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  1. #151
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    As the advocate of action it is incumbent upon you to tell me how your scenario will play out.
    Since I'm not a war planner and am going off of what I've read and heard on TV, I would guess that the strikes would hit war centers, government buildings (like the Defense Ministry offices in Damascus) and possibly even some terrorists fighting with the rebels. Obama has been inconsistent and appearing amateurish lately, but I don't think he's a liar. When he says that there will be no soldiers in Syria, I believe him. When he says the strikes will be limited, I believe him. When he says the goal of the strikes isn't regime change, I believe him. That's why I support him.

    If I felt that Obama's actions would tilt the battle either way, I wouldn't support him. America and France don't need to own what happens to Syria which I feel will be a lot more bloodshed. Furthermore, letting a dictator kill civilians with banned weapons isn't something the international community should ignore.

    All of these countries, and the US, have signed on to the chemical weapons ban treaty. And they have decided to be spectators, because "they don't have to get involved." Now it's time for the adults in the room to act like adults.
    Last edited by Lostlover; September 1st, 2013 at 04:19 PM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    What are you basing any of this on? What personal agenda are you talking about? I'm serious. I don't have a clue on anything you're referring to.

    The biggest supporters of military action are two Republicans (Graham and McCain). A Rhode Island senator whose name is skipping me is supporting Obama. Pelosi is supporting Obama. David Gergen, on CNN, said that he sees no way that Congress doesn't authorize action.
    If that's true why would Obama waste time going thru the expected rubber stamp of a Congress "not in his camp"...ah...to show his LACK of partisanship? LOL. Now, THAT may make some sense at last but given his agenda ...nope. Oh and it's not a personal agenda but a political one. Unless you think the man cannot be separated from the office.

    But any way you look at it. 100% chance of approval. The action will be almost just a formality in terms of the "attack" of course. Iran doesn't make any difference either. Russia might if they threaten a break of diplomacy over it or something almost impossible. Won't happen. Any more than Korea sending troops or Bolivia etc....

    Somethings are kinda etched in stone. Obama's agenda is one of them.

  3. #153
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Since I'm not a war planner and am going off of what I've read and heard on TV, I would guess that the strikes would hit war centers, government buildings (like the Defense Ministry offices in Damascus) and possibly even some terrorists fighting with the rebels. Obama has been inconsistent and appearing amateurish lately, but I don't think he's a liar. When he says that there will be no soldiers in Syria, I believe him. When he says the strikes will be limited, I believe him. When he says the goal of the strikes isn't regime change, I believe him. That's why I support him.

    If I felt that Obama's actions would tilt the battle either way, I wouldn't not support him. America and France don't need to own what happens to Syria which I feel will be a lot more bloodshed. Furthermore, letting a dictator kill civilians with banned weapons isn't something the international community should ignore.
    Do you even comprehend how non-productive that fatuous statement (in bold) is?

    I am thankful you have a commanding officer (I think).

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    What are you basing any of this on? What personal agenda are you talking about? I'm serious. I don't have a clue on anything you're referring to.

    The biggest supporters of military action are two Republicans (Graham and McCain). A Rhode Island senator whose name is skipping me is supporting Obama. Pelosi is supporting Obama. David Gergen, on CNN, said that he sees no way that Congress doesn't authorize action.
    Support is merely token and not voting plus Gergen is not an authoritative source. But for once he's correct.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    If that's true why would Obama waste time going thru the expected rubber stamp of a Congress "not in his camp"...ah...to show his LACK of partisanship? LOL. Now, THAT may make some sense at last but given his agenda ...nope. Oh and it's not a personal agenda but a political one. Unless you think the man cannot be separated from the office.

    But any way you look at it. 100% chance of approval. The action will be almost just a formality in terms of the "attack" of course. Iran doesn't make any difference either. Russia might if they threaten a break of diplomacy over it or something almost impossible. Won't happen. Any more than Korea sending troops or Bolivia etc....

    Somethings are kinda etched in stone. Obama's agenda is one of them.
    Do you remember when Bush acted outside the domestic and international laws? Remember when Bush turned the DoJ into a political department, firing "liberal" prosecutors? Do you remember all of the things Bush did that stepped on the constitution?

