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Thread: NSA data mining

      
   
  1. #1
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    NSA data mining

    and, it seems, both agencies are attempting to cover this up.

    The information shared includes “intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records,” and it’s problematic because it appears to break down the barrier between foreign counter-terrorism investigations and ordinary domestic criminal investigations.

    Because the SOD’s work is classified, DEA cases that began as NSA leads can’t be seen to have originated from a NSA source.

    So what does the DEA do? It makes up the story of how the agency really came to the case in a process known as “parallel construction.”
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...overing-it-up/

    and many other Agencies are clamoring to get their hands on this data as well.

    amazing how "keeping the American people safe" can be extended to cracking down on the local pot dealer as easily as an Al-Qaeda operative.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Trust us we are the government
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Prostitution and porn "might" be illegal so they use NSA to catch these people.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    NSA and BHP get together to share mining ideas.....BHP is gonna design an underground bunker to get all the aussie data collected for their American overlords...
    Your post comments are forwarded to the CIA.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I await arrival of our apologist posters to say concerns are unfounded. They seem to have more knowledge of these programs than most in Congress.


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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    and, it seems, both agencies are attempting to cover this up.



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...overing-it-up/

    and many other Agencies are clamoring to get their hands on this data as well.

    amazing how "keeping the American people safe" can be extended to cracking down on the local pot dealer as easily as an Al-Qaeda operative.
    Do you read any of the articles you link or ever bother to research?

    First, here is a link to a more complete description of how the DEA is conducting these parallel investigations: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97409R20130805

    The above is the source for the quotes below.

    A few snippets for you since that's apparently how you like to (mis)communicate the point of an article:

    The two senior DEA officials, who spoke on behalf of the agency but only on condition of anonymity, said the process is kept secret to protect sources and investigative methods. "Parallel construction is a law enforcement technique we use every day," one official said. "It's decades old, a bedrock concept."
    - It's only news now because the NSA is the easy target right now to generate more ancillary news stories.

    Today, the SOD offers at least three services to federal, state and local law enforcement agents: coordinating international investigations such as the Bout case; distributing tips from overseas NSA intercepts, informants, foreign law enforcement partners and domestic wiretaps; and circulating tips from a massive database known as DICE.

    The DICE database contains about 1 billion records, the senior DEA officials said. The majority of the records consist of phone log and Internet data gathered legally by the DEA through subpoenas, arrests and search warrants nationwide. Records are kept for about a year and then purged, the DEA officials said.
    - Sounds to me like the records are mostly from court-ordered subpoenas and warrants and the only NSA contributions come from their lawful overseas intercepts.

    Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst.
    - See above.

    Tips from domestic wiretaps typically occur when agents use information gleaned from a court-ordered wiretap in one case to start a second investigation.
    - Again, court-ordered. Sounds pretty legal to me.

    I saw this article earlier and figured someone would find some news sources who spin it to tie the NSA to it. That's the topic du jour and anything people find out about they'll try to tie to NSA "illegally spying on Americans."

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I await arrival of our apologist posters to say concerns are unfounded. They seem to have more knowledge of these programs than most in Congress.
    Did you read any of the letters? Mr. Griffith didn't post any of the responses he got to any of his letters and it's the House Permanent Committee on Intelligence that voted to withhold the requested information from Mr. Grayson, not the NSA. Do Mr. Grayson and Mr. Griffith have the appropriate security clearances to view said documents? Do they meet the storage requirements for storing classified data? Does their staff have all of the required security clearances? These are all questions that a) weren't asked or answered in the article and b) questions in which the House Committee is responsible for verifying the answers to. You can't just send classified information to someone's office. They have to have the clearances to be able to read it and they have to meet data storage standards (i.e. secured computer systems, safes for paper documents, etc.) Classified documents can only be viewed in a secured environment. See this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensiti...ation_Facility. Did the Committees offer to show the documents to the representatives in a secured environment and they demanded copies? The article answers none of these questions.

    So while I'm sure that these representatives didn't make these requests knowing they didn't meet the requirements and wanted to make a political stir of their own, I'm feeling we have little to no information on which to base an accurate determination on this matter.

    Looks like you're presenting, yet again, more sensational journalism which is endeavoring to keep their current stream of conspiracy theories running so they can generate readers and future news.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I await arrival of our apologist posters to say concerns are unfounded. They seem to have more knowledge of these programs than most in Congress.
    The timing of the embassy temporary closures might well suggest that the NSA and its associates are conducting a damage repair campaign with a view to justifying their self assumed rights to snoop as they please....

