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  1. #51
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Buzzer, my problem is not with the "acting" part but with the fact that it equates "straight" with "masculine" and worse - with "not gay". No gay man should describe himself as "not gay". That's spitting in the face of everything about the fight for equality. It ABSOLUTELY doesn't matter what random ignorant breeders think when they hear "gay". The folks who use "straight acting" are gay men communicating with other gay men. The term really has nothing to do with straights' perception, even if some of them might have a notion of what "acting gay" is.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  2. #52

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by journo25 View Post
    Who decides what constitutes "masculine?" Society... and it is entirely subjective. Is a straight man who prefers opera to sports less masculine than a gay man who is a rabid sports fan? I suspect many people would think so based on stereotypical beliefs of what "regular guys" should be into (bowling over bridge; beer over wine...).
    Yes he's not a guy's guy. And it's a dating profile. It's supposed to give as much information in as few characters.
    It's not a thesis.

  3. #53
    Kien
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    Or, to sum it up in a quote - "There are two types of gay men - flamers and liars."

    Lex
    That's pretty much what I got from reading this thread. It's like gay guys aren't allowed to be masculine without being accused of repressing their "gay side," yet we, as gay men, would like to see the stereotype of the typical flamboyant gay to be broken. But we're not allowing that because of this witch hunt.

    When gay guys say they're "straight-acting," they most likely mean masculine. Live with it. Is that a term we would like to see used? Not really. But no need to make a huge fuss about a misinformed person's use of terms and semantics.

    Why put it out there in the first place? Insecurities about being gay? Possibly, but not always. People, including ourselves (especially on online dating/hookup websites) categorize others and themselves in any way possible, and feminine/masculine is just another category; another box for them to check. It's not something to persecute them for.

  4. #54
    Porn Star xboxfan34's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Honestly, I find terms like "straight acting" kind of a stab at gays like me. I identify myself as a part of the bear culture, chiefly due to the fact that masculine gay men turn me on one would believe I'm straight acting because of the fact that I don't act stereotypical. I don't say that everything is fabulous or wear pink or drink Pink Ladies or whateverthefuck people associate gays with. It's not my personality, it's not who I am.

    In the end, I believe it's just semantics.

  5. #55
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxfan34 View Post
    Honestly, I find terms like "straight acting" kind of a stab at gays like me. I identify myself as a part of the bear culture, chiefly due to the fact that masculine gay men turn me on one would believe I'm straight acting because of the fact that I don't act stereotypical. I don't say that everything is fabulous or wear pink or drink Pink Ladies or whateverthefuck people associate gays with. It's not my personality, it's not who I am.

    In the end, I believe it's just semantics.
    Believe it or not, some of the bears I see look masculine but when a Madonna or show tune plays in a bar.... Damn, they went from butch to dancing queen.

  6. #56

    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by GamerBear View Post
    Believe it or not, some of the bears I see look masculine but when a Madonna or show tune plays in a bar.... Damn, they went from butch to dancing queen.
    Agreed. Masculine and straight acting aren't the same to me.
    But most "straight-acting" guys definitely aren't straight

  7. #57
    Lil' Demon Beggar MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    But where's the difference? As I said in my post, I have plenty of masculine characteristics. And as I said, they certainly SEEM to be "genuine" - at least, I don't feel any sense of self-betrayal when I exhibit them, anymore than I feel I'm not being myself when I cross my legs, or do anything that might be deemed effeminate. But there are those that insist that all such behaviors and traits ARE in fact "acts". Or, to sum it up in a quote - "There are two types of gay men - flamers and liars."

    Lex
    I could imagine that there are plenty of straight people who think that any gay person exhibiting any sort of behavior that isn't "normal gay behavior" is acting, but that is just a matter of perception and ignorance. The difference is someone being comfortable with themselves regardless of what others think and the other are people who embrace being seen as "straight" and being that way to seem "less gay."

    --

    To add I personally don't have a problem with people who are either masculine or feminine or whatever, whether they're gay, straight or whatever else. I don't attribute either of those being specifically gay or straight qualities either.

  8. #58
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    I could imagine that there are plenty of straight people who think that any gay person exhibiting any sort of behavior that isn't "normal gay behavior" is acting, but that is just a matter of perception and ignorance.
    To the best of my knowledge, no straight person has ever accused me of "acting straight". Oh, I might have had a stray ignorant person say "I thought all gay guys loved Cher" or something, but they didn't claim the masculine traits I exhibited were phony. I've only heard that from other gay guys. Usually phrased in ways like this: "Oh, look at your wearing your football jersey, acting like a straight guy. Who do you think you're fooling with that?" (Um, nobody?)

    Lex

  9. #59
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    When I emphasise the sense of "dramatic portrayal" in the word "acting," I'm not unaware that it has other meanings. It's actually a deliberate choice to recast a commonly and unthinkingly used expression in a way to provoke thought about its underlying meaning.

    What is it to be a straight-behaving gay male? How straight-behaving is a guy when his balls are resting on another guy's chin?

    "No, no, no, that's not it. I mean people perceive me as conforming to their stereotypes of heterosexual identity. That makes me straight-behaving!"

