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  1. #1

    Christians: Did God make us gay?

    This is just something I've always wondered about. I know there is a lot of "the bible says being gay is a sin" and blah blah blah but I know that God loves me and I love him. I believe God created me and every one of us, but when it comes to being gay I've always wondered if it was Gods doing. Idk...I'm trying to explain things too much, the question itself is pretty self explanatory.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    That's almost like asking...did God create man...OR... did man create God?
    Nowhere in the Bible are the words "gay or homosexual" used. Most of the "abomination" references that wingnuts like to throw around are taken out of context, mostly from parables, and have no basis for anything. Religious extremists love using the Bible to validate their hatred. They used to do it to validate their hatred for people of color and tried using it again to make women inferior and subservient to men. Now they use it on the gays. Bigotry wrapped in a prayer is still bigotry.

    Yet they will never talk about heterosexual issues that the Bible also addresses.....

    Marriage shall be considered on if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she will be executed. (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

    Oh and lets not forget banning Divorce! Jesus did object (Mark 10:11)



    One nation under God doesn't mean one nation under Christianity.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Jayden, first I need to make a correction. The Holy Scriptures do NOT state being gay is a sin. Some of man's interpretations of the Holy Scripture do say being gay is a sin, which is erroneous.

    Back during the biblical days, sex was used to worship pagan gods. Male temple prostitutes were used in this worship. Having sex with these male temple prostitutes was an act of worshiping a pagan god, in other words, it was idol worshiping. God told us not to worship other gods. The interpreters misinterpreted this to mean men shall not have sex with other men.

    To answer your question, all things that are made are made by God. I am a gay man. This is how God made me. The Bible tells us "Whatsoever God hath made, let no man call unclean." Therefore, there is no sin in being gay.

    Here are some references which I hope will help you.

    Homosexuality and the Bible

    Christianity and Homosexuality Reconciled

    Homophobia kills!

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Of course God created gay people! He created Adam, then Eve, then he told himself "I can do a bit better", so he made gay people on that Sunday. I know religious people say that he rested on the seventh day, what they don't tell you is that he was not resting he was just having a great time making gay people. And that is why Sundays are so fabulous.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    It wasn't God who made us gay but nature. It is simply a survival mechanic to keep the numbers down (earth's population expanded seven-fold in 100 years). Everything else, including love, affection and partnership, is merely social conduct.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    These answers are said to have been provided by school children in response to questions raised in a religious education class. I doubt the veracity of this statement but I believe that the answers are worth reading if only for entertainment value:


    1. IN THE FIRST BOOK OF THE BIBLE, GUINESSIS. GOD GOT TIRED OF CREATING THE WORLD SO HE TOOK THE SABBATH OFF.

    2. ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED FROM AN APPLE TREE. NOAH'S WIFE WAS JOAN OF ARK. NOAH BUILT AND ARK AND THE ANIMALS CAME ON IN PEARS.


    4. THE JEWS WERE A PROUD PEOPLE AND THROUGHOUT HISTORY THEY HAD TROUBLE WITH UNSYMPATHETIC GENITALS.

    5. SAMPSON WAS A STRONGMAN WHO LET HIMSELF BE LED ASTRAY BY A JEZEBEL LIKE DELILAH.

    6. SAMSON SLAYED THE PHILISTINES WITH THE AXE OF THE APOSTLES.

    7. MOSES LED THE JEWS TO THE RED SEA WHERE THEY MADE UNLEAVENED BREAD, WHICH IS BREAD WITHOUT ANY INGREDIENTS.

    8. THE EGYPTIANS WERE ALL DROWNED IN THE DESSERT. AFTERWARDS, MOSES WENT UP TO MOUNTCYANIDE TO GET THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

    9. THE FIRST COMMANDMENTS WAS WHEN EVE TOLD ADAM TO EAT THE APPLE.

    10. THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT IS THOU SHALT NOT ADMIT ADULTERY.

    11. MOSES DIED BEFORE HE EVER REACHED CANADA THEN JOSHUA LED THE HEBREWS IN THE BATTLE OF GERITOL.

    12. THE GREATEST MIRICLE IN THE BIBLE IS WHEN JOSHUA TOLD HIS SON TO STAND STILL AND HE OBEYED HIM.

    13. DAVID WAS A HEBREW KING WHO WAS SKILLED AT PLAYING THE LIAR. HE FOUGHT THE FINKELSTEINS, A RACE OF PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN BIBLICAL TIMES.

    14. SOLOMON, ONE OF DAVIDS SONS, HAD 300 WIVES AND 700 PORCUPINES.

    15. WHEN MARY HEARD SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF JESUS, SHE SANG THE MAGNA CARTA.

    16. WHEN THE THREE WISE GUYS FROM THE EAST SIDE ARRIVED THEY FOUND JESUS IN THE MANAGER.

    17. JESUS WAS BORN BECAUSE MARY HAD AN IMMACULATE CONTRAPTION.

    18. ST. JOHN THE BLACKSMITH DUMPED WATER ON HIS HEAD.

    19. JESUS ENUNCIATED THE GOLDEN RULE, WHICH SAYS TO DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO ONE TO YOU. HE ALSO EXPLAINED A MAN DOTH NOT LIVE BY SWEAT ALONE.

    20. IT WAS A MIRICLE WHEN JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND MANAGED TO GET THE TOMBSTONE OFF THE ENTRANCE.

