit acts of terror against their fellow Americans; precedent and evidence sufficient for the NSA to exclude none from their surveillance activities....

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Only partially correct. Don't forget the potential criminals caught in the hopper. You know, the one hop - two hops - three hops machine.

    From http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...=1#post8947660


    The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

    From the Memorandum:
    It has long been a feature of the activities of intelligence services, even in democratic nations that their activities should be presented to the general public, with the pretence that they are an essential ingredient in the defence of national security with every means at their disposal justifiable to defeat any threat to that nation's sense of security...... the emergence of totalitarian practices within the security apparatus of a democratic state that George Orwell described when speaking of the growing threats from Communism in his much respected 1984.....Herr Goebbels would have been proud of the NSA's code of practice.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And this report was an internal audit report anyway. All of these are compiled into official reports and passed on to the Intelligence Committees every month.
    Evidently, the normal manner in which this information is "passed on to the Intelligence Committees" is by someone leaking it to The Washington Post, where the committee members may then read about what's going on in the agencies they supervise.

    Because that's what happened.

    If it hadn't been for Ed Snowden, Congress still would have no idea what's going on over at the NSA.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Evidently, the normal manner in which this information is "passed on to the Intelligence Committees" is by someone leaking it to The Washington Post, where the committee members may then read about what's going on in the agencies they supervise.

    Because that's what happened.

    If it hadn't been for Ed Snowden, Congress still would have no idea what's going on over at the NSA.
    Actually, that's not what happened. The members of said Intelligence Committees have confirmed that they receive detailed briefings every month on these programs and compliance issues. You can read the link I posted earlier for an example. Even good ole' Senators Wyden and Udall, whose frequent use of the phrase "tip of the iceberg" rivals that of newspapers during the Titanic era, must be aware of the full iceberg if they're warning about just the tips of them.

    But what would be your ideal handling of this situation? Should there be a national referendum every time the intelligence community wants to do something? Should we just eliminate the intelligence community altogether and trust in the good of people around the world? Should we just have the intelligence community release details on everything they do every month to the newspapers so people can have their monthly dose of intrigue satisfied? What is your proposed solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Timothy McVeigh's terrorist actions in Oklahoma City killing United States citizens evidence the fact that white skinned, United States citizens can, and do commit acts of terror against their fellow Americans; precedent and evidence sufficient for the NSA to exclude none from their surveillance activities....
    It's evidence of nothing except that Timothy McVeigh was a bad guy. There is no correlative link between Timothy McVeigh and the NSA. The FBI is who investigates domestic terrorists and criminal suspects. You need to read up on the US's intelligence and criminal investigative process and get a better idea of how things work. I would also recommend reading a few Sherlock Holmes stories to get an idea of what evidence is and how it needs to actually have a correlative link to what you are trying to prove.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And this report was an internal audit report anyway. All of these are compiled into official reports and passed on to the Intelligence Committees every month.
    Where's your evidence for this?

    It's odd that you demand evidence for some things that US Senators involved report, but take others at face value.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Where's your evidence for this?

    It's odd that you demand evidence for some things that US Senators involved report, but take others at face value.
    Well I provided it earlier, but here is some again:

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/polit...rted-it/68429/
    Over email, Kelsey Knight, communications director for Chairman Mike Rogers of Michigan, answered simply, "yes," he had seen it. She then offered more detail.

    The Committee did receive the report prior to its publication in the Post. The Committee is regularly informed on NSA's use of its authorities, to include reporting on unintentional and technical errors, such as the ones detailed in the report.
    http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/publ...1-321e7a9a5079
    While todayís Washington Post stated that Feinstein did not receive a copy of the 2012 audit cited by the paper until The Post asked about it, Feinsteinís full statement provided on Thursday to the paper made clear the committee receives the FISA compliance information in a more official format rather than as an internal NSA statistical report.
    I also like the Feinstein statement because it showed how the Washington Post omitted her whole statement in order to make it sound like she knew nothing about these incidents in order to support their sensational story.

    Additionally, while not saying it outright, Sens. Wyden and Udall also had to have been aware of these compliance incidences, as their "I told you so" statement about tips of icebergs directly indicates that they knew about these situations (and apparently a lot more per their lofty rhetoric.)

    So other than Sen. Leahy, whose committee does not have oversight of the intelligence agencies and who consequently would not get the compliance reports, do YOU have any evidence of anyone on these committees saying they never received the information contained in this INTERNAL NSA memo?