    Oh really? Well that suggests living up to the audience's perception of enacting a dramatis personae, and the term fits. The somewhat unfair joke about Keanu Reeves is that his acting skill comes from being cast in roles where he only has to play himself. But it's still a role and still an actor. And in a way I'm also obliquely referencing the ideas of Judith Butler though it pains me to do so. I have no use for "post-structuralist philosophy" and much of it and of queer theory is marxist claptrap and utter nonsensical bunk. But the idea of "performing gender" is not exactly vacuous. In referring to acting in the dramatic sense, I'm poking fun at a narrow idea of what "straight" or "gay" actually means. Or masculinity for that matter. I'm advocating for a broader definition of masculinity, because that stereotype is brutally narrow.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  10. #60
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    When I emphasise the sense of "dramatic portrayal" in the word "acting," I'm not unaware that it has other meanings. It's actually a deliberate choice to recast a commonly and unthinkingly used expression in a way to provoke thought about its underlying meaning.

    What is it to be a straight-behaving gay male? How straight-behaving is a guy when his balls are resting on another guy's chin?

    "No, no, no, that's not it. I mean people perceive me as conforming to their stereotypes of heterosexual identity. That makes me straight-behaving!"

    Oh really? Well that suggests living up to the audience's perception of enacting a dramatis personae, and the term fits. The somewhat unfair joke about Keanu Reeves is that his acting skill comes from being cast in roles where he only has to play himself. But it's still a role and still an actor. And in a way I'm also obliquely referencing the ideas of Judith Butler though it pains me to do so. I have no use for "post-structuralist philosophy" and much of it and of queer theory is marxist claptrap and utter nonsensical bunk. But the idea of "performing gender" is not exactly vacuous. In referring to acting in the dramatic sense, I'm poking fun at a narrow idea of what "straight" or "gay" actually means. Or masculinity for that matter. I'm advocating for a broader definition of masculinity, because that stereotype is brutally narrow.
    If you choose to interpret it that way, sure.

    Doesn't universalize it into being a fact of everyone's intent.

    I would say I'm pretty ordinary and that people don't usually have a specific or marked prejudgment of my sexual preference from seeing or meeting me--- which, due to the heterosexual majority of the human population, typically means people default to assuming you're straight until you tell them otherwise.

    And I would say that my ability to say so is not a sign of a dysfunction or -any- deliberate effort on my part to "be" something unnatural to me.

    Like your post and many in this thread are claiming.

  11. #61
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Also, to say "it's just semantics" is like saying "faggot" and "bigger" are just words. What words we chose and what actually stands behind both the choice and the origin of the expression.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  12. #62
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Also, to say "it's just semantics" is like saying "faggot" and "bigger" are just words. What words we chose and what actually stands behind both the choice and the origin of the expression.
    So as I said in my previous post, we agree the word is bad/awkward/inapt.

    So what would you suggest instead? Or is any cognizance of any difference between effeminate and less effeminate gay men inherently offensive to acknowledge in any form?

  13. #63
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So as I said in my previous post, we agree the word is bad/awkward/inapt.

    So what would you suggest instead? Or is any cognizance of any difference between effeminate and less effeminate gay men inherently offensive to acknowledge in any form?
    I prefer ...I am an individual who is gay...versus a gay individual.

  14. #64
    mitchymo
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Straight acting is code for "I try to be butch cause I'm ashamed to be gay". Utterly pathetic, I feel nothing but loathing for people who use it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    The term is offensive to gay people, that's a fact.
    The problem with militants like yourself, is very much that you seem to think you're self made experts on what being gay means to other gay people simply because you happen to be also. You're not. You don't get to describe the term straight-acting as offensive to gay people as a fact, because its not a fact. If it was true for most gay people, its only a generalization, much like stereotypes are.

    I AM STRAIGHT-ACTING, feel free to loathe me. I'm not going to change who i am just because you don't like it. It is YOUR problem, and anyone else who has an issue with the term. Most people who have an issue just don't 'get' it, which is fine, but no justification for jumping on the bandwagon that it represents shame or repression or an intent to stigmatize effeminate gay men.

    I use the term straight-acting as an identifier. I do not use it before, or in place of gay. I say i'm gay, just like every other gay person says they are. But, if someone makes a comment that they'd never have guessed i was gay, or they didn't have a clue (and this has happened a lot in my personal experience), i'll say something like "yeah well, i'm more of a straight-acting type".