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Oh, and your article linking to other agencies "clamoring" to get their hands on the data NSA collects doesn't seem to indicate anything except that NSA protects data and doesn't distribute it unless it has a foreign intelligence purpose.

    From the article you linked:

    Intelligence officials say they have been careful to limit the use of the security agency’s troves of data and eavesdropping spyware for fear they could be misused in ways that violate Americans’ privacy rights.
    But out of public view, the intelligence community has been agitated in recent years for the opposite reason: frustrated officials outside the security agency say the spy tools are not used widely enough.
    But more often, their requests have been rejected because the links to terrorism or foreign intelligence, usually required by law or policy, are considered tenuous.
    Decisions on using the security agency’s powers rest on many complicated variables, including a link to terrorism or “foreign intelligence,” the type of surveillance or data collection that is being conducted, the involvement of American targets, and the priority of the issue.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Looks like you're presenting, yet again, more sensational journalism which is endeavoring to keep their current stream of conspiracy theories running so they can generate readers and future news.
    It's all conspiracy theories....where have we heard that before.....it's the predictable counter offensive demonising those who dare question the NSAs self assumed right to snoop as it pleases them.....character assassination might well be the reward for those legislators who dare to question the NSAs activities.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The timing of the embassy temporary closures might well suggest that the NSA and its associates are conducting a damage repair campaign with a view to justifying their self assumed rights to snoop as they please....
    Or maybe they detected a terrorist threat and issued a warning. Should they have a cool down period for terrorist warnings so they don't appear to be covering anything up? Or do you think it would be better for the attacks to just happen so people can talk about the next Benghazi?

    Good ole' kallipolis - finding a conspiracy in everything.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    It's all conspiracy theories....where have we heard that before.....it's the predictable counter offensive demonising those who dare question the NSAs self assumed right to snoop as it pleases them.....character assassination might well be the reward for those legislators who dare to question the NSAs activities.
    I'm sorry, but a lack of facts in anything posted has to do with forming basic logical arguments. Additionally, there is no character assassination here sir. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the concept before throwing around accusations. If anything, people of your ilk are involved in the character assassination of the NSA, the US government, and the people who work for those entities with absolutely zero facts to back anything up.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm sorry, but a lack of facts in anything posted has to do with forming basic logical arguments. Additionally, there is no character assassination here sir. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the concept before throwing around accusations. If anything, people of your ilk are involved in the character assassination of the NSA, the US government, and the people who work for those entities with absolutely zero facts to back anything up.
    Don't feel sorry, ever.... the issue is not facts, for the facts speak effectively...the issue is denial by the NSA that it is engaged in snooping on United States citizens...for the NSA understands very well that terrorists are as likely to be United States citizens as they are foreigners cue Timothy McVeigh....the rest is denial and character assassination a practice familiar to those engaged in deception the very life blood of intelligence organisations.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Don't feel sorry, ever.... the issue is not facts, for the facts speak effectively...the issue is denial by the NSA that it is engaged in snooping on United States citizens...for the NSA understands very well that terrorists are as likely to be United States citizens as they are foreigners cue Timothy McVeigh....the rest is denial and character assassination a practice familiar to those engaged in deception the very life blood of intelligence organisations.
    The issue is indeed facts - the lack of them. There are no facts presented to show NSA spies on Americans. Your presentation of Timothy McVeigh and the fact that there can be American terrorists are not facts. The FBI deals with domestic terrorism, not the NSA. I think the fact that the Tsarnevs were able to pull off the Boston bombings despite being given an unsubstantiated tip by the Russians with no supporting evidence that they may be a danger, shows the extent to which the government works to protect the rights of Americans. If we lived in the world you claim that we do, the NSA could have easily gathered any information they ever generated and found e-mails and phone calls that contained information about their intents and the FBI could have searched anything they wanted and found the bags, pressure cookers, and fireworks they used to make the bombs. However, all that happened was the FBI questioned (in a voluntary manner) the older brother because that's all they could do without evidence from the Russians.