    Well, Obama is trying to be the exactly opposite. He can't criticize Bush to get elected and then use the same tactics that he just admonished him for. Obama, clearly, had to work within the law, and go through Congress which is only natural.

    If Obama wanted to strike Syria, he would have done it two years ago without 100,000+ Syrians dying in interim. I can't find the article I read it in, but it said that after Syrian missiles landed in Turkey, the Turkish PM wanted NATO to get involved since an attack on one is seen as an attack on all NATO members. That would have brought the US and Europe isn't the Syrian matter. Obama persuaded the Turkish PM not to do this, instead offering him Patriot missile batteries as an alternative.

    (Ironically, all the people here from other countries can thank Obama for persuading Turkey to not call on NATO to get involved in the crisis. Otherwise, a year ago, they would have participated in this conflict.)

    Obama is someone who I feel doesn't want war. He boxed himself in with his red line comments a year ago. To say that this is political is unfounded.
    Last edited by Lostlover; September 1st, 2013 at 04:32 PM.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Here is what Australia is going to do about Syria:



    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    I think a lot of this is coming down to his own ego, frankly, and possibly whoever has been in his ear egging him on with this.
    Agreed.

    When you draw a line in the sand and then threaten another with harm if he crosses it, it becomes a matter of ego when the line is crossed. Obama doesn't want to look impotent to the world. He needs to rough up Assad a little so he can look like a tough guy.

    This isn't about the Syrian people. It's about Obama's ego.


    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Sounds like his Chief of Staff was able to break through and talk some sense into him on Friday night. Hopefully, warhawk Hillary is also taking good notes of this situation if she plans to run in 2016. The country has vastly changed and when they say they aren't going to tolerate the continuation of the Bush Foreign Policy, they mean it.
    I think Obama is vacillating because virtually every leader of every nation on earth is telling him not to do this. Even the American people are telling him not to do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    This whole thing is a catastrophe in the making.... Congress, please vote no... and Mr. President, ACCEPT that result.
    It is remarkable to me that, for once, almost everyone understands what a catastrophe attacking Syria would be. Except, of course, for the president and Mr. Kerry, who have been replaced with clones of Bush and Rumsfeld.


    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    But Syrians who say Obama is a coward are wrong. He's not a coward but he lets his personal agenda in party politics dictate everything. Everything Obama has even done is political in nature and geared to bolstering his party. I cannot think of any President so keyed into party politics as he has been.
    I could not disagree more.

    President Obama has copied most of the policies of the George W. Bush administration, much to the frustration of those of us who wanted a Democrat in the White House. He gave up on fair taxation of rich people. He gave us the Republican Party plan for private health care, not the comprehensive care America needs. He has continued detaining prisoners indefinitely in illegal prisons without trial. He has continued massive surveillance of Americans without warrants. He has kept up a wall of obsessive secrecy around his administration and he has pursued whistleblowers more aggressively than any administration in history. Now, he is repeating GWB's policy of attacking middle eastern countries unprovoked.

    Obama is no partisan Democrat. A partisan Republican, perhaps, but this man is no Democrat.

  8. #158
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    Obama is no partisan Democrat. A partisan Republican, perhaps, but this man is no Democrat.
    ...seriously?
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Do you remember when Bush acted outside the domestic and international laws? Remember when Bush turned the DoJ into a political department, firing "liberal" prosecutors? Do you remember all of the things Bush did that stepped on the constitution?

    Well, Obama is trying to be the exactly opposite. He can't criticize Bush to get elected and then use the same tactics that he just admonished him for. Obama, clearly, had to work within the law, and go through Congress which is only natural.

    If Obama wanted to strike Syria, he would have done it two years ago without 100,000+ Syrians dying in interim. I can't find the article I read it in, but it said that after Syrian missiles landed in Turkey, the Turkish PM wanted NATO to get involved since an attack on one is seen as an attack on all NATO members. That would have brought the US and Europe isn't the Syrian matter. Obama persuaded the Turkish PM not to do this, instead offering him Patriot missile batteries as an alternative.

    (Ironically, all the people here from other countries can thank Obama for persuading Turkey to not call on NATO to get involved in the crisis. Otherwise, a year ago, they would have participated in this conflict.)

