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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    I said this in another thread, but it also applies here. The cables, switching equipment, and other parts of the system belong to a third party, either the phone company, cable company, or in some cases the government. Every time you send an email or dial a telephone, the instant the communication passes through the walls of your residence or place of business it is on a third parties network. When you give something to a third party, how do you expect to maintain your right to privacy? Which is false anyway. The only real place your right to privacy can be expected is in your face to face communications. Remember, the telephone company started out with live operators, you picked up the phone, told the operator who you wanted to call, and she took your phone line on her switch board and plugged it in to the phone line of the person you wanted to call. And if she wasn't the local gossip, she hung her head set up and did not listen in on your conversation. Where in the transition from the operator to party lines to electronic switching to computerized switching did anyone come up with the idea that their phone calls were privileged communications? Chances are likely that someone has been listening in on your calls from day one. In legal terms, the only privileged communication is between you and your attorney, everything else is obtainable with a warrant. And for all we know, they do in fact have the warrants.
    Well we know they have warrants for the metadata. Given the material I've seen released from the government about their legal interpretations and operation of these programs, they're darn skippy going to be getting a warrant if they're going to be collecting content of communications in the US.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    When you give something to a third party, how do you expect to maintain your right to privacy? Which is false anyway.
    The same way as when I give an envelope to UPS or DHL I expect them not to open it and read it. Or when I put an envelope in a mailbox I expect employees of the national post office not to open it and read it.

    If the government routinely, automatically, opened our mail like that, we would instantly recognize there was something wrong with them and we'd demand answers. There is absolutely no difference just because we send modern messages in electronic envelopes, and the technology makes it easier for the government to spy on its own people. It's still wrong.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The same way as when I give an envelope to UPS or DHL I expect them not to open it and read it. Or when I put an envelope in a mailbox I expect employees of the national post office not to open it and read it.

    If the government routinely, automatically, opened our mail like that, we would instantly recognize there was something wrong with them and we'd demand answers. There is absolutely no difference just because we send modern messages in electronic envelopes, and the technology makes it easier for the government to spy on its own people. It's still wrong.
    Actually, at least in the US, mail tampering laws only apply to the USPS. Private companies like UPS, DHL, and FedEx don't have similar laws they are under. And with a warrant, the government can go through your mail as well.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Actually, at least in the US, mail tampering laws only apply to the USPS. Private companies like UPS, DHL, and FedEx don't have similar laws they are under.
    Do you pay for packages you send to be opened, or do you expect the contents to remain private?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Do you pay for packages you send to be opened, or do you expect the contents to remain private?
    I have the expectation that it can be opened, lost, given to someone else, damaged, mishandled, or delivered to me in good condition.

    Per UPS's ground delivery general terms and conditions (Link here):

    UPS reserves the right to open and inspect any package tendered to it for transportation.
    FedEx's T&Cs: http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guid...und/index.html
    DHL's T&Cs: http://www.dhl-usa.com/en/express/sh...onditions.html

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    It is like a secret. You tell the guy that told you in confidence, that you will not tell anyone. But when you tell the third guy, about the first guy's embarrassing rash, you cannot expect him to uphold the confidence that you promised the first guy.

    The phone company, the cable company, UPS, Fed Ex, ad the rest of them are not bound by any obligation to keep your contents secured. They will xray them for explosives, they will open them and look inside the box. They will back over your package, deliver it to you with tire tracks across the box, and then tell you that it was like that when they received it. I will repeat this again, if you want to keep your conversations and correspondence private, talk to the person face to face, hand deliver the envelope. For the most part, you should have no expectation of privacy in communications. The only privilege you have as far as your communications not being opened is the United States Post Office. The phone company is not the government, the cable company is not the government, UPS is not the government, DHL is not the government. They have no obligation to your imagined right to privacy. The phone company was started by Alexander Graham Bell, there is a reason that it was called "Ma Bell" for years. It is not the government. Your expectation of privacy is not founded in case law. Your expectation of constitutional protection, in the real world, does not extend to businesses.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I understand how internet routing works. I also understand that when someone says ALL internet traffic (ALL being in all caps), that they generally mean all traffic, not just domestic traffic. Most domestic traffic within countries is already routed domestically. However, most international traffic is routed through the US ultimately because that's where the backbones are. The infrastructure is already in place and to build out new infrastructure would cost LOTS of money and time and most countries just aren't willing to invest that. I am willing to bet that most Europeans would rather hold on to the benefits they derive from government than give up some of those to finance new internet routing infrastructure. And yes, to build out a new infrastructure would require heavy government investment since there is currently no financial benefit to private companies to invest such large sums of money for little return.


