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Thread: NSA data mining

  1. #101
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    I would break the law if i think the law is unfair, un-reasonable or stupid. The end.


    Example:
    How many people have broken the law of prostitution ?
    Just because you don't believe that a law is fair or just doesn't give you impunity to break it. We have ways in this country to change a law. That is what all the people standing in front of Walmart, Kmart, sears, target, and every grocery store asking you to sign their petition are attempting to do, change the laws. If you are charged with soliciting a prostitute, your belief that the law is unfair, unreasonable, or stupid is not going to keep you from being convicted.

    And I have never broken the law against prostitution, I have never paid for sex in my life. I have never gone without either.

    Now, the laws that pertain to speed limits, yes, I have broke the speed limit. I have had every car I own in triple digit speeds. But when I get a ticket for speeding, I have earned every last one of them.

  2. #102
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    I would break the law if i think the law is unfair, un-reasonable or stupid. The end.


    Example:
    How many people have broken the law of prostitution ?
    Sounds like Somalia would be a good country for you to live in then. And remember that everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a stupid or unreasonable law. So while you may think leaking state secrets and prostitution are unreasonable or stupid laws, someone else might think that not being allowed to kill gay people is stupid and unreasonable or that it is stupid and unreasonable not being able to possess and distribute child porn. You're opening a Pandora's Box there when you decide that laws shouldn't have to be followed based on the feelings of whether they're stupid or unreasonable by each individual. But if that's the world you want, so be it. Better start getting your petitions ready to get the law change.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Sounds like Somalia would be a good country for you to live in then. And remember that everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a stupid or unreasonable law. So while you may think leaking state secrets and prostitution are unreasonable or stupid laws, someone else might think that not being allowed to kill gay people is stupid and unreasonable or that it is stupid and unreasonable not being able to possess and distribute child porn. You're opening a Pandora's Box there when you decide that laws shouldn't have to be followed based on the feelings of whether they're stupid or unreasonable by each individual. But if that's the world you want, so be it. Better start getting your petitions ready to get the law change.
    Nazi Germany legislated laws against Jews, Gays and Gypsies for the Nazis needed scapegoats to explain Germany's ills ensuring that their victims ended up in camps where they were exterminated...all in accordance with the laws of the land....I wonder how those millions of victims would have gone about reversing those laws?

    Personal liberty is the very foundation of an open and democratic society where government should not be entitled to know all our secrets....for to accept this idea is to pander to those political elites who offered so called security to their own populations in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Communist Russia....certitude is never the result of control of the masses.....liberty can only be expressed through freedom of expression......and government snooping can never provide the security that it presumes it can offer the people.

  4. #104
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Nazi Germany legislated laws against Jews, Gays and Gypsies for the Nazis needed scapegoats to explain Germany's ills ensuring that their victims ended up in camps where they were exterminated...all in accordance with the laws of the land....I wonder how those millions of victims would have gone about reversing those laws?

    Personal liberty is the very foundation of an open and democratic society where government should not be entitled to know all our secrets....for to accept this idea is to pander to those political elites who offered so called security to their own populations in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Communist Russia....certitude is never the result of control of the masses.....liberty can only be expressed through freedom of expression......and government snooping can never provide the security that it presumes it can offer the people.
    And you have yet to prove the government is snooping on citizens. You're basing your entire argument against the NSA on an unsubstantiated and unproven premise. If you want to argue theory, then I think everyone, including myself, would agree the government shouldn't be allowed to spy on its citizens. However, the reality of the situation has not shown it to be true that they do.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And you have yet to prove the government is snooping on citizens. You're basing your entire argument against the NSA on an unsubstantiated and unproven premise. If you want to argue theory, then I think everyone, including myself, would agree the government shouldn't be allowed to spy on its citizens. However, the reality of the situation has not shown it to be true that they do.
    Continue to deny while the rest of the world including Congress, and President Obama have understood that reform of the NSAs snooping operations is overdue.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Continue to deny while the rest of the world including Congress, and President Obama have understood that reform of the NSAs snooping operations is overdue.
    Really? I believe Congress just voted on keeping the NSA programs in question. And the reforms Obama proposed were to show the public the NSA is not spying on them. Continue to avoid providing any evidence of your conspiracy theories. Maybe your Ministry of Citizen Protection can enlighten you on how intelligence activities really work since they've worked closely with the US Government for years on their's.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Really? I believe Congress just voted on keeping the NSA programs in question. And the reforms Obama proposed were to show the public the NSA is not spying on them. Continue to avoid providing any evidence of your conspiracy theories. Maybe your Ministry of Citizen Protection can enlighten you on how intelligence activities really work since they've worked closely with the US Government for years on their's.
    Changes are in the pipeline for even the most "patriotic" of politicians does not want his mail read or his telephone calls monitored by faceless wonders masquerading as defenders of liberty while compromising those freedoms.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And you have yet to prove the government is snooping on citizens.
    An ordinary principle of accountable government is that the citizenry does not have to prove its concerns to those in office. Those in office have the burden of demonstrating that their conduct meets with the approval of the citizens.

