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  1. #101
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Society teaches that nerdiness is bad.

    I watch tons of sci fi.

    Assigning to me participating in persecution or harm to others based on how I self-describe is out of line.
    I'm sorry but there is just no equivalency between the history of "nerdiness" and the history of gay.
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  2. #102
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Then it is equally wrong or harm to call yourself masculine because of all the negative connotations "feminine" carries.

    So what term would you prefer that is innocuous?
    That was the point I was trying to make in 2-3 posts earlier on. I don't think the offense is caused by the term itself, it's caused by the mere distinction of effeminate and masculine, and people's immediate interpretation of the distinction as putting themselves up as masculine and putting others down as effeminate.

    Even when people such as Mitchymo have posted long explanations about how this is neither their intent nor their meaning with making the distinction, even if it may be the meaning of a closeted cretin on Craigslist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I'm sorry but there is just no equivalency between the history of "nerdiness" and the history of gay.
    Nor is there any equivalence between how I conceive of myself and harm others have endured at the hands of others.

  3. #103
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by blackbeltninja View Post
    Yes... except that the topic was started by someone who loathes the term and doesn't identify as such, and all the objections are coming from like-minded people.

    So... no.

    -d-
    It seems to me that he just came across the term and it offended him, so no....
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  4. #104

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I already answered that.
    If you mind sparing me the job of sifting through all the essays in this thread, id greatly appreciate it.

  5. #105
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Nor is there any equivalence between how I conceive of myself and harm others have endured at the hands of others.
    You keep saying this - so could you please point out the post you are referencing.
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  6. #106
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    If you mind sparing me the job of sifting through all the essays in this thread, id greatly appreciate it.
    Post number 98
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  7. #107
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    You keep saying this - so could you please point out the post you are referencing.
    It is entirely clear that the term and the concept behind it is, by many posters here, considered very offensive. I don't think quoting that sentiment made in a dozen or more posts throughout the thread should be necessary.

    So I ask, again, is the distinction itself whatsoever between masculine and feminine offensive? Would you be NOT offended by someone self-describing as "masculine" or "not stereotypical?" Because it is very much my belief that someone saying those same terms would have spawned exactly this same discussion, in slightly different proportions.

  8. #108
    The gay gargoyle G-Lexington's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That was the point I was trying to make in 2-3 posts earlier on. I don't think the offense is caused by the term itself, it's caused by the mere distinction of effeminate and masculine, and people's immediate interpretation of the distinction as putting themselves up as masculine and putting others down as effeminate.

    Even when people such as Mitchymo have posted long explanations about how this is neither their intent nor their meaning with making the distinction, even if it may be the meaning of a closeted cretin on Craigslist.
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex

  9. #109

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It is entirely clear that the term and the concept behind it is, by many posters here, considered very offensive. I don't think quoting that sentiment made in a dozen or more posts throughout the thread should be necessary.

    So I ask, again, is the distinction itself whatsoever between masculine and feminine offensive? Would you be NOT offended by someone self-describing as "masculine" or "not stereotypical?" Because it is very much my belief that someone saying those same terms would have spawned exactly this same discussion, in slightly different proportions.
    I think the better question is asking the person stereotyping why they are stereotyping anyone? ...and who defines masculine and feminine? ...do we all agree on a definition? ...why is "masculine" considered by so many people as "straight acting"?...why not masculine as "gay acting"?

  10. #110
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It is entirely clear that the term and the concept behind it is, by many posters here, considered very offensive. I don't think quoting that sentiment made in a dozen or more posts throughout the thread should be necessary.

    So I ask, again, is the distinction itself whatsoever between masculine and feminine offensive? Would you be NOT offended by someone self-describing as "masculine" or "not stereotypical?" Because it is very much my belief that someone saying those same terms would have spawned exactly this same discussion, in slightly different proportions.
    Oh no you don't, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Nor is there any equivalence between how I conceive of myself and harm others have endured at the hands of others.
    Was what I wanted the clarification about. Who is claiming that SA is about how SOMEONE else has been "harmed."

