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Thread: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

      
   
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    Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    And for that matter, other transactions?

    The total amount of money moved in trading in the US every year runs not in the trillions, but in the quadrillions of dollars. If all other transactions of amounts above $100k were added, the amount leaps higher.

    If such transactions were taxed at a mere one tenth of one percent, the result would be an elimination of the current deficit.

    Other countries have such taxes, and they work quite well without harming their economies. Why doesn't the US?


    As food for thought:

    http://www.alternet.org/economy/5-re...s-transactions
    Last edited by Kulindahr; July 29th, 2013 at 10:30 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    I've BEEN ASKING THIS QUESTION FOR DECADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    I think that the millionaires in congress and their billionaire owners do not want it.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Of course they don't - and they're the ones who make the rules.
    Capitalize when needed. Did you help your Uncle Jack off a horse, or help your uncle jack off a horse?
    AMY'S BOSS: Sorry, I need to lay you and Jack off. AMY: Can you just jack off? I feel like shit today.
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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    You can't tax a trade until a profit has been made and realized (actually cashed out). The bigger question is why the capital gains made on these transactions are taxed at a lower rate than standard income tax. Talk about economic unfairness!

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    When I worked in the Stock market there was a NYC tax on all transactions. I don't know why the government can't do it as well.
    Remember I haven't been in the stock market since 1991 so I don't know if things have changed.
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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    because Wall Street writes our tax laws?

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Stock market is like gambling but using other people's money.
    They should be tax.


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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by gambit22121 View Post
    You can't tax a trade until a profit has been made and realized (actually cashed out). The bigger question is why the capital gains made on these transactions are taxed at a lower rate than standard income tax. Talk about economic unfairness!
    QFT.

    I am just glad I am no longer in the Stock Market business.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Oh jeez...

    DON'T ADVOCATE for MORE TAXES!!!

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by gambit22121 View Post
    You can't tax a trade until a profit has been made and realized (actually cashed out). The bigger question is why the capital gains made on these transactions are taxed at a lower rate than standard income tax. Talk about economic unfairness!
    Two reasons. When an asset is held for a number of years, part of the sale price is inflation of the currency, not income. The inflation part of the sale price is a return of capital, not income.The Federal government can tax income but it cannot tax capital unless it is proportioned to the census in the states, I.e. a different rate in each state.
    Second, history shows that a lower capital gain tax rate generates more taxes because assets are bought and sold more often than at high rate. At a high rate people are very reluctant to sell.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 30th, 2013 at 04:45 PM.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    I don't think they are proposing a capital gains or income tax but a tax on the transactions themselves sort a sales tax on each transaction.
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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Two reasons. When an asset is held for a number of years, part of the sale price is inflation of the currency, not income. The inflation part of the sale price is a return of capital, not income.The Federal government can tax income but it cannot tax capital unless it is proportioned to the census in the states, I.e. a different rate in each state.
    Second, history shows that a lower capital gain tax rate generates more taxes because assets are bought and sold more often than at high rate. At a high rate people are very reluctant to sell.
    Both of those statements are BS. Inflation is taxed daily on common goods sold to consumers, so why shouldn't it be taxed on stocks, bonds, etc.? Taxing capital gains is taxing income since the gains aren't realized until the sale of the asset. Any money realized from such sale that is in excess of the capital put in originally is a profit and thus is an income and thus should be taxed at the rate of income. Otherwise, why shouldn't the difference in what I take out of my 401(k) versus what I put in be taxed at a lower rate?

    Secondly, people sell assets when it yields them a profit. Using the argument that people won't sell because the taxes will be high is like saying businesses aren't hiring because they have high tax rates. Businesses hire when demand necessitates it and not until then and people sell assets to yield a profit and not before then (unless they're avoiding an even bigger loss.) You're using fairytales that rich people like to tell the commoners to make them think the system is actually fair to them when it is not.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by gambit22121 View Post
    You can't tax a trade until a profit has been made and realized (actually cashed out). The bigger question is why the capital gains made on these transactions are taxed at a lower rate than standard income tax. Talk about economic unfairness!
    Sure you can --