    Again, the character assassination is coming from people like you. You have no facts, you make wild conjecture, and you try to demonize a group of people.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Your presentation of Timothy McVeigh and the fact that there can be American terrorists are not facts.
    The NSA does not restrict its snooping activities to those it knows are not United States citizens for to so do would be to deny the very evident fact that terrorists are just as likely to be United States citizens cue Timothy McVeigh..... to imagine that the NSA deliberately does not snoop on United States citizens is to further imagine that, that intelligence organisation does not accept the very real proven fact that United States citizens can also commit acts of terrorism cue Timothy McVeigh....it would be a considerable act of faith to believe that the NSA excludes United States citizens from its surveillance simply because of legal complications.

    Most of us posting know very well the responsibilities of the various government agencies involved in law enforcement

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The NSA does not restrict its snooping activities to those it knows are not United States citizens for to so do would be to deny the very evident fact that terrorists are just as likely to be United States citizens cue Timothy McVeigh..... to imagine that the NSA deliberately does not snoop on United States citizens is to further imagine that, that intelligence organisation does not accept the very real proven fact that United States citizens can also commit acts of terrorism cue Timothy McVeigh....it would be a considerable act of faith to believe that the NSA excludes United States citizens from its surveillance simply because of legal complications.

    Most of us posting know very well the responsibilities of the various government agencies involved in law enforcement
    Yet again, you make another post with absolutely no evidence or fact to back up your conjecture. Until you can provide any evidnce at all that the NSA spies on Americans, your claims are nothing but a paranoid conspiracy THEORY. The NSA is prohibited by law from spying on Americans. The NSA has said repeatedly it doesn't spy on Americans. There has been no evidence provided that shows NSA spies on Americans. The burden of proof is on you to show that they spy on Americans. And invoking the name Timothy McVeigh doesn't provide any evidence at all to your claims.

    And your posts, including repeating the same thing over and over again (I see you're borrowing a line from the Republican playbook about repeating a lie over and over until people believe it's true), demonstrate that you clearly don't understand very well anything about law enforcement activities and, in fact, can't even seem to grasp the difference between law enforcement and foreign intelligence activities.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Whatever.

    The DoJ will examine the Special Operations Division unit of the DEA.

    U.S. to review DEA unit that hides use of intel in crime cases
    http://news.yahoo.com/u-review-dea-u...231618737.html

    Kind of like the fox guarding the hen house, but we'll see.

    (Parallel construction does have a creative ring to it. Much better than cooked evidence or even probable cause.)

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Whatever.

    The DoJ will examine the Special Operations Division unit of the DEA.



    http://news.yahoo.com/u-review-dea-u...231618737.html

    Kind of like the fox guarding the hen house, but we'll see.

    (Parallel construction does have a creative ring to it. Much better than cooked evidence or even probable cause.)
    Since you're obviously so good at research, see if you can run down the "confidential documents" Reuters and others seem to reference as the whole basis of their article but not actually provide. You clamor for all of this classified information from the government, but seem to give the media a pass in providing it for your review because their article just happens to support your anti-government position. They write these articles on how freedom is being violated and secrets are being kept, but they continuously reference "classified" or "sensitive" documents that they have but won't provide. It brings into question whether these documnts, in their entirety, actually disprove the point of the article they are writing.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    It's only news now because the NSA is the easy target right now to generate more ancillary news stories.
    You misunderstand.

    It's news because the NSA is not authorized to spy on Americans. But the DEA is using the NSA to spy on Americans. Both agencies are exceeding their authority, in violation of US law.

    The United States is a nation of laws. Why aren't we enforcing them? You seem to have the opinion that obeying the law is optional for intelligence agencies. Why do you think that?

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I await arrival of our apologist posters to say concerns are unfounded. They seem to have more knowledge of these programs than most in Congress.

    Members of Congress denied access to basic information about NSA
    Especially with bits like this:
    Rep. Griffith requested information about the NSA from the House Intelligence Committee six weeks ago, on June 25. He asked for "access to the classified FISA court order(s) referenced on Meet the Press this past weekend": a reference to my raising with host David Gregory the still-secret 2011 86-page ruling from the FISA court that found substantial parts of NSA domestic spying to be in violation of the Fourth Amendment as well as governing surveillance statutes.
    So they violate the law in secret, and keep the rulings that they've violated the law secret....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post

    And your posts, including repeating the same thing over and over again.
    Merely repaying with the same coin that you toss into the ring....knowing that your repetitive posts are designed to stonewall....a practice familiar to Republican supporters.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Especially with bits like this:


    So they violate the law in secret, and keep the rulings that they've violated the law secret....
    ...and with impunity....

