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Thread: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

      
   
  1. #101
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I think you need to read a little more about the history of being politically correct.
    The Kennedies supported the group home model of care for people in need of persistent daily supervision such as the mentally retarded whose families did not have the ability to care for them themselves. The move towards group homes continues today (I have a friend who has worked in several as a caregiver) but the problem is there are substantial wait lists to get into one and as usual, the budgeting for them is a problem. It was never a Kennedy plan to abruptly defund wards containing schizophrenics or people with mental handicaps overnight and pour them out into the street, as happened in California under Reagan. It was intended to be a transition from a model which had proven not just costly but often abusive and neglectful (large, over-populated institutions where inmates had all their teeth removed and laid around sedated all day, were beaten or raped by orderlies, etc. These things were common in the mass institution/nut farm days.)

    Rushing to the simplest bottom line when trying to start a blame game often skips past a bigger picture, and that bigger picture rarely looks good for Republicans Jack.

  2. #102

    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    This tragedy is more about how the treatment of mental illness is failing and not about the guns.

    Navy Yard, Sandy Hook, Aurora-Colorado, Tucson-Arizona -- all the men were under the care of mental health professionals at the time of their murder sprees.
    Lack of mental healthcare provision does not appear to explain the cancer of gun violence, according to this recent study:

    High rates of mental illness in any country, on the other hand, did not predict more gun deaths.

    "Although correlation is not the same as causation, it seems conceivable that abundant gun availability facilitates firearm-related deaths. Conversely, high crime rates may instigate widespread anxiety and fear, thereby motivating people to arm themselves and give rise to increased gun ownership, which, in turn, increases availability. The resulting vicious cycle could, bit by bit, lead to the polarized status that is now the case with the US," the doctors write.

    "Regardless of exact cause and effect, the current study debunks the widely quoted hypothesis that countries with higher gun ownership are safer than those with low gun ownership."
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-deaths-study

    http://www.amjmed.com/

  3. #103
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I think you need to read a little more about the history of being politically correct.

    Conventional wisdom suggests that the reduction of funding for social welfare policies during the 1980s is the result of a conservative backlash against the welfare state. With such a backlash, it should be expected that changes in the policies toward involuntary commitment of the mentally ill reflect a generally conservative approach to social policy more generally. In this case, however, the complex of social forces that lead to less restrictive guidelines for involuntary commitment are not the result of conservative politics per se, but rather a coalition of fiscal conservatives, law and order Republicans, relatives of mentally ill patients, and the practitioners working with those patients. Combined with a sharp rise in homelessness during the 1980s, Ronald Reagan pursued a policy toward the treatment of mental illness that satisfied special interest groups and the demands of the business community, but failed to address the issue: the treatment of mental illness.
    http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html

    Yeah not so much.
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    Lack of mental healthcare provision does not appear to explain the cancer of gun violence, according to this recent study:



    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-deaths-study

    http://www.amjmed.com/

    In the end the people who irrationally want to reduce gun regulations after every preventable tragedy, will end up blaming unicorns and moonbeams before they will admit there is a gun problem in this country that has to do with SHOCK guns.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Have you not been reading ANYTHING Buzzer and I have said in this topic?
    ???

    I was responding to what you'd said.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Just like buzzer said. Willing to stomp on every right to keep the ONE that you're obsessed with.
    No rights get stomped on by what I recommend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Let me repeat it, cause you clearly haven't gotten the memo: THERE. IS. NO. MILITIA. THERE. HASN'T. BEEN. ONE. FOR. CENTURIES.
    Not according to the law, or the courts. Cling to your fantasy if you will, but it doesn't change things.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Not according to the law, or the courts. Cling to your fantasy if you will, but it doesn't change things.
    According to the law and the courts it's also legal to regulate firearms.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You are correct that the framers intended a responsibility in the citizenry of watchfulness and that this was expressed in part through the statement that IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN A WELL TRAINED MILITIA the right to bear firearms would not be infringed.

    Which is why I am a bit puzzled that you rather routinely insist that the right for every Tom Dick and Harry to have massive firepower is an entitlement that should continue to remain an entitlement regardless of whether or not any militia exists or any form of responsible training or qualification is required, as would logically follow from an express statement that the right to bear firearms is directly tied to the maintenance of a citizen militia.