    For guys that who identify as straight-acting, the traditional gay stereotype is generally disliked, foremost because it fails to represent them. For most gay guys, stereotypes are disliked full stop, especially the traditional one. No gay guy, whether butch or effeminate appreciates having their sexual orientation belittle their personage. The traditional 'camp' stereotype does exactly that, by attacking our masculinity.
    I'm not saying here that effeminate men are somehow weak links in the gay cause to be accepted, far from it. The stereotype exists because effeminate men are more visible. But what i am saying is that some gay guys seem intent on maintaining that sterotype by dismissing any other stereotype that comes along.
    It seems that its only gay men who refuse to adopt any labels that get a nod of approval from stereotypicaly gay guys, and straight-acting gays are problematic, repressed or ashamed. Its a transferal of bitterness as far as i'm concerned. You see, if nobody used stereotypes, it wouldn't change anything, it wouldn't stop people being themselves, however they are. Some camp guys loathe the fact that some gay men are naturally less effeminate, and that creates a sense of bitterness, because ultimately as gay men, we ARE attracted to that which is male (thus, effminate ideals are generally less appealing). Then along comes a sterotype, adopted by some gay men themselves (not imposed on us by straights in the way that rolyo imposes 'breeders' on straights, which i find just as loathsome btw) and now suddenly its not a case of gay men being themselves, but gay men undermining the traditional stereotype. Its not true, and its offensive, to try and undermine other gay men, like myself, who are perfectly secure and unashamed in our sexuality, by driving away any stereotype other than the age old typical, whilst at the same time moaning that steroetypes are bad full stop. If that is what you believe, you wouldn't be trying to affirm one over the other, you'd just allow gays to identify as they identify themselves, whether you like it or not.

    How many of you pipe up when straight-acting is used by one gay, but sit back and have no problem with the usage of the terms, queer, queen or diva by another eh?? Its offensive to argue that effeminate descriptors are fine but that masculine ones are an assault on the effeminate. I don't like the traditional stereotype, you might not like my own identifying term straight-acting, but at least i don't go around attacking you for yours.

    You need to grow up and let gay men who are different, BE different, instead of making out you're an international spokesperson for an entire community.

    I have no guilt, no shame, no need to justify myself to the likes of you. So yeah, loathe me, its water off a duck's back.

  15. #65
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Now I am wondering...do any straight guys say they are "gay acting"? It would seem they should since a lot of straight women like gay guys.

  16. #66
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I would say I'm pretty ordinary and that people don't usually have a specific or marked prejudgment of my sexual preference from seeing or meeting me--- which, due to the heterosexual majority of the human population, typically means people default to assuming you're straight until you tell them otherwise.

    And I would say that my ability to say so is not a sign of a dysfunction or -any- deliberate effort on my part to "be" something unnatural to me.

    Like your post and many in this thread are claiming.
    It's not about how you act or how others think you act. It is about what words you use to describe it - to yourself and others.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  17. #67
    The Journey of a Lifetime Adrock-JD's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Society decides these things. It isn't really what a person does or doesn't do but rather how they act or behave while doing them. There are traits associated with masculinity that arose simply because that is how the majority of males typically behave. It isn't some rule or requirement but it is the societal norm. Anything outside the norm can result in ostracization.

    Some gay/bisexual men are attracted to typical masculine behaviors and are turned-off by feminine ones. Yes, it can be taken to another level by shunning behaviors they don't like but that's not entirely the same issue.

    I don't have a problem with someone requesting "straight acting" because I know what they mean. They aren't necessarily intending to insult or put down anyone. It's merely a simple way of stating what you are into. Faking this behavior oneself is very difficult to manage and another matter altogether.

  18. #68
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If you choose to interpret it that way, sure.

    Doesn't universalize it into being a fact of everyone's intent.

    I would say I'm pretty ordinary and that people don't usually have a specific or marked prejudgment of my sexual preference from seeing or meeting me--- which, due to the heterosexual majority of the human population, typically means people default to assuming you're straight until you tell them otherwise.

    And I would say that my ability to say so is not a sign of a dysfunction or -any- deliberate effort on my part to "be" something unnatural to me.

    Like your post and many in this thread are claiming.
    The bold part of your remarks is exactly the idea I wish to challenge.

    People often assume I'm straight based on my demeanour. That's their mistake. Occasionally, if a person's conception of heterosexuality is of a beer-swilling jock who gets drunk at sports bars whilst shouting "Yawww" when a goal is scored and is otherwise occupied with remarks about women's tits, they will assume I am gay. But they will assume it of any male who does not do these things. Again, that's their mistake. I have no interest in catering to their assumptions of convenience. And I have no interest in seeing other people identify their sexuality or their character against that flawed kind of standard.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  19. #69
    Lil' Demon Beggar MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    I have no guilt, no shame, no need to justify myself to the likes of you. So yeah, loathe me, its water off a duck's back.
    Yet, here you are.

  20. #70
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Also, to say "it's just semantics" is like saying "faggot" and "bigger" are just words. What words we chose and what actually stands behind both the choice and the origin of the expression.
    Well they ARE just words. Fucking vile words but nevertheless, words.

  21. #71
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    So as I said in my previous post, we agree the word is bad/awkward/inapt.

    So what would you suggest instead? Or is any cognizance of any difference between effeminate and less effeminate gay men inherently offensive to acknowledge in any form?
    Just say masculine, or whatever else best describes your traits and qualities. Don't use inherently homophobic terminology.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  22. #72
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Now I am wondering...do any straight guys say they are "gay acting"? It would seem they should since a lot of straight women like gay guys.
    I know right?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  23. #73
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Mitch, your internalized homophobia or lack thereof is not the focus of this thread. If you'd read beyond my initial post (the purpose of which was simply stirring the pot obviously)? You'd have seen that it's not about how you act or perceive yourself, but what words you use to describe it. Just because you're outraged that a term you never thought twice before using has heavy baggage attached to it, doesn't make the baggage not there.