    Nothing at all need be proved before people are allowed to demand more transparency and improved safeguards regulating how those in office may or may not spy on the private communications of ordinary people who are suspected of no crime..
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    One of the best articles I have read putting this discussion into perspective. From Jennifer Hoelzer, Senator Wyden's former deputy chief of staff who also formerly interned at the NSA and attended the US Naval Academy.

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ce-leaks.shtml

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    One of the best articles I have read putting this discussion into perspective. From Jennifer Hoelzer, Senator Wyden's former deputy chief of staff who also formerly interned at the NSA and attended the US Naval Academy.

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ce-leaks.shtml
    A former insider of the NSA revealing her inside knowledge and concerns for liberty is rarely a matter that can be trusted to government when the people rights to freedom are daily infringed by those employed to protect liberty.....the enemy can also be discovered within....eating away at those very liberties they are pledged to defend.

  11. #111
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    This is true. However, the cases in which this has happened, there are 2 distinct differences. The first is that the parties who did break the law had no legal means to pursue their concerns. The second, and most important, is that in these cases those who broke the law stood their ground, fought for what they believed, and prevailed. The original colonists didn't declare independence and then run away. People like Rosa Parks didn't sit at the front of the bus and then run away when the police were called. They face the consequences for their actions and fought for what they believed. Snowden released this information, which he had legal ways of bringing to the attention of those who are charged with making, enforcing, and interpreting the laws, and then ran away from any responsibility that came with that.
    Which is why I don't try to make a direct comparison to Snowden. In his place I would have tried to work this through congress or if I felt that was pointless, then dump it to the press and stand up to make my case in a public court instead of fleeing the country.

    I am less interested in Snowden actually than I am in the questions he has raised.
    Given the history of abuse by governments, it's right to ask questions about surveillance, particularly as technology is reshaping every aspect of our lives,"
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    An ordinary principle of accountable government is that the citizenry does not have to prove its concerns to those in office. Those in office have the burden of demonstrating that their conduct meets with the approval of the citizens.

    Nothing at all need be proved before people are allowed to demand more transparency and improved safeguards regulating how those in office may or may not spy on the private communications of ordinary people who are suspected of no crime..
    Well stated. It's called "accountability".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    One of the best articles I have read putting this discussion into perspective. From Jennifer Hoelzer, Senator Wyden's former deputy chief of staff who also formerly interned at the NSA and attended the US Naval Academy.

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ce-leaks.shtml
    I met her once at one of Wyden's town hall meetings. The impression that stuck in my mind was one of a sharp intellect coupled with a devotion to the concerns of the people.

    She writes an excellent piece. And Wyden's speech only confirms what I said during the elections: if he'd been Obama's running mate, Obama would have gotten my vote.

    OTOH, I would have just been voting for a liar to sit in the Oval Office, as he does anyway.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #114
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Which is why I don't try to make a direct comparison to Snowden. In his place I would have tried to work this through congress or if I felt that was pointless, then dump it to the press and stand up to make my case in a public court instead of fleeing the country.