    21. THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED THE LORD WERE CALLED THE 12 DECIBELS.

    22. THE EPISTELS WERE THE WIVES OF THE APOSTLES.

    23. ONE OF THE OPPOSSUMS WAS ST. MATTHEW WHO WAS ALSO A TAXIMAN.

    24. ST. PAUL CAVORTED TO CHRISTIANITY, HE PREACHED HOLY ACRIMONY, WHICH IS ANOTHER NAME FOR MARRIAGE.

    25. CHRISTIANS HAVE ONLY ONE SPOUSE. THIS IS CALLED MONOTONY.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    It wasn't God who made us gay but nature. It is simply a survival mechanic to keep the numbers down (earth's population expanded seven-fold in 100 years). Everything else, including love, affection and partnership, is merely social conduct.
    If it were a survival mechanism, there would have been very few gay people in the past and a lot more now. As something for controlling the population, it's falling far short of being effective.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    I can argue the issue from either side -- or both.

    Very basically, on the one hand, God made mankind male and female, without confusion, and that's the way things were to be. So in what some theologians call His ideal will, there would never have been any variation from pure male and pure female. But on the other hand, since the beginning things have deteriorated, leading to unintended variation that has given us homosexuality and more -- yet God allowed this, and since nothing is made apart from Him, He is in fact making people gay ~ not according to His ideal will, but according to His permissive will.

    At the moment the second argument seems most persuasive, and I would have to answer "Yes, God made us gay; for had He not, we wouldn't be that way".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    There can be so many different theories as to how we are Gay, and I'll add just one more theory to the list.....It is quite possible that our being Gay is either a direct or indirect result of, or due to the residue of Original Sin, a genetic mutation if you will. Therefore, we are gay by no fault of our own. I have yet to get this theory checked with my Bishop, and maybe talk to a Biological Scientist, or who ever deals with Human Genetics.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    There can be so many different theories as to how we are Gay, and I'll add just one more theory to the list.....It is quite possible that our being Gay is either a direct or indirect result of, or due to the residue of Original Sin, a genetic mutation if you will. Therefore, we are gay by no fault of our own. I have yet to get this theory checked with my Bishop, and maybe talk to a Biological Scientist, or who ever deals with Human Genetics.
    What does any "fault of our own" have to do with it? Do you think being gay is some kind of punishment for something????

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What does any "fault of our own" have to do with it? Do you think being gay is some kind of punishment for something????
    Remember, I was talking about being a theory, not a fact. All things considered; Look at it this way; through the fall of Adam and Eve (Original Sin), Mankind is tainted, tinkered, tampered with, and whatever else you can think of...ie; damaged by the Evil one, and because of the tampering, we are not the ones at fault for who/what we are. But, we cannot act on it, as it will look like the Evil one has won, and he will seriously tempt us to act on it. Being Gay in and of itself is not the Sin, and Temptation is not a Sin. The Sin is in the action, the choice to act on it.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Remember, I was talking about being a theory, not a fact. All things considered; Look at it this way; through the fall of Adam and Eve (Original Sin), Mankind is tainted, tinkered, tampered with, and whatever else you can think of...ie; damaged by the Evil one, and because of the tampering, we are not the ones at fault for who/what we are. But, we cannot act on it, as it will look like the Evil one has won, and he will seriously tempt us to act on it. Being Gay in and of itself is not the Sin, and Temptation is not a Sin. The Sin is in the action, the choice to act on it.
    And why is "the choice to act on it" a sin?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #13

    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Remember, I was talking about being a theory, not a fact. All things considered; Look at it this way; through the fall of Adam and Eve (Original Sin), Mankind is tainted, tinkered, tampered with, and whatever else you can think of...ie; damaged by the Evil one, and because of the tampering, we are not the ones at fault for who/what we are. But, we cannot act on it, as it will look like the Evil one has won, and he will seriously tempt us to act on it. Being Gay in and of itself is not the Sin, and Temptation is not a Sin. The Sin is in the action, the choice to act on it.
    hmmm, now how do you know the writers of this myth weren't the real evil ones?

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post

    Being Gay in and of itself is not the Sin, and Temptation is not a Sin. The Sin is in the action, the choice to act on it.
    It is said that our actions betray our intentions especially when our intention is to commit evil...

    ....in the case of loving relationships with other men I can state categorically that my experiences are loving .......therefore, never evil.

  15. #15

    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    It is said that our actions betray our intentions especially when our intention is to commit evil...

    ....in the case of loving relationships with other men I can state categorically that my experiences are loving .......therefore, never evil.
    so are you saying 'lust' is evil?

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    so are you saying 'lust' is evil?
    Yes, Lust is evil. Many Gay Men are giving terrible examples to the Gay haters, as they think that everyone of us are promiscuous, going from one sexual partner after another one, instead of sticking to the one person. Yes, our hormones do rage, and yes, we do have the intelligence to control ourselves. We are not like the Animal Kingdom where they have no sense of Morals. As Human beings, we are intellectually far above the Animals, though not Angels either. Mankind, since the Fall, has a far greater compacity for Great Good or for Great Evil.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Yes, Lust is evil. Many Gay Men are giving terrible examples to the Gay haters, as they think that everyone of us are promiscuous, going from one sexual partner after another one, instead of sticking to the one person. Yes, our hormones do rage, and yes, we do have the intelligence to control ourselves. We are not like the Animal Kingdom where they have no sense of Morals. As Human beings, we are intellectually far above the Animals, though not Angels either. Mankind, since the Fall, has a far greater compacity for Great Good or for Great Evil.
    Altruism and morality have been observed in many different animal species, most notably those species that operate within a social construct. It is evolutionarily advantageous to have a sense of morality within a social species. Our morality, just like those of other animals, is the product of having evolved as a social species.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    These answers are said to have been provided by school children in response to questions raised in a religious education class. I doubt the veracity of this statement but I believe that the answers are worth reading if only for entertainment value:


    1. IN THE FIRST BOOK OF THE BIBLE, GUINESSIS. GOD GOT TIRED OF CREATING THE WORLD SO HE TOOK THE SABBATH OFF.

    2. ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED FROM AN APPLE TREE. NOAH'S WIFE WAS JOAN OF ARK. NOAH BUILT AND ARK AND THE ANIMALS CAME ON IN PEARS.


