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  1. #101
    mitchymo
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    No, I'm saying that going off into "I HAVE TO," or any version of "it's not fair," is pointless.
    Erm, well i'd say that's being pretty repressive right there.

  2. #102
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by bort138 View Post
    How about instead of "straight acting" we use "undercover gay" or "covert gay."
    I think gender/role bias, behavior and attitudes are more deeply ingrained in us than homophobia so "straight acting" can be a useful tool...especially to the people who want to avoid that influence in their lives......

  3. #103
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post

    I do not want equality and/or visibility for people "just like me" ...I want it for everyone...period...especially people I don't like or approve of or else it means nothing....I even want equality and visibility for the "straight acting" guy running that meeting (who shall remain nameless)
    The problem is that this thread is saying everyone not like me is causing harm and offense to me, just from a different perspective.

    All inclusion is great and I support it. Where's the inclusiveness in this thread for the people who would fall under the term "straight acting?"

    I don't see it. I see several people saying that people who fall under the term are lying to themselves, if not actively harming other gay people. If someone said exactly that same sentence about drag queens, what would be this forum's reaction? The same as here? I doubt it.

  4. #104
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Actually the history of suicide is among those who DON'T want to call themselves gay, and don't come to terms with it.

    The "harm" as you put it, is a culture that teaches the imperative that being effeminate in any way is a betrayal of masculinity.

    This is just a consequence of that.

    I repeat, this is about how a guy feels about himself - yes it's offensive, but so are a lot of other things. It's primary fallout is that a bunch of gay guys are going to see it as a red flag.
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  5. #105
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The problem is that this thread is saying everyone not like me is causing harm and offense to me, just from a different perspective.

    All inclusion is great and I support it. Where's the inclusiveness in this thread for the people who would fall under the term "straight acting?"

    I don't see it. I see several people saying that people who fall under the term are lying to themselves, if not actively harming other gay people. If someone said exactly that same sentence about drag queens, what would be this forum's reaction? The same as here? I doubt it.
    I think you might be conflating a bunch of things into a point nobody made. If some guy wants to play SA - I frankly don't care, it's just going to make me avoid him probably.

    Discussion of the term, it's origins, and why it gets used isn't saying that it will bring fire down on our heads.

    Straight people don't give a fuck and are NOT going to say, oh look at Bob, he's a "Straight Acting" Gay, they are just going to say he's gay.

    On the ground the only people who obsess over this are usually the guys who call themselves SA.
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  6. #106
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Erm, well i'd say that's being pretty repressive right there.
    So I'M FORCING YOU TO ENGAGE!

    It's nice to be omnipotent.
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  7. #107
    The old familiar sting blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    On the ground the only people who obsess over this are usually the guys who call themselves SA.
    Yes... except that the topic was started by someone who loathes the term and doesn't identify as such, and all the objections are coming from like-minded people.

    So... no.

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  8. #108
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Actually the history of suicide is among those who DON'T want to call themselves gay, and don't come to terms with it.

    The "harm" as you put it, is a culture that teaches the imperative that being effeminate in any way is a betrayal of masculinity.

    This is just a consequence of that.

    I repeat, this is about how a guy feels about himself - yes it's offensive, but so are a lot of other things. It's primary fallout is that a bunch of gay guys are going to see it as a red flag.
    Society teaches that nerdiness is bad.

    I watch tons of sci fi.

    Assigning to me participating in persecution or harm to others based on how I self-describe is out of line.

  9. #109

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Actually the history of suicide is among those who DON'T want to call themselves gay, and don't come to terms with it.

    The "harm" as you put it, is a culture that teaches the imperative that being effeminate in any way is a betrayal of masculinity.

    This is just a consequence of that.

    I repeat, this is about how a guy feels about himself - yes it's offensive, but so are a lot of other things. It's primary fallout is that a bunch of gay guys are going to see it as a red flag.
    Then it is equally wrong or harm to call yourself masculine because of all the negative connotations "feminine" carries.

    So what term would you prefer that is innocuous?

  10. #110
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Then it is equally wrong or harm to call yourself masculine because of all the negative connotations "feminine" carries.

    So what term would you prefer that is innocuous?
    I already answered that.
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  11. #111
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The problem is that this thread is saying everyone not like me is causing harm and offense to me, just from a different perspective.

    All inclusion is great and I support it. Where's the inclusiveness in this thread for the people who would fall under the term "straight acting?"

