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Thread: NSA data mining

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    To further cement T-Rexx's quote, have a look at the statement of the now closed http://lavabit.com/ - an US-based e-mail service that made privacy a #1 priority after the founder wasn't happy with google's policies.
    Statement is at http://boingboing.net/2013/08/08/lav...e-snowden.html.

    The Flat Earth Society may now comment.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yeah -- not enough blood. Dry analysis and investigative reporting just don't sell these days.
    Generally, investigative reporting doesn't have to retract and edit statements they print because they weren't well researched. The earlier linked Washington Post blog didn't even have to investigate much - they just had to read past the headline of the Reuters article they were basing their "article" off of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I told a friend here yesterday he really should get a phone.

    He said he didn't want the NSA to know where he is....
    Well that's obviously proof positive that the government is spying on Americans. Case closed, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The problem is that the information is classified.

    You demand proof over significant circumstantial evidence when all parties are prohibited from examining the evidence. You require the impossible as a condition for disproving your thesis.
    That's not the problem at all. Snowden is the one who made the claims that the government is spying on Americans. He broke the law and released classified documents showing technical capabilities the NSA had (minus the slides that showed how they were used of course, since that wouldn't support his cause.) He shouldn't have had any problem gathering the requisite screenshots, e-mails, phone call snippets, metadata, etc. to provide to the Guardian to support his claims. Yet he did not. The NSA director provided a screenshot of what an analysts sees when accessing the metadata database in his presentation at Black Hat. Surely Snowden could have at least done that. But nope. So the onus is on him to provide support to his claims, not the government to provide evidence that his claims aren't true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    To further cement T-Rexx's quote, have a look at the statement of the now closed http://lavabit.com/ - an US-based e-mail service that made privacy a #1 priority after the founder wasn't happy with google's policies.
    I'd be interested to know more about this guy's claims. I'd imagine the government served him with a warrant to turn over any stored communications of Snowden's for the criminal investigation they are conducting. If this is the case, it is a legal search and seizure. We'll see as his case progresses.

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    ^ How sad that is. This is the first I've ever heard of lavabit.

    *****************
    Oh, if only Obama's decision not to participate included a statement about Russian Soviet antigay laws (Yes, the Soviet Union really does seem to have reassembled, minus its satellite regions, doesn't it?), in addition to the Snowden thing. Well, that's starting to gather steam, though.
    President Obama has publicly condemned Russia's anti-gay laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by President Obama on Tonight Show
    “I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgender persons in a way that intimidate them or are harmful to them,” Obama responded, while stressing that “Russia is not unique,” and noting he’s had to balance his pressure over laws like these within larger relationships with several African nations as well.
    Source: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...#ixzz2bPqBknfa

    The White House also noted a number of reasons for canceling his visit with Putin:

    Quote Originally Posted by White House Statement on Putin Visit Cancellation
    Carney cited a “lack of progress” with Russia over the past 12 months on a broad range of issues including missile defense and arms control, trade and commercial relations, global security and human rights and civil society issues. Carney added that Russia’s “disappointing decision” last week to grant Snowden temporary asylum, allowing him to live and work in Russia for up to a year, was also a factor.
    Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...f4d_story.html

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Ok. Your point? The government can legally search and seize e-mail from a service provider when the requisite legal requirements are met. This guy is free to fight them in court, which he appears to be taking donations to do. But if he stores the e-mails, then he can be compelled by law to turn them over. Maybe he should have researched the law a little more and either not stored customer's e-mail or hosted his servers beyond the reach of US authorities if he wanted to provide this service for privacy purposes.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    ...and just like that, you lost all of your coolness factor (._. )
    Even cool people are allowed their uncool moments.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'd be interested to know more about this guy's claims. I'd imagine the government served him with a warrant to turn over any stored communications of Snowden's for the criminal investigation they are conducting. If this is the case, it is a legal search and seizure. We'll see as his case progresses.
    That would be legal in basically any country and would not require a gag order on him to not release this info. So you can count on the fact that there is more to it than just that. Probably he is being bullied into the same "voluntary" NSA wire tapping program that Lostlover is raving all over.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    That would be legal in basically any country and would not require a gag order on him to not release this info. So you can count on the fact that there is more to it than just that. Probably he is being bullied into the same "voluntary" NSA wire tapping program that Lostlover is raving all over.
    Or he could have been served a warrant with a gag order (not required, but not prohibited) since the subject of the investigation stole state secrets and could have easily passed them through his service. There are definitely more possibilities than just "the NSA is recruiting him for wiretapping."

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    All of the clamor for Mr. Snowden to reveal evidence of actual wrongdoing by the field minions is a red herring. I sincerely doubt he was exposed to such field activity.

    The thrust of his - and others - revelations is that the present system of metadata surveillance and content surveillance is rife for abuse. We are seeing that abuse come to light now. "Parallel construction" by the IRS in conjunction with the DEA, to say nothing of the DEA's own use, is, so far as I know, independent of Mr. Snowden. It is also an apparent abrogation of the 4th and 5th Amendments.

    Anyone clamoring for some form of definitive proof of evil-doing at this point is trying to foreclose further inquiry. I think we shall have conclusive proof when already adjudicated cases are dismissed for manufactured evidence - excuse me, parallel constructed evidence.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    All of the clamor for Mr. Snowden to reveal evidence of actual wrongdoing by the field minions is a red herring. I sincerely doubt he was exposed to such field activity.

    The thrust of his - and others - revelations is that the present system of metadata surveillance and content surveillance is rife for abuse. We are seeing that abuse come to light now. "Parallel construction" by the IRS in conjunction with the DEA, to say nothing of the DEA's own use, is, so far as I know, independent of Mr. Snowden. It is also an apparent abrogation of the 4th and 5th Amendments.

    Anyone clamoring for some form of definitive proof of evil-doing at this point is trying to foreclose further inquiry. I think we shall have conclusive proof when already adjudicated cases are dismissed for manufactured evidence - excuse me, parallel constructed evidence.
    All the clamor for evidence is indeed no red herring. I would imagine were someone to accuse you of murder and the court convicted you without requiring any proof, you would not claim that any demand for proof is a red herring. Snowden made the claim himself that he could wiretap anyone. The exact quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Snowden
    "I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you, or your accountant, to a federal judge, to even the President if I had a personal email.
    If he had this authority and the programs he leaked the details of were in fact used to spy on Americans, he could have very easily utilized those authorities he had and obtained evidence of spying on Americans. So yes, I do demand proof of these claims he makes because these are important tools in our fight against terrorism and people like you clamoring for them to be shut down, agencies to be disbanded, people to be charged with crimes, etc. over claims that have no evidentiary support is what people should be appalled at. Your argument of it being "rife for abuse" is a weak and untenable argument, because that could be extended to anything. Since you brought it up earlier, places like Lavabit should be shut down because they could be used by child pornographers to transmit their materials. Guns should be banned because they can be abused and used to kill people. Cars should be outlawed because they can be used as tools of destruction. It goes on and on. Saying that because something has the potential to be misused means that is should be abolished is a weak and ludicrous argument to make.

