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Thread: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

      
   
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    Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    The Alliance Defending Freedom is offering free legal defense to clerks in MN and RI who refuse to issue marriage licenses:

    WASHINGTON — Alliance Defending Freedom is advising officials responsible for issuing marriage licenses in Rhode Island and Minnesota that they do not have to violate their faith or conscience by personally issuing licenses to applicants who are of the same sex.

    Two new legal memos issued Wednesday in Rhode Island and Minnesota advise officials that they can delegate responsibility for issuing the licenses to deputies or assistants who don’t have conscience-based objections to issuing the licenses to same-sex applicants.

    “No American should have to choose between their conscience and their job in America,” said Litigation Counsel Kellie Fiedorek. “The First Amendment protects Americans from being coerced to give up their careers to maintain their religious freedom. Religious freedom is guaranteed to every American, including those issuing marriage licenses.”
    I think Joe's comment says it all:

    Just one day after NOM's Brian Brown issued a spittle-flecked denouncement of the "lawless" politicians who defy same-sex marriage bans, Alliance Defending Freedom has issued a notice to clerks in Rhode Island and Minnesota, offering them free legal defense if they defy local marriage laws. The rules are always different if you love Jesus. Praise! Glory!
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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Love the names these hate groups give themselves. How does denying a couple a marriage license defending anyone's freedom?

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Hypocrites R US at NOM.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Bullshit. Did they try to use the same excuse in the 60s after Loving v Virginia? Interracial marriage interferes with religious beliefs?

    People in civil service have an obligation to serve their residents and constituents. Marriage equality is the law of the land in Minnesota, Rhode Island, and a handful of other states. If one has no desire to uphold and fulfill his or her obligations and adhere to state law and the constitution, they don't belong in civil service.
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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboybob View Post
    how does denying a couple a marriage license defending anyone's freedom?
    think of the children!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Teachers are not allowed to act contrary to their job descriptions because of their personal faith. No other government employee is allowed to do so, either.

    All this will accomplish is line the pockets of lawyers willing to defend bigots.


    From another angle: Christians of an era closer to the founder would have resigned their jobs/positions.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    It looks like Rhode Island and Minnesota States said, Okay, you don't have to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples if you have "conscious based objections", you can ask another clerk, or assistant to do the paperwork.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    It looks like Rhode Island and Minnesota States said, Okay, you don't have to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples if you have "conscious based objections", you can ask another clerk, or assistant to do the paperwork.
    As far as I can find, the only people saying that are the right-wing lawyers, not the states.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    It looks like Rhode Island and Minnesota States said, Okay, you don't have to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples if you have "conscious based objections", you can ask another clerk, or assistant to do the paperwork.
    Can they refuse to issue a certificate of they have other "conscious based objections"? Like interracial marriage or intergenerational marriage?

    I would have a "conscious based objection" of a 90 year old man marrying a 18 year old teenage girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post

    Can they refuse to issue a certificate of they have other "conscious based objections"? Like interracial marriage or intergenerational marriage?

    I would have a "conscious based objection" of a 90 year old man marrying a 18 year old teenage girl.
    I wouldn't. The worst thing he can do to her is leave her a widow at 20...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I wouldn't. The worst thing he can do to her is leave her a widow at 20...
    Which he probably would.

    Then there's the Anna Nicole factor. Marrying the geezer for his money. That makes the woman nothing more than a prostitute and isn't prostitution illegal in 49 states? Marrying simply for money is legal but gay marriage isn't in most states?

    I had a talk with a "conservative" last week about gay marriage and I got the same old same old from him. When he started the argument about marriage is for procreation purposes he left in a huff when I mentioned about post-menopausal women able to get married & men who have no testicles can get married. He whined about they can adopt and walked out the door when I said so can a gay person.

    It's easy to blow all their arguments out the door. It's prejudice, pure and simple.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    It looks like Rhode Island and Minnesota States said, Okay, you don't have to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples if you have "conscious based objections", you can ask another clerk, or assistant to do the paperwork.
    Hey! That's what I was gonna say. But you're right they should pass that buck to lower assistants.
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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    As far as I can find, the only people saying that are the right-wing lawyers, not the states.
    This.