    Obama is someone who I feel doesn't want war. He boxed himself in with his red line comments a year ago. To say that this is political is unfounded.
    Please don't obfuscate things with an invalid contrast to what Bush did. Obama must stand on his own here, in his second term, and well-divorced from anything Bush did (Bush did nothing of ANY importance in Syria). Your feelings about Obama not wanting war maybe correct but we will never know Obama's personal views behind the iron mask of his political identity. Of course this is political. What the hell else could it be. You sound like a nice guy but quite na´ve IMO.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Please don't obfuscate things with an invalid contrast to what Bush did. Obama must stand on his own here, in his second term, and well-divorced from anything Bush did (Bush did nothing of ANY importance in Syria). Your feelings about Obama not wanting war maybe correct but we will never know Obama's personal views behind the iron mask of his political identity. Of course this is political. What the hell else could it be. You sound like a nice guy but quite na´ve IMO.
    What's making it political? Or politically beneficial to Obama? Syria will still be a quagmire after the strikes. Success won't be obvious to Americans. There's more risk than anything.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    ...seriously?
    Wow...I'm with you on that lost...T-Rexx MUST be kidding. Obama a Republican? I can't find anything supporting he has defected from his party.

  12. #162
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    oh, and just from CNN... now the Saudis are officially egging on a US led strike, saying something to the effect the Assad regime has "crossed the bounds of infamy".
    The Saudis...

    If that batch had any vision, there would be several fewer problems over there. With respect to them and Syria...

    give Jordan and Iraq a few billion each for enough territory to give the Saudis an avenue straight to Syria, and let them annex the place.


    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    If that's true why would Obama waste time going thru the expected rubber stamp of a Congress "not in his camp"...ah...to show his LACK of partisanship? LOL. Now, THAT may make some sense at last but given his agenda ...nope. Oh and it's not a personal agenda but a political one. Unless you think the man cannot be separated from the office.

    But any way you look at it. 100% chance of approval. The action will be almost just a formality in terms of the "attack" of course. Iran doesn't make any difference either. Russia might if they threaten a break of diplomacy over it or something almost impossible. Won't happen. Any more than Korea sending troops or Bolivia etc....

    Somethings are kinda etched in stone. Obama's agenda is one of them.
    Are you serious? This has virtually no chance of passing the House. The Senate is very debatable, but I don't think it will even pass the Senate. Even if it does, it has zero chance of passing the House. Once that vote occurs and this is voted down, Obama will feign outrage ... then this issue will quickly be swept under the carpet.

    He will not attack Syria at this rate. The American people won't stand for it and leaders of virtually every other country, as was stated in this thread, are telling him not to get involved.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The first article doesn't present any evidence of the use of chemical weapons by the US and/or allies.

    The second is a mixed batch, but it doesn't give evidence of anything recent.

    The third is little different from the second -- though it's high point is noting that Rumsfeld met and shook hands with Saddam Hussein right after it was learned that Hussein had ordered the use of chemical weapons. Two evil men....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #165
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Well, it looks like Saudi Arabia - somewhat - supports our doing the dirty work.



    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3853460.html

    And we sell them those weapons why?
    Do they expect us to do a poll in Syria to find out if an attack is their will?

    I'm sure the Syrian people will want more foreigners blowing up more things in their country.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    ...seriously?
    Yes, seriously. It's why my mom and other Republican friends like him: he's nothing but an Eisenhower Republican with a few more modern GOP extreme tendencies... and no spine.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    ...seriously?
    Yes, seriously.

    Obama gave us the Heritage Foundation's (and Mitt Romney's) plan for health care in America. Not the universal coverage that Democrats wanted.

    Obama preserved almost all of GWB's tax cuts for the wealthy. In fact, he raised taxes on the middle class proportionately more than rich people, if you consider his failure to extend the payroll tax cut an "increase." For all his talk about inequality in the American tax structure, it has actually gotten worse during his administration.

    He has kept GWB's extrajudicial prisons open, and has continued to imprison people without trial indefinitely. (Yes, I know he has had resistance from Congress in dealing with this, but he has put very little effort into trying to overcome this).

    He has kept GWB's intrusive spy programs on Americans going. He has done nothing to correct the abuses we have seen, seems disinterested in addressing the issue, and even seems annoyed that people are demanding their Constitutional rights be enforced.

    He was opposed to gay marriage for almost the duration of his first term in office, until his vice president forced him to change his stance.