    4. THE JEWS WERE A PROUD PEOPLE AND THROUGHOUT HISTORY THEY HAD TROUBLE WITH UNSYMPATHETIC GENITALS.

    5. SAMPSON WAS A STRONGMAN WHO LET HIMSELF BE LED ASTRAY BY A JEZEBEL LIKE DELILAH.

    6. SAMSON SLAYED THE PHILISTINES WITH THE AXE OF THE APOSTLES.

    7. MOSES LED THE JEWS TO THE RED SEA WHERE THEY MADE UNLEAVENED BREAD, WHICH IS BREAD WITHOUT ANY INGREDIENTS.

    8. THE EGYPTIANS WERE ALL DROWNED IN THE DESSERT. AFTERWARDS, MOSES WENT UP TO MOUNTCYANIDE TO GET THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

    9. THE FIRST COMMANDMENTS WAS WHEN EVE TOLD ADAM TO EAT THE APPLE.

    10. THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT IS THOU SHALT NOT ADMIT ADULTERY.

    11. MOSES DIED BEFORE HE EVER REACHED CANADA THEN JOSHUA LED THE HEBREWS IN THE BATTLE OF GERITOL.

    12. THE GREATEST MIRICLE IN THE BIBLE IS WHEN JOSHUA TOLD HIS SON TO STAND STILL AND HE OBEYED HIM.

    13. DAVID WAS A HEBREW KING WHO WAS SKILLED AT PLAYING THE LIAR. HE FOUGHT THE FINKELSTEINS, A RACE OF PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN BIBLICAL TIMES.

    14. SOLOMON, ONE OF DAVIDS SONS, HAD 300 WIVES AND 700 PORCUPINES.

    15. WHEN MARY HEARD SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF JESUS, SHE SANG THE MAGNA CARTA.

    16. WHEN THE THREE WISE GUYS FROM THE EAST SIDE ARRIVED THEY FOUND JESUS IN THE MANAGER.

    17. JESUS WAS BORN BECAUSE MARY HAD AN IMMACULATE CONTRAPTION.

    18. ST. JOHN THE BLACKSMITH DUMPED WATER ON HIS HEAD.

    19. JESUS ENUNCIATED THE GOLDEN RULE, WHICH SAYS TO DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO ONE TO YOU. HE ALSO EXPLAINED A MAN DOTH NOT LIVE BY SWEAT ALONE.

    20. IT WAS A MIRICLE WHEN JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND MANAGED TO GET THE TOMBSTONE OFF THE ENTRANCE.

    21. THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED THE LORD WERE CALLED THE 12 DECIBELS.

    22. THE EPISTELS WERE THE WIVES OF THE APOSTLES.

    23. ONE OF THE OPPOSSUMS WAS ST. MATTHEW WHO WAS ALSO A TAXIMAN.

    24. ST. PAUL CAVORTED TO CHRISTIANITY, HE PREACHED HOLY ACRIMONY, WHICH IS ANOTHER NAME FOR MARRIAGE.

    25. CHRISTIANS HAVE ONLY ONE SPOUSE. THIS IS CALLED MONOTONY.
    When it comes to your ponderings I have learned to defer to kallipolis. I take no self-will position.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbamike View Post
    Jayden, first I need to make a correction. The Holy Scriptures do NOT state being gay is a sin. Some of man's interpretations of the Holy Scripture do say being gay is a sin, which is erroneous.

    Back during the biblical days, sex was used to worship pagan gods. Male temple prostitutes were used in this worship. Having sex with these male temple prostitutes was an act of worshiping a pagan god, in other words, it was idol worshiping. God told us not to worship other gods. The interpreters misinterpreted this to mean men shall not have sex with other men.

    To answer your question, all things that are made are made by God. I am a gay man. This is how God made me. The Bible tells us "Whatsoever God hath made, let no man call unclean." Therefore, there is no sin in being gay.

    Here are some references which I hope will help you.

    Homosexuality and the Bible

    Christianity and Homosexuality Reconciled
    And again even if you are able to reconcile the anti homosexual parts of the Bible as "forbidding the worship of Pagan Gods" this still is evil as it is against religious freedom and the ability to worship whatever god you wish. Also there is nothing wrong with using sex as an act of worship either so long as everyone consents and it certainly beats the violent sacrifices and killing of disbelievers in the Bible.

    As for the Torah, Bible and Quran all of these books condemn homosexuality. They do not view it as an inborn thing either. These books condemn homosexuality precisely as a tool for social control. They for one wanted to keep women pregnant and birthing children to fight against disbelievers but they also saw homosexuality as "feminizing men" to which in their patriarchal culture for a man to be feminine made him less then and was considered degrading himself.

