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Thread: Black NRA

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    Black NRA

    Both links go to the same video, I just thought the first one was funnier. Of course it hasn't happened but think about it!

    http://jezebel.com/sarah-silverman-j...ica-1280020673

    How timely! Just after George Zimmerman was taken into custody following an alleged domestic dispute involving his soon-to-be ex-wife (hear that ladies? He's siiiiiiingle!), Sarah Silverman released this very relevant PSA on Funny or Die.
    http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/f87...nra?rel=player

    Black NRA
    By Sarah Silverman
    The NRA is finally putting guns into the hands of those who need them most.
    Published September 09, 2013
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: Black NRA

    The funny thing is that if it were primarily the inner city black community in the US pushing for their 2nd amendment rights....I suspect that it would produce a different kind of conversation.

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    Re: Black NRA

    I think those who seriously believe in the second amendment right would not have any problem with 'law abiding' responsible black youths owning guns, hoodies or not.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA

    I've always said if Black men showed up in droves legally armed to the teeth where White people were gathered, all hell would break loose and someone would figure out a way to press charges. If they marched on Washington when Bush was in office, the Army would have been called out.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quite well done.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    ODD!

    I went to their website for the first time in my life and after poking around for a few, i cannot find a picture of a black person at all....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by justdra View Post
    I've always said if Black men showed up in droves legally armed to the teeth where White people were gathered, all hell would break loose and someone would figure out a way to press charges. If they marched on Washington when Bush was in office, the Army would have been called out.
    If they marched on Washington when Bush was in office, the Army would have been called out.
    Wouldn't have happened. Posse comitatus makes the use of federal troops to be illegal.

    With this in mind, the Second Amendment was invoked to control behavior of newly-freed slaves (after 1865, of course.) Later, Pres. Eisenhower called up the National Guard to quell the violence in the South.
    .............
    Last edited by chrisrobin; September 13th, 2013 at 08:30 PM.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I think those who seriously believe in the second amendment right would not have any problem with 'law abiding' responsible black youths owning guns, hoodies or not.
    But that would deprive those who seriously "believe" in the second amendment rights their favorite race war fantasies.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    But that would deprive those who seriously "believe" in the second amendment rights their favorite race war fantasies.
    Why do you think they are the same group sets? Admittedly, there is likely a sizable of overlap between the group of those who support the second amendment and the group who engage in race war fantasies but the two are not interdependent. Anyone who really supports the inherent rights embodied in the second amendment, has to legitimately argue that those rights apply equally to all Americans regardless of race (whatever race is supposed to mean, as far as I know there is only one Human Race).
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA

    Because they are.

    I love this "those who support the second amendment" as if no one else "supports." Please. You seem to be using an OPINION of what the RIGHT interprets the second amendment to mean. Which is in and of itself bullshit since we DON'T have constitutional free access to firearms and certainly and quite constitutionally haven't during the whole modern era.

    THE QUESTION has NEVER been can the government regulate, the question is how much the Gov SHOULD regulate. That's all.


    All the rest of that flag waving crap was invented by right wingers as justifications for their race war conspiracies - fueled by fear mongering companies who need markets in which to sell their penis extenders.

    You can try to tell people otherwise, but I grew up with these people and know better.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Because they are.

    I love this "those who support the second amendment" as if no one else "supports." Please. You seem to be using an OPINION of what the RIGHT interprets the second amendment to mean. Which is in and of itself bullshit since we DON'T have constitutional free access to firearms and certainly and quite constitutionally haven't during the whole modern era.

    THE QUESTION has NEVER been can the government regulate, the question is how much the Gov SHOULD regulate. That's all.


    All the rest of that flag waving crap was invented by right wingers as justifications for their race war conspiracies - fueled by fear mongering companies who need markets in which to sell their penis extenders.

    You can try to tell people otherwise, but I grew up with these people and know better.
    You grew up with a certain set of people and are quite fallaciously assuming that means you know all the people who share one lone similarity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Because they are.

