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Thread: Black NRA

      
   
  1. #51
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    Re: Black NRA

    Yeah, I am reading this whole thing, and it more and more seems like a closed loop. At what point will we accept that IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER what the FFs thought and why they wrote what they wrote? America has a gun problem. Only willfully blind fanatics refuse to accept that, and hard data is against them, as is common sense. America has a gun problem. This problem needs to be resolved, and it REALLY doesn't matter why the Second was written, what it means exactly, and how Kulindahr decides to interpret it. What matters is should the current status quo of gun (non)regulation remain as it is, or should it change.

    The answer, to me, is obvious.

    All this talk about the militia and how it has to be regulated, is nearly as laughable as Jack's "oh, gee, it's totally about fixing mental health care". What militia, ffs?! Over 300 MILLION people in this country, and someone is actually going to invest billions into gun-educating and training all of them into some "militia" regulations? For what purpose? A big privilege of the privileged billion, and ESPECIALLY of citizens of the country with the world's largest military is that they DON'T have to be worried about participating in warfare.

    Ask people whether they are willing to be professionally trained to be militia-ready, and when they overwhelmingly laugh you out of the room, come and tell me again exactly what the FFs meant when they wrote the Second.

    This whole argument is steeped in hypocrisy, and is really beginning to be more obnoxious than entertaining.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  2. #52

    Re: Black NRA

    I don't get why this is a satire thread.

    There really is an educated, young Black man who is a member of the NRA (he's a contributor to NRA's website). He's an attorney & he is a gun rights activist. He calls himself the "urban gun enthusiast."

    His name is Colion Noir. Here is his blog & a video:

    http://www.mrcolionnoir.com/

    I used to be like that, but not anymore. At least not on the first date. Third date, whole other story..."

  3. #53
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    Re: Black NRA

    JAYQUEER! long time no argue.

    I admit, I'm having trouble getting past his name. Why don't you sum up for us.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    I don't get why this is a satire thread.

    There really is an educated, young Black man who is a member of the NRA (he's a contributor to NRA's website). He's an attorney & he is a gun rights activist. He calls himself the "urban gun enthusiast."

    His name is Colion Noir. Here is his blog & a video:
    Somehow Tx and others seem to think that because some white supremacists are second amendment supporters that means that second amendment supporters must be white supremacists. A glaring and classical logic fallicy.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  5. #55
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    Re: Black NRA

    Got it completely wrong - people who LOUDLY PROCLAIM they "support" the second amendment while pretending that they've read it - are OVERWHELMINGLY suspect of being end times racist fucks.

    If you're going to cry fallacy, try actually being honest about the opposition.

    If you simply are unable to understand - I'll be happy to try and reduce it to simple terms.
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  6. #56
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: Black NRA

    You mean like the Black Panthers? The Pink Pistols? Colion Noir?

    Now you are trying to cover one fallacy by engaging in others, constructing a group out of bits and pieces of other groups you don't like and presenting this as fact? Please. You need to back up that 'overwhelmingly' statement and that means more than just proving one or two such groups exist. Since one of the basic concepts of the individual right model of the second amendment is self defense, it is only natural that end times survivalist nutters and race war nutters would be pro-second amendment but that does not lead to the conclusion that a majority of vocal second amendment supporters are part of those groups.

    But my original comment wasn't about those who support the amendment on false or mistaken pretenses, which you reached for with your 'pretending that they've read it' reference, but those who seriously understand and believe in the right expressed in the amendment. Those individuals would support every American's right (and responsibilities) to bear arms equally without regard to race.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA

    Ohhh do tell what is "false and mistaken Premises" as defined by those who "seriously understand."

    Since of course you are the alabaster model of all that's proper I will expect you to fully document everything you say with backup that it's FACT - since of course you are far far above playing fast and loose as me.

    I dare you to live up to your own standard!
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  8. #58
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Ohhh do tell what is "false and mistaken Premises" as defined by those who "seriously understand."

    Since of course you are the alabaster model of all that's proper I will expect you to fully document everything you say with backup that it's FACT - since of course you are far far above playing fast and loose as me.