    The Bible, Torah and Quran are simply put wrong on homosexuality. We know that homosexuality is quite natural, found in all species and is inborn. These books are wrong about this as they are on the status of women, the shape of the Earth, how life started etc. It is a foolish book made by uninformed Hebrews who tried to make their religion turn from polytheism to monotheism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    There can be so many different theories as to how we are Gay, and I'll add just one more theory to the list.....It is quite possible that our being Gay is either a direct or indirect result of, or due to the residue of Original Sin, a genetic mutation if you will. Therefore, we are gay by no fault of our own. I have yet to get this theory checked with my Bishop, and maybe talk to a Biological Scientist, or who ever deals with Human Genetics.
    There is no Original Sin. This is an evil idea of Christianity that has that we are all cursed not for sins we committed but for sins our ancestors did and we must suffer as a collective.

    Further more science does not recognize Original Sin. It states that homosexuality comes from nature and is mainly used to prevent overpopulation. Original Sin is a monstrous lie made by evil men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Remember, I was talking about being a theory, not a fact. All things considered; Look at it this way; through the fall of Adam and Eve (Original Sin), Mankind is tainted, tinkered, tampered with, and whatever else you can think of...ie; damaged by the Evil one, and because of the tampering, we are not the ones at fault for who/what we are. But, we cannot act on it, as it will look like the Evil one has won, and he will seriously tempt us to act on it. Being Gay in and of itself is not the Sin, and Temptation is not a Sin. The Sin is in the action, the choice to act on it.
    And again this shows the evil of your religion. The idea that gays must be celibate and live lives of romantic and sexual deprivation. Any psychologist will tell you that sexual deprivation is not psychologically healthy for anyone. We are sexual creatures and have a right to express our sexuality with whom ever we please. Nor are we cursed to be "tainted" for the sins of our ancestors. It is no wonder that Christians think that all of humanity shares the guilt of our ancestors that they can reconciled such evil ideas as both genocide in the Bible as well as genocide outside of it. For if we are all culpable for the sin's of two imaginary people of whom science and history has denounced their existence. Why can't we be comfortable with certain ethnic groups all being guilty based on the sins of a few people.
    Last edited by Mariatenebre; September 1st, 2013 at 05:32 PM.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Yes, Lust is evil. Many Gay Men are giving terrible examples to the Gay haters, as they think that everyone of us are promiscuous, going from one sexual partner after another one, instead of sticking to the one person. Yes, our hormones do rage, and yes, we do have the intelligence to control ourselves. We are not like the Animal Kingdom where they have no sense of Morals. As Human beings, we are intellectually far above the Animals, though not Angels either. Mankind, since the Fall, has a far greater compacity for Great Good or for Great Evil.
    Lust is not evil. Sexual attraction is a very good thing as any scientist will tell you. Without lust or sexual desire no species would exist because copulation would not exist. Also many animals have their own morals. They have certain actions which is frowned upon in their particular communities. What you also forget is that we are animals according to science so many of the same rules apply to us. It is fascinating that you say that lust is evil while posting on a gay porn site. Hypocrisy much? There is no reason for us to deny our sexuality or not have sex with who ever we please so long as we do it safely. Also you contradict yourself. At one point you say that gays must life lives of sexual and romantic deprivation and now you say that so long as gays are intimate with one person in a monogamous relationship then this is fine. I think you need to make up your mind.

    I would like to post this excellent writing by the Atheist philosopher Ayn Rand. Of which accurately describes the evil of Original Sin.
    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/original_sin.html

    Of which to me Original Sin is nothing more then universal racism or the notion that a we are judged not as individuals but by the actions of our ancestors. Of which if you can damn the whole of humanity as being tainted for our ancestors actions then is it really that far of a logical leap to blame a whole ethnicity or race for the sins of their ancestors or a few members of their group. I suppose this is why the genocides in the Bible make perfect sense to Abrahamics and their deranged form of collective reward and collective guilt.
    Last edited by Mariatenebre; September 1st, 2013 at 05:41 PM.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    Lust is not evil. Sexual attraction is a very good thing as any scientist will tell you. Without lust or sexual desire no species would exist because copulation would not exist. Also many animals have their own morals. They have certain actions which is frowned upon in their particular communities. What you also forget is that we are animals according to science so many of the same rules apply to us. It is fascinating that you say that lust is evil while posting on a gay porn site. Hypocrisy much? There is no reason for us to deny our sexuality or not have sex with who ever we please so long as we do it safely. Also you contradict yourself. At one point you say that gays must life lives of sexual and romantic deprivation and now you say that so long as gays are intimate with one person in a monogamous relationship then this is fine. I think you need to make up your mind.

    I would like to post this excellent writing by the Atheist philosopher Ayn Rand. Of which accurately describes the evil of Original Sin.
    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/original_sin.html

    Of which to me Original Sin is nothing more then universal racism or the notion that a we are judged not as individuals but by the actions of our ancestors. Of which if you can damn the whole of humanity as being tainted for our ancestors actions then is it really that far of a logical leap to blame a whole ethnicity or race for the sins of their ancestors or a few members of their group. I suppose this is why the genocides in the Bible make perfect sense to Abrahamics and their deranged form of collective reward and collective guilt.
    OMG! You're a Paul Ryan Supporter!

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Yes, Lust is evil.
    This depends on how you define lust. If you just mean being horny, then lust isn't evil -- it's what you do with the lust.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    OMG! You're a Paul Ryan Supporter!
    Or at least citing Rand's ignorance.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    `



    God made man in his image....
    God is both man & woman....
    and totally Pansexual.