    It is just a couple of litigation lawyers with a chub for the old testament that are offering this counsel.

    Hopefully, like the cunt in New York who tried it on...anyone who follows this misguided advice without first checking their contract to see if they can actually pass off any work they don't want to do will get their asses fired out the door.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    They have no arguments other then prejudice,simple as that

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    One more thing..anti-gay groups in MN are already talking about voting out pro marriage Democrats and the few Republicans that voted in favor of anti-gay ones who will push to put a ban back on the ballot.
    One problem for the bigots,even if the House goes back into Republican hands,the Senate won't be up for relection until 2016 so it will be under Democrat control until then,which means any gay marriage ban will be DOA if it gets to the Senate.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Near as I can tell the Tea Party branch of the party have decided that recall elections are the weapon of choice when they don't get their way. There seems to be a substantial increase in the number of recall efforts all over the country lately. Here in Colorado they are getting ready to have the first ever recall election aimed at the lawmakers who supported new gun laws.

    It seems to have worked in few places at first but I expect over time the voters will grow weary of it and the requirements for initiating a recall will be hardened.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by AstareGod View Post
    Bullshit. Did they try to use the same excuse in the 60s after Loving v Virginia? Interracial marriage interferes with religious beliefs?
    Yes, actually, they did.

    Deuteronomy 7:3–4 commands the Hebrews not to marry with other "races" (actually, anyone who is not Hebrew).

    You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you...
    The Christian bible authorizes racism and legitimizes slavery in the name of God. You can use the bible to prove beyond doubt that God supports whatever position you require.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; August 3rd, 2013 at 10:56 AM.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Near as I can tell the Tea Party branch of the party have decided that recall elections are the weapon of choice when they don't get their way. There seems to be a substantial increase in the number of recall efforts all over the country lately.
    The Tea Party (which claims extreme patriotism) has a fascinating contempt for the democratic process.

    Whenever they lose an election (which is often), they declare that God's will has been subverted by the derangement of the majority, and they will right this heresy by installing the biblically correct person to the office. The electoral process be damned.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Yes, actually, they did.

    Deuteronomy 7:3–4 commands the Hebrews not to marry with other "races" (actually, anyone who is not Hebrew).



    The Christian bible authorizes racism and legitimizes slavery in the name of God. You can use the bible to prove beyond doubt that God supports whatever position you require.
    False. Only with major surgery to eliminate the actual message of the volume can that be maintained.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    False. Only with major surgery to eliminate the actual message of the volume can that be maintained.
    No, sorry, you are mistaken. The Bible does OK slavery, and preaches slaves' obedience to their masters. I've seen the passages.
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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, sorry, you are mistaken. The Bible does OK slavery, and preaches slaves' obedience to their masters. I've seen the passages.
    Correct.

    The bible was used extensively by southern preachers before and during the Civil War, to prove God's support of slavery (and therefore the southern cause). Southerners fervently believed that God was on their side during the war, and that the north was morally corrupt and anti-Christian in its mission to eliminate slavery. And, the southerners had ample scriptural support for their beliefs.

    Just two examples:

    Ephesians 6:5-8 "5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free."


    Titus 2:9-10 "9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive."
    Last edited by T-Rexx; August 3rd, 2013 at 02:21 PM.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Correct.

    The bible was used extensively by southern preachers before and during the Civil War, to prove God's support of slavery (and therefore the southern cause). Southerners fervently believed that God was on their side during the war, and that the north was morally corrupt and anti-Christian in its mission to eliminate slavery. And, the southerners had ample scriptural support for their beliefs.
    The same teachings were also used long after the war to uphold the Jim Crow position in the south.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    And during some of our lifetimes, interracial marriage was a felony in some states. In 1967, the Supreme Court ruled anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional. They didn't put this law up for a vote like we're seeing now.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, sorry, you are mistaken. The Bible does OK slavery, and preaches slaves' obedience to their masters. I've seen the passages.
    Exactly -- you can snip and clip to get that result if you want it. But the Bible does not teach it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Correct.