    I dare you to live up to your own standard!
    (Laughs) When you find yourself called on you outlandish positions, bluff and challenge the other guy to prove his position. I notice that I've so far provided three references in my posts while you have not provided a single one. I have even pointed out how ridiculously easy it would be for you to provide anecdotal references.

    But I will humor you, I did a search of the NRA site for references to race, black, race war, end times. Didn't find anything to support your position. I did find this quote from Chris W. Cox in his article, Self Defense is a Human Right, "We will continue to defend the right of every law-abiding American — regardless of race, color and creed — to defend themselves and one another." Yep sounds like a race war fantasy to me.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  9. #59
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    Re: Black NRA

    This came to mind reading this thread.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	625450_544487075573162_511425034_n.jpg 
Views:	103 
Size:	23.9 KB 
ID:	986783

  10. #60
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    (Laughs) When you find yourself called on you outlandish positions, bluff and challenge the other guy to prove his position. I notice that I've so far provided three references in my posts while you have not provided a single one. I have even pointed out how ridiculously easy it would be for you to provide anecdotal references.

    But I will humor you, I did a search of the NRA site for references to race, black, race war, end times. Didn't find anything to support your position. I did find this quote from Chris W. Cox in his article, Self Defense is a Human Right, "We will continue to defend the right of every law-abiding American — regardless of race, color and creed — to defend themselves and one another." Yep sounds like a race war fantasy to me.
    I'm not the one pretending to be Jesus. Your evidence is lacking. I must conclude you are mistaken - and I can say that because you have yet to prove you seriously understand.

    So sad for you.

    You searched the NRA site - LOL, precious.
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  11. #61
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    Re: Black NRA

    Another bastion of second amendment race warriors:
    Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
    FIFTH: Before the Civil War and the Fourteenth Amendment, many states enacted laws that made it illegal for slaves and for free black people to possess firearms (unless they had their master’s permission or a government approval). [See list, with sources in law reviews, in Gran’pa Jack No. 4 ]
    A. The Second Amendment did not protect black people then, because(1) it was understood to limit the federal government’s power only and (2) black people were not considered citizens whose rights deserved to be protected. [Dred Scott decision, 60 U.S. 393 (1857) (Judge Taney observed that if blacks had the privileges and immunities of citizenship, then they would be able to freely possess and carry arms ... unthinkable to Southern slave owners.)][Halbrook, pp. 98, 114-15]
    B. The Second Amendment was designed by people who did not want to become slaves to their government, but they were unfortunately and tragically willing to permit private slavery in some states. Now that slavery is abolished, however, all citizens of all races should enjoy the Second Amendment’s legal protection against despotic government.
    Interestingly enough that group provides some commentary pointing out that some of the original gun control efforts were driven by racists intent on preventing the arming of black ex-slaves.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  12. #62
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I'm not the one pretending to be Jesus. Your evidence is lacking. I must conclude you are mistaken - and I can say that because you have yet to prove you seriously understand.

    So sad for you.

    You searched the NRA site - LOL, precious.
    How else am I to determine the truth of your claim that vocal second amendment supporters are overwhelmingly driven by race war fantasies? Search the Brady Handgun control site? I notice you still haven't provide a single scrap of proof to support your position. And yet you somehow expect me to understand based on, nothing?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA



    Gun control is PRO-SLAVERY!!!!!!



    Seriously, you can't make this shit up.
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  14. #64
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    How else am I to determine the truth of your claim that vocal second amendment supporters are overwhelmingly driven by race war fantasies? Search the Brady Handgun control site? I notice you still haven't provide a single scrap of proof to support your position. And yet you somehow expect me to understand based on, nothing?
    Oh sugar - if you have to ask.....

    Seriously why would I bother to try and "prove" anything to you when you post the above. That IS racist trash. You don't see it do you?

    So be it.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post


    Gun control is PRO-SLAVERY!!!!!!



    Seriously, you can't make this shit up.
    Interesting article here:

    http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/...eserve-slavery

  16. #66
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Oh sugar - if you have to ask.....

    Seriously why would I bother to try and "prove" anything to you when you post the above. That IS racist trash. You don't see it do you?

    So be it.
    Actually one of the reasons I chose that out of the search results is it was the closest I could find to what you suggest and yet even it doesn't support your position.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  17. #67
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    Re: Black NRA

    I suggest you google "race war."

