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  1. #1
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    How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Here is the latest from Egypt. As of Friday, over 82 people have died in renewed clashes between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian government.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3771147.html
    CAIRO -- Egypt's capital descended into chaos Friday as vigilantes at neighborhood checkpoints battled Muslim Brotherhood-led protesters denouncing the ouster of President Mohammed Morsi and a deadly crackdown. The fiercest street clashes Cairo has seen in more than two years of turmoil left at least 82 people dead, including 10 policemen.

    Earlier in the week when the sit-in protests were squashed, around 700 people were killed prompting an international outcry and the U.S. pulling out from training drills with Egypt and the country's VP resigning.

    After removing a dictator, Egypt democratically elected a Muslim fundamentalist with Morsi who then divided the country into two parts, resulting in a heavy-handed coupe by the Egyptian military to install a secular, progressive government at the behest of millions of Egyptians protesting. Interestingly enough, the secular government lashed out with military violence against counter-protests, slaughtering Muslim Brotherhood protesters by the hundreds. No one has clean hands now, with the Muslim Brotherhood galvanizing Muslims in Egypt to begin a civil war against the military and secular/liberal/Christian government.

    How can Egypt save itself?
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    I don't think Egypt can save itself.

    Like Russia, Egyptians require a dictator to rule them.

    Democracy is not for everyone.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    No one has clean hands now, with the Muslim Brotherhood galvanizing Muslims in Egypt to begin a civil war against the military and secular/liberal/Christian government.

    How can Egypt save itself?

    The Muslim Brotherhood is galvanising Islamists to offer their lives as martyrs...while the Muslim Brotherhood leadership remains concealed....and safe.......The police and armed forces are made of Muslims.........the government is exclusively Muslim....

    My crystal ball needs a good cleaning.....the French Revolution and its reign of terror continued for many years...followed by a military dictatorship under Napoleon Bonaparte....the Egyptians have been living with military dictatorships since 1952...I doubt whether the Muslim Brotherhood can provide salvation for the Egyptian people.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I don't think Egypt can save itself.

    Like Russia, Egyptians require a dictator to rule them.

    Democracy is not for everyone.
    That's very dismissive of the issue at hand. Look at what is happening in Russia as the nation devolves to an oligarchy with Putin. The people of Russia can do better. They have a federation that can function if they elect the right politicians.

    A dictatorship is never the solution. Democracy is not the solution to everything, but these nations should strive towards a form of government that works for them. Representative leadership is key.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    I'm not optimistic about Egypt's chances. It has been a pawn between empires for the last 2500 years and things never look good when medieval religions hold sway. There is a whole different mindset and social structure that goes along with autocratic rule. In Russia, it is the Orthodox church that is gaining power again and is being used by the oligarchs while it uses the oligarchs...in Egypt, it will be the hardline Islamists who, in the name of cleansing the country of the corrupt and jack-booted western funded military, will try to impose a corrupt and jack-booted theocracy instead.

    We have to remember that while the younger, better educated people may want something closer to a western style representative democracy, there are huge numbers of ill educated, untravelled people who just want order and peace and to be left alone to live their lives. For many of them, strong leadership is alluring, because it promises stability.

    At this point, the smart money would be on moving Egypt's greatest treasures out of Egypt and let all the religious factions have at it.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    I personally feel (as I've always felt) that Egypt should be the master of its own destiny. The overthrow of Morsi was months in the making. Morsi couldn't solve the gas shortages that eventually caused his downfall. Soon after the military took over, the problem was solved within weeks which suggests that the military was troubleshooting this issue while Morsi was at the helm.

    As ugly as some of the scenes are on TV, I think there can be some good that comes from it. I believe that most Egyptians are appalled at the violence and would probably want civil discourse as opposed to "Days of Anger." Secondly, I feel that these events are an early spring cleaning. The thugs that set up camp, and fire automatic weapons in major cities need to be jailed or dealt with eventually to have some type of society that is stable. The military seems to be doing that.
    Last edited by Lostlover; August 17th, 2013 at 08:15 AM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Let's see--the Arab Republic of Egypt, continuously inhabited since the 10th millennium BC, has one of the longest histories of any modern state. There are over 84 million people living near the Nile and the tourism industry employs about 12% of the Egyptian people.

