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  1. #51
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    There are marriage equality cases in TWENTY states now, making their way through the system.
    Eighteen states have federal challenges; four have state ones. There are amendment repeal proposals in two, but there will be as many as eight in the next three years. It will be a very exciting, if confusing, show to watch in the near future.

    Sadly, Michigan didn't do shit today and the judge postponed the decision for February.
    Summary judgment is not a privilege, and it was not expected despite media hype. The situation that precipitated in one in New Jersey was due to the unique circumstances there. The criteria for summary judgment at a minimum requires no disputes over facts. Since New Jersey already had a mandatory precedent, and the fact that DOMA was overturned, judgment was granted as a matter of law to Garden State Equality and the plaintiffs.

    The Constitution only guarantees due process, which we will get at trial.

    Even if we had summary judgment, I guarantee you that the Republican 6th Circuit would have slapped it down. They would have remanded it for trial, which would have just delayed the case by months.

    That being said, there is little to worry about. The judge in this case actually asked the plaintiffs to sue for marriage. The case was originally only over adoption.
    Last edited by Alnitak; October 16th, 2013 at 08:03 PM.

  2. #52
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Odd -- I can't find anything about it on the local ABC station's website. There's a piece about the lawsuit filed in Eugene, is all.

    But I heard a bit on the radio that sheds light: apparently the governor ordered that marriages from other states be accepted, but one of the couples in the suit was married in Vancouver, B.C., so theirs isn't recognized. Sounds to me like they have a serious complaint.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #53
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    By the end of the month,I feel we will have marriage equality in HI and NM,thus bringing the number of states with marriage equality to 15.

  4. #54
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    thus bringing the number of states with marriage equality to 15.
    If that happens that will bring us to 30% of states allowing gay marriage. 10 more still to go just to get to 50% which is roughly the percentage of people who believe there should be marriage equality. So what year/time frame do you guys think it will take for us to get 25 out of 50 states supporting and passing marriage equality? I'm going to guess it will take till 2018. That would be two new states each year for the next 5. Just kinda of random but if HI and NM do this year that is two and I'm hopeful we could keep that trend up at the minimum!
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  5. #55
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorndogPaul View Post
    If that happens that will bring us to 30% of states allowing gay marriage. 10 more still to go just to get to 50% which is roughly the percentage of people who believe there should be marriage equality. So what year/time frame do you guys think it will take for us to get 25 out of 50 states supporting and passing marriage equality? I'm going to guess it will take till 2018. That would be two new states each year for the next 5. Just kinda of random but if HI and NM do this year that is two and I'm hopeful we could keep that trend up at the minimum!
    I would like to hold the hope that reciprocity of marriage laws in other states as a precedence will allow a supreme court win before 2018 that would make marriage equal across the country. Once all of these red states have to accept the marriage and provide benefits then they will be clamoring to have the marriage inside their borders along with the associated license fee and economic improvement associated with the marriage industry.

    I like to think that but realize the self-proclaimed religious zealots that oppose gay marriage are rarely associated with rational thought.
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  6. #56

    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    By the end of the month,I feel we will have marriage equality in HI and NM,thus bringing the number of states with marriage equality to 15.
    NJ as well assuming the state supreme court doesn't issue a stay, which I think is likely.

  7. #57

    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Based on how long it takes cases to mature, the Supreme Court is likely to hear the cases in 2016 or 2017. I'd say if they hear and decide before the 2016 elections we'll have 20 states with marriage, while waiting until 2017 will likely then give us 25.

  8. #58
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorndogPaul View Post
    If that happens that will bring us to 30% of states allowing gay marriage. 10 more still to go just to get to 50% which is roughly the percentage of people who believe there should be marriage equality. So what year/time frame do you guys think it will take for us to get 25 out of 50 states supporting and passing marriage equality? I'm going to guess it will take till 2018. That would be two new states each year for the next 5. Just kinda of random but if HI and NM do this year that is two and I'm hopeful we could keep that trend up at the minimum!
    The route to 25 states takes us through amendment campaigns in 2016. The must haves will be amendment repeals in Michigan, Ohio, and Arizona, and at least one federal lawsuit, maybe Pennsylvania or Virginia.

