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  1. #151
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post

    I think you might be conflating a bunch of things into a point nobody made. If some guy wants to play SA - I frankly don't care, it's just going to make me avoid him probably.

    Discussion of the term, it's origins, and why it gets used isn't saying that it will bring fire down on our heads.

    Straight people don't give a fuck and are NOT going to say, oh look at Bob, he's a "Straight Acting" Gay, they are just going to say he's gay.

    On the ground the only people who obsess over this are usually the guys who call themselves SA.
    This. A lot. SA is only used between gay men, it has no bearing on straights. And I agree with the rest too.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  2. #152

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I don't agree with your "definition" of SA.

    I do find it funny that people keep trying to tell me about loathe this and passionate that - at least twice I pointed out that on the ground this is relatively minor in at least my life, and that net discussions go like this.

    I can only conclude that you are trying to mis-characterize my fervor for some mischievous reason of your own.
    You don't have to agree with my definition. You're not even using the term. You're trying to tell people how they see and define themselves.

  3. #153
    The gay gargoyle G-Lexington's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by blackbeltninja View Post
    It does matter, though. You get like 50 words to play with on these online sites. You could write an essay, or you could write "straight-acting" and we'd all know what you mean, and you'd still have 48 other words to bait your profile with. To me it's a simple transfer of theoretically unambiguous information, not a distinction of us vs them.
    Well, as I said in my post, it's a term that will attract eyeballs, and create reactions, both positive and negative. I'm assuming the positives outweigh the negatives, but I don't think you'll be able to convince everybody who has a negative reaction that they're reading your ad wrong.

    On that note, I don't think my being straight acting makes me better than you.
    I see and hear this comment a lot. And my belief is that it's said far more often than it's meant. You may be completely sincere, but I don't know if everybody who says it is.

    Is that any different from being a bigger guy but not identifying and playing the role of a bear or cub? I may be new to the whole homo thing, but I'm under the impression that "bear" is an entire sub-culture of gay. But it doesn't have the same negative connotations attached to it as straight-acting does, even though if someone says "I'm a bear" we all know exactly what he means. So if a guy says "I'm big, but I'm not into the bear thing" are we going to write him off as self-loathing/deluded/smug/your epithet here?
    Well, *I* wouldn't, but then again, I'm trying to comprehend the other side through all this. (I personally have little to no response to "straight-acting".) And I'd say a bear would have every right to be offended by "I'm big but I'm not into the bear thing"...not that it's any big deal, as the guy placing the ad obviously isn't going to be interested in him anyway. But back to the point. The guy placing the ad doesn't actually have to say "I'm not into the bear scene". Why? Because if he were, he'd presumably say so. He'd just say "I'm a bear" or "I'm a cub" or whatever he would identify as. I don't know if I'd look at any online ad where a guy said "I'm big" and immediately think "I bet he's got a closet full of leather".

    Lex

  4. #154
    26354 MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    Then perhaps a question was skipped. To the question "Are 'trying not to appear gay' and 'not intentionally trying to seem gay', to you, the same thing?" you answered yes. So let me ask this question:

    "Are (intentionally or not) trying not to appear gay" and "not appearing gay, without any 'trying' on his part", to you, the same thing?

    Lex
    I've already answered this in my posts.

  5. #155
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Society teaches that nerdiness is bad.

    I watch tons of sci fi.

    Assigning to me participating in persecution or harm to others based on how I self-describe is out of line.
    That's not been the case in over a decade. Not since Zuckerberg, Gates, Jobs and all the other nerds became billionaires.

    Also, nerds haven't been ostracized from every aspect of life and religion doesn't hate them. False equivalence IS indeed false.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  6. #156
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I see and hear this comment a lot. And my belief is that it's said far more often than it's meant. You may be completely sincere, but I don't know if everybody who says it is.
    I honestly think that is off the point for the purposes of self description or self conception. Many people could (and do) interpret a white identity as an anti-minority identity, as an example. But I don't think anyone would tell white people they should call themselves black or own their blackness to get away from this.

  7. #157
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post

    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex
    My point exactly, and it bears repeating.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  8. #158
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That's not been the case in over a decade. Not since Zuckerberg, Gates, Jobs and all the other nerds became billionaires.

    Also, nerds haven't been ostracized from every aspect of life and religion doesn't hate them. False equivalence IS indeed false.
    Also along with what you're saying, I've seen a decrease over the course of my life in the negative connotation of being gay. That's a good thing, of course.