    He proposes to attack a middle eastern country because of claims by our intelligence services that that country is using WMDs on its own people.

    Obama is no Democrat (except in name). By many measures, Obama is more conservative than Ronald Reagan. Obama would very likely be a Republican if black people were allowed into that party.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; September 1st, 2013 at 09:37 PM.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    I would agree he has no spine, but even progressive icons like FDR acted as president in ways that resembled reviled Republican policy. He's first and foremost for Obama. Though his instincts are much more liberal he has this tendency of for cynical and Machiavellian reasons moving much more cautiously to the left than most liberals were under the impression he'd act as president. A truly left leaning Democrat would be just as ruinous to this country anyway, and less than a quarter of American voters consider themselves left of center so demographically a lefty Dem actually governing as a lefty Dem would be the death of the Democratic Party as a national one. Obama does seem though comfortable with the imperial type of presidency, and it is fair to point out how there is such a disconnect between the rhetoric and the real Obama.
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Yes, seriously.

    Obama gave us the Heritage Foundation's (and Mitt Romney's) plan for health care in America. Not the universal coverage that Democrats wanted.

    Obama preserved almost all of GWB's tax cuts for the wealthy. In fact, he raised taxes on the middle class proportionately more than rich people, if you consider his failure to extend the payroll tax cut an "increase." For all his talk about inequality in the American tax structure, it has actually gotten worse during his administration.

    He has kept GWB's extrajudicial prisons open, and has continued to imprison people without trial indefinitely. (Yes, I know he has had resistance from Congress in dealing with this, but he has put very little effort into trying to overcome this).

    He has kept GWB's intrusive spy programs on Americans going. He has done nothing to correct the abuses we have seen, seems disinterested in addressing the issue, and even seems annoyed that people are demanding their Constitutional rights be enforced.

    He was opposed to gay marriage for almost the duration of his first term in office, until his vice president forced him to change his stance.

    He proposes to attack a middle eastern country because of claims by our intelligence services that that country is using WMDs on its own people.

    Obama is no Democrat (except in name). By many measures, Obama is more conservative than Ronald Reagan. Obama would very likely be a Republican if black people were allowed into that party.
    I barely picked myself up from off the ground... this post! My goodness! I'm bummed about Guantanamo still being open. I'm realistic about spying (it's a necessary evil). Raising taxes on an economy barely leaving the recession is bad politics and bad economics. Obama supported gay marriage as a state legislator in Illinois. He was being pragmatic; he can't become president being pro-gay. People who can read between the lines know that the only evolving going on was Americans' attitudes towards us.

    Being liberal means you support the little guy. You support the people without a voice. Some times those people are racial or sexual minorities. Some times those people live overseas. Living in a world that is limited to just your country isn't very progressive. The injustice and bloodshed Syrian men, women, and children have suffered through the last two years is something progressives should be fighting for. We aren't the cold-hearted party.
    Last edited by Lostlover; September 1st, 2013 at 10:30 PM.
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    I barely picked myself up from off the ground... this post! My goodness! I'm bummed about Guantanamo still being open. I'm realistic about spying (it's a necessary evil). Raising taxes on an economy barely leaving the recession is bad politics and bad economics. Obama supported gay marriage as a state legislator in Illinois. He was being pragmatic; he can't become president being pro-gay. People who can read between the lines know that the only evolving going on was Americans' attitudes towards us.
    I hope that Obama is not the man you claim him to be.

    I would not care much for a president who pretended to believe in things he did not, just to get elected. And then, once elected on the basis of these lies, proceeded to legislate differently than he had promised.

    When true leaders are faced with a public which disagrees with them, they attempt to persuade the public to their way of thinking - not deceive the public into voting for someone who does not intend to represent their interests, however misinformed those interests may be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Being liberal means you support the little guy. You support the people without a voice. Some times those people are racial or sexual minorities. Some times those people live overseas.
    Yes, exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Living in a world that is limited to just your country isn't very progressive. The injustice and bloodshed Syrian men, women, and children have suffered through the last two years is something progressives should be fighting for. We aren't the cold-hearted party.
    Helping the oppressed doesn't always mean bombing and killing them.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; September 1st, 2013 at 10:55 PM.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    I barely picked myself up from off the ground... this post! My goodness! I'm bummed about Guantanamo still being open. I'm realistic about spying (it's a necessary evil). Raising taxes on an economy barely leaving the recession is bad politics and bad economics. Obama supported gay marriage as a state legislator in Illinois. He was being pragmatic; he can't become president being pro-gay. People who can read between the lines know that the only evolving going on was Americans' attitudes towards us.