    I would argue that this was happening to begin with. As the report on which this article is based states "Of the $13.5 billion in investments that cloud computing service providers made in 2011, $5.6
    billion came from companies outside North America." Countries were already trying to play catch up and would have continued to do so with or without information on NSA activities. I think stating that it's the fault of the NSA is trying to lay the economic consequences of an event that was inevitable and already taking place at the feet of the NSA.
    To a degree yes but the NSA scare adds fuel to the fire that they can use to promote the 'security' of there services.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    It is like a secret. You tell the guy that told you in confidence, that you will not tell anyone. But when you tell the third guy, about the first guy's embarrassing rash, you cannot expect him to uphold the confidence that you promised the first guy.

    The phone company, the cable company, UPS, Fed Ex, ad the rest of them are not bound by any obligation to keep your contents secured. They will xray them for explosives, they will open them and look inside the box. They will back over your package, deliver it to you with tire tracks across the box, and then tell you that it was like that when they received it. I will repeat this again, if you want to keep your conversations and correspondence private, talk to the person face to face, hand deliver the envelope. For the most part, you should have no expectation of privacy in communications. The only privilege you have as far as your communications not being opened is the United States Post Office. The phone company is not the government, the cable company is not the government, UPS is not the government, DHL is not the government. They have no obligation to your imagined right to privacy. The phone company was started by Alexander Graham Bell, there is a reason that it was called "Ma Bell" for years. It is not the government. Your expectation of privacy is not founded in case law. Your expectation of constitutional protection, in the real world, does not extend to businesses.
    The government is prevented from tampering with your mail. This is absolutely not a privilege that should command your gratitude, but one of the fundamental characteristics of an acceptable balance between those in office and the rest of the citizens, that we are all entitled to demand. The same government can't claim to have any integrity simply by hiring or obliging private companies to do the snooping, on the pretext that privacy doesn't apply there.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    One hop, two hops, three hops a dollar
    All for further cover-up stand up and holler

    Obama, in a stunning gesture to quiet surveillance critics, has announced that James Clapper - he of being "least untruthful" to Congress renown - will lead an "independent" review of surveillance issues.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3748431.html

    Whatever.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Obama changed his mind, or rather, someone did it for him.

    The White House said on Tuesday that Director of National Intelligence (DNI) James Clapper won't choose members of a special committee tasked with reviewing high-tech U.S. spying programs and ferreting out abuses, contradicting earlier statements from both Clapper and President Barack Obama. Clapper also won't run the study, officials said.
    http://news.yahoo.com/-dni-clapper-w...194607489.html

    Instead, Clapper will "facilitate," which sounds suspiciously like doing the same thing as helping Congress out. We know how well that worked.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    One hop, two hops, three hops a dollar
    All for further cover-up stand up and holler
    And it's all still just metadata (which the government could legally use all of it if it wanted to) until it is turned over to the FBI and they pursue the legal means to identify callers. The article also draws an inaccurate parallel to friend on Facebook. Whereas a person may have hundreds of friends on Facebook with whom they rarely if ever communicate, they will have far fewer people they actually talk to on the phone. So the volume of information that they try to tie in with the Facebook parallel is much smaller than were someone to three hop through your Facebook friends list.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Obama, in a stunning gesture to quiet surveillance critics, has announced that James Clapper - he of being "least untruthful" to Congress renown - will lead an "independent" review of surveillance issues.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3748431.html

    Whatever.
    Obama said he would "establish" a group, not "lead" the group. The DNI is the government official charged with the operations of the intelligence community. Someone in the government must establish (or if you will, sponsor) a group of non-government experts to review classified government information. It's a like in a private company. The CEO doesn't personally establish and run an independent review of the company's finances - the CFO handles that.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Obama changed his mind, or rather, someone did it for him.

    http://news.yahoo.com/-dni-clapper-w...194607489.html

    Instead, Clapper will "facilitate," which sounds suspiciously like doing the same thing as helping Congress out. We know how well that worked.
    I think the article clearly states the obvious here for anyone who can read and comprehend:

    “The panel members are being selected by the White House, in consultation with the Intelligence Community,” National Security Council spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden said in a statement emailed to Yahoo News.