    I don't see it. I see several people saying that people who fall under the term are lying to themselves, if not actively harming other gay people. If someone said exactly that same sentence about drag queens, what would be this forum's reaction? The same as here? I doubt it.
    According to most straight people...*I* fall into that category...as does my lover...except they tell me and Dave they would "never know we were gay". Sometimes...they go on to see if I have any of the internalized homophobia they have...now that they have given me what they consider a compliment (BARF)...I am not a stupid person and manipulating me is not very easy. When they notice I do not see it as a compliment or a bonding moment they often qualify it by saying that they have no problem with "normal" gay people but some of "those guys" make them want to puke.

    So...what they are saying is that they have gender/role bias and judgements....I "get it"...I think it is boring and a bit controlling to worry about how other individuals represent themselves...and if they think I am throwing anyone else under the bus to get some approval or acceptance (and they do)...they are badly mistaken. After I ream their ass...ever so gently... I usually get a "I didn't mean anything by that" and I smile and reassure them that of course I already knew that *wink wink*

    I see groups of people who are marginalized in society all having the same problem....they are trying to pit us against each for a grain of approval or acceptance. When someone uses that label it reminds me of all of that. I don't care if they use it.....and I am not offended....but I do think it reeks of gender/role bias and is an example of how oppressed groups of people oppress each other. Most of that behavior is not conscious ...it is ingrained.....and that is why it is so effective.

  12. #112
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Society teaches that nerdiness is bad.

    I watch tons of sci fi.

    Assigning to me participating in persecution or harm to others based on how I self-describe is out of line.
    I'm sorry but there is just no equivalency between the history of "nerdiness" and the history of gay.
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  13. #113
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Then it is equally wrong or harm to call yourself masculine because of all the negative connotations "feminine" carries.

    So what term would you prefer that is innocuous?
    That was the point I was trying to make in 2-3 posts earlier on. I don't think the offense is caused by the term itself, it's caused by the mere distinction of effeminate and masculine, and people's immediate interpretation of the distinction as putting themselves up as masculine and putting others down as effeminate.

    Even when people such as Mitchymo have posted long explanations about how this is neither their intent nor their meaning with making the distinction, even if it may be the meaning of a closeted cretin on Craigslist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I'm sorry but there is just no equivalency between the history of "nerdiness" and the history of gay.
    Nor is there any equivalence between how I conceive of myself and harm others have endured at the hands of others.

  14. #114
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by blackbeltninja View Post
    Yes... except that the topic was started by someone who loathes the term and doesn't identify as such, and all the objections are coming from like-minded people.

    So... no.

    -d-
    It seems to me that he just came across the term and it offended him, so no....
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  15. #115

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I already answered that.
    If you mind sparing me the job of sifting through all the essays in this thread, id greatly appreciate it.

  16. #116
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Nor is there any equivalence between how I conceive of myself and harm others have endured at the hands of others.
    You keep saying this - so could you please point out the post you are referencing.
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  17. #117
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    If you mind sparing me the job of sifting through all the essays in this thread, id greatly appreciate it.
    Post number 98
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  18. #118
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    You keep saying this - so could you please point out the post you are referencing.
    It is entirely clear that the term and the concept behind it is, by many posters here, considered very offensive. I don't think quoting that sentiment made in a dozen or more posts throughout the thread should be necessary.

    So I ask, again, is the distinction itself whatsoever between masculine and feminine offensive? Would you be NOT offended by someone self-describing as "masculine" or "not stereotypical?" Because it is very much my belief that someone saying those same terms would have spawned exactly this same discussion, in slightly different proportions.

  19. #119
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That was the point I was trying to make in 2-3 posts earlier on. I don't think the offense is caused by the term itself, it's caused by the mere distinction of effeminate and masculine, and people's immediate interpretation of the distinction as putting themselves up as masculine and putting others down as effeminate.

    Even when people such as Mitchymo have posted long explanations about how this is neither their intent nor their meaning with making the distinction, even if it may be the meaning of a closeted cretin on Craigslist.
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex

  20. #120
    mitchymo
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post

    On the ground the only people who obsess over this are usually the guys who call themselves SA.
    The only reason for that is because guys like you seem intent on smearing the terminology. I'll repeat blackbeltninja's excellent comment:
    Yes... except that the topic was started by someone who loathes the term and doesn't identify as such, and all the objections are coming from like-minded people.

    So... no.

  21. #121
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It is entirely clear that the term and the concept behind it is, by many posters here, considered very offensive. I don't think quoting that sentiment made in a dozen or more posts throughout the thread should be necessary.