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Since you're obviously so good at research, see if you can run down the "confidential documents" Reuters and others seem to reference as the whole basis of their article but not actually provide. You clamor for all of this classified information from the government, but seem to give the media a pass in providing it for your review because their article just happens to support your anti-government position. They write these articles on how freedom is being violated and secrets are being kept, but they continuously reference "classified" or "sensitive" documents that they have but won't provide. It brings into question whether these documnts, in their entirety, actually disprove the point of the article they are writing.
    Read. NRN.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    You misunderstand.

    It's news because the NSA is not authorized to spy on Americans. But the DEA is using the NSA to spy on Americans. Both agencies are exceeding their authority, in violation of US law.

    The United States is a nation of laws. Why aren't we enforcing them? You seem to have the opinion that obeying the law is optional for intelligence agencies. Why do you think that?
    Did you read the article I linked from Reuters (the original source of the story)? The DEA is NOT using the NSA to spy on Americans. The only contributions NSA makes to the program, as stated in the article, is to provide foreign intercepts to the DEA for their enforcement. So if Drug Lord Bob in Colombia is heard saying that they are shipping 10 tons of cocaine to the US, then the NSA gives that info to the DEA. Everything else it said is compiled from various lawful sources based on subpoenas and warrants for wiretaps. Go back and read the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Especially with bits like this:


    So they violate the law in secret, and keep the rulings that they've violated the law secret....
    We will see when the ruling is released since the FISA court has said it can be released under FOIA.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Merely repaying with the same coin that you toss into the ring....knowing that your repetitive posts are designed to stonewall....a practice familiar to Republican supporters.
    My arguments don't accuse people of crimes without proof. My arguments accuse people of making accusations without proof. The proof of that is in all of your posts, which you have yet to provide any evidence for. My replies don't stonewall anything. They are attempts to actually progress an informed argument by asking for evidence. You have yet to provide any so you are the one actually stonewalling.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Read. NRN.
    Read what? I've read the articles and haven't found any links to the documents they reference.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Did you read the article I linked from Reuters (the original source of the story)? The DEA is NOT using the NSA to spy on Americans. The only contributions NSA makes to the program, as stated in the article, is to provide foreign intercepts to the DEA for their enforcement.
    According the The Washington Post, both the NSA and DEA are covering up the source of their leads. It is believed that the leads are coming from the bulk phone data the NSA is collecting on all Americans.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...overing-it-up/

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    According the The Washington Post, both the NSA and DEA are covering up the source of their leads. It is believed that the leads are coming from the bulk phone data the NSA is collecting on all Americans.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...overing-it-up/
    The United States media actually confirming all that the UK media has been reporting for some months.

    There are those who will continue to deny, stonewall and attempt to whitewash the snooping activities of the NSA on United States citizens....preferring to live in their Alice in Wonderland make believe world remote from reality.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I have to agree with Tigerfan on this. So far there has been no evidence offered by anyone. And circumstantial evidence or conjucture do not build a case.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    According the The Washington Post, both the NSA and DEA are covering up the source of their leads. It is believed that the leads are coming from the bulk phone data the NSA is collecting on all Americans.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...overing-it-up/
    Exactly. That's why I linked to Reuters because they have less of a political agenda than the Washington Post or the Guardian. You also linked a Washington Post BLOG, which is highly opinionated, and it looks like the blog post has been updated with this"

    Correction: This piece originally described the information provided to the DEA as “Section 702 phone records,” but the Reuters report doesn’t specifically identify the type of information shared. The article has been edited accordingly.
    I love it when these stories like the one posted last week from the Daily Kos about this woman having her Google searches monitored by NSA and the terrorism task force visiting her house. They make the huge elaborate stories up about the NSA spying on them and them have to retract them because the truth starts to show.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The United States media actually confirming all that the UK media has been reporting for some months.

    There are those who will continue to deny, stonewall and attempt to whitewash the snooping activities of the NSA on United States citizens....preferring to live in their Alice in Wonderland make believe world remote from reality.
    I prefer to live in a fact-based, logical world and not some fantasy Orwellian world where the burden of proof for the government to show they're not spying on Americans is infinite and the burden of proof for anyone else to show the government is some evil bad guy is minuscule, if it exists at all. The US media hasn't confirmed anything. Operating off of a couple of quotes from "unnamed sources" and "recently obtained documents" that they refuse to print isn't confirmation of anything. It's the beginning of a good fictional spy novel.