    Finally, anyone asking for definitive proof is trying to further any additional inquiry, not foreclose it. Any rational and substantial inquiry needs to be based on facts and evidence, not circumstantial hearsay. Snowden revealed, through stolen classified documents, that capabilities exist to collect and process various metadata and content. What Snowden didn't provide is any evidence on how it is used or anything to support his CLAIM that it is used to spy on Americans. In fact, any information on how the programs are used (some of the missing 36 slides from the PRISM briefing, the Guardian-redacted successes from the XKeyScore briefing, etc.) seem to be omitted or hidden from the public by the very publications and individuals who claim they are for transparency and free information sharing. So if you want to talk about manufactured evidence (which is not the same as parallel construction BTW), then you need to look no further that the Guardian, Washington Post, Daily Kos, etc. etc.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    If he had this authority and the programs he leaked the details of were in fact used to spy on Americans, he could have very easily utilized those authorities he had and obtained evidence of spying on Americans. So yes, I do demand proof of these claims he makes because these are important tools in our fight against terrorism and people like you clamoring for them to be shut down, agencies to be disbanded, people to be charged with crimes, etc. over claims that have no evidentiary support is what people should be appalled at. Your argument of it being "rife for abuse" is a weak and untenable argument, because that could be extended to anything. Since you brought it up earlier, places like Lavabit should be shut down because they could be used by child pornographers to transmit their materials. Guns should be banned because they can be abused and used to kill people. Cars should be outlawed because they can be used as tools of destruction. It goes on and on. Saying that because something has the potential to be misused means that is should be abolished is a weak and ludicrous argument to make.
    So you expect him to become what he's warning against: a lawbreaker.

    I figured that all along.


    As for your later statements, it's government power that should be restricted so it can't be abused. Rights reside with the people, not with the government, and the whole point of American style government is to keep government from having any power at all that hasn't been specified.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you expect him to become what he's warning against: a lawbreaker.

    I figured that all along.


    As for your later statements, it's government power that should be restricted so it can't be abused. Rights reside with the people, not with the government, and the whole point of American style government is to keep government from having any power at all that hasn't been specified.
    He was already committed to being a lawbreaker. You're contention is the he was ok breaking the law to steal and release secrets showing a capability but wasn't ok breaking the law to prove it's alleged illegal use? Sounds a bit weak to me.

    And the government has been given the power to provide for the common defense. Congress has been given the power to make laws. Both of those have been exercised here. The Constitution set up a representative government, not a direct democracy. The people don't get to vote on everything the government does. The law is a reflection of the will of the people.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...oll-94809.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/m/blogEntry?id=19756563

    http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/...lance-program/

    The best and most telling thing about these polls is that people think they go too far, that NSA is not telling the whole truth, and that they don't think they make the country that much safer, yet they still support the programs. The people have spoken - they just haven't said what you want to hear.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    He was already committed to being a lawbreaker. You're contention is the he was ok breaking the law to steal and release secrets showing a capability but wasn't ok breaking the law to prove it's alleged illegal use? Sounds a bit weak to me.

    And the government has been given the power to provide for the common defense. Congress has been given the power to make laws. Both of those have been exercised here. The Constitution set up a representative government, not a direct democracy. The people don't get to vote on everything the government does. The law is a reflection of the will of the people.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...oll-94809.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/m/blogEntry?id=19756563

    http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/...lance-program/

    The best and most telling thing about these polls is that people think they go too far, that NSA is not telling the whole truth, and that they don't think they make the country that much safer, yet they still support the programs. The people have spoken - they just haven't said what you want to hear.
    Let me spell this out:

    your expectation that he would break the law he was revealing as wrong is ridiculous.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Let me spell this out:

    your expectation that he would break the law he was revealing as wrong is ridiculous.
    Let me spell this out for you:

    If he had the authorities as he claimed, he wouldn't be breaking the law. But, it turns out he did break the law in doing what he did by stealing and releasing classified information.

    He had no problem breaking one law to support his beliefs. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't break another to provide evidence of his claims. It's like a bank robber insisting the driver of his getaway car follow the speed limit.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Let me spell this out for you:

    If he had the authorities as he claimed, he wouldn't be breaking the law. But, it turns out he did break the law in doing what he did by stealing and releasing classified information.

    He had no problem breaking one law to support his beliefs. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't break another to provide evidence of his claims. It's like a bank robber insisting the driver of his getaway car follow the speed limit.
    [Text: Removed]

    I feel sorry for you.


    Fortunately, there are people who understand that there is something higher than human-made law and human interpretations by self-serving seekers of power, that there is a spirit of the law that supersedes the temporary laws humans make -- they are the ones who build civilization and take it forward, while you and those who think like you weigh us down and drag us back.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    [Text: Removed]

    I feel sorry for you.


    Fortunately, there are people who understand that there is something higher than human-made law and human interpretations by self-serving seekers of power, that there is a spirit of the law that supersedes the temporary laws humans make -- they are the ones who build civilization and take it forward, while you and those who think like you weigh us down and drag us back.
    Ah, he we go. [Text: Removed]

    I have a good moral foundation, and that foundation includes following the laws that man has set, since that is the reality in which we live. You can think all day about how some "creator" somewhere threw some rights your way if that, along with your tin foil hat and gun, helps you sleep at night. But the reality of the matter is that we live in a world that is nothing but human-made laws and we are expected to follow those. The only difference between countries is that some have the laws made by one or two people and some have it made by consensus of the populace. You like to argue the Constitution all day, which is nothing but a human-made set of principles that the United States has elected to follow. And going back to the idea of a representative democracy instead of everyone getting a choice in the matter, that very document was signed by a handful of representatives sent to draft it and was ratified by a handful of representatives chosen to make the decision to ratify or not. You didn't have a popular vote on whether the Constitution should be the way it is or not.

    So you need to get over this idea that everyone has to vote on something before it's a law that should be followed and you need to get it out of your head that you are answerable to anyone but your fellow human beings while alive on this planet. Maybe there is a parallel reality somewhere where there is some benevolent creator walking around distributing and defending rights, but here in this reality, it's the government doing that.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    To further cement T-Rexx's quote, have a look at the statement of the now closed http://lavabit.com/ - an US-based e-mail service that made privacy a #1 priority after the founder wasn't happy with google's policies.
    Add to the shut down (preemptive, in this case) list Silent Circle, a "global encryption service."