    The Nevada case Sevcik v. Sandoval is already at the 9th Circuit, so it's guaranteed to hit the Supreme Court in two years, which could of course close the whole debate, or just leave us with another state.

  9. #59

    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The route to 25 states takes us through amendment campaigns in 2016. The must haves will be amendment repeals in Michigan, Ohio, and Arizona, and at least one federal lawsuit, maybe Pennsylvania or Virginia.

    The Nevada case Sevcik v. Sandoval is already at the 9th Circuit, so it's guaranteed to hit the Supreme Court in two years, which could of course close the whole debate, or just leave us with another state.
    The Supreme Court could also hold off and wait for other circuit courts to rule on the issue in order to get more record on the issue. Also in Pennsylvania there is a case pending in the state court as well.

  10. #60
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    The Supreme Court could also hold off and wait for other circuit courts to rule on the issue in order to get more record on the issue. Also in Pennsylvania there is a case pending in the state court as well.
    That's what I expect. It will make far more sense to bundle several cases. I really don't expect SCOTUS to tackle this before 2016, unless it's another case it can rule on in a very narrow fashion.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #61

    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's what I expect. It will make far more sense to bundle several cases. I really don't expect SCOTUS to tackle this before 2016, unless it's another case it can rule on in a very narrow fashion.
    Yah it'll be interesting to see how they handle Sevik v Sandoval. With Pennsylvania I expect the state supreme court to resolve it before the federal courts do as there are only two steps in the court system there (commonwealth court and supreme court), plus the county clerk case is already in the appeals process.

    Tomorrow we will find out if the NJ Supreme Court issues a stay of the ruling. Big plans are already being made for Monday so something's telling me speculation is that a stay will not be issued.

  12. #62
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's what I expect. It will make far more sense to bundle several cases. I really don't expect SCOTUS to tackle this before 2016, unless it's another case it can rule on in a very narrow fashion.
    The ideal would be after the 2016 election, when several middle ground states will repeal their amendments. That would signal to Ginsburg that the time is right and the issue is more or less over in most of the country.

    However, several cases are now racing towards the Supreme Court that will there before the October 2016 term. Scream mentioned the Nevada case, which could get to the Supreme Court next year. There is also Bostic v. McDonnell in Virginia, which will be wrapped up quickly in the fastest federal trial court in the nation. It actually has a nickname - the "rocket docket."

    Legal variables can have a large range of possibilities. As you mentioned, we could just get more narrow rulings, or the Supreme Court could just hold them. That leaves us time to get the ground ready for a final victory in June 2017.

  13. #63
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    BREAKING: NJ Supreme Court denies stay. Marriage licenses to be issued on Monday at 12:01 a.m.

    http://action.njum.org/page/speakout/staydenied

  14. #64
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    I had this discussion yesterday with a coworker talking about gay marriage by state. I would honestly think that a state with gay marriage would not vote for a Republican President [barring a "Dukakis Democrat"]. So if you look at the states that already allow gay marriage...

    http://www.270towin.com/2016_election_predictions.php?mapid=bDSt]Gay Marriage Electoral Votes[/url]

    That's already 175 Electoral votes locked up for the Democrats. That number will only get bigger when states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Oregon and Hawaii allow gay marriage in the very near future. The more the GOP tries to stop gay marriage, the worse off they'll be.

  15. #65
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Booker, currently serving as mayor of Newark, will conduct weddings in the first floor rotunda of City Hall after the clock strikes midnight. According to BuzzFeed, at least 10 couples and their families expected to attend the early Monday morning event.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4121997.html

  16. #66
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Great news for my home state of New Jersey!
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  17. #67
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Oh, so I wonder if now one of his kids came out as gay, Chris Christie would "hug them tight and tell them he loves them but that daddy believes marriage to be between one man and one woman", but then add awkwardly "but the courts overruled me, so you can get married"?