    I have repeatedly said SA is only about the guy using it. If I have been unclear on the "offense" front let me clarify. Yes I find it offensive, but mostly I just don't give a fuck and am not going to date a guy saying that.

    While we're at it, Straight, and Masculine ARE NOT synonyms.
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  11. #111
    Je suis Charlie blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex
    Well... what term would you prefer? As I said many pages ago we all know what the term means, so as far as hook-up descriptors go it is in fact pretty perfect.

    What next, is there going to be a groundswell of support against self identifying size-queens and guys describing themselves as "hung" so as not to offend us average guys?

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  12. #112
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I think the better question is asking the person stereotyping why they are stereotyping anyone? ...and who defines masculine and feminine? ...do we all agree on a definition? ...why is "masculine" considered by so many people as "straight acting"?...why not masculine as "gay acting"?
    Beat me to it and you were nicer about it - asshole. (grin)
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  13. #113

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex
    Well on a dating site I think that's an important distinction to make.

    No offense but I'm not into dating fem guys. It's just not a set of traits I'm attracted to. Now while seeing straight-acting and masculine listed are turn-offs are for me, I feel somewhat relieved when someone lists "fem" because I know that person isn't for me.

    On these online sites and apps I think quick references are important.

  14. #114
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The only reason for that is because guys like you seem intent on smearing the terminology. I'll repeat blackbeltninja's excellent comment:
    and I'll refer you back to my response.
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  15. #115
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I think the better question is asking the person stereotyping why they are stereotyping anyone? ...and who defines masculine and feminine? ...do we all agree on a definition? ...why is "masculine" considered by so many people as "straight acting"?...why not masculine as "gay acting"?
    Let me answer your question with a question.

    Why is stereotyping yourself in one set of proscribed, community-approved ways okay, positive and self-affirming, and others are not? Do we agree on those categories?

  16. #116
    Je suis Charlie blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    While we're at it, Straight, and Masculine ARE NOT synonyms.
    No - not "straight." "Straight-acting." BIG difference.

    We SA guys are not confusing the two.

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  17. #117
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I think the idea is that if you feel the need to MAKE the distinction in the first place - no matter what term you might use - then you are (intentionally or not) drawing a line between yourself and the homosexual community at large. That by feeling the need to mention it, you're saying "Yeah, I'm gay, but I'm not like them." Like a more subtle version of the entire g0y movement.

    Lex
    Lex, the homosexual community at this very moment is not doing a very good job of making me feel welcome or included.

  18. #118
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Pretty irrelevant, generally they are.
    Which tells us why you apply the term.
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  19. #119
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    While we're at it, Straight, and Masculine ARE NOT synonyms.
    We have no disagreement there.

    So perhaps you could answer the question I posed to you at least once already, what descriptor would you find non offensive? I'm not sure there is one, from the tone of this discussion. I'm just trying to get people to be honest or up front about that instead of pretending this is about 1 term.

  20. #120
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Lex, the homosexual community at this very moment is not doing a very good job of making me feel welcome or included.
    This argument will be going on when you are old and gray. It's been raging for decades. There is no answer to be had because it's about intangibles and perceptions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Yes mate, its called being apt.
    LOL, meaning what?

    I see we're fully into tit for tat.

    Tag.
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  21. #121
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    We have no disagreement there.

    So perhaps you could answer the question I posed to you at least once already, what descriptor would you find non offensive? I'm not sure there is one, from the tone of this discussion. I'm just trying to get people to be honest or up front about that instead of pretending this is about 1 term.

    Post number 98
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  22. #122

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Let me answer your question with a question.

    Why is stereotyping yourself in one set of proscribed, community-approved ways okay, positive and self-affirming, and others are not? Do we agree on those categories?
    Well...one of those definitions (SA) implies that straight people all act in a certain way...one that is different than "gay acting" people. I completely support anyone who choses to identify themselves that way...but I wonder about how they perceive me or the rest of the gay community?...and why they want to separate themselves?