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I prefer to live in a fact-based, logical world and not some fantasy Orwellian world where the burden of proof for the government to show they're not spying on Americans is infinite and the burden of proof for anyone else to show the government is some evil bad guy is minuscule, if it exists at all. The US media hasn't confirmed anything. Operating off of a couple of quotes from "unnamed sources" and "recently obtained documents" that they refuse to print isn't confirmation of anything. It's the beginning of a good fictional spy novel.
    You acknowledge the spying exists, you just keep standing up for it as a necessity.

    What burden of proof do we have to meet for you to acknowledge your own statements. You think its a good program, and you're working very hard to deflect attention from it. In the most unconvincing way I might add.

    It's simple. Our communications as individuals should be subject to the same safeguards around interfering with people's private mail. An omnivorous automated surveillance system isn't an Orwellian fantasy. It's literally exactly what Orwell warned about.

    Only the most ignorant of history, or the most haplessly naive, could believe a system like that will stay in benign hands forever.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You acknowledge the spying exists, you just keep standing up for it as a necessity.
    Actually, he keeps claiming there is no proof that illegal spying on Americans exists, then he acknowledges that it exists.

    Then he complains that some of us think it exists, and he demands proof.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Add to the shut down (preemptive, in this case) list Silent Circle, a "global encryption service."
    Hey. If these places want to let their paranoia drive them out of business, that's all well and good. It's like saying the 7-11 down the street got robbed, so they should all preemptively close down so they won't get robbed, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You acknowledge the spying exists, you just keep standing up for it as a necessity.

    What burden of proof do we have to meet for you to acknowledge your own statements. You think its a good program, and you're working very hard to deflect attention from it. In the most unconvincing way I might add.

    It's simple. Our communications as individuals should be subject to the same safeguards around interfering with people's private mail. An omnivorous automated surveillance system isn't an Orwellian fantasy. It's literally exactly what Orwell warned about.

    Only the most ignorant of history, or the most haplessly naive, could believe a system like that will stay in benign hands forever.
    I do acknowledge that the NSA has a number of systems that it uses to collect foreign intelligence information, keeping in mind that foreign intelligence is not simply comprised of just terrorist related material. The US is the best at it which is why some many countries have the faux outrage over it. I guarantee you that if any country in the world had what we have, they would use it the same, if not in worse ways, than we do. We're already starting to see a list of countries who have partnered with the US to get information on terror cases. So yes, I and every country out there say spying exists and that it is a necessity.

    What I don't acknowledge and vehemently defend is that these capabilities are used against Americans by the US government, and I take that position based on simple facts - NO ONE CAN PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT THIS HAS OCCURRED. I know it doesn't take much to get many of you riled up against the government, but I prefer logical and well evidenced arguments. The arguments a number of you have made are not logical, lack evidence, and generally contain one or more logical fallacies. Yet you continue to make them because there is a group out there that falls for these arguments with little to no evidence. You seem to think that some fictional novel written in the 1940's is proof positive that there is some "omnivorous automated surveillance system" in place, yet you can't logically connect the dots with any actual evidence at all. Evidence could have EASILY been provided by Snowden. It wasn't. Until such evidence is produced, this isn't anything but a conspiracy theory.

    Only the most desperate to spread their message of distrust could argue a position without any facts to back it up. And your last line is an example of such a fallacy as I spoke of earlier - the good ole' slippery slope. This system, which you can't currently prove is being used to spy on Americans, should be taken down anyway because it can (and I'll assume you also meant most likely will) be used for nefarious purposes in the future since it is assumed it won't always stay in benign hands. Again, we'll go back to what I said earlier - if you're going to make the argument that we should get rid of something because it could, in the future, be used in an illegal or nefarious way, then we'll get rid of everything since anything could be used for a nefarious purpose (or even one not in line with what you think should or should not be done.)

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Actually, he keeps claiming there is no proof that illegal spying on Americans exists, then he acknowledges that it exists.

    Then he complains that some of us think it exists, and he demands proof.
    Actually, I never acknowledged that "illegal spying on Americans" existed. I agree spying exists. I don't agree that the NSA is spying on Americans. That is where I have demanded proof, and it has yet to be provided. This looks to be turning into a straw man fallacy.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed]
    Only to those who don't listen.

    By making morality equal to the law, by making an attempt to uphold the spirit of the law equal to breaking the law, tiger shows he has no moral foundation, that whatever the law says is what is good and right and just.

    That's the core of tyranny. It's the assertion that law is law, and whatever it says is right -- an assertion that puts the lawmakers above all others, tossing all notions of equality and rights out the window.

    This is simple logic.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #70
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Ah, he we go. [Text: Removed]
    The expected response from those who refuse to think: pretend it's all about opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    [Text: Removed]
    Self-ownership is an observable fact. It's the foundation of all human relations, including internal ones (i.e. mental health).

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I have a good moral foundation, and that foundation includes following the laws that man has set, since that is the reality in which we live. You can think all day about how some "creator" somewhere threw some rights your way if that, along with your tin foil hat and gun, helps you sleep at night. But the reality of the matter is that we live in a world that is nothing but human-made laws and we are expected to follow those. The only difference between countries is that some have the laws made by one or two people and some have it made by consensus of the populace.
    From what you've set forth in this forum, [Text: Removed] only a pliable artificial construct. That's all any morality based on human laws can ever be -- a temporary, artificial system.

    That we are "expected to follow" all man-made laws, and that you accept that as a moral principle, shows that your morality rests on coercion, and that you uphold coercion as being right. It's the morality of raw force, antithetical to reason.

    Countries are different because in some places the people have successfully exercised their self-ownership to different degrees. Leaders in Arab countries have fallen because they rejected your version of morality and exercised their self-ownership. The United States of America exists, and there is something called a "free world", ebcasue people have exercised self-ownership.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So you need to get over this idea that everyone has to vote on something before it's a law that should be followed and you need to get it out of your head that you are answerable to anyone but your fellow human beings while alive on this planet. Maybe there is a parallel reality somewhere where there is some benevolent creator walking around distributing and defending rights, but here in this reality, it's the government doing that.
    The government is an artificial structure that exists by the sufferance of the people. Since it has no independent existence, it cannot have anything to distribute. Whatever there is to distribute arises from those who possess those things in the first place, i.e. sentient individuals.

    I'm talking about substance and reality, while you're insisting on discussing what the philosophers call "accidents", the temporary, artificial adjuncts to a thing that aren't part of its nature.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #71
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Hey. If these places want to let their paranoia drive them out of business, that's all well and good. It's like saying the 7-11 down the street got robbed, so they should all preemptively close down so they won't get robbed, too.
    So you think it's okay for those who command coercion to shut down businesses for installing security systems -- that's what you just argued. See, you blew the comparison: the stores aren't shutting themselves down, the government is shutting them down because they're acting to protect themselves.

    In other words, they don't want to be victims, but the government will terminate them if they try to avoid being victims -- and you approve of that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #72
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you think it's okay for those who command coercion to shut down businesses for installing security systems -- that's what you just argued. See, you blew the comparison: the stores aren't shutting themselves down, the government is shutting them down because they're acting to protect themselves.