    I love this "those who support the second amendment" as if no one else "supports." Please. You seem to be using an OPINION of what the RIGHT interprets the second amendment to mean. Which is in and of itself bullshit since we DON'T have constitutional free access to firearms and certainly and quite constitutionally haven't during the whole modern era.

    THE QUESTION has NEVER been can the government regulate, the question is how much the Gov SHOULD regulate. That's all.


    All the rest of that flag waving crap was invented by right wingers as justifications for their race war conspiracies - fueled by fear mongering companies who need markets in which to sell their penis extenders.

    You can try to tell people otherwise, but I grew up with these people and know better.
    All rights are subject to 'reasonable' regulation, that is part and parcel of the entire concept of rights and 'responsibilities' of citizenship. Its why we have slander and libel laws, why your religion does not grant you the right of blood sacrifice, etc. So you are quite right that the debate is the level of regulation, not whether you can regulate. But being an enumerated right, the level of regulation is held to a higher standard of justification. But that is moving off the track of the conversation.

    I've known a few racists in my time, my father among them, but generally I don't associate with them more than I have to or understand their reasoning, it is beyond me. I have never heard the second amendment right discussed in terms of race before from anybody but you. I've certainly never associated it that way. Can you point me to any NRA or other non-white supremacist group that advocates arming due to race issues?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    All rights are subject to 'reasonable' regulation, that is part and parcel of the entire concept of rights and 'responsibilities' of citizenship. Its why we have slander and libel laws, why your religion does not grant you the right of blood sacrifice, etc. So you are quite right that the debate is the level of regulation, not whether you can regulate. But being an enumerated right, the level of regulation is held to a higher standard of justification. But that is moving off the track of the conversation.

    I've known a few racists in my time, my father among them, but generally I don't associate with them more than I have to or understand their reasoning, it is beyond me. I have never heard the second amendment right discussed in terms of race before from anybody but you. I've certainly never associated it that way. Can you point me to any NRA or other non-white supremacist group that advocates arming due to race issues?
    The only legitimate foundation for any limitation on any right is harm to others -- nothing else is reasonable.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    All rights are subject to 'reasonable' regulation, that is part and parcel of the entire concept of rights and 'responsibilities' of citizenship. Its why we have slander and libel laws, why your religion does not grant you the right of blood sacrifice, etc. So you are quite right that the debate is the level of regulation, not whether you can regulate. But being an enumerated right, the level of regulation is held to a higher standard of justification. But that is moving off the track of the conversation.

    I've known a few racists in my time, my father among them, but generally I don't associate with them more than I have to or understand their reasoning, it is beyond me. I have never heard the second amendment right discussed in terms of race before from anybody but you. I've certainly never associated it that way. Can you point me to any NRA or other non-white supremacist group that advocates arming due to race issues?
    All of this means nothing. We already regulate who can have what. ALREADY! PERFECTLY LEGALLY!!!

    The right uses this 2nd Amendment crap to try and muddy the issue, which is that you DON'T have free access to firearms and you never did.

    Oh and if you want to find the racist man children - fucking use your search engine. They aren't hard to find. I can only assume you are extremely sheltered.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; September 18th, 2013 at 08:00 PM.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You grew up with a certain set of people and are quite fallaciously assuming that means you know all the people who share one lone similarity.
    You insist that your opinions, quite fallaciously are some species of fact.

    They aren't - they's just what you want to believe.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    You insist that your opinions, quite fallaciously are some species of fact.

    They aren't - they's just what you want to believe.
    I only very rarely give my opinions concerning firearms. Mostly, I explain what the Second Amendment means, and insist we work from that point rather than just aim to trample it. So actually, you have no clue at all what I "want to believe".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Bull, fucking shit. You just pretend they aren't opinions.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I only very rarely give my opinions concerning firearms.
    My eyebrows.

    I agree with Beau here. The pattern of these discussions Kul is you give your opinion on how the 2nd Amendment must be interpreted without change for the rest of time, and if anyone rejects that they are accused of failing to read properly.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; September 18th, 2013 at 08:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    My eyebrows.