    The bible was used extensively by southern preachers before and during the Civil War, to prove God's support of slavery (and therefore the southern cause). Southerners fervently believed that God was on their side during the war, and that the north was morally corrupt and anti-Christian in its mission to eliminate slavery. And, the southerners had ample scriptural support for their beliefs.

    Just two examples:

    Ephesians 6:5-8 "5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free."


    Titus 2:9-10 "9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive."
    Note the absolute hypocrisy of the South in using those passages: both of them apply to a culture where slaves had the freedom to attend religious meetings like everyone else -- because that's where the teaching Paul talks about took place. If the South had really meant to follow the Bible (but stick to slavery) they would have let their slaves pick a church to go to on Sunday, and taken them along if they picked the master's church.

    But the early church realized quickly that slavery is not compatible with the Bible, because any man who is in the image of God and has been redeemed by the blood of God the Son, he is equal to all other men and cannot be owned.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    That's nitpicking. So the bible is misrepresented because it only supports slavery if slaves are allowed to go to church? I promise you for most of us that's a small technicality.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That's nitpicking. So the bible is misrepresented because it only supports slavery if slaves are allowed to go to church? I promise you for most of us that's a small technicality.
    Please respond to what I actually said.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Exactly -- you can snip and clip to get that result if you want it. But the Bible does not teach it.
    Horseshit. The Bible very clearly supports slavery, in both the old and new testaments. Only difference is, the teaching in the OT let you abuse your slaves whereas in the NT you are supposed to treat them with at least a modicum of decency.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Christianity and slavery

    In the periods that the Bible was written, slavery was considered the natural order of things and no major religion spoke out against it. But Religious Tolerance also notes that the earliest movements to abolish slavery also started in the Christian church.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Christianity and slavery

    In the periods that the Bible was written, slavery was considered the natural order of things and no major religion spoke out against it. But Religious Tolerance also notes that the earliest movements to abolish slavery also started in the Christian church.
    Of course. Slavery is utterly incompatible with the great themes of the Bible. The Old Testament tolerates it; the New Testament gives no approval at all, merely counsel on how those caught in that institution should behave.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    With few exceptions, the church in America did not follow biblical ideals regarding slavery. Slaves were not treated in ways that were consistent with either the old or new testament.

    But this thread is about Marriage Equality in Rhode Island and Minnesota, not slavery, so why don't we talk about that.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    These threads have a habit of getting derailed sad to say.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Of course. Slavery is utterly incompatible with the great themes of the Bible. The Old Testament tolerates it; the New Testament gives no approval at all, merely counsel on how those caught in that institution should behave.
    Slavery is not at all "incompatible with the great themes of the bible." The bible endorses slavery on many occasions.

    Nowhere does the bible condemn slavery. Not even once.

    It's pretty clear that the Christian God believes that men should keep slaves.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    With few exceptions, the church in America did not follow biblical ideals regarding slavery. Slaves were not treated in ways that were consistent with either the old or new testament.
    This is most emphatically not true. The bible lays out clear guidelines for the treatment of slaves: when it is acceptable to beat slaves, what persons may be subject to slavery, and under what conditions slaves may be raped. The treatment of slaves in America was generally consistent with biblical guidelines. These guidelines served for centuries as justification for the heinous treatment of slaves in America.

    Yes, I know that it is difficult to understand today how such behavior could have been regarded as truly "Christian" in the past. But, the bible has always been used to justify whatever behavior is required to be justified by its interpreters.


    Leviticus 25:44-46 You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
    Exodus 21:2-6 If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.
    Exodus 21:7-11 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
    Exodus 21:20-21 When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
    Even Jesus personally endorsed the beating of disobedient slaves:

    Luke 12:47 The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.


    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    But this thread is about Marriage Equality in Rhode Island and Minnesota, not slavery, so why don't we talk about that.
    This thread is about clerks in Rhode Island and Minnesota refusing to perform gay marriages because of personal religious beliefs.

    I can think of nothing more relevant to this discussion than the biblical guidelines which lay out for Christians that behavior which is moral and acceptable, and by which they should lead their lives.