    “The Review Group will be made up of independent outside experts. The DNI’s role is one of facilitation, and the Group is not under the direction of or led by the DNI,” Hayden said. “The members require security clearances and access to classified information so they need to be administratively connected to the government, and the DNI’s office is the right place to provide that. The review process and findings will be the Group’s.”
    President Barack Obama and Clapper each issued separate memos on Monday saying that the DNI would set up the group. But neither explicitly said who would choose its members.
    Now, it is explicitly stated that the White House would choose the members. End of story, end of new conspiracy.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Tuesday's clarification of Clapper's role is an obvious walk-back from Friday's disingenuous announcement.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Tuesday's clarification of Clapper's role is an obvious walk-back from Friday's disingenuous announcement.
    Or an obvious clarification of his role for those who find fault in everything Obama does and a conspiracy around every turn. Either way, I don't see how it's disingenuous when the fact that a review board being set up is not in question. We need to get the fall TV seasons started up here soon so people will have something to occupy their time instead of making up "monsters under the bed, government in the closet" scenarios to scare everyone.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Tiger fan you are working way too hard for something you think is so trivial.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Tiger fan you are working way too hard for something you think is so trivial.
    It's always informative to hear from the true believers.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I thought this was an interesting read regarding the potential legality of it all.

    This “to be sure” is one for the ages. Far from authorizing the warrantless fishing expeditions into millions of records, Congress in amending Section 215 meant explicitly to forbid what the Justice Department now seeks to justify. As the Electronic Privacy Information Center notes in a brief filed last week with the Supreme Court, both Congressional supporters and opponents of Section 215 explicitly interpreted the “relevance” language to limit bulk collection of data, not to permit it. On July 17, during a House judiciary committee hearing, Representative James Sensenbrenner, the author of section 215, said that Congress amended the law in 2006 to impose the relevance requirement in “an attempt to limit what the intelligence community could be able to get pursuant to Section 215.” And during the debate over the 2006 amendments, Sen. Ron Wyden and others stressed that the relevance standard would address “concerns about government ‘fishing expeditions.’”
    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...t-only-problem

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    A penetrating analysis of the data available to NSA and why the search parameters can be narrowed to a very small portion of total internet traffic.

    The NSA claims it 'touches' only 1.6% of internet traffic – doesn't sound a lot. In fact, that's practically everything that matters
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...c-surveillance

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    I thought this was an interesting read regarding the potential legality of it all.



    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...t-only-problem
    Thanks for posting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    A penetrating analysis of the data available to NSA and why the search parameters can be narrowed to a very small portion of total internet traffic.



    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...c-surveillance
    Thanks for a good read

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    One hop, two hops, three hops a dollar
    All for further cover-up stand up and holler
    They are half way to Kevin Bacon
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    I thought this was an interesting read regarding the potential legality of it all.



    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...t-only-problem
    This article is very enlightening and thought provoking. Imagine if a right wing administration said it was okay to do bulk data collections on homosexuals because somewhere in all that data "there may be individual data elements that are, in fact, relevant" to finding a pedophile? Its okay its only metadata after all.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    I thought this was an interesting read regarding the potential legality of it all.

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...t-only-problem
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    This article is very enlightening and thought provoking. Imagine if a right wing administration said it was okay to do bulk data collections on homosexuals because somewhere in all that data "there may be individual data elements that are, in fact, relevant" to finding a pedophile? Its okay its only metadata after all.
    First off, for the pedophile argument, the 215 authorities have been granted for terrorism related investigations, not for finding pedophiles. Second, Congress was sent information on the bulk collection programs in 2009 and 2011. They could have easily clarified their stance and specified exactly what could and couldn't be collected and when. They didn't. So the proof isn't there that Congress didn't intend for this to be allowed. If a know terrorist is calling someone in the US, then the entire set of calls made into the US is relevant to finding out who that person called. If the person who was called in the US is a terrorist or consorting with terrorists, then the entire subset of calls made from that person within the US is relevant to the investigation of who that person called. This point, made in contrast with the bulk collection of library or medical records, is called out here. The white paper makes sense if you read it instead of letting a news organization do the reading and interpretation for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    A penetrating analysis of the data available to NSA and why the search parameters can be narrowed to a very small portion of total internet traffic.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...c-surveillance
    Is that really penetrating? Because it doesn't seem so. They can't even seem to define what "touch the data" means. They address metadata, yet this program they're doing their "in-depth" analysis on is actually the FAA 702 program, not the 215 program. Additionally, the 702 program for internet data is used against foreign targets, not domestic targets, which the NSA has authorization to do without a court order, which they get anyway. This is explained in more depth here.

    Since they can't define what "touch" means, it would be more relevant to deal with the data that NSA analysts actually look at, which is 0.00004% of daily internet data, or 0.073PB of information (or 73 terrabytes of information.) The information for that is also available in the above link on page 6.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Well, we knew this was coming ...

    NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...125_story.html (an exhaustive article)

    And, FISC oversight is somewhat limited:

    The leader of the secret court that is supposed to provide critical oversight of the government’s vast spying programs said that its ability to do so is limited and that it must trust the government to report when it improperly spies on Americans.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...125_story.html

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Well, we knew this was coming ...