    If you are gay...then you are naturally "gay acting" whatever your demeanor is IMO.

  23. #123
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Well...one of those definitions (SA) implies that straight people all act in a certain way...one that is different than "gay acting" people. I completely support anyone who choses to identify themselves that way...but I wonder about how they perceive me or the rest of the gay community?...and why they want to separate themselves?

    If you are gay...then you are naturally "gay acting" whatever your demeanor is IMO.
    That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

    Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.

  24. #124
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

    Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.
    If you saw that you brought it yourself. I certainly didn't say it.
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  25. #125
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Actually you can't find anywhere in here that I said anything like that at all.
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  26. #126
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    If you saw that you brought it yourself. I certainly didn't say it.
    I asked what descriptor would be non offensive and your answer was a non answer. It said that you should make no distinction at all.

    So do you have a non offensive descriptor or shall we keep beating around the bush?

  27. #127
    The gay gargoyle G-Lexington's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by blackbeltninja View Post
    Well... what term would you prefer? As I said many pages ago we all know what the term means, so as far as hook-up descriptors go it is in fact pretty perfect.
    That's just it. It doesn't matter what the term is. The basic argument from the get-go is this: "the sheer fact that you felt you needed to make the distinction in the first place is what makes me feel you're not worthy of my attention".

    What next, is there going to be a groundswell of support against self identifying size-queens and guys describing themselves as "hung" so as not to offend us average guys?
    The problem people are having is based on the feeling that by saying "straight-acting" or "masculine", you're saying "I'm gay, but I'm not, y'know, GAY gay". Buzzer hypothetically asked "If I say I'm bookish, does that demean athletes?" And no, it doesn't. But in that example, he's not distancing himself from the group he's placed himself into. If he said "I'm bookish, but I'm no nerd", or "I'm an athlete, but I'm no jock", I think we'd be in more similar situations. It suggests there's something wrong with "nerd" or "jock".

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Well on a dating site I think that's an important distinction to make.

    No offense but I'm not into dating fem guys. It's just not a set of traits I'm attracted to. Now while seeing straight-acting and masculine listed are turn-offs are for me, I feel somewhat relieved when someone lists "fem" because I know that person isn't for me.
    So seeing "masculine" is a turn-off, but seeing "fem" is a relief because it means you won't have to bother?

    I was saying to somebody offthread that I've noticed this only runs in one direction. We've seen and heard plenty of things similar to "He said he was masculine/straight-acting, but LOOK at him! He's not like that at all!" But have we EVER seen "he said he was effeminate, but LOOK at him! He's not like that at all!" Part of that probably has to do with internal homophobia and whatnot - anybody who feels comfortable enough to call themselves effeminate probably is. But then again, it also seems like the terms "straight-acting" and "masculine" work like a magnet - they pull in the eyeballs. Maybe those eyes have cynical glasses on, but they're looking nonetheless. I talked to a guy looking to increase the number of hits on his hook-up profile. My only suggestion was to swap "pretty average" to "straight-acting". Let's just say he got a LOT more responses that way.

    Lex

  28. #128
    Je suis Charlie blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Kien View Post
    It's not. It's just being blown waaaaaay out of proportion because people mostly only say that on online websites with the purpose of quick hookups!!!!

    Who goes up to a person and says, "Hey I'm straight-acting!" NO ONE.

    Gosh, Kien. Only online, Kien.
    Yes, but apparently these now have to be inclusive and politically correct. Didn't you get the memo?

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  29. #129
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    I agree and acknowledge the term is bad, or at least up for incredible misinterpretation. However I think there isn't a much better one out there. I also think assigning an entire philosophy to someone based off their use of it when there isn't a widely used better one is unfair.

    When I see the reactions in this thread to the term, I question if the offense is caused by the term itself or the distinction being made between masculine and effeminate gay men. Which is why I asked in the thread several times what else people would prefer, and if the distinction itself is what causes the offense.