    So I ask, again, is the distinction itself whatsoever between masculine and feminine offensive? Would you be NOT offended by someone self-describing as "masculine" or "not stereotypical?" Because it is very much my belief that someone saying those same terms would have spawned exactly this same discussion, in slightly different proportions.
    I think the better question is asking the person stereotyping why they are stereotyping anyone? ...and who defines masculine and feminine? ...do we all agree on a definition? ...why is "masculine" considered by so many people as "straight acting"?...why not masculine as "gay acting"?

  22. #122
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It is entirely clear that the term and the concept behind it is, by many posters here, considered very offensive. I don't think quoting that sentiment made in a dozen or more posts throughout the thread should be necessary.

    So I ask, again, is the distinction itself whatsoever between masculine and feminine offensive? Would you be NOT offended by someone self-describing as "masculine" or "not stereotypical?" Because it is very much my belief that someone saying those same terms would have spawned exactly this same discussion, in slightly different proportions.
    Oh no you don't, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Nor is there any equivalence between how I conceive of myself and harm others have endured at the hands of others.
    Was what I wanted the clarification about. Who is claiming that SA is about how SOMEONE else has been "harmed."

    I have repeatedly said SA is only about the guy using it. If I have been unclear on the "offense" front let me clarify. Yes I find it offensive, but mostly I just don't give a fuck and am not going to date a guy saying that.

    While we're at it, Straight, and Masculine ARE NOT synonyms.
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  23. #123
    The old familiar sting blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex
    Well... what term would you prefer? As I said many pages ago we all know what the term means, so as far as hook-up descriptors go it is in fact pretty perfect.

    What next, is there going to be a groundswell of support against self identifying size-queens and guys describing themselves as "hung" so as not to offend us average guys?

    -d-
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  24. #124
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I think the better question is asking the person stereotyping why they are stereotyping anyone? ...and who defines masculine and feminine? ...do we all agree on a definition? ...why is "masculine" considered by so many people as "straight acting"?...why not masculine as "gay acting"?
    Beat me to it and you were nicer about it - asshole. (grin)
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  25. #125

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex
    Well on a dating site I think that's an important distinction to make.

    No offense but I'm not into dating fem guys. It's just not a set of traits I'm attracted to. Now while seeing straight-acting and masculine listed are turn-offs are for me, I feel somewhat relieved when someone lists "fem" because I know that person isn't for me.

    On these online sites and apps I think quick references are important.

  26. #126
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The only reason for that is because guys like you seem intent on smearing the terminology. I'll repeat blackbeltninja's excellent comment:
    and I'll refer you back to my response.
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  27. #127
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I think the better question is asking the person stereotyping why they are stereotyping anyone? ...and who defines masculine and feminine? ...do we all agree on a definition? ...why is "masculine" considered by so many people as "straight acting"?...why not masculine as "gay acting"?
    Let me answer your question with a question.

    Why is stereotyping yourself in one set of proscribed, community-approved ways okay, positive and self-affirming, and others are not? Do we agree on those categories?

  28. #128
    The old familiar sting blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    While we're at it, Straight, and Masculine ARE NOT synonyms.
    No - not "straight." "Straight-acting." BIG difference.

    We SA guys are not confusing the two.

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  29. #129
    mitchymo
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    While we're at it, Straight, and Masculine ARE NOT synonyms.
    Pretty irrelevant, generally they are.

  30. #130
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex
    Lex, the homosexual community at this very moment is not doing a very good job of making me feel welcome or included.

  31. #131
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Pretty irrelevant, generally they are.
    Which tells us why you apply the term.
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  32. #132
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    While we're at it, Straight, and Masculine ARE NOT synonyms.
    We have no disagreement there.

    So perhaps you could answer the question I posed to you at least once already, what descriptor would you find non offensive? I'm not sure there is one, from the tone of this discussion. I'm just trying to get people to be honest or up front about that instead of pretending this is about 1 term.

  33. #133
    mitchymo
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Which tells us why you apply the term.
    Yes mate, its called being apt.

  34. #134
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Lex, the homosexual community at this very moment is not doing a very good job of making me feel welcome or included.
    This argument will be going on when you are old and gray. It's been raging for decades. There is no answer to be had because it's about intangibles and perceptions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Yes mate, its called being apt.
    LOL, meaning what?

    I see we're fully into tit for tat.

    Tag.
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  35. #135
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    We have no disagreement there.

    So perhaps you could answer the question I posed to you at least once already, what descriptor would you find non offensive? I'm not sure there is one, from the tone of this discussion. I'm just trying to get people to be honest or up front about that instead of pretending this is about 1 term.

    Post number 98
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  36. #136
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Holddddddddddddd on.

    Why is this a big deal???

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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Let me answer your question with a question.