    Being liberal means you support the little guy. You support the people without a voice. Some times those people are racial or sexual minorities. Some times those people live overseas. Living in a world that is limited to just your country isn't very progressive. The injustice and bloodshed Syrian men, women, and children have suffered through the last two years is something progressives should be fighting for. We aren't the cold-hearted party.
    There is no way the US can help women and children in Syria -- period. That's just the cold, hard reality of things. No matter what we do, the violence is going to continue. If we weaken Assad, as you suggest, we aid Al Qaeda -- so from a very real politik point of view, favoring attacking anything Assad has at this point is support for burkas and "honor" killings.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Are you serious? This has virtually no chance of passing the House. The Senate is very debatable, but I don't think it will even pass the Senate. Even if it does, it has zero chance of passing the House. Once that vote occurs and this is voted down, Obama will feign outrage ... then this issue will quickly be swept under the carpet.

    He will not attack Syria at this rate. The American people won't stand for it and leaders of virtually every other country, as was stated in this thread, are telling him not to get involved.
    American people may not stand for it but they can't do anything.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    American people may not stand for it but they can't do anything.
    Of course they can -- it would take only ten or twenty thousand reminding the Tea Party klingons in the House that Obama can't be trusted.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Of course they can -- it would take only ten or twenty thousand reminding the Tea Party klingons in the House that Obama can't be trusted.
    LOL. The can but they never will. Tea party is a joke about like Communist party in effectiveness.

    gggggggggggg

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    American people may not stand for it but they can't do anything.
    Sure they can. They can and they will vote those that vote for this authorization of force out of office. And these Congressmen know this. We got an election next year where repercussions will be felt for this.
    Last edited by MystikWizard; September 2nd, 2013 at 03:42 AM.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Obama may have dodged a bullet on this. According to Devin Nunes, a California Republican, the GOP House plans to vote "No" and he does not believe the votes are even close.

    House Republicans are poised to reject President Obama’s resolution to authorize military force against Syria absent the administration convincing a strong majority of typically anti-war Democrats to back the legislation.
    Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/09/02...#ixzz2dkOYVCQa

    Better for Obama to be embarrassed and deal with his ego being hurt than to be impeached and removed from office if he would have went ahead with this without going to Congress.
    Last edited by MystikWizard; September 2nd, 2013 at 07:56 AM.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    Helping the oppressed doesn't always mean bombing and killing them.
    The opposition to Syrian intervention is purely emotional. Please show me where Obama or any one in the administration has said that striking people--civilians--is a part of the war strategy.

    I've asked for links on many occasions in the last few days that would back up some of the claims people have said here to oppose America striking Assad and I haven't received one link yet.

    Siding with the people would include sending a swift, but strong, message to a dictator that using sarin isn't permissible.
    Last edited by Lostlover; September 2nd, 2013 at 09:08 AM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    LOL. The can but they never will. Tea party is a joke about like Communist party in effectiveness.

    gggggggggggg
    Wow -- you are really out of touch!

    The Tea Partites are the most powerful faction in the House. Boehner has to bend over and kiss their collective ass weekly at least. Get and read the book Do Not Ask What Good We Do, for a beginning understanding of what's going on.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    The opposition to Syrian intervention is purely emotional. Please show me where Obama or any one in the administration has said that striking people--civilians--is a part of the war strategy.

    I've asked for links on many occasions in the last few days that would back up some of the claims people have said here to oppose America striking Assad and I haven't received one link yet.

    Siding with the people would include sending a swift, but strong, message to a dictator that using sarin isn't permissible.
    Siding with which people -- Al Qaeda and the other terrorists? the Islamists?

    If "the people" were against Assad, this would have already been over.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Wow -- you are really out of touch!

    The Tea Partites are the most powerful faction in the House. Boehner has to bend over and kiss their collective ass weekly at least. Get and read the book Do Not Ask What Good We Do, for a beginning understanding of what's going on.
    I am a Canadian transplant so maybe so. Sounds like a good read anyway and am looking for some new material. Thanks. :||

    But in the Senate they aren't the most powerful faction.