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...125_story.html (an exhaustive article)

    And, FISC oversight is somewhat limited:



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...125_story.html
    Yeah we did know it was coming since I read it yesterday (along with the supporting documentation they provided.) And I'll tell you that the supporting documents don't at all paint the picture that the WP paints in their "interpretation" of the attached documents. For instance, the charts on pages 5 and 6 of the reports clearly show that the VAST majority of these incidents were from "roamer" situations where the NSA was targeting a valid foreign target that then popped up in the US, keeping in mind that EO 12333 prevents the NSA from targeting people who are in the US, regardless of whether they are a citizen or a foreigner. They also commented in the article about numerous serious infractions, but reading through the report there were only 2 significant issues of non-compliance mentioned - data found in a database on development machines (I'm assuming where they develop the tools and run data through to test them) and an incident of a US green card holder not being de-tasked when it was found he was a green card holder. Hardly the surveillance of millions of Americans. While the report refers to various appendices for complete detail on these cases, the Washington Post has not provided the appendices for us to read.

    I also noted the article seemed to play loose with the information given. I'm assuming this is because they don't expect most readers to actually read the documentation. For instance, they used the following quote in the article as support of their claim that this information is more detailed than what is given to the intelligence agencies:

    The documents, provided earlier this summer to The Washington Post by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, include a level of detail and analysis that is not routinely shared with Congress or the special court that oversees surveillance. In one of the documents, agency personnel are instructed to remove details and substitute more generic language in reports to the Justice Department and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.
    As you can see, they are making a claim that this is more detail than Congress receives by summarizing this training document as telling people to cut out details, when if you read the document, you'll see that the information is not classified in the reporting tool so they tell them to leave out extraneous information to seemingly avoid putting classified information in there. They also state this later in the article on page 3:

    Members of Congress may read the unredacted documents, but only in a special secure room, and they are not allowed to take notes. Fewer than 10 percent of lawmakers employ a staff member who has the security clearance to read the reports and provide advice about their meaning and significance.
    I think that is also telling that certain members of Congress like to complain they're not kept informed, yet they don't even take the steps of getting their staff cleared to view this information they want to see.

    In the very next quote, they state, without providing any supporting documentation at all:

    In one instance, the NSA decided that it need not report the unintended surveillance of Americans. A notable example in 2008 was the interception of a “large number” of calls placed from Washington when a programming error confused the U.S. area code 202 for 20, the international dialing code for Egypt, according to a “quality assurance” review that was not distributed to the NSA’s oversight staff.
    Yet in a different article by the WP, they expand on the fact that metadata only was collected and not the "interception of calls", which metadata collection was authorized by the court, so it was indeed not something that had to be reported as an infraction of the rules.

    Here's another little jewel they hide away in the article:

    The documents provided by Snowden offer only glimpses of those questions. Some reports make clear that an unauthorized search produced no records. But a single “incident” in February 2012 involved the unlawful retention of 3,032 files that the surveillance court had ordered the NSA to destroy, according to the May 2012 audit. Each file contained an undisclosed number of telephone call records.
    So even though an incident among the "thousands of violations of privacy rules" yields no results (indicating it would seem that data is actually not collected on Americans), it's still counted as an incident. So while the number may be 2,200 (keeping in mind this is a compliance report, meaning it encompasses violations of anything, including internal NSA rules or standard procedures), it would seem that what the NSA considers an incident isn't what normal people would consider an incident (i.e. they fat fingered a phone number and heard all of my phone conversations.) Additionally, incidents like the one described at the end, where old data was found on development servers, are fairly common across any enterprise (old data left on development machines) and, while it should be remedied immediately upon discovery, isn't some insidious plot to collect and retain data on people.

    I especially love this comment though:

    The NSA uses the term “incidental” when it sweeps up the records of an American while targeting a foreigner or a U.S. person who is believed to be involved in terrorism. Official guidelines for NSA personnel say that kind of incident, pervasive under current practices, “does not constitute a . . . violation” and “does not have to be reported” to the NSA inspector general for inclusion in quarterly reports to Congress. Once added to its databases, absent other restrictions, the communications of Americans may be searched freely.
    If you read the "What's a violation" document, you'll see that incidental doesn't cover collecting records of an American, but instead covers collection of communications from a foreign target that contains information or is to/from a US person. In that case, the document states that the information concerning the US person should be removed and the foreign target should be the focus of the reporting. And it's not considered a violation because there are court approved minimization procedures in place for this exact purpose (they were leaked earlier, remember?) and so you're not violating a court order or policy because that exact situation is accounted for in the court order and policy. The last line is yet another example of WP's editorial contributions to make everything seem so malicious and that is actually a complete lie, given that the rest of the article and linked documentation is about NSA compliance reporting. They state earlier in the article that these reported violations can involve searches of US person data, yet then turn around and say the data can be searched freely. It's not the case that both can be true. You can either search freely or you can search and violate the regulations and laws.