    `

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    so are you saying 'lust' is evil?
    You're referring to thoughts....whereas I speak of actions

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    OMG! You're a Paul Ryan Supporter!
    Why in the world would you think I am a Paul Ryan supporter? Just because I liked some of the things Ayn Rand said. The love affair with the GOP and Ayn Rand is indeed puzzling. Ayn Rand would have most likely hated Paul Ryan. For one Ayn Rand was a Atheist. In order to be apart of her philosophy Objectivism it required one to have no belief in any supernatural thing at all. She frequently denounced faith of any kind as a destroyer of reason and described it as a bad psychological weakness. That it was a man who could not stand on his own mind. She was pro choice and a strong advocate for a woman's right to abortion, which pretty much contradicts Ryan's views. She firmly believed in separation of church and state so the theocrats of the GOP have no similarity with her there. She also rejected altruism which is a key idea of Christianity. The idea that man must sacrifice himself for others. Hell Ryan even got flack for supporting Ayn Rand and her non Christian views so he back tracked and said that he supported Thomas Aquinas more then Ayn Rand.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You're referring to thoughts....whereas I speak of actions
    Jesus set forth that they're a continuum.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Jesus set forth that they're a continuum.
    They can be....but second thoughts, prove that this is not always the case...I've been known to change my mind...what of you?

  29. #29

    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    This depends on how you define lust. If you just mean being horny, then lust isn't evil -- it's what you do with the lust.

    Here's its etymology:



    lust (n.)
    Old English lust "desire, appetite, pleasure," from Proto-Germanic *lustuz (cf. Old Saxon, Old Frisian, Dutch, German lust, Old Norse lyst, Gothic lustus "pleasure, desire, lust"), from PIE *las- "to be eager, wanton, or unruly" (cf. Latin lascivus "wanton, playful, lustful;" see lascivious).

    In Middle English, "any source of pleasure or delight," also "an appetite," also "a liking for a person," also "fertility" (of soil). Sense of "sinful sexual desire, degrading animal passion" (now the main meaning) developed in late Old English from the word's use in Bible translations (e.g. lusts of the flesh to render Latin concupiscentia carnis [I John ii:16]); the cognate words in other Germanic languages tend still to mean simply "pleasure."
    lust (v.) Look up lust at Dictionary.com
    c.1200, "to wish, to desire," from lust (n.) and Old English lystan (see list (v.4)). Sense of "to have a strong sexual desire (for or after)" is first attested 1520s in biblical use. Related: Lusted; lusting.
    Ever lusted after an apple? You are hungry, and thirsty, you look at its full form and blush, and you love it so much you could eat it, and as you first sink your teeth into it you can get this orgasmic thrill (this actually happens to me. I like to eat an apple walking in nature), and you can drool, and you LOVE that apple. Lust and love are interchangeable.

    Where 'lust' becomes divided from 'love' is via Christian puritanism, and its "7 Deadly Sins" guilt-inducing dogma. Of course lust can become evil when you objectify the other. Rape is evil. But you see a Christian won't ever say 'objecification' is evil because this whole sorry culture is based on it and they tend to be conformists and go along with the accepted 'norms' of society. So let us survey The Seven Deadly Sins:

    .1 Lust
    3.2 Gluttony
    3.3 Greed
    3.4 Sloth
    3.5 Wrath
    3.6 Envy
    3.7 Pride

    Out of all of them mr Christian seems only concerned with 'the sins of the flesh'. He rarely has anything to say about the others, and about how they are contributing to the destruction of other species, our own, and planet Earth's ecosystems.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    ^Thoughts that morp into self destructive/destructive behaviour can be understood as part of a process towards self destruction....but thoughts, that are re-thought ensuring that we do not pursue our original intention may well be understood performing an enlightening role that of leading us not to act in a destructive, or self destructive way....thus, it can be argued that so called sinful thoughts can be life affirming when we choose not to implement abusive thoughts into actions.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    There is no god so can not answer that question!

  32. #32

    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambdaboy View Post
    There is no god so can not answer that question!

    ...curious..what IS there? for you. what is deepest mystery for you?

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    Here's its etymology:





    Ever lusted after an apple? You are hungry, and thirsty, you look at its full form and blush, and you love it so much you could eat it, and as you first sink your teeth into it you can get this orgasmic thrill (this actually happens to me. I like to eat an apple walking in nature), and you can drool, and you LOVE that apple. Lust and love are interchangeable.

    Where 'lust' becomes divided from 'love' is via Christian puritanism, and its "7 Deadly Sins" guilt-inducing dogma. Of course lust can become evil when you objectify the other. Rape is evil. But you see a Christian won't ever say 'objecification' is evil because this whole sorry culture is based on it and they tend to be conformists and go along with the accepted 'norms' of society. So let us survey The Seven Deadly Sins:

    .1 Lust
    3.2 Gluttony
    3.3 Greed
    3.4 Sloth
    3.5 Wrath
    3.6 Envy
    3.7 Pride

    Out of all of them mr Christian seems only concerned with 'the sins of the flesh'. He rarely has anything to say about the others, and about how they are contributing to the destruction of other species, our own, and planet Earth's ecosystems.
    That's a nice little excursion, but it doesn't answer my question. It also ignores today's English language, which makes it appear an effort to justify a particular position rather than anything else.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  34. #34

    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Temptation is not a Sin. The Sin is in the action, the choice to act on it.
    I'm curious when and where this often-repeated doctrine arose. It's very common among anti-gay Christians in America today, but of course it directly contradicts Christ's well-known words as recounted in Matthew 5:27-28.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

    This quote raises more conflicts with modern sexual ethics than just the one being discussed in this thread, but I think it unequivocally rules out any possibility for a person who claims to base his morality on the inerrancy of the Bible to argue that a celibate gay man is not actively sinning.