    I have no problem with a State Reservist or National Guardsman with the proper training having a firearm. I have a problem with the fact that any slovenly off-meds person who posts hate about black people on facebook or is really pissed off about his layoff can walk into stores and get guns and high capacity ammo clips.
    I expound what the grammar and words mean, which is what those who fought for ratification explained the amendment meant.

    The militia clause gives a reason, not the only reason. It's like this statement: Because it was hot outside, I had iced tea with lemon. in that case it's very clear that "because it was hot outside" is not the only reason for having iced tea with lemon -- other motivations such as thirst, preference for tea, liking lemon, and such are plainly present. That's obviously the case with the Second Amendment, given both other proposed drafts and the discussion involved. They considered the reason of self-defense obvious enough not to mention, along with usefulness for hunting and for protection of property against animals.

    Additionally, the law still contains the same definition of militia that the amendment uses: we are all the militia.

    As for your "problem", I have the same one -- I just maintain it has to be dealt with using the authority the Constitution grants Congress, not by trampling the Constitution. The only authority Congress has here is to either ditch the Amendment (not gonna happen) or apply Article 1 Section 8. Why Democrats aren't rallying around the latter baffles me -- it's the obvious approach, given their oaths of office, and besides it would put Republicans in a very uncomfortable position of having to justify not wanting a well-regulated militia (i.e. one trained and effective and responsible).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #109
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    The Supreme Court found in District of Columbia v. Heller that an individual right to keep and bear arms is not limited by the announced purpose (for a well regulated militia) that is enumerated in the Second Amendment. [Link]
    For simple reasons:

    In the majority opinion authored by Justice Antonin Scalia, the Court first conducted a textual analysis of the operative clause, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The Court found that this language guarantees an individual right to possess and carry weapons. The Court examined historical evidence that it found consistent with its textual analysis. The Court then considered the Second Amendmentís prefatory clause, "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," and determined that while this clause announces a purpose for recognizing an individual right to keep and bear arms, it does not limit the operative clause. The Court found that analogous contemporaneous provisions in state constitutions, the Second Amendmentís drafting history, and post-ratification interpretations were consistent with its interpretation of the amendment.
    All they had to do was read what the people who fought for that amendment wrote. They went beyond that -- and I presume that they took note of the numerous times the Court had previously listed the Second as covering an individual right along with most of the Bill of Rights.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #110
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    According to the law and the courts it's also legal to regulate firearms.
    And in context with Miller, that means that states have the authority to make sure that all firearms in possession have a military purpose.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #111
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    For simple reasons:



    All they had to do was read what the people who fought for that amendment wrote. They went beyond that -- and I presume that they took note of the numerous times the Court had previously listed the Second as covering an individual right along with most of the Bill of Rights.
    Since we could agree that no well regulated militia would want mentally unstable people in it, we can agree that it follows that psych evals for private gun ownership do not conflict with the 2nd Amendment.

    But I will hold my breath on that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Not according to the law, or the courts. Cling to your fantasy if you will, but it doesn't change things.
    Calling a dog a horse doesn't make it a horse. Just because an obsolete law calls you militia doesn't make you one.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  13. #113
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Calling a dog a horse doesn't make it a horse. Just because an obsolete law calls you militia doesn't make you one.
    Well and there's another thing too, and it's the reason why, I believe, Kul did not respond to the point raised to him about the framers of the Constitution enshrining into law human bondage. It makes you grapple with two truths that I think are uncomfortable for purists like Kulindahr:

    1) The founding fathers were not right on everything, they were not infallible, and they did not give us a perfect or completely just system worthy of defending verbatim without change according to original intent in the 18th century for all the rest of time.

    2) That not everything as originally intended in the 18th century framing was, or is, appropriate to apply to modern times or modern sensibilities or to our sense of inclusive democracy or social justice as it IMPROVED over time from the one they had at the time of the founding of this country-- including, but not limited to, the issue of slavery.

    Kul would set the goalposts so that no change could ever contradict the intended meaning of the framers at the time the Constitution was written. Unfortunately, under that same ruleset, women would not be voting today, nor would non-landowners, and blacks would be human property.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Well and there's another thing too, and it's the reason why, I believe, Kul did not respond to the point raised to him about the framers of the Constitution enshrining into law human bondage. It makes you grapple with two truths that I think are uncomfortable for purists like Kulindahr:

    1) The founding fathers were not right on everything, they were not infallible, and they did not give us a perfect or completely just system worthy of defending verbatim without change according to original intent in the 18th century for all the rest of time.