    Having visited that ancient land I do hope they work things out. I for one do not care or trust the Muslim Brotherhood.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Democracy can work in Egypt but not if Islamists are getting elected and not without a constitution that guarantees separation of church and state. Democracy does not have a chance if the majority want a theocracy.

    At this point, the only way I see a liberal democracy being established in Egypt is through force and violence which is what seems to be playing out now. Egypt will be much better off without the Islamists in power and keeping it that way.
    Last edited by bort138; August 17th, 2013 at 11:21 AM.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Sohma View Post
    Let's see--the Arab Republic of Egypt, continuously inhabited since the 10th millennium BC, has one of the longest histories of any modern state.
    And in all that history, Egypt has had exactly one democratically elected leader. And he lasted for all of 368 days.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Their one elected leader was also forcing through controlling legislation, like say the constitution, that in effect alienated the rest of the country who were not Muslim Brother hood. That alone tells you where the country was headed.

    The brotherhood was quite adamant that they were not burning christian churches and committing acts of terror as the military run government is saying BUT recently the son of the head of AQIP was arrested in Egypt while supporting. Now gee... I wonder why the son of the number one guy in terror was making contact during civil unrest.... weird.

    No I do not have a good feeling about the chances of Egypt because Al-Zawahiri's son will not be the last contact. Egypt will be Syria in twelve months is my prediction.

    http://www.thenewstribe.com/2013/08/...morsi-support/
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Having traveled throughout Egypt I learned that if I were to make friends amongst the everyday Egyptians (not the elitist or University Crowds), and I did make friends, that two subjects were taboo between us and those two subjects are <drum roll please >, why yes you guessed correctly, "Politics & Religion."

    I also saw how Cairo's City of the Dead--the necropolis has been around for more than 700 years in a city so crowded that today tens of thousands live here among the tombs--influenced the everyday Egyptian, where there remains no CNN, no BBC, No Radio Free Broadcasts, maybe some Al Jazeera--just plain Mullah's with enough Islamic Theocracy to share. No wonder some Egyptians turn towards radical Islamic Law or unfortunately terrorism.

    <see Cairo's City of the Dead -- National Geographic>
    http://travel.nationalgeographic.com...y-of-the-dead/ >
    Last edited by Yuki Sohma; August 17th, 2013 at 04:21 PM.

  12. #12

    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Egypt is Obama's Iraq. No big lost of American lives -- but it's what usually happens when the US picks the winners and losers.

  13. #13

    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    And in all that history, Egypt has had exactly one democratically elected leader. And he lasted for all of 368 days.
    Yes only one -- but he was intent on making himself the last democratically elected leader.

  14. #14
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Egypt is Obama's Iraq. No big lost of American lives -- but it's what usually happens when the US picks the winners and losers.
    How did Obama pick any winners or losers in Egypt?

    Seems to me he has tried hard to let Egypt work out its own problems.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Yes only one -- but he was intent on making himself the last democratically elected leader.
    He succeeded.

    Perhaps Egypt can try democracy again in another 12,000 years.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    I think it was an unwise move for the Egyptian military to react with SO much bloodshed and violence towards simple ordinary protestors, it's only going to exacerbate and enflame tensions and could even lead to a wave of terrorist attacks and Islamist radicalisation for years to come. By all means go after the structure and leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood, I'm no more a fan of them than anyone else, but I think they should probably have just ignored the protestors and instead have pressed on with reforms and democratic elections.

    If the military hate the Muslim Brotherhood so much, then why not help to elect a secular civilian government? The army can remain in power behind the scenes, and an opportunity is given for Egypt to return to normality with a popular leader directly elected. Yes you run the risk of the same result as before occurring again with another Morsi, but trial and error, and trust the will of the people.

    That option is probably off the cards now. Regrettably the military's over-reaction has instead swung this whole thing back into chaos and confusion and outrage once again, and it'd be a miracle if Egypt manages to stabilise any time soon. The unneccessarily violent confrontation was, as I said, an unwise move.

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    If they went to war with Turkey and surrendered, that might work.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Fellow JUBers,

    Try as I may (& ignoring my cat's pleas for immediate & continued loving attention) I cannot ignore this recent Associated Press news brief out of Egypt--

    CAIRO (AP) — After torching a Franciscan school, Islamists paraded three nuns on the streets like "prisoners of war" before a Muslim woman offered them refuge. Two other women working at the school were sexually harassed and abused as they fought their way through a mob.
    http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-islamist...235144103.html
    Last edited by Yuki Sohma; August 17th, 2013 at 10:30 PM.