    In other words, they don't want to be victims, but the government will terminate them if they try to avoid being victims -- and you approve of that.
    Dude. [Text: Removed] If they choose to shut down instead of comply with a government warrant, then that is their choice. You don't get a choice whether to follow the law or not. We know very little about what caused this guy to shut down Lavabit, but we do know that Silent Circle shut down on their own accord, even admitting "we have not received subpoenas, warrants, security letters, or anything else by any government, and this is why we are acting now." This is not a case of government shutting down anyone. Neither is it the case the government shut down Lavabit. It's a bunch of drama queen websites capitalizing on the recent NSA information to try to drive home a point. But again, THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO SHUT THESE WEBSITES DOWN! They shut themselves down.

  23. #73
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I do acknowledge that the NSA has a number of systems that it uses to collect foreign intelligence information, keeping in mind that foreign intelligence is not simply comprised of just terrorist related material. The US is the best at it which is why some many countries have the faux outrage over it. I guarantee you that if any country in the world had what we have, they would use it the same, if not in worse ways, than we do. We're already starting to see a list of countries who have partnered with the US to get information on terror cases. So yes, I and every country out there say spying exists and that it is a necessity.

    What I don't acknowledge and vehemently defend is that these capabilities are used against Americans by the US government, and I take that position based on simple facts - NO ONE CAN PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT THIS HAS OCCURRED. I know it doesn't take much to get many of you riled up against the government, but I prefer logical and well evidenced arguments. The arguments a number of you have made are not logical, lack evidence, and generally contain one or more logical fallacies. Yet you continue to make them because there is a group out there that falls for these arguments with little to no evidence. You seem to think that some fictional novel written in the 1940's is proof positive that there is some "omnivorous automated surveillance system" in place, yet you can't logically connect the dots with any actual evidence at all. Evidence could have EASILY been provided by Snowden. It wasn't. Until such evidence is produced, this isn't anything but a conspiracy theory.

    Only the most desperate to spread their message of distrust could argue a position without any facts to back it up. And your last line is an example of such a fallacy as I spoke of earlier - the good ole' slippery slope. This system, which you can't currently prove is being used to spy on Americans, should be taken down anyway because it can (and I'll assume you also meant most likely will) be used for nefarious purposes in the future since it is assumed it won't always stay in benign hands. Again, we'll go back to what I said earlier - if you're going to make the argument that we should get rid of something because it could, in the future, be used in an illegal or nefarious way, then we'll get rid of everything since anything could be used for a nefarious purpose (or even one not in line with what you think should or should not be done.)


    Actually, I never acknowledged that "illegal spying on Americans" existed. I agree spying exists. I don't agree that the NSA is spying on Americans. That is where I have demanded proof, and it has yet to be provided. This looks to be turning into a straw man fallacy.
    The fact that the other end of your conversation occurs with a non-US national makes your private speech subject to monitoring by your government. Not just "metadata" but full, intrusive review, based on nothing other than the nationality of your correspondent.

    Snowden has been very judicious in his release of information; indeed it is his discretion which bolsters his credibility as a whistle-blower. I've criticised Manning for acting carelessly with the information he obtained, and his recklessness and indiscriminate leaking weakens his credibility as a whistle-blower. Snowden has correctly recognized that current surveillance tools in use by the government require a far greater degree of public scrutiny if they are to be used legitimately. He has released enough information to provoke the debate now occurring, and his actions therefor seem proportionate and measured.

    The debate needs to cover the criteria for surveillance of private citizens, the uses of information coming from that surveillance, and the exchange of that information with allies. I'm particularly interested to know about the stated purposes related to economic information. If they are looking for evidence of Chinese commercial spying to help China-based companies violate intellectual property rights, then I'm all for it. If they're looking to undermine fair trade deals by bargaining in bad faith, I'm less fond of it. If they're looking to supply commercially valuable intelligence to national companies, then they're as bad as the Chinese. These are reasonable questions. Your assumption that because we don't know the answers then their purposes must be noble and their behaviour above reproach is just laughable. They are reasonable questions to which we must demand reasonable answers. That you dismiss the questions as the product of paranoia is less amusing.

    The only conspiracy theory is the one you keep making up as you go so you can debunk it. We have an acknowledged program with acknowledged criteria: because you engage with "the foreigners," you're on the list. You never talk about that though, you talk about "well it never applies to americans talking to americans." I'm surprised you would accept merely by you speaking with a non-american that it makes you a person whose right to privacy should evaporate. In my view I can talk to whoever the fuck I like, via mail, telephone, e-mail, text, or smoke signal, foreign or not, and unless my government has relevant credible information that they should know more, they need to mind their own fucking business. I don't know why you think Americans should be entitled to less privacy from their government than I expect from mine.

    BTW, don't kid yourself about American capabilities being so special. It is clear the Brits do the same - it's been reported - and I would expect Australia and Canada to be participating as well. Your supposed safeguard, that the US doesn't spy on americans speaking only with other americans, falls apart even faster when your allies are doing that spying for you.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  24. #74
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Via Twitter from Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), 8/9/2013:

    BREAKING: Obama admin to release redacted FISA court opinion ruling some NSA spying unconstitutional to @EFF https://eff.org/r.b8YN
    The FISA Court in Electronic Frontier Foundation vs, Department of Justice has ordered the DoJ to produce:

    1. Opinions or orders finding that some Sec. 702 collections were "unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment;"

    2. Opinions or orders that Sec. 702 implementation procedures "circumvented the spirit of the law."

    The production is presently returnable 8/21/2013.

    Source: DoJ 8/9/2013 Status Report @ https://www.eff.org/document/doj-sta...-court-opinion

    I expect any production to be heavily redacted, but at least we may soon see a quasi-court opinion/order that the NSA is playing footloose and fancy free.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    "Given the history of abuse by governments, it's right to ask questions about surveillance, particularly as technology is reshaping every aspect of our lives," Mr. Obama said in a White House news conference. "It's not enough for me as president to have confidence in these programs. The American people need to have confidence in them, as well."
    Wise words, I may add them to my list of tag lines.

    He outlined some good steps today as well.

    The most significant proposal would restructure the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to provide for an advocate for privacy concerns. Mr. Obama is also seeking unspecified changes to the Patriot Act to increase oversight and place more constraints on the provision that permits government seizure of business records.
    A voice in the court representing the people's right to privacy is welcome but who will be that voice? It is a little frightening to think this secret court that is supposed to be protecting our rights hasn't had an actual adversarial voice speaking for the people before now? Oversight and constraint is also welcome but I would like to see what they are once they are no longer 'unspecified'.

    NSA will also create a privacy officer post.
    This step is not so assuring as it and the blue ribbon committee proposed is too often the government knee jerk reaction to public outrage that they really just want to go away but have to look like they are doing something. But hope springs eternal.