    Sarah Palin says "Let Allah Sort it Out"

    http://www.teaparty.org/palin-on-syr...-it-out-28026/

    Just a cursory glance at tea party page indicates they are crackpots.
    Last edited by cgymike; September 2nd, 2013 at 10:53 AM.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    I am a Canadian transplant so maybe so. Sounds like a good read anyway and am looking for some new material. Thanks. :||
    It's a good read, all right -- a bit sickening, and very eye-opening about the juvenile shenanigans that pass for serious business in the nation's capital, but a good read.

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Just a cursory glance at tea party page indicates they are crackpots.
    LOL No kidding.

    One must keep in mind though, that crackpots can garner power.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    The opposition to Syrian intervention is purely emotional. Please show me where Obama or any one in the administration has said that striking people--civilians--is a part of the war strategy.

    I've asked for links on many occasions in the last few days that would back up some of the claims people have said here to oppose America striking Assad and I haven't received one link yet.

    Siding with the people would include sending a swift, but strong, message to a dictator that using sarin isn't permissible.

    Please explain to me how it is even possible to blow up stuff in Syria without risking civilian lives.

    And please provide links to support that conclusion, since links are what impresses you so much.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; September 2nd, 2013 at 11:30 AM.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Please explain to me how it is even possible to blow up stuff in Syria without risking civilian lives.

    And please provide links to support that conclusion, since links are what impresses you so much.
    Yes. They're proposing two or three hundred cruise missile strikes -- there's no way there won't be civilian casualties.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    And for the 300-1200 people ostensibly killed by the chemical weapons attack....how many civilian lives lost in 200-300 missile attacks will be enough to prove the point to Assad and Co. 250? 285? 340? 458? 673? 895? 1264? 2899? 5677? 11,001? 22,437? 63,344? Tell me all those who would like to start lobbing missiles...tell me how many collateral 'casualties make up for the deaths by Sarin? When apparently over 100,000 lives lost in the civil war to date haven't mattered a good goddamn to any one, least of all all the homos chattering on this site about the need to go in and teach Assad and his henchmen a lesson.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Please explain to me how it is even possible to blow up stuff in Syria without risking civilian lives.

    And please provide links to support that conclusion, since links are what impresses you so much.
    No. I asked you a question. Please reread: Please show me where Obama or any one in the administration has said that striking people is a part of the war strategy?

    Don't answer the simple question with a question.

    I'm all ears.
    Last edited by Lostlover; September 2nd, 2013 at 12:10 PM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    And for the 300-1200 people ostensibly killed by the chemical weapons attack
    French intelligence says it is 281 casualties, not the 1,400+ claimed by the Obama administration.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-midd...71#TWEET876206

    I'm sorry to say it, but I'm inclined to believe the French. American intelligence has a history of failure after failure after falure.



    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ....how many civilian lives lost in 200-300 missile attacks will be enough to prove the point to Assad and Co. 250? 285? 340? 458? 673? 895? 1264? 2899? 5677? 11,001? 22,437? 63,344? Tell me all those who would like to start lobbing missiles...tell me how many collateral 'casualties make up for the deaths by Sarin? When apparently over 100,000 lives lost in the civil war to date haven't mattered a good goddamn to any one, least of all all the homos chattering on this site about the need to go in and teach Assad and his henchmen a lesson.
    If we kill enough of the same people Assad is trying to kill, it will probably frighten him into becoming a better person.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    No. I asked you a question. Please reread: Please show me where Obama or any one in the administration has said that striking people is a part of the war strategy?

    Don't answer the simple question with a question.

    I'm all ears.
    The US has never been able to bomb shit without costing hundreds or even thousands of innocent lives. Even today...in Afghanistan, Pakistan and other areas where the drones get sent in....collateral deaths seem to be of absolutely no importance at all.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Siding with which people -- Al Qaeda and the other terrorists? the Islamists?
    I raised that concern several times. Get rid of Assad and replace him with an Al-Qaeda supported government that can institute Sharia Law against it's people. Great job, USA!! Well worth the effort of the missile strikes and whatever casualties that may come from it (sarcasm).
    Telling it like it is.