    I think honestly this could boil down to: is it wrong to be (or feel) gay and masculine. Because expression of it seems to be cause for offense.

  9. #159
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    The only reason for that is because guys like you seem intent on smearing the terminology. I'll repeat blackbeltninja's excellent comment:
    The terminology is smeared by the homophobic psychology at its very core. We didn't smear it and you can't unsmear it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  10. #160
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    You don't have to agree with my definition. You're not even using the term. You're trying to tell people how they see and define themselves.


    Wow, it's nice to be appreciated.

    OH COME ON! What does that even mean. It's pretty much just a wordier version of "you stink."
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  11. #161
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Let me answer your question with a question.

    Why is stereotyping yourself in one set of proscribed, community-approved ways okay, positive and self-affirming, and others are not? Do we agree on those categories?
    Because the community as a whole rarely "approves" things based on how they affect minorities. Just because straight people think being straight is better than being gay, doesn't mean WE have to.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  12. #162
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Lex, the homosexual community at this very moment is not doing a very good job of making me feel welcome or included.
    Well, if you act more straight, maybe the straight community will? Or wait, they aren't fooled.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  13. #163

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post


    Wow, it's nice to be appreciated.

    OH COME ON! What does that even mean. It's pretty much just a wordier version of "you stink."
    You have told people who use the phrase SA what they think and why they use it. My post means exactly what it said.
    Whether you disagree with their definition doesn't matter because they are using it to describe themselves and only themselves.

  14. #164
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    As blackbelt noted, that its straight and masculine that are not synonymous like you first said, but straight-acting and masculine ARE.

    If i then ask myself why i don't just use masculine, its because that doesn't identify someone as gay, it identifies them as male or man-like.
    And people on a hook up/dating site/app won't know you're gay already?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  15. #165
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    You have told people who use the phrase SA what they think and why they use it. My post means exactly what it said.
    Whether you disagree with their definition doesn't matter because they are using it to describe themselves and only themselves.
    A fine non-statement.

    Be more succinct - "YOU'RE A STINKER!"

    You posses an ignore button if I get too insufferable for you. Be your own man and disappear my opinion, use it.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  16. #166
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    I would if it was linguistically preferential. 'I'm a masculine gay' is 5 syllables 'i'm straight-acting' is 4.
    And "I'm masculine" is three. You're already only using this in an environment of exclusively gay men. It's implied you're one too.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  17. #167
    26354 MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    If you mind sparing me the job of sifting through all the essays in this thread, id greatly appreciate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I would if it was linguistically preferential. 'I'm a masculine gay' is 5 syllables 'i'm straight-acting' is 4.
    So it basically comes down to some of you being real lazy, got it.

  18. #168
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Well, if you act more straight, maybe the straight community will? Or wait, they aren't fooled.
    Now now, no call for that.

  19. #169
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post

    But that has the same harmful effect as straight-acting.
    Inaccurate. While I agree with others that the need to define your level of masculinity shows a certain level of insecurity, it doesn't imply things about others. It just shows how you see yourself. And that's a HUGE difference.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  20. #170
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbeltninja View Post

    Have you never picked up a hetero-aimed mens' magazine, like a Mens Health, Maxim, Stuff or FHM, or numerous others? Or never watched mainstream television, or never seen any adverts anywhere, ever?

    Heteros define their heteroness, and compare it to each other's, all the time.

    -d-
    No, they really don't. There are degrees of masculinity, true, but once out of high school whether you're an intellectual or a jock, society as a whole doesn't discriminate against you and it's generally only the really low-brow big machos that really insist on proving their machismo. Which, ironically, supports my argument as it shows insecurity.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  21. #171

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    As blackbelt noted, that its straight and masculine that are not synonymous like you first said, but straight-acting and masculine ARE.

    If i then ask myself why i don't just use masculine, its because that doesn't identify someone as gay, it identifies them as male or man-like.
    In my eyes...the person who identifies as "straight acting" is simply oppressive....my subjective opinion of course. I don't see them as masculine at all. I think a truly masculine man is in touch with his feminine side. That is why I think the term masculine is subjective anyway.

  22. #172

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    A fine non-statement.

    Be more succinct - "YOU'RE A STINKER!"

    You posses an ignore button if I get too insufferable for you. Be your own man and disappear my opinion, use it.
    Disappointing. At least you're admitting its your opinion when for a majority of the thread you presented your posts as fact.