    (To make my own position clear and avoid misunderstanding, I should say that Christ has been the key to my experience of the sacred, but I don't think that the Bible is a magically infallible rulebook.)

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangbad View Post
    I'm curious when and where this often-repeated doctrine arose. It's very common among anti-gay Christians in America today, but of course it directly contradicts Christ's well-known words as recounted in Matthew 5:27-28.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

    This quote raises more conflicts with modern sexual ethics than just the one being discussed in this thread, but I think it unequivocally rules out any possibility for a person who claims to base his morality on the inerrancy of the Bible to argue that a celibate gay man is not actively sinning.

    (To make my own position clear and avoid misunderstanding, I should say that Christ has been the key to my experience of the sacred, but I don't think that the Bible is a magically infallible rulebook.)
    For the first question....see Catechism of the Catholic Church #2357-2359. As for Matthew 5:27-28, 1st off, you can look upon the other person and admire God's Masterpiece of Art, and can do that without LUSTING. If you are looking at the person with thoughts of sexual activity with that person...that is Lusting, and another word that can be used is: fantasize. So, therefore you're half right on the Gospel according to Matthew.

    As for the innerancy/infallibleness of the Bible, you are wrong. The Bible is History, Poetry, drama (negative and positive), you name it, it's all in there. The key to the inerrancy of the Holy Word of God is in the interpretations according to the genre a particular part of the Bible is written, ie; its Literary genres, and there are several genres; History, Prophetic, Poetry (Book of Psalms), the era they were written, Chronological time-line, Archeology, etc. I may also include that there are many translations of the Holy Word of God, and the key to this one is finding which is closest to the Original Transcripts of Scriptures. Think of the Bible as a GUIDE BOOK, not a RULE BOOK.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangbad View Post
    I'm curious when and where this often-repeated doctrine arose. It's very common among anti-gay Christians in America today, but of course it directly contradicts Christ's well-known words as recounted in Matthew 5:27-28.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

    This quote raises more conflicts with modern sexual ethics than just the one being discussed in this thread, but I think it unequivocally rules out any possibility for a person who claims to base his morality on the inerrancy of the Bible to argue that a celibate gay man is not actively sinning.

    (To make my own position clear and avoid misunderstanding, I should say that Christ has been the key to my experience of the sacred, but I don't think that the Bible is a magically infallible rulebook.)
    Your observation speaks much more of an emphasis on sin rather, than on redemption being a process of developing self awareness realised through ones life's experiences teaching each of us how best to learn from life's lessons....thus, "sin" is the awareness that we can redeem our self by correcting that which we believe is a self destructive action...and, "sin" identifies each of us a student learning that we have much to learn, when realising that not a few of our choices are destructive, or self destructive when our conscience "kicks-in" to remind us that there will be occasions when our actions are contrary to our well being even, the well being of others with whom we interact.

    Both you, and Love me 2 have correctly acknowledged that Holy Scripture is not a rule book rather, a guide...but the challenge is that the paradoxical sayings of Christ in the scriptures are like Zen koans, and koans or paradox cannot be understood by reasoning understood through rationalising in black, and white terms.

    In Jeremiah, the words “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you” can be compared with the Zen koan “What was your Original Face before you were born?” and the “faith to move mountains” can be compared with the koan “Drink up in one draught all the waters in the river.” Knowing how to read the Scriptures when they are paradoxical is the same challenge as knowing how to interpret koans because they are also paradox.

    Zen as a puzzle solver can even help us gain more understanding of the way that The Christ is seen to behave, and can help us discover aspects of Jesus that most of us have failed to understand. We may be surprised that Jesus appears to lose control, and becomes angry when discoveingr that his family attempted to persuade him to cease his evanglising for fear he was insane.

    Jesus said ‘let the dead bury their dead,’ and ‘do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth’ .... the history of Zen is replete with Zen masters very angry in their determination to influence their students to look beyond the obvious by understanding that enlightenment resides not in the words but in the awareness that the metaphor is the vehicle conveying a truth that can open ones consciousness to the bigger picture.

    Jesus' extraordinary (angry) behaviour is for the purpose of jolting his disciples out of their predictable state of understanding in which they can only see difference, and separation (the negative, or sinful) instead guiding them into oneness with the creator through whom the loving student is set on a voyage of growing enlightenment by being guided into understanding the positive that evolves out of learning from our life's experiences that "sin" is an eye opening experiences enabling us to improve our understandings.

    Thus, it can be said that reading Holy Scripture is as much about understanding that which is "hidden" between the lines, as it is about realising that the metaphor is the story, and the koan the puzzle that can be deciphered only when we stop believing that story telling - the metaphor - is the sole object of scriptural guidance read in black, and white terms denying us the underlying enlightement available to all whose eyes are opened.
    Last edited by kallipolis; September 9th, 2013 at 02:30 AM.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangbad View Post
    I'm curious when and where this often-repeated doctrine arose. It's very common among anti-gay Christians in America today, but of course it directly contradicts Christ's well-known words as recounted in Matthew 5:27-28.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

    This quote raises more conflicts with modern sexual ethics than just the one being discussed in this thread, but I think it unequivocally rules out any possibility for a person who claims to base his morality on the inerrancy of the Bible to argue that a celibate gay man is not actively sinning.