    Obama Proposes Surveillance-Policy Overhaul
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  26. #76
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    "Obama Proposes Surveillance-Policy Overhaul "

    That means Snowden is right therefore he should be free.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  27. #77
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Dude. [Text: Removed] If they choose to shut down instead of comply with a government warrant, then that is their choice. You don't get a choice whether to follow the law or not. We know very little about what caused this guy to shut down Lavabit, but we do know that Silent Circle shut down on their own accord, even admitting "we have not received subpoenas, warrants, security letters, or anything else by any government, and this is why we are acting now." This is not a case of government shutting down anyone. Neither is it the case the government shut down Lavabit. It's a bunch of drama queen websites capitalizing on the recent NSA information to try to drive home a point. But again, THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO SHUT THESE WEBSITES DOWN! They shut themselves down.
    You mean the media are lying to us and Mubarak is still in power? that there's no such thing as the Arab Spring?

    Wow. I'm amazed at this revelation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  28. #78
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The fact that the other end of your conversation occurs with a non-US national makes your private speech subject to monitoring by your government. Not just "metadata" but full, intrusive review, based on nothing other than the nationality of your correspondent.

    Snowden has been very judicious in his release of information; indeed it is his discretion which bolsters his credibility as a whistle-blower. I've criticised Manning for acting carelessly with the information he obtained, and his recklessness and indiscriminate leaking weakens his credibility as a whistle-blower. Snowden has correctly recognized that current surveillance tools in use by the government require a far greater degree of public scrutiny if they are to be used legitimately. He has released enough information to provoke the debate now occurring, and his actions therefor seem proportionate and measured.

    The debate needs to cover the criteria for surveillance of private citizens, the uses of information coming from that surveillance, and the exchange of that information with allies. I'm particularly interested to know about the stated purposes related to economic information. If they are looking for evidence of Chinese commercial spying to help China-based companies violate intellectual property rights, then I'm all for it. If they're looking to undermine fair trade deals by bargaining in bad faith, I'm less fond of it. If they're looking to supply commercially valuable intelligence to national companies, then they're as bad as the Chinese. These are reasonable questions. Your assumption that because we don't know the answers then their purposes must be noble and their behaviour above reproach is just laughable. They are reasonable questions to which we must demand reasonable answers. That you dismiss the questions as the product of paranoia is less amusing.

    The only conspiracy theory is the one you keep making up as you go so you can debunk it. We have an acknowledged program with acknowledged criteria: because you engage with "the foreigners," you're on the list. You never talk about that though, you talk about "well it never applies to americans talking to americans." I'm surprised you would accept merely by you speaking with a non-american that it makes you a person whose right to privacy should evaporate. In my view I can talk to whoever the fuck I like, via mail, telephone, e-mail, text, or smoke signal, foreign or not, and unless my government has relevant credible information that they should know more, they need to mind their own fucking business. I don't know why you think Americans should be entitled to less privacy from their government than I expect from mine.

    BTW, don't kid yourself about American capabilities being so special. It is clear the Brits do the same - it's been reported - and I would expect Australia and Canada to be participating as well. Your supposed safeguard, that the US doesn't spy on americans speaking only with other americans, falls apart even faster when your allies are doing that spying for you.
    First off, Snowden has not been judicious about what he has released. He gave everything he stole to Glenn Greenwald of the Guardian and he is publishing whatever he wants. Just the other day he was in Brazil and said he would soon be publishing information on the US intelligence activities against Brazil and other Latin American countries. That has nothing to do with alleged Constitutional violations. He gave everything to the press and now they're printing whatever they want. It goes well beyond trying to stimulate a debate, which he could have done via legal channels.

    Second, I see that you have a misunderstanding of the law. Allow me to clear that up for you.

    First, some background. Before the FISA Amendments Act, the FISA allowed the government access to only foreign-to-foreign communications that resided solely outside of the United States. So if a terrorist were to call a non-US citizen in the US, they couldn't collect that. If a terrorist called from Pakistan to Yemen and the communication went through switches in the US, the government couldn't collect that. This shortcoming was part of what was called out by the 9/11 commission report. So in order to address the holes in the system, Congress passed the FISA Amendments Act. This did a number of things:

    Section 702 allowed for the collection of communications with foreign intelligence value between two non-US citizens, but allowed that only one side of the communication had to be outside of the US. This closed the hole of foreigners outside of the US communicating with foreigners inside of the US. It did not allow for the collection of any communication involving a US citizen. We'll talk about that more later.

    Section 703 set the requirements for collection of communications of a US citizen outside of the United States from communications infrastructure within the United States. Unlike 702, this requires a specific and limited court order and the bar for obtaining said court order is higher than in 702.

    Section 704 set the requirements for collection of communications of a US citizen outside of the Unites States from communications infrastructure outside of the United States, and the requirements are generally the same as 703.

    The complete text of the law can be found here.

    So I'm assuming the part you're incorrectly arguing is the Section 702, so we'll address that. Section 702 restricts the collection using the following requirements (from the bill linked above):

    ‘(b) Limitations- An acquisition authorized under subsection (a)--

    ‘(1) may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States;

    ‘(2) may not intentionally target a person reasonably believed to be located outside the United States if the purpose of such acquisition is to target a particular, known person reasonably believed to be in the United States;

    ‘(3) may not intentionally target a United States person reasonably believed to be located outside the United States;

    ‘(4) may not intentionally acquire any communication as to which the sender and all intended recipients are known at the time of the acquisition to be located in the United States; and

    ‘(5) shall be conducted in a manner consistent with the fourth amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
    So as you can see above, the target cannot be a US person, it must be a foreigner outside of the US. You can also see as per provision 5 that the collection must be consistent with the Fourth Amendment. Thus, the idea that calling anyone outside of the US would subject a citizen of the US to monitoring of their communications just isn't true. If a call takes place inside the US, whether between two citizens, two foreigners, or any combination of such, those can't be collected. If a call takes place between a US citizen and a foreigner then, per the Fourth Amendment, those calls can't be collected unless certain criteria is met as mentioned in the legislation (enter the minimization procedures leaked by Snowden.) If a call takes place between a foreigner outside of the US and a non-citizen inside the US, then the collection is allowed under Section 702.

    My assumption is not that what they're doing is right simply be WE don't know the answers. My contention is that these laws and programs have been and are continuously reviewed by all three branches of government and they continue them. That is the system of checks and balances and oversight we have in the US. As I mentioned before, this is not a straight democracy. People don't get to vote on everything the government does. They elect representatives and those representatives make and enforce the laws.

    And you are not simply asking questions. You are making accusations and assuming facts which are not there. If you want to discuss alternatives and other solutions, then fine. But all that is being done here is claiming as truth that the government and the people who work for it are breaking the law and then demanding these programs end. That is not a well-informed debate and it is not being done by people who are willing to investigate and accept the outcome the facts point to.