  23. #173

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, they really don't. There are degrees of masculinity, true, but once out of high school whether you're an intellectual or a jock, society as a whole doesn't discriminate against you and it's generally only the really low-brow big machos that really insist on proving their machismo. Which, ironically, supports my argument as it shows insecurity.
    So it's only the low-brow? I suggest you get out more. Even the president must show his machismo by playing sports or having a beer.
    The emphasis on masculinity is pervasive among heterosexual culture.

  24. #174
    The gay gargoyle G-Lexington's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    I was reading a book recently, and in it, a businessman said "I know I'm not supposed to use this term about myself, but I believe it's true - I'm a genius". And it struck me that there ARE terms that we feel it's OK to say about OTHER people, but we feel weird (or even suspicious) if somebody uses it about themselves. It may be that we're skeptical of anybody giving themselves a superlative rating anywhere, or perhaps there are some qualifications we don't feel somebody is qualified to grant themselves. I certainly have no trouble saying somebody is a genius or super-creative or whatever else (assuming I believe it), but I don't know if I'd believe it if somebody told me that about themselves.

    And maybe "straight-acting" and/or "masculine" fall into this realm as well. If asked to describe some gay guy, especially to somebody who was specifically wondering if they'd be interested in dating them, I'd probably use the term "masculine" if it fit.

    Lex

  25. #175

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Inaccurate. While I agree with others that the need to define your level of masculinity shows a certain level of insecurity, it doesn't imply things about others. It just shows how you see yourself. And that's a HUGE difference.
    The very need to say you are masculine implies that you don't want to be seen as feminine. This is the same logic you use to state that "straight-acting" assumes not only a superiority of heterosexuality but also a set of distinct traits that separate people of different sexual orientation.

  26. #176
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Inaccurate. While I agree with others that the need to define your level of masculinity shows a certain level of insecurity, it doesn't imply things about others. It just shows how you see yourself. And that's a HUGE difference.
    I think if we acknowledge that some gay men feel comfortable and self-empowered viewing themselves in a feminine lens, even including using feminine pronouns for themselves, is a good and positive thing we should accept and celebrate, then the community should also respect people who do not do so. And when we celebrate the former openly it is dishonest to say there's utterly no need for any distinction of any kind or that insecure people only make up that there is ever any call for distinction.

  27. #177
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    You're welcome to that view. It doesn't change the fact that if a shorter, just as apt word came about for describing the same thing, i'd use that without a second thought either.

    Your point to buzzer was inaccurate. You argued how using effeminate words were self descriptors but SA was describing you, when that is completely ignoring what SA guys are saying, that IT is a self descriptor too AND FURTHERMORE, your examples as self descriptors can also be perceived as describing ME. The very reason that straight acting came about was probably because some gay guys were sick of being stereotyped in a way that doesn't reflect whatsoever.

    The use of the term is being denigrated because of a perception that it undermines effeminate men by some sort of intent, at the same time as effeminate and former derogatory (queer) words are being seen as harmless, despite them doing exactly that to gay guys that can't relate.
    I have responded to your point already. Comparing a binary system (straight/gay) with terms that are part of a giant spectrum does not work.

    The point being made is that gay guys got sick of being associated with gay culture by straight people and came up with a term that is ONLY used in gay culture and doesn't matter to straight people. Do you not see how ridiculous this is?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  28. #178
    26354 MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    So a dislike of effeminacy is synonymous with homophobia now??? You see the homophobia in the term straight-acting because you want to
    Nope, it is because it is there.

  29. #179
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Disappointing. At least you're admitting its your opinion when for a majority of the thread you presented your posts as fact.
    LOL well at least you're amusing.

    Actually if you'd actually read the whole thread you'd realize that there is only one poster I categorized, but by all means don't let that get in the way if your snit.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  30. #180
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    The very need to say you are masculine implies that you don't want to be seen as feminine. This is the same logic you use to state that "straight-acting" assumes not only a superiority of heterosexuality but also a set of distinct traits that separate people of different sexual orientation.
    No it doesn't, you are simply wrong, and that's a FACT! Now DON't say it again!

    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  31. #181
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    I honestly think that is off the point for the purposes of self description or self conception. Many people could (and do) interpret a white identity as an anti-minority identity, as an example. But I don't think anyone would tell white people they should call themselves black or own their blackness to get away from this.
    Your race is not a choice. Your terminology is a choice. Duh.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  32. #182

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Mary please.