    (To make my own position clear and avoid misunderstanding, I should say that Christ has been the key to my experience of the sacred, but I don't think that the Bible is a magically infallible rulebook.)
    That's not a contradiction. The temptation to lust and the lust are two different things. Martin Luther borrowed a great illustration from one of the church Fathers: you have no control over whether birds fly over your head, but you can control whether you invite them to land -- though once you've invited some to land, others will fly over more often. In other words, if you look at an attractive person and your biology reacts, that's the temptation, and it's no sin -- but the moment you pursue that biological reaction with your imagination, you're in the territory Christ indicated.

    So there's no way to know if a celibate gay man is actively sinning. He might pop a hard-on at the sight of a hot guy, but that's not sin. To know if he's sinning, we'd have to know what he's dong with his imagination.


    BTW, what does "the inerrancy of the Bible" have to do with this, in your view? In particular, are you meaning the modern fundamentalist version of the term, meaning every last statement is literally true and correct (whatever that means), or the original version, that the words/message of the Bible always strike the target God intends?

    [The original terms for both inerrancy and infallibility as applied to scripture were both terms used in archery, meaning, respectively, that the arrow when fired always hits, and that the archer always chooses his target correctly.]

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Both you, and Love me 2 have correctly acknowledged that Holy Scripture is not a rule book rather, a guide...but the challenge is that the paradoxical sayings of Christ in the scriptures are like Zen koans, and koans or paradox cannot be understood by reasoning understood through rationalising in black, and white terms.

    In Jeremiah, the words “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you” can be compared with the Zen koan “What was your Original Face before you were born?” and the “faith to move mountains” can be compared with the koan “Drink up in one draught all the waters in the river.” Knowing how to read the Scriptures when they are paradoxical is the same challenge as knowing how to interpret koans because they are also paradox.

    Zen as a puzzle solver can even help us gain more understanding of the way that The Christ is seen to behave, and can help us discover aspects of Jesus that most of us have failed to understand. We may be surprised that Jesus appears to lose control, and becomes angry when discoveingr that his family attempted to persuade him to cease his evanglising for fear he was insane.

    Jesus said ‘let the dead bury their dead,’ and ‘do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth’ .... the history of Zen is replete with Zen masters very angry in their determination to influence their students to look beyond the obvious by understanding that enlightenment resides not in the words but in the awareness that the metaphor is the vehicle conveying a truth that can open ones consciousness to the bigger picture.

    Jesus' extraordinary (angry) behaviour is for the purpose of jolting his disciples out of their predictable state of understanding in which they can only see difference, and separation (the negative, or sinful) instead guiding them into oneness with the creator through whom the loving student is set on a voyage of growing enlightenment by being guided into understanding the positive that evolves out of learning from our life's experiences that "sin" is an eye opening experiences enabling us to improve our understandings.

    Thus, it can be said that reading Holy Scripture is as much about understanding that which is "hidden" between the lines, as it is about realising that the metaphor is the story, and the koan the puzzle that can be deciphered only when we stop believing that story telling - the metaphor - is the sole object of scriptural guidance read in black, and white terms denying us the underlying enlightement available to all whose eyes are opened.
    This is an excellent point!

    We today assume that everything has to be in linear thought that falls into Aristotelian-like categories, but the people in the time of the Bible didn't think that way. Teaching by 'contradiction' was a common way to get people to think -- the earliest example I can think of in the Bible is the supposed commandment "You shall make no graven image", which goes in into attendant details -- details which are item by item 'contradicted' by God's own command not much later, in the instructions for the Temple. Similarly it was understood that a given statement can mean two things at once; the classic example is Jesus' statement to Nicodemus, commonly rendered by today's 'evangelicals' "You must be born again", but equally well rendered as "You must be born from above" -- and in reality meaning both things at once.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  39. #39

    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    For the first question....see Catechism of the Catholic Church #2357-2359.
    That language is from 1998. It is not the origin of the idea - certainly not among American evangelicals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    As for Matthew 5:27-28, 1st off, you can look upon the other person and admire God's Masterpiece of Art, and can do that without LUSTING. If you are looking at the person with thoughts of sexual activity with that person...that is Lusting, and another word that can be used is: fantasize. So, therefore you're half right on the Gospel according to Matthew.
    Most of what you say here is irrelevant to my point. The text is clear that desire - "lust" - is a sin just as much as acting on that desire. A celibate gay man who still experiences desire has not - if he is to be judged by this text - succeeded in escaping sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    As for the innerancy/infallibleness of the Bible, you are wrong.
    You have misread this part of my post.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    For the first question....see Catechism of the Catholic Church #2357-2359. As for Matthew 5:27-28, 1st off, you can look upon the other person and admire God's Masterpiece of Art, and can do that without LUSTING. If you are looking at the person with thoughts of sexual activity with that person...that is Lusting, and another word that can be used is: fantasize. So, therefore you're half right on the Gospel according to Matthew.

    As for the innerancy/infallibleness of the Bible, you are wrong. The Bible is History, Poetry, drama (negative and positive), you name it, it's all in there. The key to the inerrancy of the Holy Word of God is in the interpretations according to the genre a particular part of the Bible is written, ie; its Literary genres, and there are several genres; History, Prophetic, Poetry (Book of Psalms), the era they were written, Chronological time-line, Archeology, etc. I may also include that there are many translations of the Holy Word of God, and the key to this one is finding which is closest to the Original Transcripts of Scriptures. Think of the Bible as a GUIDE BOOK, not a RULE BOOK.
    There is nothing wrong with lust or lusting after a person. Sexual desire and sexual fantasies are good things and give great pleasure and satisfaction. Without sexual desire there would be no procreation and thus for most species extinction. Lusting is a wonderful thing as any psychologist or biologist will tell you and is necessary for a species to survive. This again shows Christianity's evil nature and it's hatred for the body, for sexuality and sexual desire which are all good things are a necessary part of nature. It is no wonder at how Christianity turns people to insanity and delusion due to sexual repression for we are all sexual creatures. It is in our nature and to deny this part of us is to deny life itself.