    I am less interested in Snowden actually than I am in the questions he has raised.
    I've always maintained that we should be thankful to Snowden for being as responsible as he felt he could in bringing this all to our attention and forcing a debate. After all, he could have just sent a huge mass of material to Wikileaks.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    BTW, people who are part of a community that regularly uses the fallacious argument, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" but who insist they have to hide everything aren't worthy of any more trust than I'd give a random homeless drug addict off the street.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #116
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, people who are part of a community that regularly uses the fallacious argument, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" but who insist they have to hide everything aren't worthy of any more trust than I'd give a random homeless drug addict off the street.
    I don't think a single person has made that argument in this thread. There is no evidence of the government spying on Americans, so that is the actual fallacious argument here. And yes, the government will always have things to hide because intelligence activities just aren't effective if everyone knows what you are doing. It's a very simple concept and every single country on the face of this Earth has classified programs and information that the public doesn't know. The fact that there are laws that classify information that have been in place since the founding of this country shows that the American people understand that there are things that must be kept from the general public and they support that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Changes are in the pipeline for even the most "patriotic" of politicians does not want his mail read or his telephone calls monitored by faceless wonders masquerading as defenders of liberty while compromising those freedoms.
    Are they? Seems like the first change failed, and I would imagine it's because even the most "patriotic" of politicians knows that they are not being used to spy on Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    An ordinary principle of accountable government is that the citizenry does not have to prove its concerns to those in office. Those in office have the burden of demonstrating that their conduct meets with the approval of the citizens.

    Nothing at all need be proved before people are allowed to demand more transparency and improved safeguards regulating how those in office may or may not spy on the private communications of ordinary people who are suspected of no crime..
    Actually, if the citizenry expects their elected representatives to do anything about their concerns, then they do indeed need to prove their concerns. Sure, you could demand your representative push for a law allowing Big Foot to roam freely on federal lands or to open airspace on December 24th for Santa Clause to act unimpeded, but you're not going to see any results.

    Additionally, this country, as I've mentioned before, operates as a representative democracy, meaning that the citizenry elects people to go make decisions on their behalf. It doesn't mean the government is required to reveal and seek permission from the entire citizenry before doing anything. People can demand all they want, but unless they can provide evidence that wrongdoing is occurring and be in the majority that does so, they're not going to get action. You've seen inaction on eliminating these NSA programs or arresting people for violating the Constitution because the majority of those who make the decisions know that the allegations of NSA spying on Americans is unfounded and is merely panic from a certain segment of the population that has a propensity towards those ideas. These programs exists because a majority of Americans demanded that the government take action to prevent terrorists from carrying out terrorists acts on Americans. When the majority of the American people want these programs gone, then they'll be gone. Until then, you'll just have to live with the fact that the minority sometimes doesn't get its way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I've always maintained that we should be thankful to Snowden for being as responsible as he felt he could in bringing this all to our attention and forcing a debate. After all, he could have just sent a huge mass of material to Wikileaks.
    He wasn't responsible at all. If he were, then he would have released his PRISM slides and Verizon warrant and have been done with it. As it stands, he gave everything to Glenn Greenwald, including stuff that has nothing to do with the Constitution or the rights of US citizens. In addition, he did it all without even attempting to pursue legal avenues.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Actually, if the citizenry expects their elected representatives to do anything about their concerns, then they do indeed need to prove their concerns. Sure, you could demand your representative push for a law allowing Big Foot to roam freely on federal lands or to open airspace on December 24th for Santa Clause to act unimpeded, but you're not going to see any results.

    Additionally, this country, as I've mentioned before, operates as a representative democracy, meaning that the citizenry elects people to go make decisions on their behalf. It doesn't mean the government is required to reveal and seek permission from the entire citizenry before doing anything. People can demand all they want, but unless they can provide evidence that wrongdoing is occurring and be in the majority that does so, they're not going to get action. You've seen inaction on eliminating these NSA programs or arresting people for violating the Constitution because the majority of those who make the decisions know that the allegations of NSA spying on Americans is unfounded and is merely panic from a certain segment of the population that has a propensity towards those ideas. These programs exists because a majority of Americans demanded that the government take action to prevent terrorists from carrying out terrorists acts on Americans. When the majority of the American people want these programs gone, then they'll be gone. Until then, you'll just have to live with the fact that the minority sometimes doesn't get its way.
    I'm fairly sure having watched how Washington works over the years that if enough people really demanded it, proof or no proof your Bigfoot and Santa Claus laws would be passed. If for no other reason than they gain the Representatives good will without any real political cost. Since when has a proof requirement or even reality had anything to do with the laws congress passes?

    It is a Representative Democracy, which means that for the most part the representatives are suppose to represent the will of the people. If Washington ran purely on proof or logic we would have replaced the dollar bill with dollar coins a long time ago but the people don't want it no matter how much money it would save.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I'm fairly sure having watched how Washington works over the years that if enough people really demanded it, proof or no proof your Bigfoot and Santa Claus laws would be passed. If for no other reason than they gain the Representatives good will without any real political cost. Since when has a proof requirement or even reality had anything to do with the laws congress passes?