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Your very example of hackers shows that you support abuse of technology as long as it supports what your position is.
    What example ? Also, re: hackers:



    And no, I did not say that everything that can be abused should be forbidden. I said that everything that can be abused will be abused. Thus it's idiotic to believe that databases like this won't be abused because it would be against some law.

    We all know the quote about freedom and security and people sacrificing one over the other and not deserving any of it.

    Now even your president came up with this gem.
    "We oppose the pursuit of martial law, which denies those rights to citizens under the principle that security trumps individual freedom or that might makes right."
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/1...a-remarks.html

    He is quickly becoming a bigger joke than Mr. Bush jun. ....
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Glimmerglass technology used by NSA and GCHQ?

    Glimmerglass Intercepts Global Data Traffic for Intelligence Agencies

    Glimmerglass, a northern California company that sells optical fiber technology, offers government agencies a software product called “CyberSweep” to intercept signals on undersea cables. The company says their technology can analyze Gmail and Yahoo! Mail as well as social media like Facebook and Twitter to discover “actionable intelligence.”
    ....
    The Glimmerglass brochures can be downloaded here: http://www.wikileaks.org/spyfiles/do...ybersweep.html and http://www.wikileaks.org/spyfiles/do...onitoring.html
    http://corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15862

    Another fascinating - and long - discussion of operational details.

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    Apparently the Feds have yet to determine what materials Snowden took. This breathes life to Glenn Greenwald's statement that the revelations will continue. Some think the intrusion at the Guardian and the detention of David Miranda were ham-fisted attempts to get some idea of what information was out there.

    More than two months after documents leaked by former contractor Edward Snowden first began appearing in the news media, the National Security Agency still doesn’t know the full extent of what he took, according to intelligence community sources, and is “overwhelmed” trying to assess the damage.
    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_n...urces-say?lite (by Michael Isikoff)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    What example ? Also, re: hackers:



    And no, I did not say that everything that can be abused should be forbidden. I said that everything that can be abused will be abused. Thus it's idiotic to believe that databases like this won't be abused because it would be against some law.

    We all know the quote about freedom and security and people sacrificing one over the other and not deserving any of it.

    Now even your president came up with this gem.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/1...a-remarks.html

    He is quickly becoming a bigger joke than Mr. Bush jun. ....
    You invoked the hackers fight and used the NSA's activities as a reason for their activities. That sounds like an example to me.

    I'm now a bit confused about you bringing up the idea of anything that can be abused will be abused in this thread unless you are advocating that the possibility of abuse is reason for the termination of these programs. Anything in the world has the potential of being abused. The merits of whatever it is you are referencing being abused has to be judged against the benefit provided over the actual abuse that has occurred. I could argue (and many would agree with me) that guns have the potential to be abused and there are scores of documented cases of abuse of guns. The question becomes is the utility of having guns outweighed by the documented abuse of guns? I think the same principle applies here. We've been told of 50 terrorist acts that have been stopped due to, at least in some part, of one of these capabilities. Limited documentation of some of these plots has been provided. Has the documented abuse (of which none of us have seen any evidence) provided enough to outweigh the benefits that the system has provided?

    You bring up the freedom/security quote that we are all familiar with, but it works both ways. If you sacrifice too much freedom, you deserve neither freedom nor security, but if you sacrifice too much security in the name of freedom, the same thinking applies. It is indeed a balancing act that, while not as extreme as many make it out to be, still requires one to be slightly reduced for the other if you desire to have an effective measure of either. The difference in opinion among the population is where that line is drawn.

    And I wouldn't call President Obama a joke. While addressing martial law specifically, which is an extreme violation of personal freedom for an extreme measure of security, he was acknowledging that the two can go hand in hand without having to resort to the extreme ends of the spectrum. However, the totality of the statement has to be considered, in which he was specifically attributing the loss of personal freedoms in the name of security to martial law specifically, as that is what the definition of martial law necessarily implies.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Glimmerglass technology used by NSA and GCHQ?



    http://corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15862

    Another fascinating - and long - discussion of operational details.
    Indeed, it's good to see that private corporations are able to innovate ways of helping the government achieve their results. The NSA has a mission of gathering foreign intelligence for the government. It is a well known fact that things like Google, Facebook, and Yahoo are used worldwide. The fact that a company developed a way of allowing this information to be received is indicative of the idea that the government is not the only entity that has these capabilities. The claim on their website that they serve a global customer base as indicates that activities such as this aren't limited to just the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Apparently the Feds have yet to determine what materials Snowden took. This breathes life to Glenn Greenwald's statement that the revelations will continue. Some think the intrusion at the Guardian and the detention of David Miranda were ham-fisted attempts to get some idea of what information was out there.