    I like the quote at the end from NSA the best though:

    “I realize you can read those words a certain way,” said the high-ranking NSA official who spoke with White House authority, but the instructions were not intended to withhold information from auditors. “Think of a book of individual recipes,” he said. Each target “has a short, concise description,” but that is “not a substitute for the full recipe that follows, which our overseers also have access to.”
    While the point being made is that the WP obtained the summary document without the details document that went with it which Congress does get, it also basically sums up the WP's summary of the documents and the exclusion of other documents they claim to have that they don't provide us. They provide us concise summaries of what they view to be important (usually mixed in with their own opinions), but don't provide us the full recipe to draw our own conclusions.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    @tigerfan - You mount a defense that seems beyond the ken of the Administration.

    One abiding question is why Obama's statements show him to be so clueless; at the least he should be aware that he speaks from quicksand. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...-as-well.shtml

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    @tigerfan - You mount a defense that seems beyond the ken of the Administration.

    One abiding question is why Obama's statements show him to be so clueless; at the least he should be aware that he speaks from quicksand. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...-as-well.shtml
    Quicksand is an appropriate analogy when considering that the entire defence of the NSAs snooping activities on United States citizens is floundering in reams of words, filled with empty rhetoric attempting to conceal -without success - the desperate attempts of the NSAs apologists to divert attention to other much less contentious issues......

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    @tigerfan - You mount a defense that seems beyond the ken of the Administration.
    The administration's arguments crumble further every week.

    This week, we learned that an internal audit of the NSA shows that it violates court orders and its own policies several thousand times every year.

    There doesn't appear to be any real supervision of that agency.


    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    One abiding question is why Obama's statements show him to be so clueless; at the least he should be aware that he speaks from quicksand. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...-as-well.shtml
    Obama has fumbled this spy scandal miserably and completely. He seems reluctant to provide the leadership that the spy agencies obviously require pretty desperately. He really does not seem to understand the situation - or why it is so important - in the least. Amazing cluelessness for a self-proclaimed professor of constitutional law.

    What an embarrassment for the administration.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    For those unable to follow all of the articles being published concerning these latest NSA revelations, the Electronic Frontier Foundation has published the key takeaways.

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/0...violations-nsa

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    "Tip of the iceberg":

    "The executive branch has now confirmed that the rules, regulations and court-imposed standards for protecting the privacy of Americans have been violated thousands of times each year. We have previously said that the violations of these laws and rules were more serious than had been acknowledged, and we believe Americans should know that this confirmation is just the tip of a larger iceberg.
    Looks like more to come.

    It is time for some congressperson to get some cojones and take to the Floor of one of the Chambers.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    @tigerfan - You mount a defense that seems beyond the ken of the Administration.

    One abiding question is why Obama's statements show him to be so clueless; at the least he should be aware that he speaks from quicksand. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...-as-well.shtml
    I get my information straight from the reports that are published and not from any news outlet's interpretation of what they mean. For instance, your link there to Tech Dirt already has two crossed out retractions in their article because they didn't "interpret" the information correctly. It hearkens back to my point that these news articles have a vested interest in making these stories as sensational as possible to either a) forward a position they have already on the situation or b) to entice readership and keep a news story going.

    One thing I find funny is that the Washington Post didn't publish the appendices to the document they referenced. In the document, it clearly states details about these compliance violations are in the appendices, yet those were not provided to readers. Why is that? This seems to be a trend that news outlets will publish certain documents, not in their entirety, that seem to contain summaries that support their claims, yet omit the portions that provide details that very well could explain in more detail said claims and actually prove they aren't what is being surmised. Either way, I want to be able to read for myself this information instead on relying on the Washington Post or any other news outlet to interpret it for me.