    It is a Representative Democracy, which means that for the most part the representatives are suppose to represent the will of the people. If Washington ran purely on proof or logic we would have replaced the dollar bill with dollar coins a long time ago but the people don't want it no matter how much money it would save.
    But see enough people aren't demanding it because no proof or evidence has been provided supporting these allegations of crimes. The representatives of the people had demanded of them action to be taken to protect from terrorists. They implemented these systems and they see how they are used. Until you convince people otherwise, they aren't going to change anything. A majority of the American people still support the NSA programs, despite also believing they may be used for more than terrorism investigations and despite the fact they think they don't have enough oversight. You're going to need evidence supporting your claims of these systems being used to spy on Americans if you ever hope to break the idea that despite the perceived shortcomings, people still prefer these systems to not feeling safe.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    There is another issue coming out of this that also gets Washington's attention and that is business bottom lines. There is a reason Google and Microsoft are bending over backwards to try and convince their customers they limit cooperation with the NSA. German telecom companies are now announcing that not only are they moving to SSL encryption on their e-mail accounts but are moving ALL of their traffic off of American servers. They calling the project "E-Mail Made in Germany".
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Are they? Seems like the first change failed, and I would imagine it's because even the most "patriotic" of politicians knows that they are not being used to spy on Americans.
    Most Congresscritters don't even know what's going on. As Senator Wyden and others have reported, those in Congress with clearance can't even tell their colleagues about a great deal of what goes on -- which means that there is no oversight, and that Congress votes without even knowing what it's voting on.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Most Congresscritters don't even know what's going on. As Senator Wyden and others have reported, those in Congress with clearance can't even tell their colleagues about a great deal of what goes on -- which means that there is no oversight, and that Congress votes without even knowing what it's voting on.
    Whitepaper from the Justice Department outlining the legal rationale behind the programs as well as Congress's participation and awareness in reauthorizations.

    Links to documents sent and made available to ALL members of Congress to review in 2009 and 2011 explaining these programs. All on that link is the link to the primary order for the Verizon collection of metadata issued by the FISA court. you'll also note the 2011 letter explains the earlier point brought up by a member of Congress who had his requests for classified information to be sent to him denied. It clearly shows the requirement to obtain, view, and store classified information in secure rooms only.

    If Congress is unaware of what they're voting on it's because they've willfully kept themselves in the dark about it. The primary purview of the intelligence institutions falls to the Intelligence Committees in both the House and the Senate as has been the case for many decades and as is the case in any other aspect of the government. I would also fault Congress for voting twice to extend programs they felt they didn't know anything about. I think what is actually the case is that they did know, they voted for these programs, and are now changing their tune when it's politically convenient after the shit hits the fan. It's also good to note that even with all of the leaks recently, they STILL maintained the programs and voted down an amendment to stop the programs.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    tigerfan, you're not even consistent from one post to the next. Here you're saying the shit has hit the fan and now they're changing their tune. Only a few posts ago you were saying the democratic representatives would never change things without good reasons.

    Well evidently the reasons are good. The program is not.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Seantor Wyden has explained that only members of the Senate Intelligence committee get to see the actual substance of a great deal that goes on. So it's impossible for Congress to be informed, especially when those committee members aren't allowed to tell other members of Congress what exactly is happening.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    tigerfan, you're not even consistent from one post to the next. Here you're saying the shit has hit the fan and now they're changing their tune. Only a few posts ago you were saying the democratic representatives would never change things without good reasons.