    Unfortunately we have a very poor amount of terms... we don't have an equivalent of "African American" vs. "Black American" vs. "Negro" vs. etc. for some of these things so that people have a wide range of choices to describe themselves with and avoid misunderstanding. If I feel the need to type up a paragraph to say the same thing as "straight acting" without offending people I'm not sure how to more succinctly express the same meaning in a discussion.

    Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.

    I have a suspicion that if the thread had been "what do people think when they see 'masc' in a personal ad", this discussion would have still almost immediately gone to a discussion of internalized homophobia and offensive terminology.

    Do you think that's untrue?

    That's the way language works. You can't honestly say that Tx-Beau and a total random stranger calling you a faggot carries precisely the same interpretation to you. However I think this discussion has shown the complete opposite of what you are saying. It is, as Mitchy said... fine, validated, perfectly acceptable to be a self-proclaimed queen, diva, girl, bitch or whatever else. But if someone says straight-acting, god help you.

    I disagree. Mitchymo's post spoke very well. I think this forum does frequently suffer the notion of "if you were a healthy gay man, you would have evolved exactly as I have done, you'd feel exactly as I do, you'd behave as I do and you'd view yourself and your identity as I do."

    That's the point at which we are saying the stereotype is equivalent to the fact of being gay, however benevolent the intent may have started out, and however much it may come from a place of people wanting to help others be self-accepting. Would you describe me, or Mitchymo, as blatant homophobes or enemies of gay rights? This thread didn't start as me or Mitchy beginning a discussion about how being an effeminate or stereotypical gay guy is bad, however it did turn into plenty of people essentially saying we're guilty of any number of social crimes by association.
    1. The very need to define your level of gayness/straightness is already suspect. Straight men don't feel the need to measure how straight they are, why should GAY men measure how STRAIGHT they are?! O.o The distinction IS partly the cause for offense. Frankly, I live in one of the top five gayest neighborhoods in the country and I have honestly not experienced any relevant degree of limp-wristed cliche-queens. Those do exist but their relevance and symbolizing of gay culture is greatly exaggerated by many other gay men so that they can justify hiding they're gay.

    2. If the thread were discussing the term "masc", I'd still debate the need to explicitly state your level of masculinity, but the term itself is neutral. "Straight acting" turns "straight" into a degree of... something (a combination of masculinity and subscribing to "gay culture", it seems, as if there's only one), and this is not neutral in the least.

    3. Of course words have meaning depending on context. I have called Asians "orientals" when I didn't know the term was offensive. Which is kinda my point. Using "straight-acting" shows ignorance and insensitivity to the very very pregnant subtext of what the term actually says.

    4. Calling yourself a diva, girl and a bitch describes you. Calling yourself "straight acting" describes ME. You're making a general statement regarding what it means to be gay and how it relates to being straight

    5. Accusing the forum of some gay elitism is unfair. Internalized homophobia is a real and very pervasive thing in the world and to have this argument at all attests to that. We HAVE to deliberately and consciously fight these terms and their usage so that WE can evolve as a minority and stop feeling inferior. Or will you argue that gays in general don't subconsciously feel inferior to straights? Because it's terms like this that do that.

    6. You are way above playing victim, so I'll just pretend you didn't write the last paragraph.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  30. #130
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    As blackbelt noted, that its straight and masculine that are not synonymous like you first said, but straight-acting and masculine ARE.

    If i then ask myself why i don't just use masculine, its because that doesn't identify someone as gay, it identifies them as male or man-like.
    LOL. So call yourself a "masculine" gay man, problem solved.
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  31. #131
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaggii View Post

    Are you comparing ¨straight¨ with ¨faggot¨? Because one is a word, while the other is an insult, if used directly at someone. Some of us don´t think ¨gay¨is an insult if it´s said directly at someone, so why should ¨straight¨ be?
    Inaccurate comparison. "Faggot" is a one word insult. "Straight" on its own is neutral, but in the context used in the term "straight acting" we are no longer looking at the word but at the cultural significance its use here signifies.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  32. #132
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Are "trying not to appear gay" and "not intentionally trying to seem gay", to you, the same thing?