  18. #18

    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    How did Obama pick any winners or losers in Egypt?

    Seems to me he has tried hard to let Egypt work out its own problems.




    He succeeded.

    Perhaps Egypt can try democracy again in another 12,000 years.
    The Obama Administration backed the ouster of Murbarak.

    Morsi was creating a new Islamic government that would not have allowed democratic elections --- therefore the last election.

  19. #19

    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Sohma View Post
    Fellow JUBers,

    Try as I may (& ignoring my cat's pleas for immediate & continued loving attention) I cannot ignore this recent Associated Press news brief out of Egypt--
    The Muslim Brotherhood has used the current conflict to destroy scores of Christian Churches and Schools also. One of the churches they destroyed was an historic 4th century church. Nice people, huh.

  20. #20
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Egypt is Obama's Iraq. No big lost of American lives -- but it's what usually happens when the US picks the winners and losers.
    This is one of the stupidest things I've read.

  21. #21
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The Obama Administration backed the ouster of Murbarak.
    And, in your mind, rhetorically encouraging democracy in Egypt is equivalent to invading another country unprovoked, killing 100,000 people, and spending $1 trillion of American taxpayer money.

  22. #22
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The Muslim Brotherhood has used the current conflict to destroy scores of Christian Churches and Schools also. One of the churches they destroyed was an historic 4th century church. Nice people, huh.
    Most of the victims of Islamist extremist violence are Muslim.

  23. #23

    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Egypt appears to be another of those situations where neither side is particularly desirable.
    Morsi caused his own downfall by pushing the islamist agenda too hard to the detriment of the millions of Egyptians who did not share the cause of the Muslim Brotherhood.
    That said, the crackdown and subsequent bloodshed do little to instil any faith in the new regime having any level of respect for human rights.

    As long as there is religion at the heart of politics in the region, I see no hope for peace in the near (or even distant) future. Until people can separate the practicalities of running a country and the need to respect the human rights of everyone from their desire to see their religious belief system as superior to all the others, and to impose their rules on everyone else, frankly they are screwed.

    And, as is always the case, those who will suffer will be the general populace stuck in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.
    "I'm not a moccodity"

  24. #24
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    The Egyptian armed forces do not forget that President Sadat was murdered by the Muslim Brotherhood.

    The real issue in this tragedy is not religion but control of Egypt's wealth. The Armed Forces have virtual control of most of Egypt's commercial enterprises with the remuneration funding the lives of retired military officers....and many who remain in military service. The armed forces are not going to surrender their wealth and middle class status to a bunch of religious hard liners determined to feather their own nests.

    Despite not wanting a military controlled government the majority of Egyptians want, even less another fascist, theocratic state like Iran which would deny them the human rights that they have held under successive military governments. Even Egypt's Christians lost their rights under President Morsi's new constitution....rights that they have held even under successive military governments...also a step backward for secular Egyptians preferring economic stability, work, and security in preference to handing complete power over to a gang of religious fanatics.....who have systematically destroyed the economic well being of Egypt in one year through incompetence.

    Egypt has always been the most westward leaning, and liberal of Muslim nations partly because of the earlier British influences, and the presence of large foreign minorities such as the Greeks, and Italians plus a Christian minority estimated unofficially to be between 16/21 percent of the population present in Egypt from some six hundred years before the arrival of Muslim invaders from the Arabian peninsular.

  25. #25
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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    Obama has just gotten told to stay in his room.

    On Friday, Saudi King Abdullah called on Arabs to stand together against "attempts to destabilize" Egypt, in a message of support for Egypt's military and clear attack on the Brotherhood.
    http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-warns-ag...193722872.html

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    It's not as if suspending US aid will be significant.

    .... That aid, mainly in the form of arms sales, pales when compared with the $12 billion that Gulf monarchies Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait promised Cairo as soon as the army ousted Mursi on July 3 in response to mass protests. ....
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,5044080.story

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    Re: How Can Egypt Save Itself?

    off topic:
    Sydney Islamists (non Egyptians) are protesting in support for the Muslim Brotherhood.
    If they are smart, they should not take sides but they did and i wonder why ... it always comes back to political religion.

    I can see a pattern here, islamists around the world always support the muslim brotherhood.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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