    Fucking Hutt...
    Last edited by Rolyo85; October 18th, 2013 at 01:48 PM.
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  18. #68
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    New Mexico may happen next week. The state Supreme Court is supposed to hear arguments for it next Wednesday and could issue a ruling immediately.

  19. #69
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Oh, so I wonder if now one of his kids came out as gay, Chris Christie would "hug them tight and tell them he loves them but that daddy believes marriage to be between one man and one woman", but then add awkwardly "but the courts overruled me, so you can get married"...

    Fucking Hutt...

    Reagan was the first governor to legalize abortion and no-fault divorce, but in today's GOP it is impossible to have a liberal past on social issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    New Mexico may happen next week. The state Supreme Court is supposed to hear arguments for it next Wednesday and could issue a ruling immediately.
    Possible, but ruling from the bench on a weighty issue is very rare. A high court has never done it on a gay rights case as far as I know.
    Last edited by Alnitak; October 18th, 2013 at 01:49 PM.

  20. #70
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The ideal would be after the 2016 election, when several middle ground states will repeal their amendments. That would signal to Ginsburg that the time is right and the issue is more or less over in most of the country.

    However, several cases are now racing towards the Supreme Court that will there before the October 2016 term. Scream mentioned the Nevada case, which could get to the Supreme Court next year. There is also Bostic v. McDonnell in Virginia, which will be wrapped up quickly in the fastest federal trial court in the nation. It actually has a nickname - the "rocket docket."

    Legal variables can have a large range of possibilities. As you mentioned, we could just get more narrow rulings, or the Supreme Court could just hold them. That leaves us time to get the ground ready for a final victory in June 2017.
    The Court can always let cases simmer until they're ready to deal with them, and I expect them to do so in order to hear several related cases at once. In some ways, a ruling pertaining to multiple cases at once is stronger, and if they have any wisdom at all among them, they'll go that route.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #71
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post

    Reagan was the first governor to legalize abortion and no-fault divorce, but in today's GOP it is impossible to have a liberal past on social issues.
    If the fat fuck wants to lead, maybe he should have taken a risk and started with his own party.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Because of a previous state lawsuit,the NJ Supreme Court ordered that gay and lesbian couples be provided marriage or something equal that would provide all the protections of marriage,thus the civil unions.
    But even before the DOMA ruling,it had become clear seperate and equal wasn't,Section 3 of DOMA simply drove it home.
    Bottom line,NJ is going to be the 14th state to have marriage equality,something long overdue.

  23. #73
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Michigan is having the case go to trial.

    Which is actually fine, because the LGBT couple will win.


    That trial begins in February 2014. That may seem a long way; but it's not.


    Mich. Atty. Gen. Bill Schuette, a Republican, is doing his usual politics about there to be no marriage licenses granted during the interim. That was from a spokesperson. But I wouldn't bet either way on cooperation.

    Michigan has a gubernatorial election next year. We'll find out how smart Republican politicians are at pretending they're so opposed. (Behind the scenes: they don't actually care; they care about their electoral power.)


    As a lifelong resident of Mich., I can say that I want this state to jump ahead of many in the chronological order of states recognizing marriage equality. That isn't truly what's important. What is necessary is that all states plus District of Columbia enforce everyone's Bill of Rights and that the LGBT community will have their same-sex marriages legally recognized throughout this nation. The U.S. Supreme Court's decision, from this past June, is instrumental in getting this to happen.
    Last edited by CoolBlue71; October 19th, 2013 at 04:30 AM.