    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_n...urces-say?lite (by Michael Isikoff)
    A good testament to how much information Snowden took. If he wanted to start a debate or had concerns about privacy violations, he could have taken the information needed to start such a conversation. However, it appears that he took so much data (started collecting it in 2012 when he worked for Dell and then moved to Booz-Allen to get access to more), that they are having a hard time even cataloging what he took. We are also seeing now where this information is being used outside of the debate starting process, with Greenwald divulging information not about alleged spying on US citizens, but foreign intelligence activities completely outside of the US (US hacking into Chinese computers, US collecting intelligence on Brazil and Latin American countries, UK collecting information on countries at the G-20 summit, etc.) We also see in his recent comments that he'll use this information in a sort of blackmail or vengeance fashion, threatening to now release more documents on more countries for his partner being detained. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if they used the detention of Miranda to confiscate information he was carrying between two parties who possess stolen information. In fact, the British Government has said as much. I find it funny that those who possess stolen documents are now complaining that their documents were stolen from them. Don't use your boyfriend as a data mule, passing through a country you possess classified information on which you have published, if you don't want him detained. I also find it kind of funny that the big, bad US that the Guardian loves demonizing is the place they said they did most of their reporting given the wide freedoms it gives to the press.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Apparently the Feds have yet to determine what materials Snowden took.

    This is true. Remarkably, the NSA still doesn't know what was taken.

    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_n...ok-sources-say


    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    This breathes life to Glenn Greenwald's statement that the revelations will continue. Some think the intrusion at the Guardian and the detention of David Miranda were ham-fisted attempts to get some idea of what information was out there.
    The Miranda incident and the intrusion at the Guardian are bizarre. I cannot make sense of them except that they seem to have been attempts by the UK government to intimidate people and nothing more.

    If you want to know what Greenwald has, why detain Miranda? Miranda had very little to do with this incident. His involvement has mostly been that he has a relationship with one of the reporters to whom information was leaked. And yet, he was detained for nine hours, the maximum time allowed by the law under which he was detained. He was detained under the Terrorism Act, even though he was not accused of terrorism. The point seems to have been the detention itself, not the accomplishment of anything useful.


    The invasion of the Guardian's offices was similarly bizarre.

    It resulted in one of the stranger episodes in the history of digital-age journalism. On Saturday 20 July, in a deserted basement of the Guardian's King's Cross offices, a senior editor and a Guardian computer expert used angle grinders and other tools to pulverise the hard drives and memory chips on which the encrypted files had been stored.

    As they worked they were watched by technicians from Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) who took notes and photographs, but who left empty-handed.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...stroyed-london

    Smashing the hard drives hardly destroys evidence in the digital age. It merely destroys one copy of the evidence. The Guardian's editor even informed the GCHQ people that other copies of the data existed "outside the country" and that other parties had been given the same data. They did not seem concerned by this, nor did the G-men ask for a copy of the data. Again, the point seems to have been the symbolic destruction of the computer drives, and not the accomplishment of anything useful. They've been watching too many ancient James Cagney movies.

    Snowden made fun of the incident on his Twitter account today.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Snowden.png  

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    This is true. Remarkably, the NSA still doesn't know what was taken.

    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_n...ok-sources-say




    The Miranda incident and the intrusion at the Guardian are bizarre. I cannot make sense of them except that they seem to have been attempts by the UK government to intimidate people and nothing more.

    If you want to know what Greenwald has, why detain Miranda? Miranda had very little to do with this incident. His involvement has mostly been that he has a relationship with one of the reporters to whom information was leaked. And yet, he was detained for nine hours, the maximum time allowed by the law under which he was detained. He was detained under the Terrorism Act, even though he was not accused of terrorism. The point seems to have been the detention itself, not the accomplishment of anything useful.


    The invasion of the Guardian's offices was similarly bizarre.