    Really, the only conspiracies here, are the ones that you and others that think like you make up, without fact, that I argue against because of their lack of evidence. I'm not making these up. You guys are.

    And don't worry. I don't kid myself about America being the only country that does this. However, I think you kid yourself to think that these other countries have advanced systems to be on par with what the US has done. I would be willing to bet that other countries such as the UK, Canada, and Australia do participate and contribute to US efforts, but I would be willing to bet they ride the coat tails of the systems we have in place in order to achieve their objectives. And BTW, it is illegal for the US to "reverse target" people by either targeting foreigners in order to get information on Americans or go to other countries who can collect against Americans in order to circumvent what they can do. However, as always, I would gladly welcome any proof of that claim from your end. Otherwise, it's just another conspiracy theory.

    Finally, in real and practical terms, unless you're contacting terrorists, you don't have to worry about the government doing anything with your communications. They have finite resources and aren't going to worry about some guy calling his friend the UK (unless that friend is a terrorist they are watching, at which point, your communications should be monitored.)

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Via Twitter from Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), 8/9/2013:



    The FISA Court in Electronic Frontier Foundation vs, Department of Justice has ordered the DoJ to produce:

    1. Opinions or orders finding that some Sec. 702 collections were "unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment;"

    2. Opinions or orders that Sec. 702 implementation procedures "circumvented the spirit of the law."

    The production is presently returnable 8/21/2013.

    Source: DoJ 8/9/2013 Status Report @ https://www.eff.org/document/doj-sta...-court-opinion

    I expect any production to be heavily redacted, but at least we may soon see a quasi-court opinion/order that the NSA is playing footloose and fancy free.
    I'll be anxious to see it as well. I'm willing to bet it actually doesn't show the NSA playing "footloose and fancy free" and that it complies with all laws and court orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    "Obama Proposes Surveillance-Policy Overhaul "

    That means Snowden is right therefore he should be free.
    That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Maybe since the misdoings of Enron were the catalyst for various securities and financial overhauls, their guilt should be absolved as well, right? Just because Snowden spurred debate, doesn't mean he didn't break the law. He had legal avenues to report what he thought were wrongdoings. Stealing classified information and taking it upon himself to decide what he thinks is right and wrong and releasing information to news outlets is against the law. And the government is taking steps to assure the American public they're not doing anything wrong. They never said anything that was done was wrong as Snowden alleged. So I would argue that he isn't even "right".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You mean the media are lying to us and Mubarak is still in power? that there's no such thing as the Arab Spring?

    Wow. I'm amazed at this revelation.
    What? This doesn't even make sense or relate at all to what I said [Text: Removed]

  29. #79
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Only to those who don't listen.

    By making morality equal to the law, by making an attempt to uphold the spirit of the law equal to breaking the law, tiger shows he has no moral foundation, that whatever the law says is what is good and right and just.

    That's the core of tyranny. It's the assertion that law is law, and whatever it says is right -- an assertion that puts the lawmakers above all others, tossing all notions of equality and rights out the window.

    This is simple logic.
    Morality is subjective and depends on the person who is defining such morality. The law, for the most part, is objective and is expected to be followed by everyone. The law in this country is made by the representatives of those governed. The law is enforced by those directly elected. The law in this country is a reflection of the will of the populace. By your logic, I should have the right to kill someone if I feel that, for instance, their existence is in direct opposition to my unalienable right to the pursuit of happiness despite the fact that everyone else around me feels that I should be allowed to do so.

    And that is not the core of tyranny. The core of tyranny is the idea that one person's idea of what is right and wrong is supreme over the ideas of the society in which they live. So, you claiming that the law should be merely what each individual feels is moral, without regard to the rest of the society in which they live, is actually demonstrating that you are the tyrannical one sir.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    What? This doesn't even make sense or relate at all to what I said [Text: Removed]
    You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You don't get a choice whether to follow the law or not.
    So I responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You mean the media are lying to us and Mubarak is still in power? that there's no such thing as the Arab Spring?

    Wow. I'm amazed at this revelation.
    If "you don't get a choice", then there was no Arab Spring, because they didn't have that choice.

    What you don't get is that human beings are individuals in charge of themselves. The fact is that you don't NOT get a choice to follow the law or not -- it's a choice you can't avoid. Every day, you choose either to obey, or to not obey. When the light turns red, you choose to stop, or to go on through. When someone pisses you off, you choose to walk away, or to kill him, or to do something in between.

    To not have a choice is to not be human, to not be sentient.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    First off, Snowden has not been judicious about what he has released. He gave everything he stole to Glenn Greenwald of the Guardian and he is publishing whatever he wants. Just the other day he was in Brazil and said he would soon be publishing information on the US intelligence activities against Brazil and other Latin American countries. That has nothing to do with alleged Constitutional violations. He gave everything to the press and now they're printing whatever they want. It goes well beyond trying to stimulate a debate, which he could have done via legal channels.

    Second, I see that you have a misunderstanding of the law. Allow me to clear that up for you.

    First, some background. Before the FISA Amendments Act, the FISA allowed the government access to only foreign-to-foreign communications that resided solely outside of the United States. So if a terrorist were to call a non-US citizen in the US, they couldn't collect that. If a terrorist called from Pakistan to Yemen and the communication went through switches in the US, the government couldn't collect that. This shortcoming was part of what was called out by the 9/11 commission report. So in order to address the holes in the system, Congress passed the FISA Amendments Act. This did a number of things:

    Section 702 allowed for the collection of communications with foreign intelligence value between two non-US citizens, but allowed that only one side of the communication had to be outside of the US. This closed the hole of foreigners outside of the US communicating with foreigners inside of the US. It did not allow for the collection of any communication involving a US citizen. We'll talk about that more later.

    Section 703 set the requirements for collection of communications of a US citizen outside of the United States from communications infrastructure within the United States. Unlike 702, this requires a specific and limited court order and the bar for obtaining said court order is higher than in 702.

    Section 704 set the requirements for collection of communications of a US citizen outside of the Unites States from communications infrastructure outside of the United States, and the requirements are generally the same as 703.

    The complete text of the law can be found here.

    So I'm assuming the part you're incorrectly arguing is the Section 702, so we'll address that. Section 702 restricts the collection using the following requirements (from the bill linked above):



    So as you can see above, the target cannot be a US person, it must be a foreigner outside of the US. You can also see as per provision 5 that the collection must be consistent with the Fourth Amendment. Thus, the idea that calling anyone outside of the US would subject a citizen of the US to monitoring of their communications just isn't true. If a call takes place inside the US, whether between two citizens, two foreigners, or any combination of such, those can't be collected. If a call takes place between a US citizen and a foreigner then, per the Fourth Amendment, those calls can't be collected unless certain criteria is met as mentioned in the legislation (enter the minimization procedures leaked by Snowden.) If a call takes place between a foreigner outside of the US and a non-citizen inside the US, then the collection is allowed under Section 702.