    Why is stereotyping yourself in one set of proscribed, community-approved ways okay, positive and self-affirming, and others are not? Do we agree on those categories?
    Well...one of those definitions (SA) implies that straight people all act in a certain way...one that is different than "gay acting" people. I completely support anyone who choses to identify themselves that way...but I wonder about how they perceive me or the rest of the gay community?...and why they want to separate themselves?

    If you are gay...then you are naturally "gay acting" whatever your demeanor is IMO.

  38. #138
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Well...one of those definitions (SA) implies that straight people all act in a certain way...one that is different than "gay acting" people. I completely support anyone who choses to identify themselves that way...but I wonder about how they perceive me or the rest of the gay community?...and why they want to separate themselves?

    If you are gay...then you are naturally "gay acting" whatever your demeanor is IMO.
    That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

    Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.

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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

    Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.
    If you saw that you brought it yourself. I certainly didn't say it.
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Actually you can't find anywhere in here that I said anything like that at all.
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    If you saw that you brought it yourself. I certainly didn't say it.
    I asked what descriptor would be non offensive and your answer was a non answer. It said that you should make no distinction at all.

    So do you have a non offensive descriptor or shall we keep beating around the bush?

  42. #142
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Kien View Post
    Holddddddddddddd on.

    Why is this a big deal???
    It's not. It's just being blown waaaaaay out of proportion because people mostly only say that on online websites with the purpose of quick hookups!!!!

    Who goes up to a person and says, "Hey I'm straight-acting!" NO ONE.

    Gosh, Kien. Only online, Kien.

  43. #143
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post

    LOL, meaning what?
    As blackbelt noted, that its straight and masculine that are not synonymous like you first said, but straight-acting and masculine ARE.

    If i then ask myself why i don't just use masculine, its because that doesn't identify someone as gay, it identifies them as male or man-like.

  44. #144
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by blackbeltninja View Post
    Well... what term would you prefer? As I said many pages ago we all know what the term means, so as far as hook-up descriptors go it is in fact pretty perfect.
    That's just it. It doesn't matter what the term is. The basic argument from the get-go is this: "the sheer fact that you felt you needed to make the distinction in the first place is what makes me feel you're not worthy of my attention".

    What next, is there going to be a groundswell of support against self identifying size-queens and guys describing themselves as "hung" so as not to offend us average guys?
    The problem people are having is based on the feeling that by saying "straight-acting" or "masculine", you're saying "I'm gay, but I'm not, y'know, GAY gay". Buzzer hypothetically asked "If I say I'm bookish, does that demean athletes?" And no, it doesn't. But in that example, he's not distancing himself from the group he's placed himself into. If he said "I'm bookish, but I'm no nerd", or "I'm an athlete, but I'm no jock", I think we'd be in more similar situations. It suggests there's something wrong with "nerd" or "jock".

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Well on a dating site I think that's an important distinction to make.

    No offense but I'm not into dating fem guys. It's just not a set of traits I'm attracted to. Now while seeing straight-acting and masculine listed are turn-offs are for me, I feel somewhat relieved when someone lists "fem" because I know that person isn't for me.
    So seeing "masculine" is a turn-off, but seeing "fem" is a relief because it means you won't have to bother?

    I was saying to somebody offthread that I've noticed this only runs in one direction. We've seen and heard plenty of things similar to "He said he was masculine/straight-acting, but LOOK at him! He's not like that at all!" But have we EVER seen "he said he was effeminate, but LOOK at him! He's not like that at all!" Part of that probably has to do with internal homophobia and whatnot - anybody who feels comfortable enough to call themselves effeminate probably is. But then again, it also seems like the terms "straight-acting" and "masculine" work like a magnet - they pull in the eyeballs. Maybe those eyes have cynical glasses on, but they're looking nonetheless. I talked to a guy looking to increase the number of hits on his hook-up profile. My only suggestion was to swap "pretty average" to "straight-acting". Let's just say he got a LOT more responses that way.

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  45. #145
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Kien View Post
    It's not. It's just being blown waaaaaay out of proportion because people mostly only say that on online websites with the purpose of quick hookups!!!!

    Who goes up to a person and says, "Hey I'm straight-acting!" NO ONE.

    Gosh, Kien. Only online, Kien.
    Yes, but apparently these now have to be inclusive and politically correct. Didn't you get the memo?

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  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    I agree and acknowledge the term is bad, or at least up for incredible misinterpretation. However I think there isn't a much better one out there. I also think assigning an entire philosophy to someone based off their use of it when there isn't a widely used better one is unfair.

    When I see the reactions in this thread to the term, I question if the offense is caused by the term itself or the distinction being made between masculine and effeminate gay men. Which is why I asked in the thread several times what else people would prefer, and if the distinction itself is what causes the offense.