    I also take exception to the fact that many outlets rerunning recaps of this story pass this off as "thousand of violations of Americans' privacy" when the numbers in the actual report don't tell that at all. Of the 2,776 incidents reported, 1,904 of them were "roamers" compliance issues where the US was targeting valid foreign targets when they entered into the US. So in 69% of the cases, Americans weren't even involved in the compliance issues, which shoots those claims right out of the water. Additionally, there is no context in which these numbers are provided. The appendices of the report were not provided by the WP. There are no aggregate numbers to compare to. If 3,000 activities happened and 2,776 of those were compliance incidents, there is a cause to worry. If 1 million activities happened and 2,776 of those were compliance incidents, then that is a completely different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Quicksand is an appropriate analogy when considering that the entire defence of the NSAs snooping activities on United States citizens is floundering in reams of words, filled with empty rhetoric attempting to conceal -without success - the desperate attempts of the NSAs apologists to divert attention to other much less contentious issues......
    You keep calling them snooping activities on US citizens and have yet to show that they are. What you describe is actually the position you've taken (empty rhetoric, no facts to back up your claims, etc.). There is plenty of information in these reports if you take the time to read them. There would be plenty more if these news organizations released the full set of supporting documents instead of those that, when taken out of context in their articles, support their position.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    For those unable to follow all of the articles being published concerning these latest NSA revelations, the Electronic Frontier Foundation has published the key takeaways.

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/0...violations-nsa
    Going back to what I said earlier, this article starts off in the first paragraph saying that these reports show thousands of violations of American's privacy, when in fact they actually don't show that. They show 2200 compliance violations which could include anything from fat fingering a search to maintaining surveillance on a valid foreign target once they enter the US. It also includes all non-human based compliance issues as well (such as the requirement to keep certain data in a certain database and that data actually being put by a script into another database.)

    They also claim that there is a secret court with no power to stop them, which is also not true since the FISC has all of the power to stop them. The article they referenced, which was actually itself misleading, said that the court didn't have the resources to monitor on a day-to-day basis what the NSA does. The part of that article I found most appalling was the insertion of the WP's own verbage into a quote to make it sound as if the chief judge of the FISC was directing his comments only towards the NSA and the FISC, when in reality, he was speaking of all courts. The quote was:

    “The FISC is forced to rely upon the accuracy of the information that is provided to the Court,” its chief, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, said in a written statement to The Washington Post. “The FISC does not have the capacity to investigate issues of noncompliance, and in that respect the FISC is in the same position as any other court when it comes to enforcing [government] compliance with its orders.”
    Notice the bolded word that the WP put in themselves. What the judge described was what every court faces with dealing with the enforcement of any of their orders. When a judge imposes a sentence on someone, the court doesn't have the resources to enforce said sentence. They rely on the justice system to do so. When a court imposes certain statutory or regulatory requirements on a person or group of people, they don't have the manpower to enforce and verify compliance so they rely on the various regulatory authorities to do so. And when the court orders NSA to follow certain procedures in a court order, they don't have the staff to stand there and watch them all day in everything they do. They order that NSA's compliance officers, along with their OGC and OIG and the Justice Department to monitor compliance and report any incidents. It's a very basic concept.

    The rest of their article claims that "the documents" make all of these claims, yet it's the actual Washington Post article they quote and not the information from the documents themselves, which is at best, deceptive journalism.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    For those unable to follow all of the articles being published concerning these latest NSA revelations, the Electronic Frontier Foundation has published the key takeaways.

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/0...violations-nsa
    Thanks for that.

    The EFF is probably the best source for legal considerations concerning the internet. That's a great summary of some of the latest information.

    Of interest is the FISA court's statement that it cannot and does not police the NSA. While that should be obvious, I don't think most people appreciate that our spy agencies are operating without any real outside supervision. Even the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is supposed to oversee the NSA, did not know about the NSA's internal audit. The committee had to get the audit from The Washington Post!

    That's beyond ridiculous.



    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    "Tip of the iceberg":

    Looks like more to come.
    The 2,776 violations during 2012 occurred at a single NSA facility (Ft. Meade, Maryland). There are undoubtedly many thousands more violations occurring every year, nationwide.



    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    It is time for some congressperson to get some cojones and take to the Floor of one of the Chambers.
    It is ridiculous to depend on an agency of any kind to regulate itself. As the NSA's own audit reveals, it has been lying to Congress about its own activities, and hiding from Congress its activity. Some sort of regulatory framework needs to be set up to keep these people under control.

    It is becoming quite clear that Ed Snowden has done this nation an enormous service. A rather large portion of our federal government has been out of control for some time now, and no one was allowed to point that out to us.

    Now, we need to do something about it.

  31. #181
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Thanks for that.

    The EFF is probably the best source for legal considerations concerning the internet. That's a great summary of some of the latest information.

    Of interest is the FISA court's statement that it cannot and does not police the NSA. While that should be obvious, I don't think most people appreciate that our spy agencies are operating without any real outside supervision. Even the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is supposed to oversee the NSA, did not know about the NSA's internal audit. The committee had to get the audit from The Washington Post!