    Honest question.
    People who just don't seem gay wouldn't go out of their way to describe themselves as "straight acting" in my experience. I know I never have, and people don't usually peg me for a homersekshul.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I asked what descriptor would be non offensive and your answer was a non answer. It said that you should make no distinction at all.

    So do you have a non offensive descriptor or shall we keep beating around the bush?
    The answer was implicit, I am as I am make your own judgment - it won't change me. I challenge the need for "descriptor."
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  34. #134
    JUB Addict umjreon88's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    I find the term "straight-acting" to be the most hypocritical, digusting, insulting thing a guy can call himself or label someone else. Just because a guy is more in tuned with his "masculine" side doesn't mean that he is "straight-acting", it just means that he doesn't have the stereotypical "camp" and "feminine" behaviours and attitudes that society perpetuated!
    Last edited by umjreon88; September 25th, 2013 at 03:07 PM.
    "... You think the only people who are people
    Are the people who look and think like you ..." - Colours of the Wind by Vanessa Williams

  35. #135

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

    Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.
    In that case...the answer is simple. For those of use who wish to describe ourselves as masculine...use the word masculine versus "straight acting". Of course...the term masculine is subjective....

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I would if it was linguistically preferential. 'I'm a masculine gay' is 5 syllables 'i'm straight-acting' is 4.
    Liar liar pants on fire.
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  37. #137
    Je suis Charlie blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    That's just it. It doesn't matter what the term is. The basic argument from the get-go is this: "the sheer fact that you felt you needed to make the distinction in the first place is what makes me feel you're not worthy of my attention".
    It does matter, though. You get like 50 words to play with on these online sites. You could write an essay, or you could write "straight-acting" and we'd all know what you mean, and you'd still have 48 other words to bait your profile with. To me it's a simple transfer of theoretically unambiguous information, not a distinction of us vs them.

    On that note, I don't think my being straight acting makes me better than you.

    I also don't think that your being gay acting makes you better than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    The problem people are having is based on the feeling that by saying "straight-acting" or "masculine", you're saying "I'm gay, but I'm not, y'know, GAY gay". Buzzer hypothetically asked "If I say I'm bookish, does that demean athletes?" And no, it doesn't. But in that example, he's not distancing himself from the group he's placed himself into. If he said "I'm bookish, but I'm no nerd", or "I'm an athlete, but I'm no jock", I think we'd be in more similar situations. It suggests there's something wrong with "nerd" or "jock".
    Is that any different from being a bigger guy but not identifying and playing the role of a bear or cub? I may be new to the whole homo thing, but I'm under the impression that "bear" is an entire sub-culture of gay. But it doesn't have the same negative connotations attached to it as straight-acting does, even though if someone says "I'm a bear" we all know exactly what he means. So if a guy says "I'm big, but I'm not into the bear thing" are we going to write him off as self-loathing/deluded/smug/your epithet here?

    -d-
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  38. #138
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    The homophobic terms are entirely dependent. My problem with your position is that you far too often (imo) choose to take the literal words and ignore the context entirely. And many more do the same. You only have to look at the beginnings of this thread to see people confusing the contextual and literal meaning of the word 'acting'. I have not considered any baggage that may be associated with the term straight-acting BECAUSE there is no baggage intended. Its the like of you have applied baggage by insinuating that it is harming other gays or is a sign of repression and shame.

    Secondly, i am being defensive yes, too right i am. This post has attacked a percentage of gay guys, albeit a small percentage, but to which i include myself. The OP made me angry. I won't remain silent whilst people try to impose their own explanations of who and what i am. You did this in your post to, claiming that i'm like you used to be. Its rubbish. I don't see myself as being 'not one of them' or being god's gift to men by virtue of my absence of effeminacy.
    1. No, I'm sorry but there IS baggage. To claim otherwise is to ignore decades of straight-gay interaction, homophobic perceptions and internalized homophobia-related shame of being gay and/or gay culture. Just because YOU don't mean anything by using it doesn't negate that, and returns us to my example of niggers, faggots and mongoloids.