    Smashing the hard drives hardly destroys evidence in the digital age. It merely destroys one copy of the evidence. The Guardian's editor even informed the GCHQ people that other copies of the data existed "outside the country" and that other parties had been given the same data. They did not seem concerned by this, nor did the G-men ask for a copy of the data. Again, the point seems to have been the symbolic destruction of the computer drives, and not the accomplishment of anything useful. They've been watching too many ancient James Cagney movies.

    Snowden made fun of the incident on his Twitter account today.

    That's pretty much my take as well. But why the UK would engage in such sophomoric intimidation games is a puzzle.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's pretty much my take as well. But why the UK would engage in such sophomoric intimidation games is a puzzle.
    The police action was moronic....we can be sure that the UK security authorities did not initiate this action without authorisation from the very top of the power pyramid. David Cameron is conveniently on holiday....thus will not be taking questions....and parliament is on Summer recess.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    This is true. Remarkably, the NSA still doesn't know what was taken.





    they seem to have been attempts by the UK government to intimidate people and nothing more.






    The Guardian's editor even informed the GCHQ people that other copies of the data existed "outside the country" and that other parties had been given the same data.
    All noteworthy observations

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    NOTE:

    The Twitter account @EJosephSnowden is generally recognized as FAKE.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Question:

    If the NSA has the tight controls it says WHY don't they know what Snowden took?

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    This is true. Remarkably, the NSA still doesn't know what was taken.

    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_n...ok-sources-say

    The Miranda incident and the intrusion at the Guardian are bizarre. I cannot make sense of them except that they seem to have been attempts by the UK government to intimidate people and nothing more.

    If you want to know what Greenwald has, why detain Miranda? Miranda had very little to do with this incident. His involvement has mostly been that he has a relationship with one of the reporters to whom information was leaked. And yet, he was detained for nine hours, the maximum time allowed by the law under which he was detained. He was detained under the Terrorism Act, even though he was not accused of terrorism. The point seems to have been the detention itself, not the accomplishment of anything useful.

    The invasion of the Guardian's offices was similarly bizarre.

    Smashing the hard drives hardly destroys evidence in the digital age. It merely destroys one copy of the evidence. The Guardian's editor even informed the GCHQ people that other copies of the data existed "outside the country" and that other parties had been given the same data. They did not seem concerned by this, nor did the G-men ask for a copy of the data. Again, the point seems to have been the symbolic destruction of the computer drives, and not the accomplishment of anything useful. They've been watching too many ancient James Cagney movies.

    Snowden made fun of the incident on his Twitter account today.

    The Miranda detention is simple. Greenwald has already acknowledged that Miranda was carrying information and files about the NSA between Poitras and Greenwald. The Guardian has admitted to pay for his trip. I'm sure the British Government knew this and detained him to regain the stolen material he was carrying. It's the same with the information the Guardian had in their computers. The government gave them a choice to either destroy the data or be taken to court. The Guardian decided to (and had their own staff) destroy the hard drives in the computers. Not quite as sinister as government agents destroying computers in the basement.

    These two episodes were done, despite the information that the data exists in other places, for the simple fact that the London Guardian headquarters and detaining Miranda at Heathrow were within the jurisdiction of the British government and places like the Guardian's offices in New York are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Question:

    If the NSA has the tight controls it says WHY don't they know what Snowden took?
    Because as they have stated several times and as the documents that have leaked have shown, their production databases (XKeyScore, PRISM, etc.) are separately maintained and controlled systems with different user access controls from their enterprise-wide intranet which hosts general information, presentations, etc. Snowden was also a system administrator with root access to the enterprise intranet, so he would have been able to erase or conceal any activities he performed there. That's why NSA has decided to get rid of 90% of their system administrators. I bet those people who have lost or are losing their jobs are hailing Snowden as a true patriot right now.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The Miranda detention is simple. Greenwald has already acknowledged that Miranda was carrying information and files about the NSA between Poitras and Greenwald.
    The material being ferried was between a journalist and a filmmaker doing a story on the NSA.

    Since when does making a film (or doing a story on an intelligence agency) constitute terrorist activity?

    And why does Britain care about a film about a US spy agency?

    Can you name any other example of a western country detaining a partner of a journalist because of a story he did?

    And if all they wanted was the information Miranda was carrying, why did they detain him for nine hours?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The Guardian has admitted to pay for his trip. I'm sure the British Government knew this and detained him to regain the stolen material he was carrying.
    What "stolen" material would that be?

    Was something stolen from Britain?