    Unfortunately we have a very poor amount of terms... we don't have an equivalent of "African American" vs. "Black American" vs. "Negro" vs. etc. for some of these things so that people have a wide range of choices to describe themselves with and avoid misunderstanding. If I feel the need to type up a paragraph to say the same thing as "straight acting" without offending people I'm not sure how to more succinctly express the same meaning in a discussion.

    Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.

    I have a suspicion that if the thread had been "what do people think when they see 'masc' in a personal ad", this discussion would have still almost immediately gone to a discussion of internalized homophobia and offensive terminology.

    Do you think that's untrue?

    That's the way language works. You can't honestly say that Tx-Beau and a total random stranger calling you a faggot carries precisely the same interpretation to you. However I think this discussion has shown the complete opposite of what you are saying. It is, as Mitchy said... fine, validated, perfectly acceptable to be a self-proclaimed queen, diva, girl, bitch or whatever else. But if someone says straight-acting, god help you.

    I disagree. Mitchymo's post spoke very well. I think this forum does frequently suffer the notion of "if you were a healthy gay man, you would have evolved exactly as I have done, you'd feel exactly as I do, you'd behave as I do and you'd view yourself and your identity as I do."

    That's the point at which we are saying the stereotype is equivalent to the fact of being gay, however benevolent the intent may have started out, and however much it may come from a place of people wanting to help others be self-accepting. Would you describe me, or Mitchymo, as blatant homophobes or enemies of gay rights? This thread didn't start as me or Mitchy beginning a discussion about how being an effeminate or stereotypical gay guy is bad, however it did turn into plenty of people essentially saying we're guilty of any number of social crimes by association.
    1. The very need to define your level of gayness/straightness is already suspect. Straight men don't feel the need to measure how straight they are, why should GAY men measure how STRAIGHT they are?! O.o The distinction IS partly the cause for offense. Frankly, I live in one of the top five gayest neighborhoods in the country and I have honestly not experienced any relevant degree of limp-wristed cliche-queens. Those do exist but their relevance and symbolizing of gay culture is greatly exaggerated by many other gay men so that they can justify hiding they're gay.

    2. If the thread were discussing the term "masc", I'd still debate the need to explicitly state your level of masculinity, but the term itself is neutral. "Straight acting" turns "straight" into a degree of... something (a combination of masculinity and subscribing to "gay culture", it seems, as if there's only one), and this is not neutral in the least.

    3. Of course words have meaning depending on context. I have called Asians "orientals" when I didn't know the term was offensive. Which is kinda my point. Using "straight-acting" shows ignorance and insensitivity to the very very pregnant subtext of what the term actually says.

    4. Calling yourself a diva, girl and a bitch describes you. Calling yourself "straight acting" describes ME. You're making a general statement regarding what it means to be gay and how it relates to being straight

    5. Accusing the forum of some gay elitism is unfair. Internalized homophobia is a real and very pervasive thing in the world and to have this argument at all attests to that. We HAVE to deliberately and consciously fight these terms and their usage so that WE can evolve as a minority and stop feeling inferior. Or will you argue that gays in general don't subconsciously feel inferior to straights? Because it's terms like this that do that.

    6. You are way above playing victim, so I'll just pretend you didn't write the last paragraph.
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    As blackbelt noted, that its straight and masculine that are not synonymous like you first said, but straight-acting and masculine ARE.

    If i then ask myself why i don't just use masculine, its because that doesn't identify someone as gay, it identifies them as male or man-like.
    LOL. So call yourself a "masculine" gay man, problem solved.
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  48. #148
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaggii View Post

    Are you comparing ¨straight¨ with ¨faggot¨? Because one is a word, while the other is an insult, if used directly at someone. Some of us don´t think ¨gay¨is an insult if it´s said directly at someone, so why should ¨straight¨ be?
    Inaccurate comparison. "Faggot" is a one word insult. "Straight" on its own is neutral, but in the context used in the term "straight acting" we are no longer looking at the word but at the cultural significance its use here signifies.
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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Are "trying not to appear gay" and "not intentionally trying to seem gay", to you, the same thing?

    Honest question.
    People who just don't seem gay wouldn't go out of their way to describe themselves as "straight acting" in my experience. I know I never have, and people don't usually peg me for a homersekshul.
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I asked what descriptor would be non offensive and your answer was a non answer. It said that you should make no distinction at all.

    So do you have a non offensive descriptor or shall we keep beating around the bush?
    The answer was implicit, I am as I am make your own judgment - it won't change me. I challenge the need for "descriptor."
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