    It's just a little sad watching you cherry pick shit that kinda proves my point.
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  18. #68
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post


    Gun control is PRO-SLAVERY!!!!!!



    Seriously, you can't make this shit up.
    In the Jim Crow South it was, what makes you think otherwise?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA

    I think the article I linked above probably got lost in the exchange so I'll quote a snippet from it:

    The real reason the Second Amendment was ratified, and why it says "State" instead of "Country" (the Framers knew the difference - see the 10th Amendment), was to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states, which was necessary to get Virginia's vote. Founders Patrick Henry, George Mason, and James Madison were totally clear on that . . . and we all should be too.

    In the beginning, there were the militias. In the South, they were also called the "slave patrols," and they were regulated by the states.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Damn that's still hilarious.

    Not you Buzzer!
    Last edited by TX-Beau; September 19th, 2013 at 08:55 PM.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I suggest you google "race war."

    It's just a little sad watching you cherry pick shit that kinda proves my point.
    I did, not a single site that came up on the first few pages was from (or about) a second amendment advocacy group or even mentioned the second amendment. The results were mostly mixed between left leaning articles complaining about right wing race war fantasies and right leaning articles focusing mostly on a Fox News story about a Dept of Homeland Security employee urging blacks to arm themselves and kill the gays, whites and Uncle Tom Race traitors on his web page. Also the Wikipedia page on Race War and a news article about racists upset with the selection of Miss America. If your intent is to show that racists exist, I've never said otherwise.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think the article I linked above probably got lost in the exchange so I'll quote a snippet from it:
    I did read it and it is very interesting and enlightening. Thank you.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  23. #73
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I did, not a single site that came up on the first few pages was from (or about) a second amendment advocacy group or even mentioned the second amendment. The results were mostly mixed between left leaning articles complaining about right wing race war fantasies and right leaning articles focusing mostly on a Fox News story about a Dept of Homeland Security employee urging blacks to arm themselves and kill the gays, whites and Uncle Tom Race traitors on his web page. Also the Wikipedia page on Race War and a news article about racists upset with the selection of Miss America. If your intent is to show that racists exist, I've never said otherwise.
    In order for anyone to believe you I'm afraid you are going to have to document all of your results.

    Your rules not mine.

    So sorry.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    In order for anyone to believe you I'm afraid you are going to have to document all of your results.

    Your rules not mine.

    So sorry.
    You are also going to have to prove you haven't omitted anything.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; September 19th, 2013 at 09:24 PM.
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  24. #74
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If the private ownership of firepower was linked to training, qualification and psychological evaluation you and I would not be here having this discussion. All three of those things would be in the picture already in the case of joining a military branch, or a proper militia. We don't have one. Letting people have wildly under-regulated access to highly destructive firepower without any trianing or qualification or even the most minimal assurance that the person at the register buying it isn't completely insane is not even by your own admission what was envisioned and intended with the 2nd Amendment. So why the lionshare of the gun camp and the NRA insist that that IS the correct interpretation and translate that into the loosening and fierce defense of already loose gun access laws is beyond me, other than the religious fixation with guns and cowboy ethos that has already been mentioned in other discussions in the past few days.
    The NRA has the correct interpretation of the Second Amendment, basically. Their problem is that they ignore the fact that the Second does not exist in a vacuum -- it exists in company with Article 1, Section 8. All those gun owners -- and the non-owners -- are members of the militia, and as such are subject to the discipline established by Congress.

    It is encumbent on Congress to establish it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #75
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    In order for anyone to believe you I'm afraid you are going to have to document all of your results.

    Your rules not mine.

    So sorry.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are also going to have to prove you haven't omitted anything.
    Actually those are not my rules, just your distortion of them. All I asked was that you back up your claim. Your response has been to run me down a rabbit hole while presenting nothing. I'm not presenting a position that needs to be documented or defended but simply providing a general summary of the overall findings of a search you asked me to do.