    Same as if I called Asians "mongoloids" and claimed I didn't consider it offensive (or - for more accuracy, of an Asian called himself so).

    Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  24. #74
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The problem with militants like yourself, is very much that you seem to think you're self made experts on what being gay means to other gay people simply because you happen to be also. You're not. You don't get to describe the term straight-acting as offensive to gay people as a fact, because its not a fact. If it was true for most gay people, its only a generalization, much like stereotypes are.

    I AM STRAIGHT-ACTING, feel free to loathe me. I'm not going to change who i am just because you don't like it. It is YOUR problem, and anyone else who has an issue with the term. Most people who have an issue just don't 'get' it, which is fine, but no justification for jumping on the bandwagon that it represents shame or repression or an intent to stigmatize effeminate gay men.

    I use the term straight-acting as an identifier. I do not use it before, or in place of gay. I say i'm gay, just like every other gay person says they are. But, if someone makes a comment that they'd never have guessed i was gay, or they didn't have a clue (and this has happened a lot in my personal experience), i'll say something like "yeah well, i'm more of a straight-acting type".

    For guys that who identify as straight-acting, the traditional gay stereotype is generally disliked, foremost because it fails to represent them. For most gay guys, stereotypes are disliked full stop, especially the traditional one. No gay guy, whether butch or effeminate appreciates having their sexual orientation belittle their personage. The traditional 'camp' stereotype does exactly that, by attacking our masculinity.
    I'm not saying here that effeminate men are somehow weak links in the gay cause to be accepted, far from it. The stereotype exists because effeminate men are more visible. But what i am saying is that some gay guys seem intent on maintaining that sterotype by dismissing any other stereotype that comes along.
    It seems that its only gay men who refuse to adopt any labels that get a nod of approval from stereotypicaly gay guys, and straight-acting gays are problematic, repressed or ashamed. Its a transferal of bitterness as far as i'm concerned. You see, if nobody used stereotypes, it wouldn't change anything, it wouldn't stop people being themselves, however they are. Some camp guys loathe the fact that some gay men are naturally less effeminate, and that creates a sense of bitterness, because ultimately as gay men, we ARE attracted to that which is male (thus, effminate ideals are generally less appealing). Then along comes a sterotype, adopted by some gay men themselves (not imposed on us by straights in the way that rolyo imposes 'breeders' on straights, which i find just as loathsome btw) and now suddenly its not a case of gay men being themselves, but gay men undermining the traditional stereotype. Its not true, and its offensive, to try and undermine other gay men, like myself, who are perfectly secure and unashamed in our sexuality, by driving away any stereotype other than the age old typical, whilst at the same time moaning that steroetypes are bad full stop. If that is what you believe, you wouldn't be trying to affirm one over the other, you'd just allow gays to identify as they identify themselves, whether you like it or not.

    How many of you pipe up when straight-acting is used by one gay, but sit back and have no problem with the usage of the terms, queer, queen or diva by another eh?? Its offensive to argue that effeminate descriptors are fine but that masculine ones are an assault on the effeminate. I don't like the traditional stereotype, you might not like my own identifying term straight-acting, but at least i don't go around attacking you for yours.

    You need to grow up and let gay men who are different, BE different, instead of making out you're an international spokesperson for an entire community.

    I have no guilt, no shame, no need to justify myself to the likes of you. So yeah, loathe me, its water off a duck's back.
    Mary please.

    You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.

    I know this terrain, I used to be you, congratulating myself how “guy,” I was, how I wasn’t’ that gay, thinking how normal and what a gift I was to gay men everywhere.

    Protest that if you want. I don’t believe you. That permeates your post.

    For guys who call themselves “SA” the general gay stereotype is disliked because they don’t want to be associated with it, and not because it’s not really them, because they have a problem being associated with it – and next time you feel inclined to tell your “straight” friends who’re all atwitter at how straight you appear – perhaps you might say that gay men populate a whole wonderful spectrum INSTEAD of telling them that really you’re just a straight guy who sucks cock.

    Because in the end YOU ARE NOT STRIAGHT ACTING UNLESS YOU FUCK TWAT. That is the ONLY behavior common to all straight men.

    Period.

    “SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay.

    There it is.
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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Mitch, your internalized homophobia or lack thereof is not the focus of this thread. If you'd read beyond my initial post (the purpose of which was simply stirring the pot obviously)? You'd have seen that it's not about how you act or perceive yourself, but what words you use to describe it. Just because you're outraged that a term you never thought twice before using has heavy baggage attached to it, doesn't make the baggage not there.

    Same as if I called Asians "mongoloids" and claimed I didn't consider it offensive (or - for more accuracy, of an Asian called himself so).

    Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...
    I disagree, it is about how one perceives oneself at it's very core.

    The need to distance oneself from a "stereotype," by stereotype. Since there is no common straight "acting" (save twat) what does it mean? It means adherence to some kind of cultural definition of "guy," that explicitly excludes evidence of "gay behavior."

    Count how often these guys reference how "people' would never guess they are gay. SO what.

    It is precicesly about how one percieves onself.
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, no straight person has ever accused me of "acting straight".
    Neither have I been accused... except for some JUB members who insist that, if you appear to be straight to the general public, you are acting that way and denying your feminine side and behaviour. Gay men are, apparently, queens by nature.