    2) That not everything as originally intended in the 18th century framing was, or is, appropriate to apply to modern times or modern sensibilities or to our sense of inclusive democracy or social justice as it IMPROVED over time from the one they had at the time of the founding of this country-- including, but not limited to, the issue of slavery.

    Kul would set the goalposts so that no change could ever contradict the intended meaning of the framers at the time the Constitution was written. Unfortunately, under that same ruleset, women would not be voting today, nor would non-landowners, and blacks would be human property.
    That bears repeating. It is the EXACT same situation as "well, Christianity has evolved in its understanding of the Bible when it comes to slavery and owning your wife but gays are gross and we hate them BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!" (Yes, I know that's not exact, I'm making a point.)
    Last edited by Rolyo85; September 20th, 2013 at 12:02 PM.
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    As usual, the US is already moving on from this shooting and is blaming anything other than guns. By next week, because these were all 'civilians' the debate will be strangled again as everyone blames video games and the unsolvable mental health care system for this latest tragedy. Hell, some of that has chewed up most of this thread and I suspect that we won't even see page four and if we do, it will be the same sterile debate about the 2nd Amendment versus the preservation of a civil society.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    As usual, the US is already moving on from this shooting and is blaming anything other than guns. By next week, because these were all 'civilians' the debate will be strangled again as everyone blames video games and the unsolvable mental health care system for this latest tragedy. Hell, some of that has chewed up most of this thread and I suspect that we won't even see page four and if we do, it will be the same sterile debate about the 2nd Amendment versus the preservation of a civil society.
    It is an irony for sure that the 2nd Amendment fanatics who rest their argument on a watchful and responsible citizenry are safe in the status quo they wish to keep only because of an attention-deprived, apathetic citizenry.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    As usual, the US is already moving on from this shooting and is blaming anything other than guns. By next week, because these were all 'civilians' the debate will be strangled again as everyone blames video games and the unsolvable mental health care system for this latest tragedy. Hell, some of that has chewed up most of this thread and I suspect that we won't even see page four and if we do, it will be the same sterile debate about the 2nd Amendment versus the preservation of a civil society.
    Could it be we've got newer mass shootings?

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    ^ This is so depressing.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Since we could agree that no well regulated militia would want mentally unstable people in it, we can agree that it follows that psych evals for private gun ownership do not conflict with the 2nd Amendment.

    But I will hold my breath on that one.
    If the evals were paid for by the government, that's an arguable case. But "conservatives" won't want to pay the cost to have the militia thus evaluated, even though it would help -- to use the Amendment's language -- the security of a free state.

    I'd have such evals as part of a standard program beginning about age twelve -- along with training on how to treat firearms safely (for twelve year olds that's easy: unless under the direct supervision of a responsible adult, leave them alone).

    And in the meantime, any time a public institution like a college notes that someone is too dangerous to have on campus, that data should be in the NICS!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Calling a dog a horse doesn't make it a horse. Just because an obsolete law calls you militia doesn't make you one.
    Actually it does. Being a member of the militia is what makes a person eligible to be called up for the military. If screening were done as a normal part of life, it would save lots of trouble if Congress ever decides we nee a draft again -- the services could look at the evals and training scores, and know who not to bother calling.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Well and there's another thing too, and it's the reason why, I believe, Kul did not respond to the point raised to him about the framers of the Constitution enshrining into law human bondage. It makes you grapple with two truths that I think are uncomfortable for purists like Kulindahr:

    1) The founding fathers were not right on everything, they were not infallible, and they did not give us a perfect or completely just system worthy of defending verbatim without change according to original intent in the 18th century for all the rest of time.

    2) That not everything as originally intended in the 18th century framing was, or is, appropriate to apply to modern times or modern sensibilities or to our sense of inclusive democracy or social justice as it IMPROVED over time from the one they had at the time of the founding of this country-- including, but not limited to, the issue of slavery.