    As for my original position that folks who seriously believe in the right enumerated in the second amendment (and since there seems to be confusion I am talking about the modern post 14th amendment individual right model) would have no problems with blacks exercising that right, I've presented evidence to support that position. The NRA represents the largest most powerful pro-second amendment group which is a rather large data point and they support the right for all regardless of race. So does the admittedly 'racist' site I referenced. The ball is in your court to support yours. You may accuse me of cherry picking the data but at least I have presented some data. Hell I even approached my searches from the direction of trying to find evidence to support your position but couldn't.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If Kul were correct I also wouldn't see the point of the entire judicial branch, which beyond its scope as a balance of power also helps interpret law as unforeseen circumstances arise around its execution, or challenges to the validity or constitutionality of the law. That entire process inherently, and has always, evolved the way laws are implemented and upheld.
    You two are playing games with the meaning of "evolve". It was originally used here to indicate that the meaning of the law can be changed merely by saying it has changed, regardless of what the words actually mean. With that, amendments aren't necessary, since the law really doesn't mean anything anyway -- its meaning is whatever those in power decide to give it.

    So the judicial branch doesn't evolve the law -- the Constitution -- at all. What they do is refine it, tune the balance, determine how the meaning that is there applies to new situations. Their job is dependent upon the meaning being nothing more nor less than what the Framers intended.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, I am reading this whole thing, and it more and more seems like a closed loop. At what point will we accept that IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER what the FFs thought and why they wrote what they wrote? America has a gun problem. Only willfully blind fanatics refuse to accept that, and hard data is against them, as is common sense. America has a gun problem. This problem needs to be resolved, and it REALLY doesn't matter why the Second was written, what it means exactly, and how Kulindahr decides to interpret it. What matters is should the current status quo of gun (non)regulation remain as it is, or should it change.

    The answer, to me, is obvious.

    All this talk about the militia and how it has to be regulated, is nearly as laughable as Jack's "oh, gee, it's totally about fixing mental health care". What militia, ffs?! Over 300 MILLION people in this country, and someone is actually going to invest billions into gun-educating and training all of them into some "militia" regulations? For what purpose? A big privilege of the privileged billion, and ESPECIALLY of citizens of the country with the world's largest military is that they DON'T have to be worried about participating in warfare.

    Ask people whether they are willing to be professionally trained to be militia-ready, and when they overwhelmingly laugh you out of the room, come and tell me again exactly what the FFs meant when they wrote the Second.

    This whole argument is steeped in hypocrisy, and is really beginning to be more obnoxious than entertaining.
    So you vote that the law can be tossed out because it is too difficult to follow.

    That's anarchy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You two are playing games with the meaning of "evolve". It was originally used here to indicate that the meaning of the law can be changed merely by saying it has changed, regardless of what the words actually mean. With that, amendments aren't necessary, since the law really doesn't mean anything anyway -- its meaning is whatever those in power decide to give it.

    So the judicial branch doesn't evolve the law -- the Constitution -- at all. What they do is refine it, tune the balance, determine how the meaning that is there applies to new situations. Their job is dependent upon the meaning being nothing more nor less than what the Framers intended.
    But Kulindahr, that is not the real practical effect of judicial rulings. As with the case Opinterph cited, it was ruled by the COURTS that the right to bear arms privately was maintained irrespective of whether or not it was tied to participation in a militia. So it did change the execution of the law into, in your words, "more than what the Framers intended."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you vote that the law can be tossed out because it is too difficult to follow.

    That's anarchy.
    I actually "vote" that the law is obsolete, inadequate to modern reality, and not "difficult", but absolutely impossible to follow. When a law is obsolete and inadequate to modern reality, it gets removed, and that's not anarchy in any way, shape or form.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    I don't get why this is a satire thread.

    There really is an educated, young Black man who is a member of the NRA (he's a contributor to NRA's website). He's an attorney & he is a gun rights activist. He calls himself the "urban gun enthusiast."

    His name is Colion Noir. Here is his blog & a video:

    http://www.mrcolionnoir.com/

    I just watched ten of his videos -- he's awesome.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Somehow Tx and others seem to think that because some white supremacists are second amendment supporters that means that second amendment supporters must be white supremacists. A glaring and classical logic fallicy.
    Exactly.