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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    Neither have I been accused... except for some JUB members who insist that, if you appear to be straight to the general public, you are acting that way and denying your feminine side and behaviour. Gay men are, apparently, queens by nature.
    Gay men are who they are - I've never seen a self labeled (have you really seen any other kind) SA guy (including myself) who wasn't ultimately trying to convince himself.
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It's not about how you act or how others think you act. It is about what words you use to describe it - to yourself and others.
    I agree and acknowledge the term is bad, or at least up for incredible misinterpretation. However I think there isn't a much better one out there. I also think assigning an entire philosophy to someone based off their use of it when there isn't a widely used better one is unfair.

    When I see the reactions in this thread to the term, I question if the offense is caused by the term itself or the distinction being made between masculine and effeminate gay men. Which is why I asked in the thread several times what else people would prefer, and if the distinction itself is what causes the offense.

    Unfortunately we have a very poor amount of terms... we don't have an equivalent of "African American" vs. "Black American" vs. "Negro" vs. etc. for some of these things so that people have a wide range of choices to describe themselves with and avoid misunderstanding. If I feel the need to type up a paragraph to say the same thing as "straight acting" without offending people I'm not sure how to more succinctly express the same meaning in a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The bold part of your remarks is exactly the idea I wish to challenge.

    People often assume I'm straight based on my demeanour. That's their mistake. Occasionally, if a person's conception of heterosexuality is of a beer-swilling jock who gets drunk at sports bars whilst shouting "Yawww" when a goal is scored and is otherwise occupied with remarks about women's tits, they will assume I am gay. But they will assume it of any male who does not do these things. Again, that's their mistake. I have no interest in catering to their assumptions of convenience. And I have no interest in seeing other people identify their sexuality or their character against that flawed kind of standard.
    Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Just say masculine, or whatever else best describes your traits and qualities. Don't use inherently homophobic terminology.
    I have a suspicion that if the thread had been "what do people think when they see 'masc' in a personal ad", this discussion would have still almost immediately gone to a discussion of internalized homophobia and offensive terminology.

    Do you think that's untrue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...
    That's the way language works. You can't honestly say that Tx-Beau and a total random stranger calling you a faggot carries precisely the same interpretation to you. However I think this discussion has shown the complete opposite of what you are saying. It is, as Mitchy said... fine, validated, perfectly acceptable to be a self-proclaimed queen, diva, girl, bitch or whatever else. But if someone says straight-acting, god help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Mary please.

    You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.
    I disagree. Mitchymo's post spoke very well. I think this forum does frequently suffer the notion of "if you were a healthy gay man, you would have evolved exactly as I have done, you'd feel exactly as I do, you'd behave as I do and you'd view yourself and your identity as I do."

    That's the point at which we are saying the stereotype is equivalent to the fact of being gay, however benevolent the intent may have started out, and however much it may come from a place of people wanting to help others be self-accepting. Would you describe me, or Mitchymo, as blatant homophobes or enemies of gay rights? This thread didn't start as me or Mitchy beginning a discussion about how being an effeminate or stereotypical gay guy is bad, however it did turn into plenty of people essentially saying we're guilty of any number of social crimes by association.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; September 25th, 2013 at 12:41 PM.

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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Also, to say "it's just semantics" is like saying "faggot" and "bigger" are just words. What words we chose and what actually stands behind both the choice and the origin of the expression.
    Are you comparing ¨straight¨ with ¨faggot¨? Because one is a word, while the other is an insult, if used directly at someone. Some of us don´t think ¨gay¨is an insult if it´s said directly at someone, so why should ¨straight¨ be?

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Now I am wondering...do any straight guys say they are "gay acting"? It would seem they should since a lot of straight women like gay guys.
    Some do. Mario Vaquerizo is the best example that comes in my mind, but I don´t know how much non-Spain residents know about him.
    Last edited by aaggii; September 25th, 2013 at 12:44 PM.
    ¨Beware the fury of a patient man¨ - John Dryden

  30. #80
    Lil' Demon Beggar MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, no straight person has ever accused me of "acting straight".

    Lex
    Whether they do or not, peoples perception of others isn't what I am referring to. It is the people who decide to consider themselves "straight acting" and trying to not appear "gay."

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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    Whether they do or not, peoples perception of others isn't what I am referring to. It is the people who decide to consider themselves "straight acting" and trying to not appear "gay."
    Are "trying not to appear gay" and "not intentionally trying to seem gay", to you, the same thing?

    Honest question.

  32. #82
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    Yet, here you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Mitch, your internalized homophobia or lack thereof is not the focus of this thread. If you'd read beyond my initial post (the purpose of which was simply stirring the pot obviously)? You'd have seen that it's not about how you act or perceive yourself, but what words you use to describe it. Just because you're outraged that a term you never thought twice before using has heavy baggage attached to it, doesn't make the baggage not there.

    Same as if I called Asians "mongoloids" and claimed I didn't consider it offensive (or - for more accuracy, of an Asian called himself so).

    Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...
    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Mary please.

    You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.

    I know this terrain, I used to be you, congratulating myself how “guy,” I was, how I wasn’t’ that gay, thinking how normal and what a gift I was to gay men everywhere.