    Kul would set the goalposts so that no change could ever contradict the intended meaning of the framers at the time the Constitution was written. Unfortunately, under that same ruleset, women would not be voting today, nor would non-landowners, and blacks would be human property.
    You're either purposely lying, a la Glen Beck, or again not paying attention to my posts. Either way, this isn't worth responding to.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #122
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If the evals were paid for by the government, that's an arguable case. But "conservatives" won't want to pay the cost to have the militia thus evaluated, even though it would help -- to use the Amendment's language -- the security of a free state.

    I'd have such evals as part of a standard program beginning about age twelve -- along with training on how to treat firearms safely (for twelve year olds that's easy: unless under the direct supervision of a responsible adult, leave them alone).

    And in the meantime, any time a public institution like a college notes that someone is too dangerous to have on campus, that data should be in the NICS!
    It seems, then, Kulindahr, that the only area where we disagree is that, in an assumption of nothing changing with regard to qualifications, standards and proper training required for private gun owners under the "militia" aspect of the 2nd Amendment, it appears to me to be your position that the status quo should simply remain regardless of whether any qualifications are ever established. It's mine that the cost to society is too high and the benefit to society (security of a free state, the ability of individual citizens to stop crime with their firearms) is too sporadic and mythical to be taken seriously as a tradeoff for the cost.

    Or in other words, it appears to me that you think what we both agree should happen is strictly optional, whereas I think it should be a condition for widespread private access to firearms, in light of what guns are doing in our society.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're either purposely lying, a la Glen Beck, or again not paying attention to my posts. Either way, this isn't worth responding to.
    Do I need to start a drinking game where I take a shot everytime a post you do not wish to reply to, you simply respond with "you didn't read my posts?"

    My points are pretty relevant, and at this point I just think you don't want to address them. You dodged a similar challenge to your assertion that it was never the framer's intent that anything other than exactly what they meant should be changed in law when we brought up the 13th Amendment.

    The Constitution is a framework, letting it be a prison would have us 300 years behind on a multitude of issues.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    As usual, the US is already moving on from this shooting and is blaming anything other than guns. By next week, because these were all 'civilians' the debate will be strangled again as everyone blames video games and the unsolvable mental health care system for this latest tragedy. Hell, some of that has chewed up most of this thread and I suspect that we won't even see page four and if we do, it will be the same sterile debate about the 2nd Amendment versus the preservation of a civil society.
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It is an irony for sure that the 2nd Amendment fanatics who rest their argument on a watchful and responsible citizenry are safe in the status quo they wish to keep only because of an attention-deprived, apathetic citizenry.
    The problem is that politicians have trained the electorate to have such a short attention span that once blame gets argued over, everyone loses interest in actually solving anything.

    BTW, what's "unsolvable" about the mental health care system? It's only beyond solution if apathy prevails.

    At any rate, the discussion needs to move from the Second Amendment, where the individual right is, as Justice Sotomayor put it, "settled law", and over to Article 1, section 8: Congress has the authority to discipline the militia. The militia is plainly not disciplined, so let Congress get off their asses and do their jobs!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It seems, then, Kulindahr, that the only area where we disagree is that, in an assumption of nothing changing with regard to qualifications, standards and proper training required for private gun owners under the "militia" aspect of the 2nd Amendment, it appears to me to be your position that the status quo should simply remain regardless of whether any qualifications are ever established. It's mine that the cost to society is too high and the benefit to society (security of a free state, the ability of individual citizens to stop crime with their firearms) is too sporadic and mythical to be taken seriously as a tradeoff for the cost.

    Or in other words, it appears to me that you think what we both agree should happen is strictly optional, whereas I think it should be a condition for widespread private access to firearms, in light of what guns are doing in our society.
    It's my position that you don't trample the Constitution for your "solution", even if it means no solution is immediately forthcoming.

    Beyond that... Time to start a thread.....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    The problem with a mental health solution is that it would be toothless and blind. The NRA will never allow doctors to remove gun rights and without a tracking system you can never be sure someone does not have weapons PRIOR to a diagnosis.

    I agree that the mental health system is SHIT and whack jobs are the main reason we have so many issues. However without tracking system and mental health system ability to remove access to weapons, coupled with required security locks for all gun owners.... then any effort fails at the word go.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The problem with a mental health solution is that it would be toothless and blind. The NRA will never allow doctors to remove gun rights and without a tracking system you can never be sure someone does not have weapons PRIOR to a diagnosis.