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    JUB Addict CoolBlue71's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Judge sets February trial for challenge to Michigan's gay marriage ban

    By Tresa Baldas and Jim Schaefer
    Oct. 16, 2013 | http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2013310160031

    Michigan’s ban on same-sex marriage will remain in place for now after a federal judge opted not to rule on the issue today and instead hold a trial in February — a decision that dashed the hopes of dozens of couples waiting at local clerks’ offices with plans to wed that day if the ban was lifted.

    “I wish I could sit here today and give you a definitive ruling,” U.S. District Judge Bernard Friedman said in a courtroom packed with nearly 100 gay rights supporters. “There are issues that have to be decided. ... I am in the middle. I have to decide this as a matter of law.”

    It’s a decision weighing heavily on Friedman.

    “I’m a little nervous,” Friedman admitted in court. “I’ve never had a case like this before.”

  25. #75
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    I think Hawaii will be the next state to legalize gay marriage. Yes the Mormons are fighting too and nail there but I stand by my feelings that unlike NY and IL,this is a special session and they wouldn't have called it if they didn't have the votes.
    As for NJ, a veto override is fine but unlike other places,I'm not worried about the NJ Supreme Court reversing itself.
    The 2006 case has made that impossible.

  26. #76
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Watch the first same sex marriage in New Jersey in 15 minutes.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livenow?id=9294563

  27. #77
    Sex God AstareGod's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Thanks for the link, Matt. I'm watching live, now. This is a very beautiful thing to witness live. Congrats to all the newlyweds in NJ tonight!!!
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  28. #78
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Got home late from work but looking online as well and am very happy with my home state of New Jersey. An override by the state legislature of the unfortunate veto by Governor Christie will be icing on the wedding cake.
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  29. #79
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    NBC News:

    BREAKING: New Jersey Governor Chris Christie withdraws appeal on same-sex marriage

  30. #80
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    I love this thread. JockBoy87's original was much more involved with his input but I love to read the opinions and updates I may have missed from different parts of the country. Thanks to everyone who posts and keep the info flowing.

    The singular case in Ohio where a partner is fighting for his right to be buried with his husband is another situation that gives me hope for Ohio and change in my home state.

    Still the legal acceptance of gay marriage will have to come via courts. Here in Kansas and Missouri, plus a good deal of the southern states would never accept anything like that on their own.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  31. #81
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    NBC News:
    Also, very likely State New Jersey legislature overrides Gov. Christie's veto of marriage equality legislation. As wrongheaded as Christie was about the veto, he's not ever been really compatible with hard line social conservatives. He did support the civil unions legislation previously past, but hasn't evolved to an outright supporter of marriage equality though he has stated the issue should go to New Jersey voters and he would abide by a yes vote. It appears now though with court proceedings and the likelihood of an override that marriage equality has indeed come to New Jersey, thankfully.
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  32. #82
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    So Christie has thrown in the towel. As always a political move...

    Don't miss what's coming up next.

    • The veto session begins in Illinois tomorrow and lasts until November 7. There will be a rally in Springfield tomorrow to show support for marriage equality.
    • The Supreme Court of New Mexico will hear oral arguments in re Association of Counties on Wednesday.
    • Hawaii will hold a special session beginning Monday next week. They are expected to take a few days to pass marriage equality.
    Last edited by Alnitak; October 21st, 2013 at 08:00 AM.

  33. #83
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    NCLR has filed a new lawsuit on behalf of four couples in Tennessee. This is now the twentieth state with a legal challenge to discriminatory marriage laws. A full case list is regularly updated by marriageequality.org

    This new lawsuit is in addition to Howe v. Haslam, which challenges HB 600- Tennessee's ban on anti-discrimination laws. That suit has been languishing in state trial court since June 2011, but is on track for resolution.

  34. #84
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    What is the chance that the actual vote for Illinois happens tomorrow?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    What is the chance that the actual vote for Illinois happens tomorrow?
    Nobody knows because the leadership has always been tightlipped on progress. Scream thinks that the effort is poorly organized.

    Are you going to the rally in Springfield tomorrow?