    Well evidently the reasons are good. The program is not.
    Actually, I'm quite consistent. I never said Congress was changing anything, as evidenced by the recent rejection of an amendment to stop these programs. They're merely acting like they are concerned and are continuing with business as usual. Unfortunately, Congress has generally had to act as a buffer to the American people because they swing wildly from one extreme to another depending on the circumstances. When 9/11 happened, people demanded to know why their government didn't do enough to protect them, so they passed these laws. The media has leaked documents without the proper context and, in many cases, fluffing them up with rhetoric to make people think the government is monitoring their every move, and now some people are worried about it (although, not enough since 50% of the population still thinks the NSA programs are a good idea), and those people in the minority want the programs ended. Then, the next terrorist attack will happen and we'll be right back to where we were after 9/11. People's emotions swing wildly and the government can't pass new laws every time the wind changes.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Seantor Wyden has explained that only members of the Senate Intelligence committee get to see the actual substance of a great deal that goes on. So it's impossible for Congress to be informed, especially when those committee members aren't allowed to tell other members of Congress what exactly is happening.
    I linked the letters sent to all members of Congress in 2009 and 2011. Go read them before commenting. There is more than enough information in those to make an informed decision on whether to continue such programs or not. And I trust very little of what Wyden says because he is as biased as the Republicans out digging around for some link to the President on the IRS scandal or the Benghazi incident. He doesn't like the intelligence programs and he will say whatever he needs to to undermine them. There are numerous other Senators and Representatives who are on the intelligence committees who says there is plenty of oversight.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    There is another issue coming out of this that also gets Washington's attention and that is business bottom lines. There is a reason Google and Microsoft are bending over backwards to try and convince their customers they limit cooperation with the NSA. German telecom companies are now announcing that not only are they moving to SSL encryption on their e-mail accounts but are moving ALL of their traffic off of American servers. They calling the project "E-Mail Made in Germany".
    One of the consequences of the revelation of these spying programs by the Obama administration will be to modify the infrastructure of the internet globally, so that far less international traffic flows through American data pipes. Right now, American infrastructure is only used because it's cheap. But, nobody wants to be spied upon. The world has the ability to fix this problem. And I expect that they will.

    That will leave the NSA with no one to listen to but Americans. But that is probably most of what the NSA does, anyway, since most of the world's internet traffic originates here.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    One of the consequences of the revelation of these spying programs by the Obama administration will be to modify the infrastructure of the internet globally, so that far less international traffic flows through American data pipes. Right now, American infrastructure is only used because it's cheap. But, nobody wants to be spied upon. The world has the ability to fix this problem. And I expect that they will.

    That will leave the NSA with no one to listen to but Americans. But that is probably most of what the NSA does, anyway, since most of the world's internet traffic originates here.
    I highly doubt it. Too much of the internet's infrastructure runs through the US. It would cost tens, if not hundreds, of billions to setup infrastructure to completely avoid the US, and then you wouldn't have access to any US sites. There is a reason everything goes through here and it's because countries just don't have enough to setup their own. We'll see when the price tag comes around who is ACTUALLY willing to pay to be comforted that the US isn't spying on them. And even then, it will be irrelevant since most of these countries work with US intelligence agencies anyway. Hell, even if they did set up their own internet infrastructure, they'd still have to invite the NSA over to help them get their own metadata collections systems up and going.

    And I think your stats are wrong. The US is no longer the dominant player in the internet market. By pure users alone, Asia is first and then Europe, with the US coming in third. Source.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I highly doubt it. Too much of the internet's infrastructure runs through the US. It would cost tens, if not hundreds, of billions to setup infrastructure to completely avoid the US, and then you wouldn't have access to any US sites. There is a reason everything goes through here and it's because countries just don't have enough to setup their own. We'll see when the price tag comes around who is ACTUALLY willing to pay to be comforted that the US isn't spying on them. And even then, it will be irrelevant since most of these countries work with US intelligence agencies anyway. Hell, even if they did set up their own internet infrastructure, they'd still have to invite the NSA over to help them get their own metadata collections systems up and going.

    And I think your stats are wrong. The US is no longer the dominant player in the internet market. By pure users alone, Asia is first and then Europe, with the US coming in third. Source.
    Americans designed the internet to be able to be routed around failed areas, or troubled areas. Trouble spots like the number three player, when that player has a spying problem.

    Now you're not even consistent within the same post. The US is not indispensable to the internet.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Americans designed the internet to be able to be routed around failed areas, or troubled areas. Trouble spots like the number three player, when that player has a spying problem.

    Now you're not even consistent within the same post. The US is not indispensable to the internet.
    Yes. The whole point of the internet was that it have no center, no core, no vulnerable heart.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Americans designed the internet to be able to be routed around failed areas, or troubled areas. Trouble spots like the number three player, when that player has a spying problem.

    Now you're not even consistent within the same post. The US is not indispensable to the internet.
    How am I not consistent in this post? You claiming every post I make is inconsistent does nothing to further your argument and really shows you're grasping.

    While the US is not the number one country in terms of internet users, it by far routes the most internet traffic in the world. And yes, while the internet is designed to be able to be routed around trouble spots, it's not designed to be routed around the epicenter of the internet - the US. Most of the world's major backbones run through the US and are run by US companies.