    2. I reiterate - whether you choose to dig deeper into analyzing why you choose a term that equates your "level of being gay" to that of a straight man or not, nobody here (except for TX, and that - in response to your frankly VERY defensive sounding rant) is trying to tell you either how you are or how you should be. What the thread is about, is the terminology and what feelings it brings in other members of your own community. "I don't do the bar scene and I'm on the masculine side of the spectrum" might be longer but it's infinitely more accurate and doesn't offend or describe (see one of my points in response to buzzer above) anyone else.
    Last edited by Rolyo85; September 25th, 2013 at 03:13 PM.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  39. #139

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    LOL. So call yourself a "masculine" gay man, problem solved.
    But that has the same harmful effect as straight-acting.

  40. #140
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    No it doesn't.
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  41. #141

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    No it doesn't.
    The need to put masculine implies (according to your logic) that feminine is negative or undesirable.

    Masculine and straight-acting are both subjective terms chock full of emotional and psychological baggage.

  42. #142
    Je suis Charlie blackbeltninja's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    1. The very need to define your level of gayness/straightness is already suspect. Straight men don't feel the need to measure how straight they are, why should GAY men measure how STRAIGHT they are?!
    Have you never picked up a hetero-aimed mens' magazine, like a Mens Health, Maxim, Stuff or FHM, or numerous others? Or never watched mainstream television, or never seen any adverts anywhere, ever?

    Heteros define their heteroness, and compare it to each other's, all the time.

    -d-
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    I hope you get this message.
    Comments welcome.

  43. #143
    美しいヨーロッパ Scealle's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Straight acting is a really weird term so I wouldn't really use that term to describe a masculine gay guy. If a gay guy is not stereo typically flamboyant then he's just gay or normal human homosex to me. To me straight acting usually is when someone tried to act straight or hides their homosexuality by bearding/closeted/ living a double life.I think a lot of gays these days are very masculine or normal/ non stereo typically flamboyant

  44. #144
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    1. The very need to define your level of gayness/straightness is already suspect. Straight men don't feel the need to measure how straight they are, why should GAY men measure how STRAIGHT they are?! O.o The distinction IS partly the cause for offense. Frankly, I live in one of the top five gayest neighborhoods in the country and I have honestly not experienced any relevant degree of limp-wristed cliche-queens. Those do exist but their relevance and symbolizing of gay culture is greatly exaggerated by many other gay men so that they can justify hiding they're gay.
    I agree the term is bad. What I'm trying to ask is are you inherently offended by someone objectively distinguishing between the effeminate and the masculine, even if that person is doing it with no intention of slighting the other group?

    3. Of course words have meaning depending on context. I have called Asians "orientals" when I didn't know the term was offensive. Which is kinda my point. Using "straight-acting" shows ignorance and insensitivity to the very very pregnant subtext of what the term actually says.
    I agree but my issue here is that when it's like extracting teeth with no painkillers to ask people to propose alternatives, it does not imply to me the problem is with the term, it implies to me that some people feel incredibly threatened in any context where a distinction between masculine and feminine comes up.

    4. Calling yourself a diva, girl and a bitch describes you. Calling yourself "straight acting" describes ME. You're making a general statement regarding what it means to be gay and how it relates to being straight
    I agree the term is very open to that interpretation and indeed probably many people who use it do have that intent. I disagree that any distinction of masculine and feminine carries this stigma in intent, by even noticing it whatsoever.