    Protest that if you want. I don’t believe you. That permeates your post.

    For guys who call themselves “SA” the general gay stereotype is disliked because they don’t want to be associated with it, and not because it’s not really them, because they have a problem being associated with it – and next time you feel inclined to tell your “straight” friends who’re all atwitter at how straight you appear – perhaps you might say that gay men populate a whole wonderful spectrum INSTEAD of telling them that really you’re just a straight guy who sucks cock.

    Because in the end YOU ARE NOT STRIAGHT ACTING UNLESS YOU FUCK TWAT. That is the ONLY behavior common to all straight men.

    Period.

    “SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay.

    There it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    Yet, here you are.
    I posted to challenge a misconception, not to justify my position. Maybe next i'll not bother posting, but if i took that position, i guess we'd be here visiting a JUB dictatorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Mitch, your internalized homophobia or lack thereof is not the focus of this thread. If you'd read beyond my initial post (the purpose of which was simply stirring the pot obviously)? You'd have seen that it's not about how you act or perceive yourself, but what words you use to describe it. Just because you're outraged that a term you never thought twice before using has heavy baggage attached to it, doesn't make the baggage not there.

    Same as if I called Asians "mongoloids" and claimed I didn't consider it offensive (or - for more accuracy, of an Asian called himself so).

    Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...
    The homophobic terms are entirely dependent. My problem with your position is that you far too often (imo) choose to take the literal words and ignore the context entirely. And many more do the same. You only have to look at the beginnings of this thread to see people confusing the contextual and literal meaning of the word 'acting'. I have not considered any baggage that may be associated with the term straight-acting BECAUSE there is no baggage intended. Its the like of you have applied baggage by insinuating that it is harming other gays or is a sign of repression and shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Mary please.

    You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.

    I know this terrain, I used to be you, congratulating myself how “guy,” I was, how I wasn’t’ that gay, thinking how normal and what a gift I was to gay men everywhere.

    Protest that if you want. I don’t believe you. That permeates your post.

    For guys who call themselves “SA” the general gay stereotype is disliked because they don’t want to be associated with it, and not because it’s not really them, because they have a problem being associated with it – and next time you feel inclined to tell your “straight” friends who’re all atwitter at how straight you appear – perhaps you might say that gay men populate a whole wonderful spectrum INSTEAD of telling them that really you’re just a straight guy who sucks cock.

    Because in the end YOU ARE NOT STRIAGHT ACTING UNLESS YOU FUCK TWAT. That is the ONLY behavior common to all straight men.

    Period.

    “SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay.

    There it is.
    Firstly, why have you started your post with 'mary please'. You do know that i'm a guy right? You are doing the very thing that homphobes do. You are making me out to be a woman. Maybe in your mindset, you're just trying to be funny, but its not much of a joke.

    Secondly, i am being defensive yes, too right i am. This post has attacked a percentage of gay guys, albeit a small percentage, but to which i include myself. The OP made me angry. I won't remain silent whilst people try to impose their own explanations of who and what i am. You did this in your post to, claiming that i'm like you used to be. Its rubbish. I don't see myself as being 'not one of them' or being god's gift to men by virtue of my absence of effeminacy.

    Lastly, in response to this:
    For guys who call themselves “SA” the general gay stereotype is disliked because they don’t want to be associated with it, and not because it’s not really them, because they have a problem being associated with it
    You say that we don't want to be associated with the stereotype, rather than it not being representative, as if the two things are completely unconnected. The whole point is that the two are very connected. I don't like the gay stereotype because it doesn't represent how i feel about myself and what i go for. Its nothing to do with a looking down on the stereotype itself.

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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I agree and acknowledge the term is bad, or at least up for incredible misinterpretation. However I think there isn't a much better one out there. I also think assigning an entire philosophy to someone based off their use of it when there isn't a widely used better one is unfair.

    When I see the reactions in this thread to the term, I question if the offense is caused by the term itself or the distinction being made between masculine and effeminate gay men. Which is why I asked in the thread several times what else people would prefer, and if the distinction itself is what causes the offense.

    Unfortunately we have a very poor amount of terms... we don't have an equivalent of "African American" vs. "Black American" vs. "Negro" vs. etc. for some of these things so that people have a wide range of choices to describe themselves with and avoid misunderstanding. If I feel the need to type up a paragraph to say the same thing as "straight acting" without offending people I'm not sure how to more succinctly express the same meaning in a discussion.



    Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.



    I have a suspicion that if the thread had been "what do people think when they see 'masc' in a personal ad", this discussion would have still almost immediately gone to a discussion of internalized homophobia and offensive terminology.

    Do you think that's untrue?



    That's the way language works. You can't honestly say that Tx-Beau and a total random stranger calling you a faggot carries precisely the same interpretation to you. However I think this discussion has shown the complete opposite of what you are saying. It is, as Mitchy said... fine, validated, perfectly acceptable to be a self-proclaimed queen, diva, girl, bitch or whatever else. But if someone says straight-acting, god help you.



    I disagree. Mitchymo's post spoke very well. I think this forum does frequently suffer the notion of "if you were a healthy gay man, you would have evolved exactly as I have done, you'd feel exactly as I do, you'd behave as I do and you'd view yourself and your identity as I do."