    I agree with Beau here. The pattern of these discussions Kul is you give your opinion on how the 2nd Amendment must be interpreted without change for the rest of time, and if anyone rejects that they are accused of failing to read properly.
    This. And then you arbitrarily add clauses to it based on what the framers "actually" meant, because reasons.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    My eyebrows.

    I agree with Beau here. The pattern of these discussions Kul is you give your opinion on how the 2nd Amendment must be interpreted without change for the rest of time, and if anyone rejects that they are accused of failing to read properly.
    I give no opinions on how I think it should be interpreted -- I don't think I've ever even come close to giving my opinion on the matter, except when speaking of teaching people safety. All I do is relate what the people who wrote and fought for it said it meant, and what the grammar and words mean.

    Those things have been linked on this site. They are easily available in the collections of writings about the ratification process, such as the Federalist Papers. They are also found in numerous Supreme Court mentions of the Second Amendment, which make plain that it's an individual right to have military weapons.

    I might one day give my actual opinion, but I haven't yet.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I give no opinions on how I think it should be interpreted -- I don't think I've ever even come close to giving my opinion on the matter, except when speaking of teaching people safety. All I do is relate what the people who wrote and fought for it said it meant, and what the grammar and words mean.

    Those things have been linked on this site. They are easily available in the collections of writings about the ratification process, such as the Federalist Papers. They are also found in numerous Supreme Court mentions of the Second Amendment, which make plain that it's an individual right to have military weapons.

    I might one day give my actual opinion, but I haven't yet.
    All of those things were written and spoken in a time where the common weapon was a musket that took a minute or more to reload, and were incapable of the kind of casual mass killing in the hands of one upset person that we are dealing with today because of people who insist upon a purist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment reflected in state and local regulations on who can get guns and how easy it is for them to get them.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I give no opinions on how I think it should be interpreted -- I don't think I've ever even come close to giving my opinion on the matter, except when speaking of teaching people safety. All I do is relate what the people who wrote and fought for it said it meant, and what the grammar and words mean.

    Those things have been linked on this site. They are easily available in the collections of writings about the ratification process, such as the Federalist Papers. They are also found in numerous Supreme Court mentions of the Second Amendment, which make plain that it's an individual right to have military weapons.

    I might one day give my actual opinion, but I haven't yet.

    Well aside from yeah - there is no fucking "consensus" on what they "meant," no there isn't - you just have your opinions; you OBVIOUSLY don't have a right to "military" weapons since you can't have any. Legally, Constitutionally, or in any other way.

    So OBVIOUSLY this is YOUR OPINION of how things SHOULD go, in OBVIOUS disagreement with the Supreme Court.

    So sad for you.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    All of those things were written and spoken in a time where the common weapon was a musket that took a minute or more to reload, and were incapable of the kind of casual mass killing in the hands of one upset person that we are dealing with today because of people who insist upon a purist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment reflected in state and local regulations on who can get guns and how easy it is for them to get them.
    In any event there is plenty of evidence that what Washington et al were really concerned about was that they had no standing professional army (couldn't afford it) to counter FOREIGN invasion and internal threats (whiskey rebellion) to THEIR regime that they in no way saw as repressing the "people."
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    It's curious how this topic is like a cycle. It stays dormant for a while, then suddenly explodes in multiple topics simultaneously.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    All of those things were written and spoken in a time where the common weapon was a musket that took a minute or more to reload, and were incapable of the kind of casual mass killing in the hands of one upset person that we are dealing with today because of people who insist upon a purist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment reflected in state and local regulations on who can get guns and how easy it is for them to get them.
    None of which is relevant to what the supreme law of the land means. That meaning has to be the starting point for any discussion, or we're being dishonest.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Oh Jesus Kuli the "Supreme Law of the Land" has been morphing from day one - AS WAS INTENDED!

    You just want to start damn near 300 years ago because you've got no fucking leg to stand on if you have to deal with now.
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    Yeah, like the discussion that the law is extremely harmful and needs to be drastically changed. Let's have THAT discussion.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    All of those things were written and spoken in a time …
    Though the first official census didn’t take place until 1790, the US population in 1780 was estimated to be less than 3 million (give or take a few million**).