  39. #189

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    I am a Canadian transplant so maybe so. Sounds like a good read anyway and am looking for some new material. Thanks. :||

    But in the Senate they aren't the most powerful faction.

    Sarah Palin says "Let Allah Sort it Out"

    http://www.teaparty.org/palin-on-syr...-it-out-28026/

    Just a cursory glance at tea party page indicates they are crackpots.
    Why not let the Sunni's and Shia's fight it out between themselves. Their conflict is the low-key war that been going on for a long time. We don't need to get involved.

    Plus, we have no proof that Assad used chemical weapons. There are some rebel groups that took credit for the attacks.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Oh here we go. Nothing quite like former GOP Presidential candidate John McWar and his sidekick, Lindsey Graham, getting invited to the White House to lobby President Obama for a more powerful, robust military campaign in Syria to permanently get rid of Assad.

    Two hawkish Republicans -- Sens. John McCain and Lindsey Graham -- head to the White House on Monday to argue their call for a robust military campaign against Syria intended to significantly weaken the regime of President Bashar al-Assad.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/02/politi...nse/index.html
    Looks like they are also lobbying to restore military funding which was cut by austerity measures, as well. Anything else, guys? If you ever needed examples of who in Congress are owned by the military industrial complex, look no further?

    So they want those funds re-instated to the military PLUS a long campaign to ouster Assad and bring about regime change. I guess if Obama agrees to this, they think they can get the votes from the GOP in the House.

    My thoughts are both parties here are going to get put in their place and shown to be nothing more than the big-talkers they are. I think the GOP in the House along with the anti-war Democrats are going to put their feet down to both Obama and the Neocons he invited to the White House for a meeting today.
    Telling it like it is.

  41. #191

    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    If the Obama Administration still hasn't found out what happened at Benghazi after almost one year -- how the hell can they come to a conclusion about Syria using chemical weapons so quickly?

    Maybe there's a youtube video involved somewhere.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Oh here we go. Nothing quite like former GOP Presidential candidate John McWar and his sidekick, Lindsey Graham, getting invited to the White House to lobby President Obama for a more powerful, robust military campaign in Syria to permanently get rid of Assad.



    Looks like they are also lobbying to restore military funding which was cut by austerity measures, as well. Anything else, guys? If you ever needed examples of who in Congress are owned by the military industrial complex, look no further?

    So they want those funds re-instated to the military PLUS a long campaign to ouster Assad and bring about regime change. I guess if Obama agrees to this, they think they can get the votes from the GOP in the House.

    My thoughts are both parties here are going to get put in their place and shown to be nothing more than the big-talkers they are. I think the GOP in the House along with the anti-war Democrats are going to put their feet down to both Obama and the Neocons he invited to the White House for a meeting today.

    We can only hope.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    A critique of the proposed AUMF.

    Note: The author was an attorney in the Bush Administration.

    The Administration's Syria AUMF Is Very Broad [UPDATE on Ground Troops]

    There is much more here than at first meets the eye. The proposed AUMF focuses on Syrian WMD but is otherwise very broad. It authorizes the President to use any element of the U.S. Armed Forces and any method of force. It does not contain specific limits on targets – either in terms of the identity of the targets (e.g. the Syrian government, Syrian rebels, Hezbollah, Iran) or the geography of the targets. Its main limit comes on the purposes for which force can be used. Four points are worth making about these purposes. First, the proposed AUMF authorizes the President to use force “in connection with” the use of WMD in the Syrian civil war. (It does not limit the President’s use force to the territory of Syria, but rather says that the use of force must have a connection to the use of WMD in the Syrian conflict. Activities outside Syria can and certainly do have a connection to the use of WMD in the Syrian civil war.). Second, the use of force must be designed to “prevent or deter the use or proliferation” of WMDs “within, to or from Syria” or (broader yet) to “protect the United States and its allies and partners against the threat posed by such weapons.” Third, the proposed AUMF gives the President final interpretive authority to determine when these criteria are satisfied (“as he determines to be necessary and appropriate”). Fourth, the proposed AUMF contemplates no procedural restrictions on the President’s powers (such as a time limit).
    http://www.lawfareblog.com/2013/09/t...is-very-broad/

    Senate Democrats Drafting New Language For Authorization Of Military Force In Syria: Report
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3853449.html

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    What if this is true America would look stupid ...
    "Syrians in Ghouta Claim Saudi Supplied Rebels behind Chemical Attack"




    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    You know, Telstra ... in these past 2 days, I have seen these claims coming out that it was Saudis, who coincidentally are also cheerleading us off to war with Syria, that supplied these chemical weapons for this attack. Is it really that much of a stretch that these weapons were supplied by either Saudi Arabia, who want Assad gone ... or Al Qaeda who also want Assad gone ... and these weapons were used to lure the U.S. into a conflict and ouster Assad?