    That's the point at which we are saying the stereotype is equivalent to the fact of being gay, however benevolent the intent may have started out, and however much it may come from a place of people wanting to help others be self-accepting. Would you describe me, or Mitchymo, as blatant homophobes or enemies of gay rights? This thread didn't start as me or Mitchy beginning a discussion about how being an effeminate or stereotypical gay guy is bad, however it did turn into plenty of people essentially saying we're guilty of any number of social crimes by association.
    "Straight Acting" is exactly about how being effeminate is bad. There is simply no other reason to describe oneself thus.

    Any person upon meeting you will see you. What your mannerisms are, whether you "fit" a stereotype or not. "SA" is not about rights or meta whatever, it's a label a guy puts on himself, a self stereotype that has to do with how he feels bout HIMSELF.

    I could care less about wanting to Help people becoming more accepting - if they ask, I'll do what I can, but other than that, people move at their own speed. This does not negate the fact that there ARE commonalities of experience and issues that recur. He did not invent SA. It's not "just his way."

    If he's going to use that term he's going to have to deal with all the baggage it carries. What he's asking us to do is NOT to see him as an individual, but as the stereotype he finds more acceptable than that other one.
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Firstly, why have you started your post with 'mary please'. You do know that i'm a guy right? You are doing the very thing that homphobes do. You are making me out to be a woman. Maybe in your mindset, you're just trying to be funny, but its not much of a joke.

    Secondly, i am being defensive yes, too right i am. This post has attacked a percentage of gay guys, albeit a small percentage, but to which i include myself. The OP made me angry. I won't remain silent whilst people try to impose their own explanations of who and what i am. You did this in your post to, claiming that i'm like you used to be. Its rubbish. I don't see myself as being 'not one of them' or being god's gift to men by virtue of my absence of effeminacy.

    Lastly, in response to this:

    You say that we don't want to be associated with the stereotype, rather than it not being representative, as if the two things are completely unconnected. The whole point is that the two are very connected. I don't like the gay stereotype because it doesn't represent how i feel about myself and what i go for. Its nothing to do with a looking down on the stereotype itself.
    Firstly, because it amused me to do so, I like irony.

    Second see above.
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  35. #85
    Lil' Demon Beggar MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Are "trying not to appear gay" and "not intentionally trying to seem gay", to you, the same thing?

    Honest question.
    Yes.

    The funniest part about it is that it doesn't even matter in the long run because there will be people who perceive you a certain way once they know you're homosexual anyway. I personally don't hesitate or question the things I do, say or like because it might seem "gay" to do, say or like.

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    JUB Addict Taz's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    In this thread: people think that their experience applies to everyone else.

    Get over yourselves, who put you in charge of gay?
    You show courage the brave dream of

    Gallop on my old warhorse

  37. #87
    mitchymo
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    "Straight Acting" is exactly about how being effeminate is bad. There is simply no other reason to describe oneself thus.

    Any person upon meeting you will see you. What your mannerisms are, whether you "fit" a stereotype or not. "SA" is not about rights or meta whatever, it's a label a guy puts on himself, a self stereotype that has to do with how he feels bout HIMSELF.
    But yet here i am having to defend myself against the likes of you who insist you know me better than i know myself.

    If i label myself as a Tottenham fan, it doesn't mean i think less of Liverpool supporters. Its no different when i use the term straight-acting. Its how i feel best describes me. It is my right to identify as i feel best reflects my identity.

    Its not my problem that others can't accept difference.
    Last edited by mitchymo; September 25th, 2013 at 01:15 PM.

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    Lil' Demon Beggar MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Put that quote on a plaque.

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    But yet here i am having to defend myself against the likes of you who insist you know me better than i know myself.

    If i label myself as a Tottenham fan, it doesn't mean i think less of Liverpool supporters. Its no different when i use the term straight-acting. Its how i feel best describes me. It is my right to identify as i feel best reflects my identity.

    Its not my problem that others can't accept difference.
    You don't HAVE to explain or defend yourself to anyone. You are CHOOSING to do so. "Others" are going to make their judgments whether you accept it or not.

    There it is. Such is life and other insipid banalities.

    So long as that term is used, there will be arguments like this one. You are not entitled to be exempt just 'cause.

    You will listen to what I say, or you won't, no skin off my back. It's not MY problem that you don't like the baggage that comes with it.

    And where do all of these protestations get us. Precisely the same place we've gotten arguing this in other places on this board.
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    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    "Straight Acting" is exactly about how being effeminate is bad. There is simply no other reason to describe oneself thus.
    When I describe myself as bookish am I insulting sports fans?

    If you call yourself queeny acting are you insulting masculinity?

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    Yes.

    The funniest part about it is that it doesn't even matter in the long run because there will be people who perceive you a certain way once they know you're homosexual anyway. I personally don't hesitate or question the things I do, say or like because it might seem "gay" to do, say or like.
    That is in my opinion an error and a disservice on your part to equate them. Essentially you are saying that a gay man who is not making an intentional effort to fit a stereotype is just faking his lack of stereotypical traits.