    This is a story about the NSA. Which, I believe, is not an institution of the British government.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    These two episodes were done, despite the information that the data exists in other places, for the simple fact that the London Guardian headquarters and detaining Miranda at Heathrow were within the jurisdiction of the British government and places like the Guardian's offices in New York are not.
    In other words, absolutely nothing was accomplished by the destruction of the hard drives at the Guardian, and the people who demanded this destruction fully understood how stupid this was.

    So, why did they do it, if they knew it was senseless?

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The material being ferried was between a journalist and a filmmaker doing a story on the NSA.

    Since when does making a film (or doing a story on an intelligence agency) constitute terrorist activity?
    The government was acting on behalf of the NSA, I guess. That makes everything okay -- even breaking the law.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The government was acting on behalf of the NSA, I guess. That makes everything okay -- even breaking the law.
    That's one of the remarkable things here.

    Cameron is Obama's poodle.

    I've never understood why European nations are so subservient to the USA. We can just order them to do whatever we want, and they always comply. They have no spines. The American government is the world's government.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    That's one of the remarkable things here.

    Cameron is Obama's poodle.

    I've never understood why European nations are so subservient to the USA. We can just order them to do whatever we want, and they always comply. They have no spines. The American government is the world's government.
    Subservient, no....over cooperative, yes.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Released today:

    October 3, 2011 FISC Opinion Holding NSA Surveillance Unconstitutional
    https://www.eff.org/document/october...constitutional (PDF) (Note footnote 14)

    A month after the FISA court learned of the program in 2011 and ruled it unconstitutional, the NSA revised its collection procedures to segregate the transactions most likely to contain the communications of Americans. In 2012, the agency also purged the domestic communications that it had collected.
    ...
    In addition to the October 2011 court order, U.S. intelligence officials on Wednesday declassified a follow-up order about the NSAís revised collection methods.
    (I do not yet have a copy of this order.)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...4cd_story.html

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    The USG website created pursuant to Obama's directive is IC on the Record.

    The documents released today are at http://icontherecord.tumblr.com/post...nity-documents

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    The October 31, 2011 Opinion interpreted:

    http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/21/th...know-nsa-was-c

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The October 31, 2011 Opinion interpreted:

    http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/21/th...know-nsa-was-c
    So I spent the better part of the evening reading through all of the opinions and I will say that it is necessary to actually read the opinions in order to get the full story. They reveal the technical breadth of the undertakings of the NSA and the difficulty they face identifying information before it is ingested into their systems for processing. It also goes into great detail about the court's legal reasoning and where the NSA was found to be in compliance and was found to be deficient (solely in their storage and minimization procedures.)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Released today:

    October 3, 2011 FISC Opinion Holding NSA Surveillance Unconstitutional

    https://www.eff.org/document/october...constitutional (PDF) (Note footnote 14)

    Thanks for that, palbert.

    This is consistent with the information that has been coming out since the Snowden data first became public.

    It is interesting, however, that the FISA court ruled the NSA's activity unconstitutional in 2011. It is highly likely that the NSA has simply ignored that ruling and gone on with its unconstitutional activity over the past two years. The NSA has no supervision, so there is no one to enforce the court's ruling.

    Let's hope Congress corrects this, and soon.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The material being ferried was between a journalist and a filmmaker doing a story on the NSA.

    Since when does making a film (or doing a story on an intelligence agency) constitute terrorist activity?

    And why does Britain care about a film about a US spy agency?
    She's not just a filmmaker doing a film and he's not just a journalist doing a story. These are the two people who Edward Snowden turned over thousands of files stolen from the US to. Many of those files, as Greenwald himself has stated, contain information on Britain and their intelligence. He has stated before that he has held back many files that would be too damaging to both countries (which he has now said he is going to publish in a revenge style attack no really keeping with his "responsible release" policy.)

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    What "stolen" material would that be?

    Was something stolen from Britain?

    This is a story about the NSA. Which, I believe, is not an institution of the British government.
    Information stolen by Snowden from the NSA. There is material in there, as stated by Greenwald, that would be damaging to the UK. Thus, the UK has an interest is obtaining said materials. The UK doesn't need to have something stolen from it in order to attempt to recover said stolen material and prevent it being spread. If someone stole a piece of art from the Louvre, would Britain not be expected to attempt to recover it if they knew someone carrying it was passing through their country?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, absolutely nothing was accomplished by the destruction of the hard drives at the Guardian, and the people who demanded this destruction fully understood how stupid this was.