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I don't think they are proposing a capital gains or income tax but a tax on the transactions themselves sort a sales tax on each transaction.
    If they wanted, states could call financial trades sales subject to sales tax just like anything else.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Capital assets are often held for periods of years and are often subject to inflation of the currency during that period. The result is that all or part of the increase in dollars may not be an increase in buying power. He may have no actual income because, the value of the money has decreased. 401k distributions should be taxed at a lower rate. Good point.
    Of course it is not true that people sell capital assets whenever they have a profit. People often hold stock, real estate and other assets for many years, for income or continuing appreciation. If they will lose a big chunk to Federal And State taxes, they will have much less to reinvest. It is a strong incentive not to change investments.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    If I give you a canoe and you give me a reclining chair, what value has government provided that I should pay for their services?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Capital assets are often held for periods of years and are often subject to inflation of the currency during that period. The result is that all or part of the increase in dollars may not be an increase in buying power. He may have no actual income because, the value of the money has decreased. 401k distributions should be taxed at a lower rate. Good point.
    Of course it is not true that people sell capital assets whenever they have a profit. People often hold stock, real estate and other assets for many years, for income or continuing appreciation. If they will lose a big chunk to Federal And State taxes, they will have much less to reinvest. It is a strong incentive not to change investments.
    The point I was making was that everything that has monetary value is subject to inflation of the currency and the tax rates on those are independent of said rate of inflation. This has never been an argument used to justify the lower tax rates on capital gains. The only argument I have ever heard is that it "encourages investment" which is political speak for "I and my rich constituents will be affected so I'm not going to do it."

    By your logic, if people hold assets for many years for income or continuing appreciation, then the idea of the tax rate on such items keeps them from selling it is moot anyway since they will hold onto that asset for years and not sell regardless of what the tax rate is. However, people will always want to realize some profit from the sale of their assets and so they will sell when it yields that profit, not because the tax rate is low. Otherwise, what is the point of holding onto an asset indefinitely when it doesn't benefit you to keep it simply to avoid a higher tax rate?

  18. #18

    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    This is from the online Concise Encyclopedia of Economics:"The tax treatment of capital gains has other unique features. One is that capital gains are not indexed for inflation: the seller pays tax not only on the real gain in purchasing power, but also on the illusory gain attributable to inflation. The inflation penalty is one reason that, historically, capital gains have been taxed at lower rates than ordinary income. In fact, Alan Blinder, a former member of the Federal Reserve Board, noted in 1980 that, up until that time, “most capital gains were not gains of real purchasing power at all, but simply represented the maintenance of principal in an inflationary world.”4

  19. #19

    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    The tendency of high capital gain taxes to compel people to hold on to assets is known as the "locked in" effect. This is also from the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics.:"
    "The historical evidence suggests that when the capital gains tax is reduced, locked-in capital is liberated and, at least temporarily, the revenues from the tax rise. For example, after the 1981 capital gains tax was cut from 28 to 20 percent, real (all figures in this section are 2004 dollars) federal capital gains tax revenues leapt from $29.4 billion in 1981 to $36.6 billion by 1983—a 24 percent increase. After the capital gains tax was cut in 1997, the receipts from capital gains taxes rose from $66.9 billion in 1996 to $114.7 billion by 1999, an increase of more than 71 percent. Preliminary data suggest that the capital gains tax cut of 2003 to a rate of 15 percent has also caused tax revenues to increase, at least in the first year (see Figure 1)."
    Here is a ink to the Encyclopediahttp://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/CapitalGainsTaxes.html:
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 31st, 2013 at 09:17 AM.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    If I give you a canoe and you give me a reclining chair, what value has government provided that I should pay for their services?
    Are you proposing that you can buy stock, and make other financial transactions, with canoes and recliners????

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    From the article:

    The Tax Works in Countries with the 'Freest' Economies

    A good place to start is Singapore. Or Hong Kong or Switzerland. These are three of the top five countries on the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom, and they all have FTTs. Critics who might argue that non-FTT taxes are lower in Singapore and Hong Kong should look at World Bank and CIA World Factbook datasets, both of which show the U.S. with lower tax revenues as a percentage of GDP.
    I'll note in passing that if all financial transactions in New York were subject to the state sales tax next year from 1 January to Tax Day, the revenue would be enough to pay off the US national debt, fully fund those pesky Postal Service pensions, and fund every currently proposed federal highway project -- with some to spare.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Are you proposing that you can buy stock, and make other financial transactions, with canoes and recliners????
    No, I'm pointing out that trading in used goods does not usually attract taxation for the reason that those goods have already been taxed when produced.

    It is the production of new wealth where the government takes a cut.