    My assumption is not that what they're doing is right simply be WE don't know the answers. My contention is that these laws and programs have been and are continuously reviewed by all three branches of government and they continue them. That is the system of checks and balances and oversight we have in the US. As I mentioned before, this is not a straight democracy. People don't get to vote on everything the government does. They elect representatives and those representatives make and enforce the laws.

    And you are not simply asking questions. You are making accusations and assuming facts which are not there. If you want to discuss alternatives and other solutions, then fine. But all that is being done here is claiming as truth that the government and the people who work for it are breaking the law and then demanding these programs end. That is not a well-informed debate and it is not being done by people who are willing to investigate and accept the outcome the facts point to.

    Really, the only conspiracies here, are the ones that you and others that think like you make up, without fact, that I argue against because of their lack of evidence. I'm not making these up. You guys are.

    And don't worry. I don't kid myself about America being the only country that does this. However, I think you kid yourself to think that these other countries have advanced systems to be on par with what the US has done. I would be willing to bet that other countries such as the UK, Canada, and Australia do participate and contribute to US efforts, but I would be willing to bet they ride the coat tails of the systems we have in place in order to achieve their objectives. And BTW, it is illegal for the US to "reverse target" people by either targeting foreigners in order to get information on Americans or go to other countries who can collect against Americans in order to circumvent what they can do. However, as always, I would gladly welcome any proof of that claim from your end. Otherwise, it's just another conspiracy theory.

    Finally, in real and practical terms, unless you're contacting terrorists, you don't have to worry about the government doing anything with your communications. They have finite resources and aren't going to worry about some guy calling his friend the UK (unless that friend is a terrorist they are watching, at which point, your communications should be monitored.)


    I'll be anxious to see it as well. I'm willing to bet it actually doesn't show the NSA playing "footloose and fancy free" and that it complies with all laws and court orders.


    That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Maybe since the misdoings of Enron were the catalyst for various securities and financial overhauls, their guilt should be absolved as well, right? Just because Snowden spurred debate, doesn't mean he didn't break the law. He had legal avenues to report what he thought were wrongdoings. Stealing classified information and taking it upon himself to decide what he thinks is right and wrong and releasing information to news outlets is against the law. And the government is taking steps to assure the American public they're not doing anything wrong. They never said anything that was done was wrong as Snowden alleged. So I would argue that he isn't even "right".


    What? This doesn't even make sense or relate at all to what I said and further supports my beliefs on your comprehension skills.
    If Snowden is not right and doing good,
    why "Proposes Surveillance-Policy Overhaul " after the whistle blowing ?


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You said:



    So I responded:



    If "you don't get a choice", then there was no Arab Spring, because they didn't have that choice.

    What you don't get is that human beings are individuals in charge of themselves. The fact is that you don't NOT get a choice to follow the law or not -- it's a choice you can't avoid. Every day, you choose either to obey, or to not obey. When the light turns red, you choose to stop, or to go on through. When someone pisses you off, you choose to walk away, or to kill him, or to do something in between.

    To not have a choice is to not be human, to not be sentient.
    Ahhh, excuse me. You don't have a choice to follow the law or not without consequences.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    If Snowden is not right and doing good,
    why "Proposes Surveillance-Policy Overhaul " after the whistle blowing ?
    Did you actually listen to his speech? President Obama said he had ordered a review of all US intelligence operations well before Snowden's "revelations." Additionally, instituting further measures to assure the American people that they are not under surveillance is not the same as changing or eliminating the programs. Go back and read/watch the speech.

    And again, even if Snowden was a catalyst for starting a debate, that isn't a "get out of jail free" card. He broke the law. He doesn't get an automatic pardon because people are talking about what he released.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    NSA document released outlining some additional information on their collection authorities and practices.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And again, even if Snowden was a catalyst for starting a debate, that isn't a "get out of jail free" card. He broke the law. He doesn't get an automatic pardon because people are talking about what he released.
    Ah! so you act as judge, jury and executioner ....rejecting the common law principle that a man is innocent until proven otherwise.

    George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and many others were also guilty of breaking the law in their struggle to maintain the liberties of the people....I should imagine that they also would have attracted your condemnation, and judgement for daring to be catalysts for starting a debate....even a war, to defend those liberties.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Ah! so you act as judge, jury and executioner ....rejecting the common law principle that a man is innocent until proven otherwise.

    George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and many others were also guilty of breaking the law in their struggle to maintain the liberties of the people....I should imagine that they also would have attracted your condemnation, and judgement for daring to be catalysts for starting a debate....even a war, to defend those liberties.
    No, by Snowden's own admission, he formulated intent to commit a crime of stealing classified information. By his own admission he formulated a plan to flee from prosecution for his crimes. Fleeing from prosecution is a separate crime in this country. By his own admission, and by evidence provided by the international media, Snowden leaked classified information. For these crimes, by his own admission, he is guilty. Only Snowden can answer the question as to why since he premeditated crimes against the state, why he did not also choose to steal proof of the crimes that he is alleging that the state has committed. If he has proof of the crimes he is alleging, why has he not produced that proof.

    In alleging that the state is committing crimes against the people, Snowden has invoked the role of the prosecutor. In the United States, the prosecution has the obligation to produce the evidence of the crime alleged. We are, in effect, being told that crimes against the people are being committed, but we can't prove it. When everyone repeats these claims they are, in effect, joining in the prosecution. What several of us in this forum are saying is not that these allegations are not true, but to provide us some evidence that the crimes alleged are being committed. We work in a system that believes in innocence until proven guilty. That also applies to the government. The government is also innocent until proven guilty. There is no one in this debate saying that it is not happening, what some of us in this debate are saying, is to provide evidence of your allegations. The only evidence anyone has provided is hearsay evidence, and hearsay is not permitted in the United States Court of Law.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    No, by Snowden's own admission, he formulated intent to commit a crime of stealing classified information.
    It is your conjecture that Snowden has confessed to committing a crime...the rest of your comments are merely your personal interpretations of Edward Snowden's actions that indicate you have already judged, convicted and sentenced Snowden in accordance with your quick judgement to find Snowden guilty.

    Snowden has not confessed to committing a crime....merely informed the American public that they are under surveillance by people whom they believed are their protectors....not their prison warders.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    It is your conjecture that Snowden has confessed to committing a crime...the rest of your comments are merely your personal interpretations of Edward Snowden's actions that indicate you have already judged, convicted and sentenced Snowden in accordance with your quick judgement to find Snowden guilty.