    **Until 1850, only heads of households were counted. Slaves were listed on the census as numbers, not names, and Indians were not counted at all until the late 1800s. [PBS]




    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You … are quite fallaciously assuming that means you know
    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    what you want to believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    You just pretend

    It is certainly reasonable to criticize another member’s statements (opinion, fact, or whatever else); however, it is inappropriate to characterize another member’s motivations.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Well aside from yeah - there is no fucking "consensus" on what they "meant," no there isn't - you just have your opinions; you OBVIOUSLY don't have a right to "military" weapons since you can't have any. Legally, Constitutionally, or in any other way.

    So OBVIOUSLY this is YOUR OPINION of how things SHOULD go, in OBVIOUS disagreement with the Supreme Court.

    So sad for you.
    They wrote what they meant -- they explained it. "The great object is that every man be armed", was the theme. The only way to hold a position other than what they wrote is to ignore them.

    I congratulate you for agreeing with the right wingers that gays in Uganda don't have a right to live.

    And since I haven't stated my opinion, I can only conclude that you're taking refuge in claiming that my explanation of what the Framers said is my opinion so you can avoid what they said.

    BTW, the Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment applies to military weapons -- and that if a weapon has no military application, the Second Amendment doesn't protect it (in Miller). So contrary to the moronic chant about 18th-century muskets made here, they are in fact items not covered, because they have no current military use.

    As one liberal constitutional scholar has noted, we first have to be honest about what the Second means before we can decide where to go -- and SCOTUS said it's about military weapons.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    None of which is relevant to what the supreme law of the land means. That meaning has to be the starting point for any discussion, or we're being dishonest.
    And as I and Tx-Beau in particular have been repeatedly pointing out to you, Kulindahr, according to your logic the standing bans on military weapons, military helicopter, live armed tanks and nuclear warheads are unconstitutional. But they aren't.

    There is no possibility of finding in the original discussions among the founding fathers their opinion with regard to what degree of firepower is too much to allow for individual citizens to run around with unregulated when it comes to weapons that did not yet exist and had not yet been conceived of.

    I don't know about you, but I'm glad it's not legal for individual citizens to own vials of smallpox, bioweapons, nuclear warheads or anti-aircraft launchers. And I'd similarly be glad if they were not allowed to own enough firepower to go into a crowd of people and kill dozens of them in a minute fraction of the time anyone could possibly react in any meaningful way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    They wrote what they meant -- they explained it. "The great object is that every man be armed", was the theme. The only way to hold a position other than what they wrote is to ignore them.

    I congratulate you for agreeing with the right wingers that gays in Uganda don't have a right to live.

    And since I haven't stated my opinion, I can only conclude that you're taking refuge in claiming that my explanation of what the Framers said is my opinion so you can avoid what they said.

    BTW, the Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment applies to military weapons -- and that if a weapon has no military application, the Second Amendment doesn't protect it (in Miller). So contrary to the moronic chant about 18th-century muskets made here, they are in fact items not covered, because they have no current military use.

    As one liberal constitutional scholar has noted, we first have to be honest about what the Second means before we can decide where to go -- and SCOTUS said it's about military weapons.
    This is nonsense because we can and do ban most military weapons. From what you're saying here I would be forced to conclude you disagree with the constitutionality of that but it doesn't change the fact that our standing laws ban most military weapons from private use.

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    I don't believe I said word one about why he believes what he does - just pointed out the phenomena. Frankly he didn't comment on my motivations either.

    And also it's kind of odd to say you can't comment on motivations in a political argument, that's kinda germane to the whole shebang.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    They wrote what they meant -- they explained it. "The great object is that every man be armed", was the theme. The only way to hold a position other than what they wrote is to ignore them.

    I congratulate you for agreeing with the right wingers that gays in Uganda don't have a right to live.

    And since I haven't stated my opinion, I can only conclude that you're taking refuge in claiming that my explanation of what the Framers said is my opinion so you can avoid what they said.

    BTW, the Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment applies to military weapons -- and that if a weapon has no military application, the Second Amendment doesn't protect it (in Miller). So contrary to the moronic chant about 18th-century muskets made here, they are in fact items not covered, because they have no current military use.

