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  1. #351
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This speaks for me as well. Republicans trying to equate Benghazi with (or make worse than) the failure to act on the security memo prior to 9/11, and then turning around and trying to equate Obama's performance in a conjectural conflict that has thus far cost us nothing in military casualties or money with George Bush's Iraq policy. Amazing.

    At the earliest stages of this whole story, when Republicans were anticipating that Obama would want to intervene (and thus they were against intervention at that time) I said to a friend, the cognitive dissonance on this vs. their wholehearted support of Bush's claim of maybe-sorta weapons would end up being amazing, but as usual, only progressives noticed the cognitive dissonance.

    Now that it looks like Obama's not going to strike, let's retool the discussion into Obama's lack of effectiveness-- even though we were against intervention when he wanted it.

    Really, it's ridiculous.
    I think the incompetence charge is related more to the overall lack of achieving anything until the Russians stepped in than specifically to military intervention.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post

    Can you stage stupidity? Obama, Kerry, and crew are bumbling idiots.

    If you believe this was a grand scheme ... maybe you should also be buying the grand canyon, brooklyn bridge, etc.
    Obama is a bumbling idiot eh? Gosh what a dark spiteful world you live in...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  3. #353
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    These are not stupid men.
    No, but intelligent men sometimes do very stupid things.


    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Does anyone actually believe that Putin and Obama and their teams didn't discuss alternative measures when they sat down together in St. Petersburg? Seriously?
    Apparently not. John Kerry said that Syria would never give up its chemical weapons. Syria said that would be no problem. Obviously, our Secretary of State never bothered to ask. I was under the impression that it was part of the Sec of State's job to try to avoid wars by negotiating peaceful alternatives between the parties involved in a dispute.


    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    At the earliest stages of this whole story, when Republicans were anticipating that Obama would want to intervene (and thus they were against intervention at that time) I said to a friend, the cognitive dissonance on this vs. their wholehearted support of Bush's claim of maybe-sorta weapons would end up being amazing, but as usual, only progressives noticed the cognitive dissonance.
    I thought that interesting also. But I don't think anyone expected Republicans to support Obama on attacking Syria (despite the obvious cognitive dissonance with GWB and Iraq) because a greater cognitive dissonance for them would be to support Obama on anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Now that it looks like Obama's not going to strike, let's retool the discussion into Obama's lack of effectiveness-- even though we were against intervention when he wanted it.
    Yes. Republicans did not support the president when he wanted to attack Syria. Now that he wants to try diplomatic options instead, that is wrong, also, of course.

    It is humorous, but obviously Republicans have almost no policy on anything except to oppose whatever it is that Obama wants. Obamacare was their plan until Obama endorsed it. Then, it became the anti-Christ. Invading middle eastern countries over WMDs was their plan until Obama endorsed it. Then it became incompetence.


    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Really, it's ridiculous.
    It is spectacularly ridiculous, all around.

    The president should have explored diplomatic options with Syria from the outset. I find it embarrassing that it is Putin who is promoting peace, not the president. I find it embarrassing that Obama wants (or wanted?) to copy move by move the most obviously absurd and destructive foreign policy the USA has pursued in decades.

    And I find it embarrassing that half of America's politicians have no plan of action on anything. The sum total of their contribution to politics is to try to stop the other side from making America a better place.

  4. #354
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Obama is a bumbling idiot eh? Gosh what a dark spiteful world you live in...
    If you think the world really respects our Administration, time for you to take off the rose colored glasses in YOUR world. Obama has been a horror show, though fortunately as of yet he isn't GWB. Yet his combination of arrogance and obliviousness to his own limitations may be his biggest undoing.

    I was and still remain opposed to the strikes, btw.. so don't go there. We were wrong to try to remake Iraq by military force, and Syria would be even worse as it is a nation falling apart, beset with drought and famine in so many regions. However I don't trust this president's competence here one bit, and that of his pretentiously grand Secretary of State, the sanctimonious John Kerry? Pl-ease!!!!!!!!
    unofficial official mini meet Friday- Saturday April 11-12, 2014

  5. #355

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Obama is a bumbling idiot eh? Gosh what a dark spiteful world you live in...
    Obama allowed Putin to become a world leader in the past week by a mess of unorganized and confusing statements by members of hi administration. You and others here are spreading the BS that it was all planned and orchestrated by Obama -- do you realize how insane that sounds?

    Can you please tell me the purpose and goal?

  6. #356
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Obama allowed Putin to become a world leader in the past week by a mess of unorganized and confusing statements by members of hi administration. You and others here are spreading the BS that it was all planned and orchestrated by Obama -- do you realize how insane that sounds?