    That's beyond ridiculous.
    Actually, the EFF is the WORST source for legal considerations concerning this topic, if for no other reason because they are clearly favoring one side. As stated before, their summary even misquotes and misattributes quotes to incorrect sources.

    And the FISC's statements was not that it doesn't hold NSA accountable. It's statement is that it has to rely on information provided by NSA in its enforcement because it doesn't have resources to have someone in every operational location at every operational hour of the day every operational day of the year. This is no different than any other court in this country enforcing any other ruling or requirement. That's exactly what the chief judge of the FISC said. Every court must rely on the information provided to it in regards to compliance with court orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The 2,776 violations during 2012 occurred at a single NSA facility (Ft. Meade, Maryland). There are undoubtedly many thousands more violations occurring every year, nationwide.
    Actually, I spoke to five friends I had and they said that report takes into account everything worldwide, since all of the data is reported back to Fort Meade to disseminate.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It is ridiculous to depend on an agency of any kind to regulate itself. As the NSA's own audit reveals, it has been lying to Congress about its own activities, and hiding from Congress its activity. Some sort of regulatory framework needs to be set up to keep these people under control.

    It is becoming quite clear that Ed Snowden has done this nation an enormous service. A rather large portion of our federal government has been out of control for some time now, and no one was allowed to point that out to us.

    Now, we need to do something about it.
    The NSA doesn't regulate itself. The NSA self-monitors and self-reports compliance issues. The FISC and Congress regulate the NSA via laws and court orders. And the NSA audit does not reveal it has been lying to Congress. The mere fact that the report exists shows that the NSA isn't lying to Congress about anything. It's just as easy to put out a report saying "oh we've made no mistakes and everything is great." I would still like to see the rest of the report that the WP decided to withhold that contains all of the details of these compliance violations. What are they hiding from us? I mean since they're not revealing everything they know, they must be up to something bad correct?

    And I would like to know exactly what you think the government is out of control on.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    http://news.yahoo.com/under-fire-u-s...000936926.html

    Looks like there are some reasonable explanations for the report. One thing I want to point out that almost all articles I have read on this have said as well as the government is that there is no evidence of any intentional or willful violations of the law. That seems to shoot holes in the idea that the NSA is willfully lying to anyone or is engaged in doing whatever they want to do.

    This article also says that NSA analysts make 20 million queries of intelligence databases every month, meaning that they make approximately 240 million queries a year. To have only 2700 compliance issues out of 240 million is absolutely amazing given the technical complexity and breadth of data they deal with. That's 0.000011% error. I think these guys are the real heroes, combing through this data trying to protect the people of this country and only having a 0.000011% rate of error.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post

    Actually, the EFF is the WORST source for legal considerations concerning this topic, if for no other reason because they are clearly favoring one side.
    Objective reporting that offers a much more complete picture favours the truth...a worthwhile contribution to a debate in which the lackeys of the NSA spend their time misrepresenting the truth with reams of words calculated to deceive and distract.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/under-fire-u-s...000936926.html

    One thing I want to point out that almost all articles I have read on this have said as well as the government is that there is no evidence of any intentional or willful violations of the law. That seems to shoot holes in the idea that the NSA is willfully lying to anyone or is engaged in doing whatever they want to do.

    Your comfort factor must soar when sourcing articles that confirm your preconceived bias that the NSA can and does no wrong....

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Objective reporting that offers a much more complete picture favours the truth...a worthwhile contribution to a debate in which the lackeys of the NSA spend their time misrepresenting the truth with reams of words calculated to deceive and distract.
    I definitely agree. And once you find some objective reporting, let me know. It's definitely not the EFF. Having a preconceived bias (as you'll be noting in your next post) is the very definition of NOT being objective.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Your comfort factor must soar when sourcing articles that confirm your preconceived bias that the NSA can and does no wrong....
    While that's not what the article says, I can definitely see we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black here. Just go ahead and replace "can and does no wrong" with "always does everything wrong" and we have your position.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I put about as much credence in their statement that they've done no wrong, as in the FBI track record of internally investigating something like 150 in-custody killings, and they've said that 100% of the killings were justified.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I put about as much credence in their statement that they've done no wrong, as in the FBI track record of internally investigating something like 150 in-custody killings, and they've said that 100% of the killings were justified.
    Ah! but there are those posting here who believe, and insist that all should believe everything that the NSA expounds.... is the truth.

    Fortunately, naivety is not infectious....

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Fortunately, naivety is not infectious....
    No but paranoia is.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    .... Actually, I spoke to five friends I had and they said that report takes into account everything worldwide, since all of the data is reported back to Fort Meade to disseminate.
    ....
    One hop.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    No but paranoia is.
    “Even a paranoid can have enemies.”
    --Henry Kissinger

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    No but paranoia is.
    Only when drinking from the NSAs fountain of "truth."