    As one liberal constitutional scholar has noted, we first have to be honest about what the Second means before we can decide where to go -- and SCOTUS said it's about military weapons.
    Oh spare me the dramatics. You can't point to any consensus of anyone who says you are right and that's that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I don't believe I said word one about why he believes what he does - just pointed out the phenomena. Frankly he didn't comment on my motivations either.

    And also it's kind of odd to say you can't comment on motivations in a political argument, that's kinda germane to the whole shebang.
    You can relate your impressions associated with the implications of another member’s statement(s), but venturing beyond that to implicate what another “assumes,” “wants,” or “pretends” quite reasonably appears to personalize what should be a free flow of discussion relating to the concepts of the topic itself.

    When debating, express your opinion about a person's ideas, not about them personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, like the discussion that the law is extremely harmful and needs to be drastically changed. Let's have THAT discussion.
    I agree that the law is extremely harmful in some places, such as with the California family that was all murdered because of a law requiring all guns to be locked up.

    But the situation can't be addressed until it's recognized that guns are not dangerous -- only people are dangerous. And the Constitution handed Congress the authority to deal with the people in the matter.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I agree that the law is extremely harmful in some places, such as with the California family that was all murdered because of a law requiring all guns to be locked up.

    But the situation can't be addressed until it's recognized that guns are not dangerous -- only people are dangerous. And the Constitution handed Congress the authority to deal with the people in the matter.
    This seems semantic to me when what's been under discussion over and over again is the ease and slack of regulation in how someone goes from not owning guns to owning guns and the ease in this country with which that person may be wildly irresponsible, disgruntled, mentally ill or similar.

    I would have an easier time accepting your position Kulindahr if you would come out clearly as supporting adding comprehensive qualifications to acquiring firearms that would at minimum prevent people who are, at the very least, currently mentally unstable from acquiring them. That wouldn't solve the problem but it would be a massive improvement.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    And as I and Tx-Beau in particular have been repeatedly pointing out to you, Kulindahr, according to your logic the standing bans on military weapons, military helicopter, live armed tanks and nuclear warheads are unconstitutional. But they aren't.

    There is no possibility of finding in the original discussions among the founding fathers their opinion with regard to what degree of firepower is too much to allow for individual citizens to run around with unregulated when it comes to weapons that did not yet exist and had not yet been conceived of.

    I don't know about you, but I'm glad it's not legal for individual citizens to own vials of smallpox, bioweapons, nuclear warheads or anti-aircraft launchers. And I'd similarly be glad if they were not allowed to own enough firepower to go into a crowd of people and kill dozens of them in a minute fraction of the time anyone could possibly react in any meaningful way.
    Once again you demonstrate that you're not reading -- either the Second Amendment or my posts. Under the Second Amendment, no individual has any right or authority to own military helicopters, tanks, or nuclear warheads. The so-called, self-appointed (and generally illegitimate) "militia" freaks can claim otherwise all they want, but "to keep and bear arms" meant to have and carry the standard arms of an individual soldier -- exactly the things a citizen was supposed to own in order to be ready when called to serve in the militia.

    The only real divergence in weaponry from then until now is that the standard arms of an individual soldier of the time were also the standard arms useful in everyday life. That is no longer the case -- which is why a careful argument may in fact be made that full-bore military weapons may be subject to stricter requirements, as they would be of use only when a person is called up for the militia. Thus the law banning fully automatic weapons is wrong on two counts: first, that it infringes on the right to own such arms, but second that it allows those who do own them to take them about in public. In a disciplined militia, such weapons would be stored securely in a facility designed for such storage, available to the owners for use only in training in grounds attached to that facility, and never allowed out except if the militia is actually called up.