    If that's your position, fine, but then don't complain when the mainstream stereotypes you, because you have equated the stereotype as being integral to being gay at all.

  41. #91
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    For me "straight acting" means having sex with someone of the opposite sex and "gay acting" would imply same sex activity. Because, any other aspect of life can be equally applied to both gay and straight people. Otherwise, when used by a gay person the implication is that "straight acting" is somehow more of a man (or woman). Ironically I've found that many of the men I know who describe themselves as "straight acting" are actually projecting an image that is the exact opposite of what they think they are projecting.

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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    When I describe myself as bookish am I insulting sports fans?

    If you call yourself queeny acting are you insulting masculinity?
    I don't know is there a history of repression and self loathing, and suicide amongst the bookish because they aren't sports fans and desperately want to be?

    False equivalency.

    The second is more interesting, find me an example of someone who self labels as such and we'll see.
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  43. #93
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    "Straight Acting" is exactly about how being effeminate is bad. There is simply no other reason to describe oneself thus.
    I definitely think this is the case. I am probably in a "unique" position as I interacted with gay men every day...one on one and in large groups...for 20 years...and I love to talk to people (which is why I was a bartender in a gay bar)...and though I know there are exceptions to everything...lots of them...I found it more often the case than not when a self identifying "straight acting" gay would soon after or eventually rant about feminine guys... resenting them ....pissed off they were in the same "group" as them.

    I walked out of the only GSU meeting in college I ever attended after I got into a fight with the guy running it...he later went on to be a major spokesman for the GLBT community actually...and it was over the fact that he was suggesting we represent ourselves in the gay parade as "just like them" ...

    I do not want equality and/or visibility for people "just like me" ...I want it for everyone...period...especially people I don't like or approve of or else it means nothing....I even want equality and visibility for the "straight acting" guy running that meeting (who shall remain nameless)

  44. #94
    Lil' Demon Beggar MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    That is in my opinion an error and a disservice on your part to equate them. Essentially you are saying that a gay man who is not making an intentional effort to fit a stereotype is just faking his lack of stereotypical traits.
    Uh, no I am not at all? You are interpreting it this way and it is interpreting it wrong.

    Whether you fit certain stereotypes or not isn't what I am talking about. And I personally don't care if you do, but going out of your way to avoid stereotypes, acting, or behaving in a certain way because they seem gay is the issue I am speaking of. You seem to have a hard time comprehending this.

    If that's your position, fine, but then don't complain when the mainstream stereotypes you, because you have equated the stereotype as being integral to being gay at all.
    It is my position and I wasn't complaining, I answered the thread about my thoughts on straight acting and furthered the discussion with people who quoted me. And I could give a fuck about how the "mainstream" stereotypes me because if they're so lazy to do so they're not worth my time anyway.

    And never have I once said that the gay stereotypes there are, are integral to being gay. That has all been you implying that.
    Last edited by MakeDigitalLove; September 25th, 2013 at 01:39 PM.

  45. #95
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    Uh, no I am not at all? You are interpreting it this way and it is interpreting it wrong.
    Then perhaps a question was skipped. To the question "Are 'trying not to appear gay' and 'not intentionally trying to seem gay', to you, the same thing?" you answered yes. So let me ask this question:

    "Are (intentionally or not) trying not to appear gay" and "not appearing gay, without any 'trying' on his part", to you, the same thing?

    Lex

  46. #96
    JUB Addict bort138's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    How about instead of "straight acting" we use "undercover gay" or "covert gay."
    Last edited by bort138; September 25th, 2013 at 01:55 PM.

  47. #97
    mitchymo
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    You don't HAVE to explain or defend yourself to anyone. You are CHOOSING to do so. "Others" are going to make their judgments whether you accept it or not.

    There it is. Such is life and other insipid banalities.

    So long as that term is used, there will be arguments like this one. You are not entitled to be exempt just 'cause.

    You will listen to what I say, or you won't, no skin off my back. It's not MY problem that you don't like the baggage that comes with it.

    And where do all of these protestations get us. Precisely the same place we've gotten arguing this in other places on this board.
    But you are essentially saying that there is no point in giving my point of view, on account that nobody will listen anyway, and that they think they know better too.

    I don't have any problem with people disagreeing with my views, my problem is the intent to belittle me based on those views.

  48. #98
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by bort138 View Post
    How about instead of "straight acting" we use "undercover gay" or "covert gay."
    I'm all in favor of saying I'm just me as you find me and being gay is a wonderful part of that.

    No need say anything else.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; September 25th, 2013 at 01:53 PM.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  49. #99
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    But you are essentially saying that there is no point in giving my point of view, on account that nobody will listen anyway, and that they think they know better too.

    I don't have any problem with people disagreeing with my views, my problem is the intent to belittle me based on those views.
    No, I'm saying that going off into "I HAVE TO," or any version of "it's not fair," is pointless.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  50. #100
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I don't know is there a history of repression and self loathing, and suicide amongst the bookish because they aren't sports fans and desperately want to be?

    False equivalency.

    The second is more interesting, find me an example of someone who self labels as such and we'll see.
    There's a history of suicide connected with coming to terms with being gay.

    I don't see you saying that calling myself gay is harming other people, though.

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