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Good thing there are enlightened people to share the Real Truth with us. Who needs facts when you have CONVICTION!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Good thing there are enlightened people to share the Real Truth with us. Who needs facts when you have CONVICTION!
    The "real truth" according to the NSAs apologists!!!!! Some truth...some deception.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Good thing there are enlightened people to share the Real Truth with us. Who needs facts when you have CONVICTION!
    It must be Real Truth if NSA's UK minions are using terrorism statutes to detain the partner of Glenn Greenwald for 9 hours and seize his belongings. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ained-heathrow

    Whichever edge of Hanlon's Razor you choose the NSA minions lose.

    Convictions will follow when the NSA is held to account.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Convictions will follow when the NSA is held to account.
    I doubt that either will occur.

    The NSAs pals in the UK are simply being good cousins.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I don't think calling people paranoid or tinfoil hats makes any sense any more. We were just shown that 90% of the stuff that people easily used to dismiss as paranoia, is, in fact, true.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    “This is a mournful discovery.
    1)Those who agree with you are insane
    2)Those who do not agree with you are in power.”
    Phillip K. Dick

    “Strange how paranoia can link up with reality now and then.”
    Phillip K. Dick

    “Paranoia is just the bastard child of fear and good sense." (Charlie)
    "Poor thing. Let's adopt it, give it a last name and raise it right." (Jace)
    "You want to get it a puppy, too?"
    "Sure. We'll call it Panic. It and little Paranoia can play together at the park and scare the hell out of all the other kids.”
    ― D.D. Barant, Back from the Undead

    “Paranoia is just having the right information.”
    ― William S. Burroughs

    “My paranoia wasn't always right, but just to be on the safe side, I never went to sleep with a clown in the room.”
    ― Mark Henwick

    I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code.
    -Emo Phillips

    The truly paranoid are rarely conned. <-- like that one.

    I sincerely believe people talk about me. Mine would be a pretty meaningless existence if they didn't.

    Why are some people terrified of "black helicopters" and don't even notice that they are being monitored almost constantly by the whole network of obvious surveillance cameras, credit cards, ATMs, EZpass, company ID/access cards, magazine subscriptions, SSNs, taxes, fees, video rentals, Internet firewall recording, 'cookies', ... ? <-- TRUTH!

    Paranoia: the belief that someone cares.

    When everyone is out to get you, paranoia is only good thinking.

    "Paranoia is knowing all the facts."
    - Woody Allen

    Paranoia is a social disease--you get it from screwing other people.

    "This is the Nineties, Bubba, and there is no such thing as Paranoia. It's all true."
    - Hunter S Thompson

    "Paranoia is only the leading edge of the discovery that everything in the world is connected."
    - `The Illuminatus Trilogy'

    The greater the concentration of power, the greater the paranoia it generates about its need to destroy everything outside itself.

    "When everyone _is_ out to get to you, being paranoid isn't going to help." -
    - Q, Star Trek: The Next Generation
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  49. #199
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    I don't think calling people paranoid or tinfoil hats makes any sense any more. We were just shown that 90% of the stuff that people easily used to dismiss as paranoia, is, in fact, true.
    Pff. They're just using facts to make you think it's true.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  50. #200

    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    [...]NSA's UK minions are using terrorism statutes to detain the partner of Glenn Greenwald for 9 hours and seize his belongings. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ained-heathrow

    Whichever edge of Hanlon's Razor you choose the NSA minions lose.

    Convictions will follow when the NSA is held to account.
    Yeah, that incident was quite peculiar...

    The 28-year-old was held for nine hours, the maximum the law allows before officers must release or formally arrest the individual. According to official figures, most examinations under schedule 7 over 97% last less than an hour, and only one in 2,000 people detained are kept for more than six hours.
    Miranda was released, but officials confiscated electronics equipment including his mobile phone, laptop, camera, memory sticks, DVDs and games consoles.
    Greenwald had this to say:

    To detain my partner for a full nine hours while denying him a lawyer, and then seize large amounts of his possessions, is clearly intended to send a message of intimidation to those of us who have been reporting on the NSA[...]
    This measure is without justification since it involves an individual against whom there are no charges that can legitimate the use of that legislation.[...]
    Brazilian Government.

    David's detention was unlawful and inexcusable. He was detained under a law that violates any principle of fairness and his detention shows how the law can be abused for petty, vindictive reasons.

    "There is simply no basis for believing that David Michael Miranda presents any threat whatsoever[...]
    Widney Brown, Amnesty International's senior director of international law and policy.

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