    You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.

    I know this terrain, I used to be you, congratulating myself how “guy,” I was, how I wasn’t’ that gay, thinking how normal and what a gift I was to gay men everywhere.

    Protest that if you want. I don’t believe you. That permeates your post.

    For guys who call themselves “SA” the general gay stereotype is disliked because they don’t want to be associated with it, and not because it’s not really them, because they have a problem being associated with it – and next time you feel inclined to tell your “straight” friends who’re all atwitter at how straight you appear – perhaps you might say that gay men populate a whole wonderful spectrum INSTEAD of telling them that really you’re just a straight guy who sucks cock.

    Because in the end YOU ARE NOT STRIAGHT ACTING UNLESS YOU FUCK TWAT. That is the ONLY behavior common to all straight men.

    Period.

    “SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay.

    There it is.
    Yea this is only referencing one poster right?

  33. #183
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Also along with what you're saying, I've seen a decrease over the course of my life in the negative connotation of being gay. That's a good thing, of course.

    I think honestly this could boil down to: is it wrong to be (or feel) gay and masculine. Because expression of it seems to be cause for offense.
    And I'll say no, it is not wrong. And in my very short experience as being out, I see this disgusting term SA less and less. Which is another case in my point really. As internalized and outside homophobia subside, so does the terminology that's based on them.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  34. #184
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Your race is not a choice. Your terminology is a choice. Duh.
    This response comes up but in between each of these are people saying that no one should make any distinction at all.

    It would be a lot easier to understand the objection if people would either decide: is it 1 term that bothers you, or an entire distinction. People are going back and forth between both positions and if it's the latter, then we're wasting our time with the former.

  35. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post

    So it's only the low-brow? I suggest you get out more. Even the president must show his machismo by playing sports or having a beer.
    The emphasis on masculinity is pervasive among heterosexual culture.
    And yet nerds make the most money outside of a few celebrities. And pop-culture is less and less "masc". I wonder...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  36. #186
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Yea this is only referencing one poster right?
    I believe that WAS addressed to ONE poster but whatever, I said that there was only one poster I CATEGORIZED, third line down, I simply don't see any other posters referenced.

    English, you might try it sometime.
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  37. #187
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And I'll say no, it is not wrong.
    Good. See we can reach a plane of mutual understanding somewhere.

  38. #188
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    So a dislike of effeminacy is synonymous with homophobia now??? You see the homophobia in the term straight-acting because you want to, not because there is a great deal of truth in it. Maybe your dislike of straight things, exemplified by your 'breeders' usage is the bigger problem.

    If straight-acting is the term they've adopted over masculine in their lifetime, then obviously they'll use it regardless.
    And I'll continue to judge them accordingly.

    And no, I'm not heterophobic. Disliking effeminacy is not bad. Expressing it through judgmental sweeping terminology is. You keep trying to make this about who you are and what you do but you fail. It's not. It's about how you express it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  39. #189

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I believe that WAS addressed to ONE poster but whatever, I said that there was only one poster I CATEGORIZED, third line down, I simply don't see any other posters referenced.

    English, you might try it sometime.
    You're not referencing a poster. You simply mention anyone who uses the term SA.
    "“SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay."

    Nice try.

  40. #190
    Slut vater292's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, they really don't. There are degrees of masculinity, true, but once out of high school whether you're an intellectual or a jock, society as a whole doesn't discriminate against you and it's generally only the really low-brow big machos that really insist on proving their machismo. Which, ironically, supports my argument as it shows insecurity.
    Actually a lot of guys do compare their heteroness. If you spend much time in a production plant or on a work site then you really see this. Its a major part of interaction between guys (at least from my various jobs and with my current job where I go into various plants everyday). Its quite comical listening to them brag about their cars/trucks, or stories of crazy stuff they have done, and the guys that actually workout them bragging about what they can do while working out.

  41. #191
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post

    The very need to say you are masculine implies that you don't want to be seen as feminine. This is the same logic you use to state that "straight-acting" assumes not only a superiority of heterosexuality but also a set of distinct traits that separate people of different sexual orientation.
    Ugh. Again.

    If I say I'm masculine, I say that I don't want to be feminine. It MAY mean that I dislike femininity OR that I just don't want to be feminine. Either way, it's a personal preference. I am not calling anyone less than me. Furthermore, being masculine is a subject to interpretation.