    And again, you are the the perfect example of stonewalling. In just about every post I've written in response to your's, I have asked for proof or evidence of any of your claims and you have yet to provide a single shred of it in any one of them and instead have just responded with half answers and philosophical retorts. That is the vey definition of stonewalling.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post

    I prefer to live in a fact-based, logical world and not some fantasy Orwellian world
    .
    Your world is best described as deceptive, and in deep denial....garnished with spoonfuls of stonewalling....your choice, and you are welcome to its many self assumed fantasies.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    I have to agree with Tigerfan on this. So far there has been no evidence offered by anyone. And circumstantial evidence or conjucture do not build a case.
    You really expect the NSA to provide the media and Congress with "impeachable" evidence that convicts it of transgressing The Constitution...

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You really expect the NSA to provide the media and Congress with "impeachable" evidence that convicts it of transgressing The Constitution...
    Well then case closed, right? There is no evidence, therefore there is no crime. That's the principle on which the judicial system works in America and the rest of the civilized world.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Well then case closed, right? There is no evidence, therefore there is no crime. That's the principle on which the judicial system works in America and the rest of the civilized world.
    Evidence sufficient to convict is not yet available...but the evidence that Edward Snowden has made available indicates that the evidence is being with held for obvious reasons.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Evidence sufficient to convict is not yet available...but the evidence that Edward Snowden has made available indicates that the evidence is being with held for obvious reasons.
    "Indicates" is suspicion. Suspicion is not proof. Without proof - whether withheld or simply imaginary - there is no case, and without a case this conversation is pointless. You can think whatever you want. But until you have something actual and specific, something not "indicated" but proven, you have no base to stand on in the conversation.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    "Indicates" is suspicion. Suspicion is not proof. Without proof - whether withheld or simply imaginary - there is no case, and without a case this conversation is pointless. You can think whatever you want. But until you have something actual and specific, something not "indicated" but proven, you have no base to stand on in the conversation.
    This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.
    We don't need the NSA to provide evidence for anything. If Snowden had all of the access he claimed, he should have easily been able to get and provide evidence. As of now, he hasn't provided any so his claims of spying on Americans have no factual basis. All this is right now is paranoia and luckily it's limited to the people who already hate the government.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.
    It's not a tribunal, but then again it shouldn't be a gossip column either, don't you agree? I respect your careful use of words but I disagree with the statement they frame, and if there is no proof for it, this becomes just completely pointless.

    And we both know that NO proof AT ALL is necessary to convince the general public that the NSA is snooping on US citizens. US citizens think their government is out to get them 24/7.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Your world is best described as deceptive, and in deep denial....garnished with spoonfuls of stonewalling....your choice, and you are welcome to its many self assumed fantasies.
    Having had conversations with Tigerfan, I can tell you that deception and denial are not the worlds neither Tigerfan nor I live in.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You really expect the NSA to provide the media and Congress with "impeachable" evidence that convicts it of transgressing The Constitution...
    I do not expect the NSA to provide anyone with anything without a court order. I do not expect any government office to provide anything to anyone without a court order.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Evidence sufficient to convict is not yet available...but the evidence that Edward Snowden has made available indicates that the evidence is being with held for obvious reasons.
    Edward Snowden has not offered any evidence of any wrongdoing by the NSA or anyone else. The only thing Edward Snowden has offered is hearsay testimony. The only thing Edward Snowden has offered proof of is that there was a warrant issued to gather metadata. He has not issued proof that this data was being used in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.
    Okay, first, Snowden was not an employee of the NSA. He was he employee of a contractor who had a contract with the NSA. This employee of the contractor has offered no evidence, only hearsay testimony and conjecture. If constitutionally acceptable evidence were available, we would be watching a trial in the media and in the courts. You are correct, constitutionally acceptable evidence of a crime is not necessary to convict in the court of public opinion, just look at the United States Tabloids, the general public will believe anything you tell them. You are not arguing to the general public in this forum. There is a reason we are typing words in this forum instead of watching the drivel on network television. I was a sociology major in college. I put an emphasis on the criminology component of Sociology, and I have taken many college level criminology classes. I also happen to read mysteries, and write fiction in the mystery genre. The facts in this so called case, are insufficient for me as a criminologist, Do not provide a believable story line as a mystery reader, and fail to give me any thing to work with as a writer. I WRITE FICTION, and this isn't enough for me to work with to write a good story.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    "Indicates" is suspicion. Suspicion is not proof. Without proof - whether withheld or simply imaginary - there is no case, and without a case this conversation is pointless. You can think whatever you want. But until you have something actual and specific, something not "indicated" but proven, you have no base to stand on in the conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It's not a tribunal, but then again it shouldn't be a gossip column either, don't you agree? I respect your careful use of words but I disagree with the statement they frame, and if there is no proof for it, this becomes just completely pointless.