    Can you please tell me the purpose and goal?
    Unlike you, Jack - and your fly on the wall informer - I'm not as well informed on the daily activities of Putin, and Obama preferring to focus on the end result of the diplomatic exchanges between the Russians, and the Americans long may they continue ....

  7. #357
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Obama allowed Putin to become a world leader in the past week by a mess of unorganized and confusing statements by members of hi administration. You and others here are spreading the BS that it was all planned and orchestrated by Obama -- do you realize how insane that sounds?

    Can you please tell me the purpose and goal?
    Jack. News alert. Russia...and Putin are major players on the world stage. I think that your world view that the President of the US should be making policy and 'solving' the problems for everyone else is naive and arrogant. It has been responsible for a never ending narrative of misery and blowback for the last fifty plus years.

    The only country that could solve this current issue in their client state was Russia. And it was Russia that blinked in the face of military threats against the regime they prop up. And it was done in such a way as to demonstrate to the world that it is possible to reach a diplomatic, versus a military solution to the problem at hand.

    Win-Win.

  8. #358

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Unlike you, Jack - and your fly on the wall informer - I'm not as well informed on the daily activities of Putin, and Obama preferring to focus on the end result of the diplomatic exchanges between the Russians, and the Americans long may they continue ....
    So you believe that Russia's increased presence and influence in the Middle East is a good thing. I don't.

  9. #359

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Jack. News alert. Russia...and Putin are major players on the world stage. I think that your world view that the President of the US should be making policy and 'solving' the problems for everyone else is naive and arrogant. It has been responsible for a never ending narrative of misery and blowback for the last fifty plus years.

    The only country that could solve this current issue in their client state was Russia. And it was Russia that blinked in the face of military threats against the regime they prop up. And it was done in such a way as to demonstrate to the world that it is possible to reach a diplomatic, versus a military solution to the problem at hand.

    Win-Win.
    What's solved? Assad has said he's won. He'll put up road blocks from now on and will keep killing his own countryman. The war is still going on, people are getting bombed, killed, and others pushed to other countries. That's a diplomatic victory?

    Russia is the new power of influence in the Middle East, the influence of the US has been diminished.

    It's time to drill, drill, drill and become energy independent any way we can.

  10. #360
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    So you believe that Russia's increased presence and influence in the Middle East is a good thing. I don't.
    Russia's influence in Syria dates back very many years not a new reality....and is influential in persuading Assad to surrender his chemical weapons, a constructive contribution to reducing international tensions in a neighbourhood that is festering with extreme violence...otherwise, Russia's influence in the Middle East is Iran where it sells its weapons not because the Mullahs have any love for Putin's Russia....also appreciating that as a result of the embargo Western manufacutured weaponry, and other high technology - civil aircraft - may not be sold.

    The Middle East is dominated by Western nations selling their weaponry, and everything else that the rich Arabs can afford to buy making use of bases (Kuwait, Oman, UAE) with the United States, and the United Kingdom's influence overwhelming.

  11. #361
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    So you believe that Russia's increased presence and influence in the Middle East is a good thing. I don't.


    Love how you invented a conclusion that was nowhere in his post, then proceeded to argue with yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    What's solved? Assad has said he's won. He'll put up road blocks from now on and will keep killing his own countryman. The war is still going on, people are getting bombed, killed, and others pushed to other countries. That's a diplomatic victory?

    Russia is the new power of influence in the Middle East, the influence of the US has been diminished.

    It's time to drill, drill, drill and become energy independent any way we can.

    THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by TX-Beau; September 16th, 2013 at 08:57 AM.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  12. #362

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post


    Love how you invented a conclusion that was nowhere in his post, then proceeded to argue with yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -




    THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!!!
    You might want to pay attention. We're talking about the Middle East ... not Spokane.

    You appear to have the same problem as Obama .. can't think ahead.

  13. #363
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ...Why do you think that the Western Empires are bidden to clean up every mess in the world?
    Well, you could argue that we've had our greedy little fingers in all of those pies.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You might want to pay attention. We're talking about the Middle East ... not Spokane.

    You appear to have the same problem as Obama .. can't think ahead.
    Ohh, touched a nerve there did I.

    Don't worry Jack I stopped expecting that you'd listen to anyone but the voices on Fox ages ago. Now it's just kind of comedy.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  15. #365
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    What's solved? Assad has said he's won. He'll put up road blocks from now on and will keep killing his own countryman. The war is still going on, people are getting bombed, killed, and others pushed to other countries. That's a diplomatic victory?

    Russia is the new power of influence in the Middle East, the influence of the US has been diminished.

    It's time to drill, drill, drill and become energy independent any way we can.

    This is a perfect demonstration that you know nothing of the political history of Syria or the influence of the Soviet Union and Russia in Syria.