    So, why did they do it, if they knew it was senseless?
    Legal compliance. If the information isn't in Britain, then they don't need to worry about it.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Thanks for that, palbert.

    This is consistent with the information that has been coming out since the Snowden data first became public.

    It is interesting, however, that the FISA court ruled the NSA's activity unconstitutional in 2011. It is highly likely that the NSA has simply ignored that ruling and gone on with its unconstitutional activity over the past two years. The NSA has no supervision, so there is no one to enforce the court's ruling.

    Let's hope Congress corrects this, and soon.
    Have anything that supports your "highly likely" claim? The court seemed to have been satisfied in its ruling right after this one that the NSA had comported with the law with its updated storage and minimization procedures as well as after 2011 with their destruction of said data and in renewing these authorities since.

    And the NSA has the same supervision that every other entity that has ever fallen under the purview of the law or a court ruling has - various departments of the executive branch as well as the additional oversight of the Intelligence Committees in Congress.

    We'll see what Congress does. I'm better it's little to nothing. They're the ones who wrote the laws to begin with. Again, as I said before, go read the actual court documents and you'll see throughout where the relevant laws and statues are referenced and the legal framework with which these programs are developed and run.

  48. #248
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Have anything that supports your "highly likely" claim?
    The fact that the abuses have continued over the past two years (after the court's ruling), the fact that even the Senate Intelligence Committee says it does not know what is going on at NSA, and the fact that the FISA court recently felt compelled to announce it is incapable of monitoring or supervising the NSA's activities.

    All of those things make it highly likely that the FISA court is just being ignored by the NSA.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The court seemed to have been satisfied in its ruling right after this one that the NSA had comported with the law with its updated storage and minimization procedures as well as after 2011 with their destruction of said data and in renewing these authorities since.
    If the court is so satisfied, why did it feel compelled to point out that it does not and cannot supervise the NSA's activity?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And the NSA has the same supervision that every other entity that has ever fallen under the purview of the law or a court ruling has - various departments of the executive branch as well as the additional oversight of the Intelligence Committees in Congress.
    I don't think it is routine for the supervisory bodies of agencies of the US government to have to read in The Washington Post what is going on in the agencies under their supervision.

    I don't think it is routine for agencies of the US government to attempt to hide their activities from their supervisory authorities.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    We'll see what Congress does. I'm better it's little to nothing.
    That would not be surprising. Doing nothing is what Congress does best.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, as I said before, go read the actual court documents and you'll see throughout where the relevant laws and statues are referenced and the legal framework with which these programs are developed and run.
    The "legal framework" under which these programs were developed and are run is a big part of what is in question here. These are GWB era programs developed when people were being imprisoned indefinitely without trial or charges, when wiretapping and surveillance were conducted on Americans without court orders, when secret prisons were established which did not answer to any legal authority, and when prisoners were routinely being tortured.

    All of those things were implemented by the Bush administration under claims that they were "perfectly legal" (with justifications for each written by the attorney general), even though they are all clearly prohibited by American law. That's the "framework" of reference here.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The UK doesn't need to have something stolen from it in order to attempt to recover said stolen material and prevent it being spread. If someone stole a piece of art from the Louvre, would Britain not be expected to attempt to recover it if they knew someone carrying it was passing through their country?
    Not if it was just a copy of some piece or art from the Louvre.

    Your posts do not seem to recognize the nature of the digital age in which we live.

    This was not an attempt to "recover" something. The material in question was never physically removed from anybody. It was never actually "lost" by anyone. If Britain ever had this information, they still have it. They don't need it back.

    I can understand if the authorities wanted to try to prevent classified information from being delivered to a specific person, but that was not what was going on here. You can't stop the internet by holding someone at the airport for nine hours. You do not detain a person for nine hours just to seize his computers and telephones. This was intimidation. Britain is trying to frighten its press into silence, most likely on behalf of the USA.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Legal compliance. If the information isn't in Britain, then they don't need to worry about it.
    In other words, the British government does not care if its actions are futile. They pay their agents to do nothing, for no particular reason, because that is what they're supposed to do. I want that job!

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, the British government does not care if its actions are futile. They pay their agents to do nothing, for no particular reason, because that is what they're supposed to do. I want that job!
    The agents were from GCHQ.....the loving cousin to the NSA.

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