    Here's a map of undersea cables and where they run. As you can see, the common point of almost all of them is in the US. So in order to bypass that, they would have to interconnect all countries with each other which would be a massive undertaking.

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    JUB Addict darden's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I'd imagine that the internet would work without the US, it just wouldn't be particularly pleasant and sites hosted in the US would go dark.

  32. #132
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    I'd imagine that the internet would work without the US, it just wouldn't be particularly pleasant and sites hosted in the US would go dark.
    Depending at what point you define the internet no longer existing, it very well could. You could have groups of smaller networks in individual countries that could interconnect and communicate. However, given that a good amount of internet data resides in the US, I would argue that cutting the US out of the loop would no longer qualify it as the internet anymore. The US is the common connection between many countries and others. Cutting the US off would just segment the internet and you'd have regional groups of networks instead of a large, interconnected network of networks.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    How am I not consistent in this post? You claiming every post I make is inconsistent does nothing to further your argument and really shows you're grasping.

    While the US is not the number one country in terms of internet users, it by far routes the most internet traffic in the world. And yes, while the internet is designed to be able to be routed around trouble spots, it's not designed to be routed around the epicenter of the internet - the US. Most of the world's major backbones run through the US and are run by US companies.

    Here's a map of undersea cables and where they run. As you can see, the common point of almost all of them is in the US. So in order to bypass that, they would have to interconnect all countries with each other which would be a massive undertaking.
    I don't see a "common point" at all, just a distribution of connections. It wouldn't take that much to bypass the US.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I don't see a "common point" at all, just a distribution of connections. It wouldn't take that much to bypass the US.
    The common point is the US. Do you not see all of the colorful lines running into it? The vast majority of the connections that interconnect regions in the world run through the US. There are a plethora of regional fiber trunks run, but the interconnection of the various regions occurs through the US. And again, what country is going to cut off access to the US? Economically alone that would cost billions of dollars closing yourself off to the online US market. Is every country going to set up it's own internet backbone that isolated form the US and its intelligence allies? I think cutting off Australia, Canada, the US, Great Britain, New Zealand, and various other cooperative European countries won't leave much left. You can't cut off traffic from a country to the US. It's just not feasible economically or technologically.

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    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Whitepaper from the Justice Department outlining the legal rationale behind the programs as well as Congress's participation and awareness in reauthorizations.

    Links to documents sent and made available to ALL members of Congress to review in 2009 and 2011 explaining these programs. All on that link is the link to the primary order for the Verizon collection of metadata issued by the FISA court. you'll also note the 2011 letter explains the earlier point brought up by a member of Congress who had his requests for classified information to be sent to him denied. It clearly shows the requirement to obtain, view, and store classified information in secure rooms only.

    If Congress is unaware of what they're voting on it's because they've willfully kept themselves in the dark about it. The primary purview of the intelligence institutions falls to the Intelligence Committees in both the House and the Senate as has been the case for many decades and as is the case in any other aspect of the government. I would also fault Congress for voting twice to extend programs they felt they didn't know anything about. I think what is actually the case is that they did know, they voted for these programs, and are now changing their tune when it's politically convenient after the shit hits the fan. It's also good to note that even with all of the leaks recently, they STILL maintained the programs and voted down an amendment to stop the programs.
    A whitepaper and a few documents, sounds amazing like what the Bush Administration did to justify their torture programs to congress. Seem those produced the same results, initial acceptance followed by a lot of Congressmen saying they didn't understand and were deceived once the full details began to emerge.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    There is another issue coming out of this that also gets Washington's attention and that is business bottom lines. There is a reason Google and Microsoft are bending over backwards to try and convince their customers they limit cooperation with the NSA. German telecom companies are now announcing that not only are they moving to SSL encryption on their e-mail accounts but are moving ALL of their traffic off of American servers. They calling the project "E-Mail Made in Germany".
    For further information
    http://www.zdnet.com/deutsche-teleko...sm-7000019266/

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    A whitepaper and a few documents, sounds amazing like what the Bush Administration did to justify their torture programs to congress. Seem those produced the same results, initial acceptance followed by a lot of Congressmen saying they didn't understand and were deceived once the full details began to emerge.
    And what laws were passed to stop waterboarding? What people were prosecuted for torture? What at all did Congress do? Nothing. You're making the argument that they were uninformed and then, when shown they were informed, you're making the argument the information wasn't enough. You're just like Congress. They know the decision they make and they conveniently avoid briefings and meetings so that if something ever does go bad, they can wash their hands of responsibility and claim they didn't know anything. Since Snowden released his information, let's see what's happened:

    - The court has renewed the court orders for the metadata to continue to be collected.
    - Congress has voted against eliminating the programs in question.
    - The American public still supports the NSA programs, despite reservations about how the data is used.