    And we both know that NO proof AT ALL is necessary to convince the general public that the NSA is snooping on US citizens. US citizens think their government is out to get them 24/7.
    "Indicates" is marginally, suspicion. One "indicates" is coincidence. Two or three "indicates" may give suspicion, and might be enough to follow the "suspect" down the street to see if he throws anything on the sidewalk that could be considered "evidence". Then, if you see him throw it on the ground, and you protect the "chain of custody", it becomes evidence. But evidence can be refuted. Just because you saw him throw it on the ground, doesn't mean that he wrote it he could have gotten it from any number of sources.

    Yes, there is a mistrust of the government that pervades our society. It doesn't help public perception when some members of the government, specific individuals or entities, do things that erode public perception. Things like partisanship and illegal acts further erode trust in the government. So, yes, there is some government mistrust. There are degrees, personally, I do not feel like my government is out to get me, but I know that there are individuals in the government who would have no problem subverting resources at their disposal to benefit themselves or other individuals or entities around them. And we have to admit that a biased media does contribute to the public mistrust a great deal.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    We don't need the NSA to provide evidence for anything. If Snowden had all of the access he claimed, he should have easily been able to get and provide evidence. As of now, he hasn't provided any so his claims of spying on Americans have no factual basis. All this is right now is paranoia and luckily it's limited to the people who already hate the government.
    Actually, currently, the evidence would have to come from a source other than Snowden, His chain of custody has been violated more times than a rent boy.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post





    Okay, first, Snowden was not an employee of the NSA. He was he employee of a contractor who had a contract with the NSA. This employee of the contractor has offered no evidence, only hearsay testimony and conjecture.
    That a contractor paid by the NSA, paid Snowden's salary in no way invalidates the fact that Edward Snowden's work with the NSA enabled him to have access to material that the United States deemed sufficiently sensitive to demand his extradition from Russia. Were Snowden's access to NSA secrets per his revelations not damaging to the NSA why would the United States authorities want to prosecute him?

    Were fiction the matter under discussion on this thread we would not be holding this discussion. Were Snowden's damaging revelations fictional the United States authorities would not be demanding Snowden's extradition..were fiction the issue President Obama would not have cancelled his visit to Moscow.

    If the matter under discussion here were mere hearsay, and conjecture Congress would not have debated the matter.

    Damage control is of paramount importance for the NSA to enable this agency to continue its practice of snooping on United States citizens without credible oversight from Congress....and it is succeeding....for there are those Americans determined that the NSA should continue with its deceptive practices....for national security purposes......

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It's not a tribunal, but then again it shouldn't be a gossip column either, don't you agree? I respect your careful use of words but I disagree with the statement they frame, and if there is no proof for it, this becomes just completely pointless.

    And we both know that NO proof AT ALL is necessary to convince the general public that the NSA is snooping on US citizens. US citizens think their government is out to get them 24/7.
    Gay sites are notorious for their gossiping ....this site is no exception.....for it thrives on gossiping.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    So basically you agree that what you've been doing for the past few weeks has been idle gossiping? Good to know.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That a contractor paid by the NSA, paid Snowden's salary in no way invalidates the fact that Edward Snowden's work with the NSA enabled him to have access to material that the United States deemed sufficiently sensitive to demand his extradition from Russia. Were Snowden's access to NSA secrets per his revelations not damaging to the NSA why would the United States authorities want to prosecute him?
    They're after him because he broke the law and stole state secrets. No one is making the argument what he took wasn't damaging. The government has said as much. What we're arguing is that just because it is damaging doesn't mean that anything unconstitutional is going on. You would see the same reaction if Snowden had stolen the launch codes for a nuclear weapon. Your logic of "because the information is damaging it must be about illegal activities" is ludicrous (and, again, not really based on facts.)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Were fiction the matter under discussion on this thread we would not be holding this discussion. Were Snowden's damaging revelations fictional the United States authorities would not be demanding Snowden's extradition..were fiction the issue President Obama would not have cancelled his visit to Moscow.