    I agree that the mental health system is SHIT and whack jobs are the main reason we have so many issues. However without tracking system and mental health system ability to remove access to weapons, coupled with required security locks for all gun owners.... then any effort fails at the word go.
    Presenting the mental healthcare system as the primary solution also somehow assumes everyone capable of snapping, or going to snap, can be reliably identified or identified at all.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Do I need to start a drinking game where I take a shot everytime a post you do not wish to reply to, you simply respond with "you didn't read my posts?"

    My points are pretty relevant, and at this point I just think you don't want to address them. You dodged a similar challenge to your assertion that it was never the framer's intent that anything other than exactly what they meant should be changed in law when we brought up the 13th Amendment.

    The Constitution is a framework, letting it be a prison would have us 300 years behind on a multitude of issues.
    You're changing the foundation of your argument in the middle of this post, which makes it fallacious.

    And your points were based on falsehoods about my position. You seem to be like a certain "conservative" on this board, unable to separate your imagined position of "the opposition" from what people here say.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    True, however most high profile cases have significant signs of mental issues prior to their acts.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're changing the foundation of your argument in the middle of this post, which makes it fallacious.

    And your points were based on falsehoods about my position. You seem to be like a certain "conservative" on this board, unable to separate your imagined position of "the opposition" from what people here say.
    I think you're playing games to get out of the fact that you have essentially asserted that any attempt to get away from the original intent of the framers at the time of the writing of the Constitution is somehow inherently corrupting law and trampling on the Constitution, when the framers clearly intended many things we have changed, including suffrage and human bondage.

    You don't get to say one amendment should be read as a fundamentalist would interpret a bible verse and others are malleable or okay to amend and update over time. So which is it?

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The problem with a mental health solution is that it would be toothless and blind. The NRA will never allow doctors to remove gun rights and without a tracking system you can never be sure someone does not have weapons PRIOR to a diagnosis.

    I agree that the mental health system is SHIT and whack jobs are the main reason we have so many issues. However without tracking system and mental health system ability to remove access to weapons, coupled with required security locks for all gun owners.... then any effort fails at the word go.
    Tracking isn't needed, besides being impossible.

    For the rest, yes -- for a well-regulated militia, meaning what G. Washington did by the term, communities have to be able to remove access to weapons, and there have to be strict storage rules (written by people who understand firearms, BTW; I don't have secure storage for my firearms right now, so except for the one under my personal control, I've removed critical parts from each one so they're nothing but paperweights or door props -- and that's a quite legitimate method [in fact it would tickle me if a bad guy broke in to see him grab one of my disabled ones and try to threaten me with it]).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Presenting the mental healthcare system as the primary solution also somehow assumes everyone capable of snapping, or going to snap, can be reliably identified or identified at all.
    That's far, far less true than the assumption on the other side that telling a criminal it's against the law for him to have a firearm will keep him from getting and using one. Most criminals who want to use a gun just laugh at gun laws as they apply to themselves (while cheering for ones that supply more victims), so no such law is going to have any significant effect. But a law requiring, for purposes of the militia, for every adult to have government-paid evaluations, will catch a very large portion of people who are a threat -- as we know, a proper system would have prevented several of the shootings in the last couple of years, since the shooters were already known to be psychologically incompetent for having weapons.

    And that's all we can do -- take measures that will actually address significant chunks of the problem. If a rigorous mental health system would eliminate even a third of such shootings, it's worth the investment.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think you're playing games to get out of the fact that you have essentially asserted that any attempt to get away from the original intent of the framers at the time of the writing of the Constitution is somehow inherently corrupting law and trampling on the Constitution, when the framers clearly intended many things we have changed, including suffrage and human bondage.

    You don't get to say one amendment should be read as a fundamentalist would interpret a bible verse and others are malleable or okay to amend and update over time. So which is it?
    You're making the same fallacious error. You're also once again stating my position falsely.

    I'll say this much again: NOTHING in the Constitution is "malleable" -- that's the anti-liberty position from liberals who want it to "evolve", so they can change the meaning without changing the law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's far, far less true than the assumption on the other side that telling a criminal it's against the law for him to have a firearm will keep him from getting and using one. Most criminals who want to use a gun just laugh at gun laws as they apply to themselves (while cheering for ones that supply more victims), so no such law is going to have any significant effect. But a law requiring, for purposes of the militia, for every adult to have government-paid evaluations, will catch a very large portion of people who are a threat -- as we know, a proper system would have prevented several of the shootings in the last couple of years, since the shooters were already known to be psychologically incompetent for having weapons.