    If Snowden's aim was to get Libertarians and far lefties talking about what they already believed the government does, then he's succeeded. If his aim was to be hailed as some hero by everyone (because we see from ArsTechnica IRC chat that his positions on the opposite end of the spectrum didn't earn him the attention he wanted) and to cause the collapse of the intelligence system, then he has so far failed. Ultimately, we'll have to wait and see what Congress decides to do to placate the American public and get them settled back down again, but I'm sure you'll be waiting a while if you expect to see any real change in policy or law.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Seems from the article that they're not moving ALL of their internet traffic off of American servers, but are merely linking those 3 e-mail services together in country for in-country e-mail. Looks like Germany's intelligence is going to have some long nights ahead of them getting their metadata collection set up on these links since they can't use the US's anymore.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I guess I shouldn't complain too much... I work for an American web hosting company. we're in the midst of opening three new data centers in Europe because of increased demand by clients not wanting to store their data in the US. maybe I'll get a free German vacation out of the whole thing

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    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Seems from the article that they're not moving ALL of their internet traffic off of American servers, but are merely linking those 3 e-mail services together in country for in-country e-mail.
    Correct. The whole "e-mail made in germany" thing is just a marketing ploy. The technique is (in an IT context) ANCIENT and the standard was defined at the end of the 90s. Many companies already use it. TLS is also only an end2end encryption on the transport layer. Which will help against the NSA grabbing the mail off the wire - but since it is still stored unecrypted on the companies servers, it is more or less a smokescreen.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The common point is the US. Do you not see all of the colorful lines running into it? The vast majority of the connections that interconnect regions in the world run through the US. There are a plethora of regional fiber trunks run, but the interconnection of the various regions occurs through the US. And again, what country is going to cut off access to the US? Economically alone that would cost billions of dollars closing yourself off to the online US market. Is every country going to set up it's own internet backbone that isolated form the US and its intelligence allies? I think cutting off Australia, Canada, the US, Great Britain, New Zealand, and various other cooperative European countries won't leave much left. You can't cut off traffic from a country to the US. It's just not feasible economically or technologically.
    It would take six cables to bypass the US connection on the Pacific side.

    BTW, who said anything about cutting off from the US market???


    trivia note: four transpacific cables leave the continent through my home county (a fifth is being worked on). a wit here said since all that data goes through the county, the county should tax it by the megabyte, to rebuild all the roads used by the people who put them in.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  42. #142
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, who said anything about cutting off from the US market???
    I believe it was Stardreamer earlier when he said that Germany was talking above removing ALL of its internet traffic from the US servers. If you remove all traffic, you're cutting off the connection. You can't reach US servers and not have any of your traffic go to US servers.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    ^ that's not what they mean. You need to know how routing, routes, routers and routing tables/routing algorithms work. It is possible that a connection from a german computer to a german server is routed through the US. Or more likely, from India through the US. This is what they want to stop/change. If you are willingly connecting to an US server, you will of course still get a connection.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    …The NSA’s electronic surveillance may fundamentally alter the market
    dynamics. Neelie Kroes, European Commissioner for Digital Affairs, stated the problem quite succinctly, “If European cloud customers cannot trust the United States government, then maybe they won’t trust U.S. cloud providers either. If I am right, there are multibillion-euro consequences for American companies. If I were an American cloud provider, I would be quite frustrated with my government right now.”
    NSA’s spying could lose U.S. computing industry $35bn in three years