    Also the Bible and the Quran are completely human inventions. No god designed these books nor did any god decide which books he liked out of the myriad differing books out there.



    All Abrahamics are nothing more then the worshipers of a violent war god made in Canaan.
    Last edited by Mariatenebre; September 9th, 2013 at 10:27 PM.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    ^Genesis 9:1

    And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.


    Even (the Abrahamic) God expects the human being to engage in sexual relations......

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangbad View Post
    Most of what you say here is irrelevant to my point. The text is clear that desire - "lust" - is a sin just as much as acting on that desire. A celibate gay man who still experiences desire has not - if he is to be judged by this text - succeeded in escaping sin.
    It's your literalistic reading of the text that is being questioned for others here read the same text and do not reach your conclusion.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    We today assume that everything has to be in linear thought that falls into Aristotelian-like categories, but the people in the time of the Bible didn't think that way. Teaching by 'contradiction' was a common way to get people to think
    Your comments also relate to the oneness of opposites wherein we can identify apparent opposing concepts functioning as one:

    The road up, and the road down are the same thing. (Hippolytus) - one road providing ascent, and descent shared opposite functions.

    The challenge is to encourage the thinker to think beyond linear progression a recipe for narrow (fundamentalist) interpretations.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post

    As for the innerancy/infallibleness of the Bible, you are wrong. The Bible is History, Poetry, drama (negative and positive), you name it, it's all in there. The key to the inerrancy of the Holy Word of God is in the interpretations according to the genre a particular part of the Bible is written, ie; its Literary genres, and there are several genres; History, Prophetic, Poetry (Book of Psalms), the era they were written, Chronological time-line, Archeology, etc. I may also include that there are many translations of the Holy Word of God, and the key to this one is finding which is closest to the Original Transcripts of Scriptures. Think of the Bible as a GUIDE BOOK, not a RULE BOOK.

    This is an accurate reflection of my own understandings, but I am sure that The Holy Spirit guides those who listen to his word.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangbad View Post
    Most of what you say here is irrelevant to my point. The text is clear that desire - "lust" - is a sin just as much as acting on that desire. A celibate gay man who still experiences desire has not - if he is to be judged by this text - succeeded in escaping sin.
    You're smearing meanings together to force your meaning on the text.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This is an accurate reflection of my own understandings, but I am sure that The Holy Spirit guides those who listen to his word.
    Yes, the Holy Spirit does guide those who listen to his Word, but he can do it IF the listener is listening with an open mind and heart, ie; allowing him access to the Heart.

    Now, as for finding a translation of Scriptures that is closest to the orginal texts (manuscripts), for me, that is the Latin Vulgate by Saint Jerome, and then that translated into what is today called "Douay-Rheims" Version, which is also older than the King James Version.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    Yes, the Holy Spirit does guide those who listen to his Word, but he can do it IF the listener is listening with an open mind and heart, ie; allowing him access to the Heart.

    Now, as for finding a translation of Scriptures that is closest to the orginal texts (manuscripts), for me, that is the Latin Vulgate by Saint Jerome, and then that translated into what is today called "Douay-Rheims" Version, which is also older than the King James Version.
    Jerome's work wasn't bad for his time, but he had only a limited resource in terms of the original text. Those that did the King James work had far, far more accurate a view of what the original was, and on that basis alone is to be preferred to Jerome for knowing what the inspired text said. The "Douay-Rheims" is far less trustworthy than even the KJV, besides being translated with a deliberate doctrinal slant.

    In short, neither the Vulgate nor the D-R has any claim to being "closest to the original", especially when compared to efforts such as the New American Standard (which is a superb rendition, with just one serious weakness -- they have changed the wording of their text without stating so, in new editions).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Jerome's work wasn't bad for his time, but he had only a limited resource in terms of the original text. Those that did the King James work had far, far more accurate a view of what the original was, and on that basis alone is to be preferred to Jerome for knowing what the inspired text said. The "Douay-Rheims" is far less trustworthy than even the KJV, besides being translated with a deliberate doctrinal slant.

    In short, neither the Vulgate nor the D-R has any claim to being "closest to the original", especially when compared to efforts such as the New American Standard (which is a superb rendition, with just one serious weakness -- they have changed the wording of their text without stating so, in new editions).
    Would you care to elucidate...for I'm curious....it's not an English language version that I have read.

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Would you care to elucidate...for I'm curious....it's not an English language version that I have read.
    The whole purpose of the D-R translation was to produce a version that would counter the Reformation. As such, at every point of possible disagreement, wording was used that would support Roman doctrine over any Reformation view, and extensive notes were supplied to bolster that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Christians: Did God make us gay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The whole purpose of the D-R translation was to produce a version that would counter the Reformation. As such, at every point of possible disagreement, wording was used that would support Roman doctrine over any Reformation view, and extensive notes were supplied to bolster that.
    I understood that but would welcome one example of where the Douai deviates from the Koine sufficiently to justify your assertion.....

    I have never known any scripture translation to have been deliberately mis-translated to fit in with a particular dogma...whereas, interpretation regularly performs that role.

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