    If I say I am SA, I am saying that I act not like what I am, which is gay. I can't not be gay, yet I act as the opposite of what I am. There's already a serious conflict here. Then I actually mean "masculine", which generalizes the entire gay minority as the opposite. And since I am so in conflict with being who I am that I chose a term describing the opposite of it, clearly it's very bad.

    I'm doing a logic line here, not saying that's what goes in people's heads.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  42. #192

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And yet nerds make the most money outside of a few celebrities. And pop-culture is less and less "masc". I wonder...
    If pop culture was the reference point for society then gays would have no problem being out and fabulous.
    In most of the country and the world, this is not the case.
    Masculinity is a measuring stick for heterosexual men and any interaction with such men makes this painfully obvious outside certain niche or privileged circles.

  43. #193
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    You're not referencing a poster. You simply mention anyone who uses the term SA.
    "“SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay."

    Nice try.
    Try? I believe the poster I was responding to was clearly identified. We even had an argument about go look. Did you omit that part on purpose - come on, you can tell me.

    Reading Comprehension - you might want to try it sometime.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  44. #194

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Ugh. Again.

    If I say I'm masculine, I say that I don't want to be feminine. It MAY mean that I dislike femininity OR that I just don't want to be feminine. Either way, it's a personal preference. I am not calling anyone less than me. Furthermore, being masculine is a subject to interpretation.

    If I say I am SA, I am saying that I act not like what I am, which is gay. I can't not be gay, yet I act as the opposite of what I am. There's already a serious conflict here. Then I actually mean "masculine", which generalizes the entire gay minority as the opposite. And since I am so in conflict with being who I am that I chose a term describing the opposite of it, clearly it's very bad.

    I'm doing a logic line here, not saying that's what goes in people's heads.
    The conflict is who I am and who society perceives me as. That is what you're not getting.

  45. #195
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    If pop culture was the reference point for society then gays would have no problem being out and fabulous.
    In most of the country and the world, this is not the case.
    Masculinity is a measuring stick for heterosexual men and any interaction with such men makes this painfully obvious outside certain niche or privileged circles.
    No, you are simply wrong, and that's a FACT! Now DON't say it again!

    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  46. #196
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    I think if we acknowledge that some gay men feel comfortable and self-empowered viewing themselves in a feminine lens, even including using feminine pronouns for themselves, is a good and positive thing we should accept and celebrate, then the community should also respect people who do not do so. And when we celebrate the former openly it is dishonest to say there's utterly no need for any distinction of any kind or that insecure people only make up that there is ever any call for distinction.
    Again - the two aren't the same. Celebrating the feminine side of a man is a statement and it celebrates diversity. The opposite is what straight culture already expects. There's nothing to celebrate there. There's nothing to be ashamed of either, but there should be, when the term used spits on this same diversity.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  47. #197
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Masculinity is a measuring stick for heterosexual men and any interaction with such men makes this painfully obvious outside certain niche or privileged circles.
    What? Maybe I misunderstood, but did you just obliterate all masculinity from any gay men here?

  48. #198
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.
    No, people don't get to "define themselves." Words have meanings independent of people's random utterances of them. Guys who regularly enjoy sucking dick do not get to label themselves as straight, because that is not what the word "straight" means. Similarly the concepts of masculinity and heterosexuality and straight-acting actually do mean something. How people "choose to view themselves" may have nothing to do with it. In which case, it's not a question of "honouring their self-concept" or whatever modern anti-positivist mumbo jumbo" but of educating them as to the meaning of these words.

    Words like "masculinity" and "heterosexuality" and "homosexuality" are interesting because the academic history behind them is relatively shallow compared to other sociopolitical concepts like "power" or "authority" or "will." But that means there is just more need of education. Not more need of random people using the words in inconsistent and contradictory ways.

  49. #199
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    Something potential to be learned here. Attitude is also a choice. If you're gonna kick up a fuss over trivial things like what other gay guys label themselves as....
    Yeah, many white men still think it's also "trivial" to call black people niggers.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  50. #200
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Again - the two aren't the same. Celebrating the feminine side of a man is a statement and it celebrates diversity. The opposite is what straight culture already expects. There's nothing to celebrate there. There's nothing to be ashamed of either, but there should be, when the term used spits on this same diversity.
    Rolyo this reads dangerously closely to "if you are masculine, and acknowledge and affirm it, you're aiding the enemy." Which should be a ridiculous statement if as has been posited all over this thread, straight men don't have a monopoly on masculinity or femininity.

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