    The point is that European and other Internet services are now looking to avoid passing and storing traffic with cloud services that touch US servers, this WILL cost US companies money and they are most likely going to be letting congress know about it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    ^ that's not what they mean. You need to know how routing, routes, routers and routing tables/routing algorithms work. It is possible that a connection from a german computer to a german server is routed through the US. Or more likely, from India through the US. This is what they want to stop/change. If you are willingly connecting to an US server, you will of course still get a connection.
    Much more succinctly explained than I could have done!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  46. #146
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    ^ that's not what they mean. You need to know how routing, routes, routers and routing tables/routing algorithms work. It is possible that a connection from a german computer to a german server is routed through the US. Or more likely, from India through the US. This is what they want to stop/change. If you are willingly connecting to an US server, you will of course still get a connection.
    I understand how internet routing works. I also understand that when someone says ALL internet traffic (ALL being in all caps), that they generally mean all traffic, not just domestic traffic. Most domestic traffic within countries is already routed domestically. However, most international traffic is routed through the US ultimately because that's where the backbones are. The infrastructure is already in place and to build out new infrastructure would cost LOTS of money and time and most countries just aren't willing to invest that. I am willing to bet that most Europeans would rather hold on to the benefits they derive from government than give up some of those to finance new internet routing infrastructure. And yes, to build out a new infrastructure would require heavy government investment since there is currently no financial benefit to private companies to invest such large sums of money for little return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    NSAs spying could lose U.S. computing industry $35bn in three years

    The point is that European and other Internet services are now looking to avoid passing and storing traffic with cloud services that touch US servers, this WILL cost US companies money and they are most likely going to be letting congress know about it.
    I would argue that this was happening to begin with. As the report on which this article is based states "Of the $13.5 billion in investments that cloud computing service providers made in 2011, $5.6
    billion came from companies outside North America." Countries were already trying to play catch up and would have continued to do so with or without information on NSA activities. I think stating that it's the fault of the NSA is trying to lay the economic consequences of an event that was inevitable and already taking place at the feet of the NSA.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Tigerfan, Everything gets blamed on the United States Government. It has become the International pastime. Maybe you and I just need to take an earl retirement and find some naked beach on the gulf coast to kick back and watch the fireworks.

  48. #148
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I understand how internet routing works. I also understand that when someone says ALL internet traffic (ALL being in all caps), that they generally mean all traffic, not just domestic traffic. Most domestic traffic within countries is already routed domestically. However, most international traffic is routed through the US ultimately because that's where the backbones are. The infrastructure is already in place and to build out new infrastructure would cost LOTS of money and time and most countries just aren't willing to invest that. I am willing to bet that most Europeans would rather hold on to the benefits they derive from government than give up some of those to finance new internet routing infrastructure. And yes, to build out a new infrastructure would require heavy government investment since there is currently no financial benefit to private companies to invest such large sums of money for little return.
    That isn't even what your own map shows. The effect of the world having had enough of US "legal" policy would primarily be to cut off the US and Canada. The rest of them would operate quite happily along the major pathways shown on your map.

    I am reminded of an apocryphal tale dating back to the height of British imperial hubris: "Fog Closes Channel - Continent Cut Off."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  49. #149
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I said this in another thread, but it also applies here. The cables, switching equipment, and other parts of the system belong to a third party, either the phone company, cable company, or in some cases the government. Every time you send an email or dial a telephone, the instant the communication passes through the walls of your residence or place of business it is on a third parties network. When you give something to a third party, how do you expect to maintain your right to privacy? Which is false anyway. The only real place your right to privacy can be expected is in your face to face communications. Remember, the telephone company started out with live operators, you picked up the phone, told the operator who you wanted to call, and she took your phone line on her switch board and plugged it in to the phone line of the person you wanted to call. And if she wasn't the local gossip, she hung her head set up and did not listen in on your conversation. Where in the transition from the operator to party lines to electronic switching to computerized switching did anyone come up with the idea that their phone calls were privileged communications? Chances are likely that someone has been listening in on your calls from day one. In legal terms, the only privileged communication is between you and your attorney, everything else is obtainable with a warrant. And for all we know, they do in fact have the warrants.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    That isn't even what your own map shows. The effect of the world having had enough of US "legal" policy would primarily be to cut off the US and Canada. The rest of them would operate quite happily along the major pathways shown on your map.

    I am reminded of an apocryphal tale dating back to the height of British imperial hubris: "Fog Closes Channel - Continent Cut Off."
    Ok. Go to the map and find me an international route from Germany to India that doesn't involve US providers (keeping in mind that if a US entity is an owner of the backbone, then they have access to it.) Also, since everyone is worried about privacy, you're going to have to avoid China, Russia, many countries in the Middle East, and the US intelligence partners Canada, Australia, the UK, and New Zealand (remember, because it's been claimed all of them share all of their information with each other). Also keep in mind that it's cheaper for countries to route through the US to get to other countries instead of paying the tariffs and other costs to route between each other.

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