    5. Accusing the forum of some gay elitism is unfair. Internalized homophobia is a real and very pervasive thing in the world and to have this argument at all attests to that. We HAVE to deliberately and consciously fight these terms and their usage so that WE can evolve as a minority and stop feeling inferior. Or will you argue that gays in general don't subconsciously feel inferior to straights? Because it's terms like this that do that.
    I simply think that I should feel proud of and support someone who has come along his gay path in life as an effeminate man and that I should not be questioned on whether or not I'm attacking people when I'm proud of mine as a non-effeminate man. This thread has been less about all inclusion and more about what suspicions, prejudices and hatreds people automatically assign to people who make the distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    People who just don't seem gay wouldn't go out of their way to describe themselves as "straight acting" in my experience. I know I never have, and people don't usually peg me for a homersekshul.
    If it's inappropriate to call verbal attention to one's masculinity, it's equally so to call verbal attention to one's status as a queen or a diva or a bitch, because it creates a division and people fall on sides of divisions-- it works both ways. If you want to be seen as a queen (or any other term which I by no means begrudge anyone from embracing) that is fine, so long as you respect my wish to not identify that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    In that case...the answer is simple. For those of use who wish to describe ourselves as masculine...use the word masculine versus "straight acting". Of course...the term masculine is subjective....
    Thank you for the answer.

  45. #145
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    The need to put masculine implies (according to your logic) that feminine is negative or undesirable.

    Masculine and straight-acting are both subjective terms chock full of emotional and psychological baggage.
    Nope, that "logic" came from your head, and you are responsible for it.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  46. #146

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    "Straight Acting" is exactly about how being effeminate is bad. There is simply no other reason to describe oneself thus.

    Any person upon meeting you will see you. What your mannerisms are, whether you "fit" a stereotype or not. "SA" is not about rights or meta whatever, it's a label a guy puts on himself, a self stereotype that has to do with how he feels bout HIMSELF.

    I could care less about wanting to Help people becoming more accepting - if they ask, I'll do what I can, but other than that, people move at their own speed. This does not negate the fact that there ARE commonalities of experience and issues that recur. He did not invent SA. It's not "just his way."

    If he's going to use that term he's going to have to deal with all the baggage it carries. What he's asking us to do is NOT to see him as an individual, but as the stereotype he finds more acceptable than that other one.
    Fine. I'll go back to the drawing board here.

    Straight-acting is an easy way to say "You can predict my behavior and interests to be what you see in most straight men."

    It's not about whether being feminine or masculine is bad. It's just a shortcut so that men seeking someone who appears straight can be drawn to this person's profile.

    Your passionate overanalyzing is a waste of energy. It's not that serious.

  47. #147
    I need water Kabluey's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    It's a cop out - no where near descriptive enough.
    Straight acting could mean anything. I want some definites:

    Are you Marlon-Brando-acting?


    Steve-Carell-acting?


    or Not-Particularly-Good-At-acting?
    Blah blah blah, something enigmatic sounding...

  48. #148
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    You're welcome to that view. It doesn't change the fact that if a shorter, just as apt word came about for describing the same thing, i'd use that without a second thought either.
    Thank you.
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  49. #149
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    When I describe myself as bookish am I insulting sports fans?

    If you call yourself queeny acting are you insulting masculinity?

    That is in my opinion an error and a disservice on your part to equate them. Essentially you are saying that a gay man who is not making an intentional effort to fit a stereotype is just faking his lack of stereotypical traits.

    If that's your position, fine, but then don't complain when the mainstream stereotypes you, because you have equated the stereotype as being integral to being gay at all.
    That's woefully inaccurate. You are comparing random personality qualities with a binary term. When it comes to sexuality, "straight" has an opposite. Only one. And that's the one you're not acting like when you're straight acting.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  50. #150
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckysRevenge View Post
    Fine. I'll go back to the drawing board here.

    Straight-acting is an easy way to say "You can predict my behavior and interests to be what you see in most straight men."

    It's not about whether being feminine or masculine is bad. It's just a shortcut so that men seeking someone who appears straight can be drawn to this person's profile.

    Your passionate overanalyzing is a waste of energy. It's not that serious.
    I don't agree with your "definition" of SA.

    I do find it funny that people keep trying to tell me about loathe this and passionate that - at least twice I pointed out that on the ground this is relatively minor in at least my life, and that net discussions go like this.

    I can only conclude that you are trying to mis-characterize my fervor for some mischievous reason of your own.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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