    If the matter under discussion here were mere hearsay, and conjecture Congress would not have debated the matter.
    Is this sarcasm or a joke? I could sit down and have a day long discussion with someone about the Game of Thrones books or the TV series Archer, yet that doesn't make them reality. You are drawing an indefensible conclusion that because the United States is going after someone who stole state secrets and broken the law, then that is proof positive they are spying on Americans. You're making the insane argument that because President Obama cancelled his meeting with Putin due to the fact Putin gave asylum to a fugitive from US justice, it can only lead to the conclusion the US is violating the Constitution. And I won't even get started on Congress, a group which debates everything from whether two guys can have sex in the privacy of their own home to whether to issue a resolution congratulating the Little League team in Buttfuck, Idaho on their most recent win.

    Every one of your posts drifts not only further from any logical, evidence based argument, but further from reality and any coherent statements in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Damage control is of paramount importance for the NSA to enable this agency to continue its practice of snooping on United States citizens without credible oversight from Congress....and it is succeeding....for there are those Americans determined that the NSA should continue with its deceptive practices....for national security purposes......
    And for this, we'll go back to the usual - do you have any evidence to support anything you said here? I'll agree damage control is paramount to NSA because some traitor is out there running around with state secrets about how the NSA accomplishes its missions of foreign intelligence and that's not something you want adversaries to have. Everything else you stated is mere opinion (and poorly based opinion at that) that you have not and will not be able to ever produce any evidence to support. You would serve your cause better by just coming out and saying "I hate the US Government" instead of making yourself look ill-informed by making arguments that are....ill informed.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    We don't need the NSA to provide evidence for anything. If Snowden had all of the access he claimed, he should have easily been able to get and provide evidence. As of now, he hasn't provided any so his claims of spying on Americans have no factual basis. All this is right now is paranoia and luckily it's limited to the people who already hate the government.
    What a twisted world you live in.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    Okay, first, Snowden was not an employee of the NSA. He was he employee of a contractor who had a contract with the NSA. This employee of the contractor has offered no evidence, only hearsay testimony and conjecture. If constitutionally acceptable evidence were available, we would be watching a trial in the media and in the courts. You are correct, constitutionally acceptable evidence of a crime is not necessary to convict in the court of public opinion, just look at the United States Tabloids, the general public will believe anything you tell them. You are not arguing to the general public in this forum. There is a reason we are typing words in this forum instead of watching the drivel on network television. I was a sociology major in college. I put an emphasis on the criminology component of Sociology, and I have taken many college level criminology classes. I also happen to read mysteries, and write fiction in the mystery genre. The facts in this so called case, are insufficient for me as a criminologist, Do not provide a believable story line as a mystery reader, and fail to give me any thing to work with as a writer. I WRITE FICTION, and this isn't enough for me to work with to write a good story.
    Yeah -- not enough blood. Dry analysis and investigative reporting just don't sell these days.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I could sit down and have a day long discussion with someone about the Game of Thrones books...
    ...and just like that, you lost all of your coolness factor (._. )
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    I told a friend here yesterday he really should get a phone.

    He said he didn't want the NSA to know where he is....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Exactly. That's why I linked to Reuters because they have less of a political agenda than the Washington Post or the Guardian. You also linked a Washington Post BLOG, which is highly opinionated, and it looks like the blog post has been updated with this"
    The problem is that the information is classified.

    You demand proof over significant circumstantial evidence when all parties are prohibited from examining the evidence. You require the impossible as a condition for disproving your thesis.

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What a twisted world you live in.
    And some.....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The problem is that the information is classified.

    You demand proof over significant circumstantial evidence when all parties are prohibited from examining the evidence. You require the impossible as a condition for disproving your thesis.
    Eureka!.......................

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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    To further cement T-Rexx's quote, have a look at the statement of the now closed http://lavabit.com/ - an US-based e-mail service that made privacy a #1 priority after the founder wasn't happy with google's policies.
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    Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

    ^ How sad that is. This is the first I've ever heard of lavabit.

    *****************
    Oh, if only Obama's decision not to participate included a statement about Russian Soviet antigay laws (Yes, the Soviet Union really does seem to have reassembled, minus its satellite regions, doesn't it?), in addition to the Snowden thing. Well, that's starting to gather steam, though.
    Capitalize when needed. Did you help your Uncle Jack off a horse, or help your uncle jack off a horse?
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