    That's not to say that Wayne La Pierre would shake the hand of any black NRA member who wasn't wearing at least a $700 suit, though.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Another bastion of second amendment race warriors:
    Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership


    Interestingly enough that group provides some commentary pointing out that some of the original gun control efforts were driven by racists intent on preventing the arming of black ex-slaves.
    I note in passing that one of the great themes of the argument for the Fourteenth Amendment was that newly freed slaves must have the right to arm themselves to fight against oppressors such as the KKK.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Interestingly enough that group provides some commentary pointing out that some of the original gun control efforts were driven by racists intent on preventing the arming of black ex-slaves.
    The same is true of much of the gun control movement in the 60s -- they didn't want anyone but whites to be armed.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I did read it and it is very interesting and enlightening. Thank you.
    I'll ditto that. I knew Patrick Henry was a bit of a loose cannon, but that surprised me from him.

    But that the militias in the South were used to hunt runaway slaves and suppress slave rebellion I thought everyone knew -- that's basic American history.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    But Kulindahr, that is not the real practical effect of judicial rulings. As with the case Opinterph cited, it was ruled by the COURTS that the right to bear arms privately was maintained irrespective of whether or not it was tied to participation in a militia. So it did change the execution of the law into, in your words, "more than what the Framers intended."
    The courts ruled according to the law and the original meaning. The Amendment gives no requirement that anyone participate in an organize militia; indeed it rests on the premise that everyone capable of bearing arms is a member of the militia. Since we are all members of the militia, it was the belief of the Framers that we would all attend to our duty to be ready to answer the call, bringing our own weapons and gear.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The courts ruled according to the law and the original meaning. The Amendment gives no requirement that anyone participate in an organize militia; indeed it rests on the premise that everyone capable of bearing arms is a member of the militia. Since we are all members of the militia, it was the belief of the Framers that we would all attend to our duty to be ready to answer the call, bringing our own weapons and gear.
    Was it in your opinion the FF's intention that at a time when this function was completely obsolete weapons would remain widespread in private hands with no capacity to fulfill the intended purpose expressed for the 2nd Amendment but used for widespread violence and crime?

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I actually "vote" that the law is obsolete, inadequate to modern reality, and not "difficult", but absolutely impossible to follow. When a law is obsolete and inadequate to modern reality, it gets removed, and that's not anarchy in any way, shape or form.
    It's not obsolete so long as there are people willing to attack others. It's only inadequate to the lazy who would rather let someone else futily attempt to provide protection. And it would be easier to follow than providing universal health care would be.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The courts ruled according to the law and the original meaning. The Amendment gives no requirement that anyone participate in an organize militia; indeed it rests on the premise that everyone capable of bearing arms is a member of the militia. Since we are all members of the militia, it was the belief of the Framers that we would all attend to our duty to be ready to answer the call, bringing our own weapons and gear.
    And since that didn't happen, the amendment needs to be reevaluated or better yet - scrapped and replaced with something more current.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's not obsolete so long as there are people willing to attack others. It's only inadequate to the lazy who would rather let someone else futily attempt to provide protection. And it would be easier to follow than providing universal health care would be.
    False. On multiple levels. More ethically advanced countries in the first world have long realized that individuals bearing arms brings nothing to safety and only introduces anarchy and volatility. And the amendment is inadequate because it was designed around the concept of militia, and there is no militia in present day. It was also written at a time when the concept of high-capacity automatics did not exist, which makes it obsolete.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Was it in your opinion the FF's intention that at a time when this function was completely obsolete weapons would remain widespread in private hands with no capacity to fulfill the intended purpose expressed for the 2nd Amendment but used for widespread violence and crime?
    The end of your statement shows the first to be in error: so long as there is anyone who wishes to commit violence and crime, the "function" is not obsolete. The FFs knew that the "security of a free state" begins at home, with each person responsible to defend self and family and friends against those who would weaken the free state by commission of violence.

    BTW, in terms of ownership of firearms, they are not "used for widespread violence and crime". The number of gun owners continues to increase, the number of guns owned continues to increase, and both gun crime and other violent crime continue to decrease. Those who misuse firearms are a small minority -- after all, over a hundred million gun owners did not commit any crime last year.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And since that didn't happen, the amendment needs to be reevaluated or better yet - scrapped and replaced with something more current.
    No, we merely have to get Congress to do their job and make use of Article 1, Section 8. Doing so would not only address the issues in every mass shooting in the last several years, but most inner city violence as well.