  36. #86
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Australia's capital territory just passed a marriage equality bill, the first for any state or territory.

    The ACT law must survive a court challenge however.

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-...022-2vy5o.html

  37. #87
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Nobody knows because the leadership has always been tightlipped on progress. Scream thinks that the effort is poorly organized.

    Are you going to the rally in Springfield tomorrow?
    Can't. I have a full day of work and school ;_; Starting at 7 am and ending at midnight...
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  38. #88
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Here's hoping Illinois will do the right thing and become number 15 (or 16) for marriage equality.

  39. #89
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Here's hoping Illinois will do the right thing and become number 15 (or 16) for marriage equality.
    Scream sent me a good link to the best information about each House member.

    All of the tossups are in low numbered districts, which are north and closer to Chicago. That's a good sign. According to Windy City's numbers we only need half of the undecideds.

    http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/l...ty-/44813.html

    I am reminded of the situation in my own state. The House vote in Maryland was just as uncertain and just as close, but we barely prevailed on the floor due to unexpected support.

  40. #90

    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Some of the names on the undecided list are also considered lean Yes from other sources. Rita Mayfield is one that comes to mind. Should they delay the vote until January it will mean that the law will come into effect sooner (30 days vs 6 months).

  41. #91
    JUB Addict chrisrobin's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    .
    Not to decide is to decide.

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

  42. #92

    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    It's looks like they're eyeing for a vote on the final day of the session:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/tonymerevick...-illinois-capi

    I wonder if they anticipate they will have 71 votes to allow it to go into law unamended and thus not need to be voted on again in the Senate.

  43. #93
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    It's looks like they're eyeing for a vote on the final day of the session:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/tonymerevick...-illinois-capi

    I wonder if they anticipate they will have 71 votes to allow it to go into law unamended and thus not need to be voted on again in the Senate.
    The article says that allows little time for challengers to crop up.

    Fine. Let's have a vote and if it fails we'll launch primary challenges of our own!

  44. #94
    JUB Addict chrisrobin's Avatar
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The article says that allows little time for challengers to crop up.

    Fine. Let's have a vote and if it fails we'll launch primary challenges of our own!
    Today, the "true believers" are descending on Springfield. I can almost see the halos from my back porch.

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Today, the "true believers" are descending on Springfield. I can almost see the halos from my back porch.
    The crowds are always smaller and getting smaller.

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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    On a different note,I followed the gay marriage hearing at the New Mexico Supreme Court. I'm not sure when they will issue a ruling but when they do,it's going to be in our favor.
    Every single argument the anti-gay side tried to make got shot down in flames.
    Bottom line,I'm not sure what number it will be but New Mexico will have marriage equality very soon.
    Last edited by Ninja108; October 23rd, 2013 at 10:44 AM.

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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    On a different note,I followed the gay marriage hearing at the New Mexico Supreme Court. I'm not sure when they will issue a ruling but when they do,it's going to be in our favor.
    Every single argument the anti-gay side tried to make got shot down in flames.
    Bottom line,I'm not sure what number it will be but New Mexico will have marriage equality very soon.
    Two arguments are going to win it for us in New Mexico:

    1) Children of unwed parents have the same rights as those who are married.

    and

    2) there is no legal distinction between husbands and wives.

    The fact that the legislature declined to including gender or children in the definition of New Mexico's marriage statute means that gender and children are not part of the definition of marriage. I don't think the court will even need to address the constitutional issues. This is simply a matter of best law and best interpretation of the statutes.

  48. #98
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The crowds are always smaller and getting smaller.
    I hope this is a good sign. We have history on our side. They don't.

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

  49. #99
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    Re: What is new on the Gay Marriage front?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    I hope this is a good sign. We have history on our side. They don't.
    Reports said our rally was 10x the size.

  50. #100
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post

    Reports said our rally was 10x the size.
    And they spinner it as "we attracted more citizens, they attracted more media."
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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