    Jack. Give it up. Like a lot of people like you, you just haven't been paying any attention to the political landscape in this region and now are completely stumped by this turn of events.

  16. #366
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  17. #367

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    This is a perfect demonstration that you know nothing of the political history of Syria or the influence of the Soviet Union and Russia in Syria.

    Jack. Give it up. Like a lot of people like you, you just haven't been paying any attention to the political landscape in this region and now are completely stumped by this turn of events.
    You'll come to the defense of Obama no matter what. It does get boring.

    What happened to your sidekick?

  18. #368
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You'll come to the defense of Obama no matter what. It does get boring.

    What happened to your sidekick?
    Funny you should say that, because you will ATTACK Obama no matter what, and most of your sidekicks have been banned ^_^
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  19. #369
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    So you believe that Russia's increased presence and influence in the Middle East is a good thing. I don't.
    There's no increase -- they're just making public something that was already true: Russia pulls Assad's strings.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #370
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    What's solved? Assad has said he's won. He'll put up road blocks from now on and will keep killing his own countryman. The war is still going on, people are getting bombed, killed, and others pushed to other countries. That's a diplomatic victory?
    Diplomacy deals in details. So yes, it's a diplomatic victory, because it (assuming it actually works) successfully handled the one small item it was meant to handle, namely the chemical weapons.

    And once the shooting starts, diplomacy is generally useless -- so achieving anything at all out of that mess is a victory for diplomacy!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #371
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    What's solved? Assad has said he's won.
    I've noticed that Republicans seem big on this type of reasoning. X policy is bad because it will make it look like/let someone else say they got a win out of it. Even if X policy is actually the one that makes the most sense or has the best chance of achieving the practical objectives desired with the least destructive cost.

    If Assad claims he's the son of God returned, are you going to say Obama's policy is responsible for Assad's self-deification? Is that the basis upon which we should frame policy?

  22. #372
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    If you think the world really respects our Administration, time for you to take off the rose colored glasses in YOUR world. Obama has been a horror show, though fortunately as of yet he isn't GWB. Yet his combination of arrogance and obliviousness to his own limitations may be his biggest undoing.

    I was and still remain opposed to the strikes, btw.. so don't go there. We were wrong to try to remake Iraq by military force, and Syria would be even worse as it is a nation falling apart, beset with drought and famine in so many regions. However I don't trust this president's competence here one bit, and that of his pretentiously grand Secretary of State, the sanctimonious John Kerry? Pl-ease!!!!!!!!
    I'm trying to find a hard point in here other than "those guys stink!"

  23. #373

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I've noticed that Republicans seem big on this type of reasoning. X policy is bad because it will make it look like/let someone else say they got a win out of it. Even if X policy is actually the one that makes the most sense or has the best chance of achieving the practical objectives desired with the least destructive cost.

    If Assad claims he's the son of God returned, are you going to say Obama's policy is responsible for Assad's self-deification? Is that the basis upon which we should frame policy?
    Why didn't Obama try diplomacy from the being like he promised in 2007?

    He was forced into diplomacy by the gaffe of his SOS.

    Zig-Zag Diplomacy ... just one of Obama's legacies.

  24. #374
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    I'm trying to find a hard point in here other than "those guys stink!"
    See, and I was so diplomatic in not pointing out that as a foreigner, I actually have first hand knowledge of whether the Obama administration is respected or not...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  25. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post

    Why didn't Obama try diplomacy from the being like he promised in 2007?

    He was forced into diplomacy by the gaffe of his SOS.

    Zig-Zag Diplomacy ... just one of Obama's legacies.
    Better than no diplomacy and bombing countries. Guess whose legacy that one is.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  26. #376
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Why didn't Obama try diplomacy from the being like he promised in 2007?

    He was forced into diplomacy by the gaffe of his SOS.

    Zig-Zag Diplomacy ... just one of Obama's legacies.
    He probably didn't try diplomacy from the very beginning because the Assad regime's immediate kneejerk reaction after the use of chemical weapons was "If you do anything about it, we're going to attack Israel."

    Since then, likely under pressure from Russia (as well as self-preservation), they have relented on that belligerent stance considerably.

    What I find interesting though is that you are condemning not going down a first route of diplomacy when the party you wholeheartedly support took us through 8 years of "you are for us or against us, we don't negotiate with terrorists."

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    He probably didn't try diplomacy from the very beginning because the Assad regime's immediate kneejerk reaction after the use of chemical weapons was "If you do anything about it, we're going to attack Israel."

    Since then, likely under pressure from Russia (as well as self-preservation), they have relented on that belligerent stance considerably.
    That makes a fair degree of sense.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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