    (That last, BTW, is an opinion, as it is an inference from the dual intent of the amendment, that the citizen be armed for everyday activity as well as for service of the state).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Oh spare me the dramatics. You can't point to any consensus of anyone who says you are right and that's that.
    I have pointed to what the Framers and their advocates wrote. Nothing more is necessary, since they are the unchallengeable interpreters of the intent of that for which they fought.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Oh please. They would have probably executed your gay ass and thought it a good day's work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Oh please. They would have probably executed your gay ass and thought it a good day's work.
    I think this response is not really as off topic as it could possibly appear on the surface. I think Kul that we have to rationally accept that the framers vision of a functional democracy and their worldview from the perspective of their time period had limits, and law has always reflected that in various ways, and the democratic process was always intended to modify and adapt over time.

    That's why you could repeat until blue in the face what the founders "really meant" at the moment they spoke, and it would not necessarily-- and should not-- be a sacrosanct binding religious truth on us today in a completely different time with different needs and different considerations in play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This seems semantic to me when what's been under discussion over and over again is the ease and slack of regulation in how someone goes from not owning guns to owning guns and the ease in this country with which that person may be wildly irresponsible, disgruntled, mentally ill or similar.

    I would have an easier time accepting your position Kulindahr if you would come out clearly as supporting adding comprehensive qualifications to acquiring firearms that would at minimum prevent people who are, at the very least, currently mentally unstable from acquiring them. That wouldn't solve the problem but it would be a massive improvement.
    Huh?

    Obviously you aren't reading my posts. I've been railed on for being far left for my position on the mentally ill being able to acquire firearms.

    The problem is that liberals want to put the burden on the people desiring to exercise the right -- a position that is constitutionally untenable, being akin to a poll tax. Psychological competence should be evaluated as part of a comprehensive program of achieving a "well-regulated militia", i.e. one that is trained in the use of their weapons, disciplined enough to obey their officers promptly, competent in the care and safe storage of their weapons, etc.

    Every single mass shooting in that last several years has been a demonstration that our militia is nowhere near being well-regulated. A well-regulated militia is composed of those who are responsible with their weapons -- and people leaving theirs where others can get them, and a system where a given member of the militia is known to be not competent to acquire or have them, are not responsible.


    Here's a piece of my opinion: the authority of Congress to provide for the training and discipline of the militia should never have been just a power, but an absolute requirement, a matter to be reviewed each time a census is taken, and in fact which should be included in the census -- e.g., every member of every household should be required to show evidence of training in firearm safety and use and show knowledge of when he or she must respond to the summons of a lawful authority... for a bare minimum. Any time an event indicates that the militia suffers from poor discipline -- e.g. Virginia Tech or Newtown -- Congress should be immediately required to address the matter.

    In other words, the Framers were sloppy in assuming that everyone down the years would be as aware and responsible on the matter as they were. They should have written the Constitution in a manner that would not allow us to become so sloppy that some bonehead in Arizona could acquire a firearms after he had been determined to be dangerous by a credible public institution (etc.).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think this response is not really as off topic as it could possibly appear on the surface. I think Kul that we have to rationally accept that the framers vision of a functional democracy and their worldview from the perspective of their time period had limits, and law has always reflected that in various ways, and the democratic process was always intended to modify and adapt over time.

    That's why you could repeat until blue in the face what the founders "really meant" at the moment they spoke, and it would not necessarily-- and should not-- be a sacrosanct binding religious truth on us today in a completely different time with different needs and different considerations in play.
    So to you the law is a toy to be played with by those with the wealth to purchase politicians.

    That was one of the issues in play at the Boston Tea Party: the ship of a huge corporation was not targeted idly; the corruption of government and purchase of its power by the those unaccountable by reason of their wealth was known and despised.

    The law has to mean what it says, or it is just a mask for plutocracy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So to you the law is a toy to be played with by those with the wealth to purchase politicians.
    Kul come on... this mechanic hasn't ALWAYS been part of lawmaking? As much as we could agree it's unsavory, it's the truth. You act like I'm proposing something that hasn't already been an ordinary part of our democratic process. And I am not sure what wealthy entity out there you think I'm championing who is going to throw their massive financial influence behind buying votes to get stricter gun oversight and regulation.

    That was one of the issues in play at the Boston Tea Party: the ship of a huge corporation was not targeted idly; the corruption of government and purchase of its power by the those unaccountable by reason of their wealth was known and despised.