    So, you might be able to convince me to apply a sales tax when people buy an IPO, since it's something new. But the dividends (representing wealth generated by the company during its operation) are taxed as income already. Trading shares for money doesn't actually produce wealth, it just results in a change in ownership of used capital assets. And even then we apply "capital gains tax!"
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The tendency of high capital gain taxes to compel people to hold on to assets is known as the "locked in" effect. This is also from the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics.:"
    "The historical evidence suggests that when the capital gains tax is reduced, locked-in capital is liberated and, at least temporarily, the revenues from the tax rise. For example, after the 1981 capital gains tax was cut from 28 to 20 percent, real (all figures in this section are 2004 dollars) federal capital gains tax revenues leapt from $29.4 billion in 1981 to $36.6 billion by 1983—a 24 percent increase. After the capital gains tax was cut in 1997, the receipts from capital gains taxes rose from $66.9 billion in 1996 to $114.7 billion by 1999, an increase of more than 71 percent. Preliminary data suggest that the capital gains tax cut of 2003 to a rate of 15 percent has also caused tax revenues to increase, at least in the first year (see Figure 1)."
    Here is a ink to the Encyclopediahttp://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/CapitalGainsTaxes.html:
    First of all, for both of your posts, the guy who writes that uses selective analysis of metrics to support his point. For instance, if you take his claim that lower tax rates result in more investment and more business start ups, you only have to look so far as his table 2 that shows when capital gains taxes were roughly double what they are today, there were 2-3 times as many business startups, indicating that it's actually the market that drives investment and new startups versus the tax rate. Additionally, his claim of capital gains being a form of double taxation is preposterous. Taxing the gain that someone makes on selling stock in a company is not the same as taxing the profits a business brings in. Those are two totally different sources of income for two totally different entities which is why they are both taxed.

    I made it to the bottom and saw this guy is a writer for the Wall Street Journal, so I realized where the capitalist, wealthy person slant came from at that point.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Oh jeez...

    DON'T ADVOCATE for MORE TAXES!!!


    when people say that raising taxes will be bad for any reason, job creation etc. its like when the government says whistle blowers like snowden make us less safe. its a scare tactic and has never been proven true.
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  25. #25

    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Ownership and use of property is a basic and critical civil right. Liberals have consistently believed that mandatory equality is more important than freedom, especially economic freedom. It is one of the basic differences between conservatives and liberals. All taxes and confiscations are a denial,of freedom, although some taxes are necessary.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    To reach the age of 18 and have an equal shot at prosperity, depending only on your own drive and skills, is the very definition of economic freedom.

    Before they can race under their own power, young people are entitled to a place on the starting line. To get them there, it takes public education public health care, and government meddling with the rights of parents to be cruel or neglectful.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

  27. #27

    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    To reach the age of 18 and have an equal shot at prosperity, depending only on your own drive and skills, is the very definition of economic freedom.

    Before they can race under their own power, young people are entitled to a place on the starting line. To get them there, it takes public education public health care, and government meddling with the rights of parents to be cruel or neglectful.
    Public education through high school and protection from abuse and neglect, to be sure. But most "rights" come only at the deprivation of others of their rights. If everyone gets free health care, others have to work to provide it. And if everyone is entitled to free health care, is not food more important? Free housing? Free clothing? Free transportation? ChildCare?
    Last edited by Benvolio; August 1st, 2013 at 10:01 AM.

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Ownership and use of property is a basic and critical civil right. Liberals have consistently believed that mandatory equality is more important than freedom, especially economic freedom. It is one of the basic differences between conservatives and liberals. All taxes and confiscations are a denial,of freedom, although some taxes are necessary.
    I maintain that the current system of private property is a denial of freedom; it has no rational basis.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Public education through high school and protection from abuse and neglect, to be sure. But most "rights" come only at the deprivation of others of their rights. If everyone gets free health care, others have to work to provide it. And if everyone is entitled to free health care, is not food more important? Free housing? Free clothing? Free transportation? ChildCare?
    In terms of technology we are close to having the ability to provide all those things. The one item we really lack is cheap energy, but once that is achieved, it would only be sensible to provide everyone with the basics.

    The element you aren't mentioning is that a great deal of what people have today is not provided by anyone's work, and most of the income of the super-wealthy is provided by someone else's work. I fail to understand how you can defend the few raking in income based on the work of others, but despise the idea that everyone should have that opportunity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    He doesn't think that far ahead. He's just been told to defend the rich at any cost, internal logic be damned!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Why aren't we taxing financial trades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    He doesn't think that far ahead. He's just been told to defend the rich at any cost, internal logic be damned!
    . . . . or common decency.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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