    I would love to see some actual liberals among the Democrats introduce a comprehensive mental health care law as the lead item in a new Militia Act, just to watch the righties squirm and squeal at Congress actually trying to do its job.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    False. On multiple levels. More ethically advanced countries in the first world have long realized that individuals bearing arms brings nothing to safety and only introduces anarchy and volatility. And the amendment is inadequate because it was designed around the concept of militia, and there is no militia in present day. It was also written at a time when the concept of high-capacity automatics did not exist, which makes it obsolete.
    Bullshit.

    I'm alive because of the right to keep and bear arms, and so are thousands, probably tens of thousands, of others.

    BTW, you're in error about the militia -- by law, if you're a legal resident of the United States, you're a member of the militia. The militia is all of us.

    If Congress really wanted to address gun violence, it would pass a mandatory universal military service law, thus requiring all the cowards who want to pretend violence will go away if those scary guns are just gone to grow up.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The end of your statement shows the first to be in error: so long as there is anyone who wishes to commit violence and crime, the "function" is not obsolete. The FFs knew that the "security of a free state" begins at home, with each person responsible to defend self and family and friends against those who would weaken the free state by commission of violence.

    BTW, in terms of ownership of firearms, they are not "used for widespread violence and crime". The number of gun owners continues to increase, the number of guns owned continues to increase, and both gun crime and other violent crime continue to decrease. Those who misuse firearms are a small minority -- after all, over a hundred million gun owners did not commit any crime last year.
    This is myth think. There is no drop in crime nor rise in domestic security because of the porliferation of private firearms, no matter how much that myth suffers attempts to be willed into reality by the NRA and gun lobby. Our violent gun crime rate is a skyrocket compared to virtually every comparable first world country. It has not provided our free state any security. To say that it does is simply denying reality.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This is myth think. There is no drop in crime nor rise in domestic security because of the porliferation of private firearms, no matter how much that myth suffers attempts to be willed into reality by the NRA and gun lobby. Our violent gun crime rate is a skyrocket compared to virtually every comparable first world country. It has not provided our free state any security. To say that it does is simply denying reality.
    The problem Kuli seems to have with this is that HE has - supposedly - been saved by owning a gun. Whether he would have even BEEN in a life-threatening situation if it weren't for the massive abundance of guns is unclear, but his anecdotal evidence of personal experience somehow trumps in his mind any date you can present. Or at least that's my impression.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Bullshit.

    I'm alive because of the right to keep and bear arms, and so are thousands, probably tens of thousands, of others.

    BTW, you're in error about the militia -- by law, if you're a legal resident of the United States, you're a member of the militia. The militia is all of us.

    If Congress really wanted to address gun violence, it would pass a mandatory universal military service law, thus requiring all the cowards who want to pretend violence will go away if those scary guns are just gone to grow up.
    See above re your being alive because of guns.

    And btw, no, I am not in error about the militia. Just because a 300 year old document defines people as "militia" doesn't make them militia any more than I will be a Martian if a piece of paper called me so. A militia does certain things, has certain responsibilities. Whether US citizens are militia is NOT defined by what the framers said, it's defined by whether they act like a militia. The answer is obviously no, they do not.

    Can you even offer actual steps that Congress can take to turn the 300 million Americans into militia? Please share.

    Also, refrain from calling me a coward. I can call you many things, but I refrain from doing so because we are supposed to be adults here. It is not cowardice to want a culture of violence to be changed. It is humanism. Look it up before you get any more condescending.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If Congress really wanted to address gun violence, it would pass a mandatory universal military service law, thus requiring all the cowards who want to pretend violence will go away if those scary guns are just gone to grow up.
    This reads to me as a concession that private gun ownership in its current form is to blame for the gun violence problem.

    Also, I have absolutely no problem sleeping at night without massive firepower close at hand. I don't know how that makes me a coward compared to someone who needs it.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; September 19th, 2013 at 11:52 PM.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This reads to me as a concession that private gun ownership in its current form is to blame for the gun violence problem.

    Also, I have absolutely no problem sleeping at night without massive firepower close at hand. I don't know how that makes me a coward compared to someone who needs it.
    This would seem to sum it up rather nicely. I also have never felt the slightest need to hide behind a gun.

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