    The law has to mean what it says, or it is just a mask for plutocracy.
    Is this your sentiment on blacks being human property? It should have never changed because it introduces a corrupt changeable nature to law?

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    Re: Black NRA

    Tell that to black people - they were certainly meant by the FF to remain slaves.

    You can pretend that the "law" has not massively changed and bears very little resemblance to 1790 or so but that does not make it true or support pretending we live in 1790 because "Founding Fathers," who quite frankly would be appalled if the law hadn't evolved over the centuries as they fully intended.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Damn - beat me to it. Fucker.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; September 18th, 2013 at 09:51 PM.
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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Kul come on... this mechanic hasn't ALWAYS been part of lawmaking? As much as we could agree it's unsavory, it's the truth. You act like I'm proposing something that hasn't already been an ordinary part of our democratic process. And I am not sure what wealthy entity out there you think I'm championing who is going to throw their massive financial influence behind buying votes to get stricter gun oversight and regulation.
    You don't have to be championing anyone in particular, you're championing the system that has underpinned tyranny since there has been a human economy. The US Constitution was an attempt to to change that -- to take the power of law from the manipulators and place it in the hands of the people. That won't work so long as you allow those in power to change the meaning wiothout changing the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Is this your sentiment on blacks being human property? It should have never changed because it introduces a corrupt changeable nature to law?
    Ah, inconsistency.

    You do see the inconsistency here, don't you? You can't argue on one hand that we don't have to change the law, because we can just redefine it, and on the other that a law has to be changed to change things?
    Last edited by Kulindahr; September 18th, 2013 at 10:04 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Tell that to black people - they were certainly meant by the FF to remain slaves.

    You can pretend that the "law" has not massively changed and bears very little resemblance to 1790 or so but that does not make it true or support pretending we live in 1790 because "Founding Fathers," who quite frankly would be appalled if the law hadn't evolved over the centuries as they fully intended.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Damn - beat me to it. Fucker.
    They did not intend the law to"evolve" -- or they wouldn't have provided for making amendments.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You don't have to be championing anyone in particular, you're championing the system that has underpinned tyranny since there has been a human economy. The US Constitution was an attempt to to change that -- to take the power of law from the manipulators and place it in the hands of the people. That won't work so long as you allow those in power to change the meaning wiothout changing the law.
    Kul I don't understand what oligarchical manipulation of democratic processes has to do with a discussion about sensible limits on firearms. I honestly don't.

    Ah, inconsistency.

    You do see the inconsistency here, don't you? You can't argue on one hand that we don't have to change the law, because we can just redefine it, and on the other that a law has to be changed to change things?
    If the private ownership of firepower was linked to training, qualification and psychological evaluation you and I would not be here having this discussion. All three of those things would be in the picture already in the case of joining a military branch, or a proper militia. We don't have one. Letting people have wildly under-regulated access to highly destructive firepower without any trianing or qualification or even the most minimal assurance that the person at the register buying it isn't completely insane is not even by your own admission what was envisioned and intended with the 2nd Amendment. So why the lionshare of the gun camp and the NRA insist that that IS the correct interpretation and translate that into the loosening and fierce defense of already loose gun access laws is beyond me, other than the religious fixation with guns and cowboy ethos that has already been mentioned in other discussions in the past few days.

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    Re: Black NRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    They did not intend the law to"evolve" -- or they wouldn't have provided for making amendments.
    They did not intend the law to evolve - so they made sure there was a process to change it.

    Yeah.
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    Re: Black NRA

    If they didn't intend the law to evolve then they were homophobic, racist, misogynist fuckers who tried to freeze the world in a time when only white men (of property) were created equal - and so why should we listen to them at all.

    Or do you think that since the FF thought so, women should be silent, vote-less and property-less.

    Come on, you can do better than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    They did not intend the law to evolve - so they made sure there was a process to change it.

    Yeah.
    If Kul were correct I also wouldn't see the point of the entire judicial branch, which beyond its scope as a balance of power also helps interpret law as unforeseen circumstances arise around its execution, or challenges to the validity or constitutionality of the law. That entire process inherently, and has always, evolved the way laws are implemented and upheld.

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