    I hope (and expect) that, a century from now, people will be amazed to learn that the bible was once used to treat homosexuals disrespectfully.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; August 5th, 2013 at 07:14 AM.

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    So, what would happen to these clerks if they refused to issue marriage licenses to mixed-race couples? Or let say, the clerks refused to allow a person to register to vote because she is a woman. These are issues from our past, but we managed to move on.

    The same situation applies to this situation. No one is asking these clerks to make a moral judgement. No one is asking these clerks to impose their religious beliefs on other people. However, these clerks are asking these clerks to do their jobs. If they can't do their jobs, then that is failure to perform.

    Homophobia kills!

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    With few exceptions, the church in America did not follow biblical ideals regarding slavery. Slaves were not treated in ways that were consistent with either the old or new testament.

    But this thread is about Marriage Equality in Rhode Island and Minnesota, not slavery, so why don't we talk about that.
    Well, "the church in America" hasn't been very good at following biblical ideals regarding marriage, either: the same principles that destroy any approval of slavery militate against the whole "Shut up and obey your husband!" bullshit just as strongly.

    In fact "the church in America" -- or at least the loudmouthed part of it -- isn't doing well on much of anything that has to do with the Bible's great principles concerning human beings, namely the Image of God and Redemption.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; August 5th, 2013 at 11:11 AM. Reason: stupid "update" function

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    This is most emphatically not true. The bible lays out clear guidelines for the treatment of slaves: when it is acceptable to beat slaves, what persons may be subject to slavery, and under what conditions slaves may be raped. The treatment of slaves in America was generally consistent with biblical guidelines. These guidelines served for centuries as justification for the heinous treatment of slaves in America.

    Yes, I know that it is difficult to understand today how such behavior could have been regarded as truly "Christian" in the past. But, the bible has always been used to justify whatever behavior is required to be justified by its interpreters.










    Even Jesus personally endorsed the beating of disobedient slaves:





    This thread is about clerks in Rhode Island and Minnesota refusing to perform gay marriages because of personal religious beliefs.

    I can think of nothing more relevant to this discussion than the biblical guidelines which lay out for Christians that behavior which is moral and acceptable, and by which they should lead their lives.

    I hope (and expect) that, a century from now, people will be amazed to learn that the bible was once used to treat homosexuals disrespectfully.
    I included the Bible quotes which are relevant to this discussion when I quoted your post.

    And I bolded the lie which you included. By your "reasoning" there, President Obama approves of gassing innocent civilians by totalitarian governments.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; August 5th, 2013 at 11:11 AM. Reason: stupid "update" function

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    These threads have a habit of getting derailed sad to say.
    All threads where people come in treating the Bible like a restaurant menu go that way.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    I know you like to consider the bible some infallible document of perfect morality that humans just misinterpret and haven't grown enough to follow properly, but it's pretty hard to make that argument re slavery, with all those quotes bombarding you. They are all part of the Bible, no two ways about it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Anti-Gay Hate Group Tells Clerks In MN & RI They Don't Have To Marry Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I included the Bible quotes which are relevant to this discussion when I quoted your post.
    Looks to me like you deleted everything I quoted from the bible which made you uncomfortable. You like to accuse others of treating the bible like "a restaurant menu." I think you just did exactly what you are objecting to.

    That the bible endorses slavery is beyond question. Pretending that those passages don't exist does not make the bible holier than it would be without your censoring.

    We do the same thing in the USA. Today, when you see publications of our Constitution, they often leave out those parts which define black people as three-fifths of a human being. But, pretending that we used to be better people than we were does not make us better people today. The Constitution was never a perfect document for all time. Nor is the bible. It is well to appreciate that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And I bolded the lie which you included. By your "reasoning" there, President Obama approves of gassing innocent civilians by totalitarian governments.
    To my knowledge, Obama has never endorsed the gassing of anybody by anyone.

    And I don't see what that has to do with Christ's endorsement of slavery. Christ lived at a time when slavery had been the accepted norm for all of human history. Of course He acknowledged it - how could He not have?

    Please point out for me those passages of the bible where Christ (or anyone else, for that matter) condemns slavery. I am having trouble finding those.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; August 5th, 2013 at 01:35 PM.

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