    Snowden has not confessed to committing a crime....merely informed the American public that they are under surveillance by people whom they believed are their protectors....not their prison warders.
    Do you not remember the news stories where Snowden himself told interviewers that he did actions x y and z? By telling the media that he did actions x, y, and z, he has in fact admitted guilt. I have judged nothing. And you keep bringing up this idea of him being sentenced. You cannot sentence someone who had fled the jurisdiction and continues to elude justice.

    You are quickly becoming not worth my time.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    It is your conjecture that Snowden has confessed to committing a crime...the rest of your comments are merely your personal interpretations of Edward Snowden's actions that indicate you have already judged, convicted and sentenced Snowden in accordance with your quick judgement to find Snowden guilty.

    Snowden has not confessed to committing a crime....merely informed the American public that they are under surveillance by people whom they believed are their protectors....not their prison warders.
    Without arguing the wording or accuracy of your statement, that is the crime. You just admitted it yourself. He released classified information to uncleared sources. That is a crime. We seem to have no disagreement that he did that. Where the disagreement seems to lie is whether or not that should be a crime and, as current US law stands, it is a crime. Therefore, he has committed a crime.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Did you actually listen to his speech? President Obama said he had ordered a review of all US intelligence operations well before Snowden's "revelations." Additionally, instituting further measures to assure the American people that they are not under surveillance is not the same as changing or eliminating the programs. Go back and read/watch the speech.

    And again, even if Snowden was a catalyst for starting a debate, that isn't a "get out of jail free" card. He broke the law. He doesn't get an automatic pardon because people are talking about what he released.
    If the speech is AFTER Snowden's revelation, it is because of Snowden.
    That is why he made the speech to review or overhaul or what ever.


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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    If the speech is AFTER Snowden's revelation, it is because of Snowden.
    That is why he made the speech to review or overhaul or what ever.
    The review of the intelligence was before Snowden. The speech about the review (and the leaks by Snowden) was after Snowden. That is the timeline. It is incorrect and a faulty assumption to say that the review was because of Snowden, when it was started before his leaking.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    Do you not remember the news stories where Snowden himself told interviewers that he did actions x y and z? By telling the media that he did actions x, y, and z, he has in fact admitted guilt. I have judged nothing. And you keep bringing up this idea of him being sentenced. You cannot sentence someone who had fled the jurisdiction and continues to elude justice.

    You are quickly becoming not worth my time.
    Conjecture aspiring to be fact must be challenged...and I have so done...so be it.

    Edward Snowden's interviews have in no way incriminating him rather, they have entertained his audiences with a growing awareness that the United States Government has instituted surveillance on its own citizens that would be the envy of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Communist Russia...

    The world turned upside, down ... .thank you, Edward Snowden for exposing the hypocrisy of the American military and security establishment.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The review of the intelligence was before Snowden. The speech about the review (and the leaks by Snowden) was after Snowden. That is the timeline. It is incorrect and a faulty assumption to say that the review was because of Snowden, when it was started before his leaking.
    By five minutes...... when the powers that be understood that Snowden would begin sharing his revelations....the NSA must have soiled their pants when they realised what they were about to face....leading me to believe that their rapid resort to damage control was prompted by their awareness that the American public would become better informed.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Without arguing the wording or accuracy of your statement, that is the crime. You just admitted it yourself. He released classified information to uncleared sources. That is a crime. We seem to have no disagreement that he did that. Where the disagreement seems to lie is whether or not that should be a crime and, as current US law stands, it is a crime. Therefore, he has committed a crime.
    Until a competent court of law decides on the facts the issue is one of allegation.....don't let allegations stand in the way of your role as judge, jury and executioner.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Until a competent court of law decides on the facts the issue is one of allegation.....don't let allegations stand in the way of your role as judge, jury and executioner.
    Lol. Says the guy doing the judging.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Lol. Says the guy doing the judging.
    I leave that to others...while I remind people that whistle blowers make an important contribution to the democratic process....especially when matters of personal liberty are being compromised by government.....presuming to protect the rights of the citizen while snooping...to protect national security...of course!

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Throughout history, to achieve change, the greatest heroes had to commit crimes against their own countries. While their leaders were doing perfectly legal things that are being considered crimes (partly against humanity), today.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Throughout history, to achieve change, the greatest heroes had to commit crimes against their own countries. While their leaders were doing perfectly legal things that are being considered crimes (partly against humanity), today.
    Under the prevailing laws at the time they started, George Washington and the rest of the founding fathers were traitors. Not that I'm comparing Snowden to them.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Conjecture aspiring to be fact must be challenged...and I have so done...so be it.

    Edward Snowden's interviews have in no way incriminating him rather, they have entertained his audiences with a growing awareness that the United States Government has instituted surveillance on its own citizens that would be the envy of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Communist Russia...

    The world turned upside, down ... .thank you, Edward Snowden for exposing the hypocrisy of the American military and security establishment.
    His interviews have indeed incriminated him, since he specifically admitted to leaking the classified information. That is a crime. Regardless of the intent of the leaker, it is a crime to release classified information. And I'd like to hear more about the hypocrisy of the American military and security establishment. More specifically, what is hypocritical about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    By five minutes...... when the powers that be understood that Snowden would begin sharing his revelations....the NSA must have soiled their pants when they realised what they were about to face....leading me to believe that their rapid resort to damage control was prompted by their awareness that the American public would become better informed.
    Five minutes huh? Still sounds like before to me. If you recall, Snowden didn't admit to leaking the information until after it was leaked. And were the NSA to have known about it beforehand, they would have stopped the leak.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I leave that to others...while I remind people that whistle blowers make an important contribution to the democratic process....especially when matters of personal liberty are being compromised by government.....presuming to protect the rights of the citizen while snooping...to protect national security...of course!
    Snowden is not a whistleblower. He had legal means to pursue that status and didn't follow any of them. He is a leaker and, in my opinion, a traitor. He could have easily stimulated the debate by sending his information to Congress, a legally protected step for those who do work for the federal government to pursue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Throughout history, to achieve change, the greatest heroes had to commit crimes against their own countries. While their leaders were doing perfectly legal things that are being considered crimes (partly against humanity), today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Under the prevailing laws at the time they started, George Washington and the rest of the founding fathers were traitors. Not that I'm comparing Snowden to them.
    This is true. However, the cases in which this has happened, there are 2 distinct differences. The first is that the parties who did break the law had no legal means to pursue their concerns. The second, and most important, is that in these cases those who broke the law stood their ground, fought for what they believed, and prevailed. The original colonists didn't declare independence and then run away. People like Rosa Parks didn't sit at the front of the bus and then run away when the police were called. They face the consequences for their actions and fought for what they believed. Snowden released this information, which he had legal ways of bringing to the attention of those who are charged with making, enforcing, and interpreting the laws, and then ran away from any responsibility that came with that.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I would break the law if i think the law is unfair, un-reasonable or stupid. The end.


    Example:
    How many people have broken the law of prostitution ?


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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