    The U.S. could and perhaps is being played for a fool. What evidence is there that Assad and his government used these weapons? Because civilians were attacked? Do we not think Al Qaeda or other insurgents that want Assad gone would stage an attack to make the rest of the world think Assad was behind it?

    No solid evidence of this incident other than physically seeing You Tube videos of civilians being injured ... and no concrete evidence showing Assad's forces were the culprits. But our government, and even some on here ... wants us to immediately rush off to war. Makes you really wonder about the forces at work behind our government officials as this seems no different than Bush's goal of regime change in the Middle East and Obama seems to simply be trying to continue Bush's work towards this goal.

    Because inevitably Iran would get involved and there we can kill two birds with one stone.

    Obama: "Well, it was not my intention with these strikes for this to turn into a full-scare war, but since Iran and Syria have joined forces and are attacking our allies, we have no other alternative than to launch a full-scare Shock and Awe military operation against these countries."
    Last edited by MystikWizard; September 2nd, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    USS Nimitz Carrier in Red Sea, But No Orders for Syria
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...ers-for-syria/

    Wouldn't it be just like the US to send a US carrier group (the Nimitz does not sail alone) closer to Syria only to launch an air attack from let's say Nevada or Missouri or Colorado or from a secret location in Saudi Arabia or from any of 63 Secret Drone bases located inside the United States ( http://www.knowthelies.com/node/7406 ).

    Maybe we strike maybe we don't. I, yes I Yuki Sohma, lay odds at 50/50 as of today.
    Last edited by Yuki Sohma; September 2nd, 2013 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    You know, Telstra ... in these past 2 days, I have seen these claims coming out that it was Saudis, who coincidentally are also cheerleading us off to war with Syria, that supplied these chemical weapons for this attack. Is it really that much of a stretch that these weapons were supplied by either Saudi Arabia, who want Assad gone ... or Al Qaeda who also want Assad gone ... and these weapons were used to lure the U.S. into a conflict and ouster Assad?

    The U.S. could and perhaps is being played for a fool. What evidence is there that Assad and his government used these weapons? Because civilians were attacked? Do we not think Al Qaeda or other insurgents that want Assad gone would stage an attack to make the rest of the world think Assad was behind it?

    No solid evidence other than civilians being injured ... but our government wants us to immediately rush off to war. Makes you really wonder about the forces at work behind our government officials as this seems no different than Bush's goal of regime change in the Middle East and Obama seems to simply be trying to continue Bush's work towards this goal.

    Because inevitably Iran would get involved and there we can kill two birds with one stone.

    Obama: "Well, it was not my intention with these strikes for this to turn into a full-scare war, but since Iran and Syria have joined forces and are attacking our allies, we have no other alternative than to launch a full-scare Shock and Awe military operation against these countries."
    If these things happen, America is at fault yet again ...


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  48. #198
    Fantasize it's Fun
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post

    "... Because inevitably Iran would get involved and there we can kill two birds with one stone.

    Obama: "Well, it was not my intention with these strikes for this to turn into a full-scare war, but since Iran and Syria have joined forces and are attacking our allies, we have no other alternative than to launch a full-scare Shock and Awe military operation against these countries."
    OMG A Shock and Awe military operation against Iran. Holy $hit Batman.

    Last edited by Yuki Sohma; September 2nd, 2013 at 04:51 PM.

  49. #199
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    Kulindahr's Avatar
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    I still say we should target just the guy who ordered the attack, if we can determine who it was.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #200
    JUB Addict MystikWizard's Avatar
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    Re: Americans Say "No" To U.S. Involvement in Syria- Despite Chemical Weapons Used by Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I still say we should target just the guy who ordered the attack, if we can determine who it was.
    I opt for a more conservative approach and say we just mind our own business.
    Telling it like it is.

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