    And that's all we can do -- take measures that will actually address significant chunks of the problem. If a rigorous mental health system would eliminate even a third of such shootings, it's worth the investment.
    I don't understand how you can propose a system that in your first paragraph you eliminate as having any potential for working.

    After all, if criminals want guns they'll just get them illegally and not undergo any of the checks, training and evaluations, according to you.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're making the same fallacious error. You're also once again stating my position falsely.

    I'll say this much again: NOTHING in the Constitution is "malleable" -- that's the anti-liberty position from liberals who want it to "evolve", so they can change the meaning without changing the law.
    It was your position as at least myself and a few others here understood it, and since you refused to respond, you don't get to simply sit back and say it's our fault we don't get your position correctly.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    NRA's LaPierre blames poor security for Navy Yard shooting

    Ya know LaPierre needs to get a panel of five year old's to proof his comments for common sense and believably before he goes on camera. From what I can tell the Navy Yard's security was as good as most military bases and if that's 'wide open' then nothing short of what you go through for the airport is good enough.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    NRA's LaPierre blames poor security for Navy Yard shooting

    Ya know LaPierre needs to get a panel of five year old's to proof his comments for common sense and believably before he goes on camera. From what I can tell the Navy Yard's security was as good as most military bases and if that's 'wide open' then nothing short of what you go through for the airport is good enough.
    The only fix we'll ever hear from the fanatical gun camp is "there should have been more people there with more guns." Whether it's a classroom or a military base that gets shot up.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    La Pierre is not fanatical, he's greedy and pushes that very option because the gun industry is giving him head.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    La Pierre is not fanatical, he's greedy and pushes that very option because the gun industry is giving him head.
    I probably do a poor job of distinguishing between people fanatic from personal financial interest and people who are fanatic from delusions they can fight the U.S. military one day with their handgun because they're so intertwined and say the same things that make no sense.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Simple if they are head of something that pays big money, venal and greedy - if they are on a blog saying "libtard" idiot fanatic.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Simple if they are head of something that pays big money, venal and greedy - if they are on a blog saying "libtard" idiot fanatic.
    Republitard rolls off the tongue much better than libtard.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    GO one step further "RepuliTURD!"

    ..if we are going to be puerile, let's do it right...
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    I probably do a poor job of distinguishing between people fanatic from personal financial interest and people who are fanatic from delusions they can fight the U.S. military one day with their handgun because they're so intertwined and say the same things that make no sense.
    It's easy - if they're rich, it's financial interest.
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  44. #144

    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Look like this thread has turned into another baiting thread.
    "Thatís the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.Ē Barack Obama, 2-10-14

  45. #145

    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Look like this thread has turned into another baiting thread.
    Where's that broken record picture you posted?

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'll say this much again: NOTHING in the Constitution is "malleable"
    Why don't you try yelling "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater and test that theory out

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    NRA's LaPierre blames poor security for Navy Yard shooting

    Ya know LaPierre needs to get a panel of five year old's to proof his comments for common sense and believably before he goes on camera. From what I can tell the Navy Yard's security was as good as most military bases and if that's 'wide open' then nothing short of what you go through for the airport is good enough.
    I caught a part of something he said yesterday. He said there should not be the memorial they held yesterday. That was all I caught and know nothing more about it. But that's enough.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvFindsAndyHardy View Post
    Why don't you try yelling "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater and test that theory out
    And what would that prove? Nothing has changed about irresponsible use of speech and its consequences since the Constitution was written.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    You didn't really get the point he was making, did you?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    And what would that prove? Nothing has changed about irresponsible use of speech and its consequences since the Constitution was written.
    It's a CLARIFICATION of and a limitation on what can be construed, by the wording of the Constitution, as an absolute right.

    I was responding to Kuli's contention that there is nothing MALLEABLE in the Constitiution and wanted to point out that there was quite a long period of time between the authoring of the Bill of Rights and the 1919 SCOTUS decision to limit free speech in certain cases presenting a "clear and present danger":

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

    If that's not malleable I don't know what is

    Everyone agrees that the free speech we were promised stops at libel and reckless endangerment yet GUNS get a free pass with no limitations or controls whatsoever?

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