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  1. #51
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, they simply refer to the evil of immigrants. It's not unions we need, it's kicking out all brown people, and then employers will magically raise wages on their own.
    Your family was also immigrants. Don't forget that. The success of America is not in "kicking out brown people" as you so graphically put it but in encouraging diversity particularly in the work force and at all levels thereof. We do need unions. Your capitalism on auto pilot is pure fancy.

    I haven't lived in the country long but I find your statement ludicrous knowing what I know so far about the values that should be common to all americans such as encouraging diversity.

    What if Chicago decided to ban blacks from city council? Or maybe just ask them to leave the city altogether?
    Get real my friend. Your post is so far off the mark it's orbiting Uranus.

    Disgusting.

  2. #52
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Sugarplum, have you ever read a single post I've written here? My parents were not immigrants, they live happily on the other side of the globe. I am an international student (albeit white), and I was simply translating "benvolio-code" to English.

    Get with the program Your response is perfect, but it's directed at the wrong person.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    ^ So who should my response be directed at? Tell me who. Also, what's the program you refer to? Please indicate what it is. The information about your parents is interesting but irrelevant since you are posting not your parents! I read all your posts. Calling me sugar plum is cute and I'll accept that. Thanks for the translation. I like Google but there are better translators of course. The other side of the globe? They have American unions there too? Wow...the fetch of these people is amazing!
    Last edited by cgymike; August 5th, 2013 at 11:48 PM.

  4. #54
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Ugh, apparently I am speaking too fast.

    This post. Was. Not. My. Opinion.
    I was. Sarcastically. Explaining. What. Benvolio. Meant. With. His. Statement. That. I. Was. Addressing.

    There is no way on earth you've paid attention to my posting history if you could possibly think that I would hold such an abhorrent opinion myself...

    I am embarrassed for having to explain this, seriously.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  5. #55

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Sugarplum, have you ever read a single post I've written here? My parents were not immigrants, they live happily on the other side of the globe. I am an international student (albeit white), and I was simply translating "benvolio-code" to English.

    Get with the program Your response is perfect, but it's directed at the wrong person.
    It was a lie pure and simple, a damn lie. You simply do not have the honesty to face the fact that immigration is very damaging to American and existing Americans, and more damaging to Black and Hispanic Americans most of all. So you lie about me and change the subject to one of race rather than economics. It is a double lie, because I said nothing about immigrants.
    Last edited by Benvolio; August 6th, 2013 at 02:56 AM.

  6. #56

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The hostility to corporations, employers, the successful and the free enterprise economy displayed in your post, tragically pervades the Democrat party and any legislation they have the power to enact. It has cost the US the heavy industry advantage it once had.
    Does this me you are unable to answer my question? I'll repeat it:

    Can you name a single, specific, anti-employer piece of legislation that unions have tried to obtain?
    It's an easy question. You stated unions try to pass anti-employer legislation. Are you able to back up your statement? I doubt it.

  7. #57
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I am embarrassed for having to explain this, seriously.

  8. #58

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Does this me you are unable to answer my question? I'll repeat it:



    It's an easy question. You stated unions try to pass anti-employer legislation. Are you able to back up your statement? I doubt it.
    Virtually all Federal employment legislation is designed by Democrats to limit and injure emoloyers, ostensibly for the benefit of employees, but motivated by the same hostility as show by liberals on this board. Probably the most serious damage was done by the National Labor Relations Act, which requires employers to recognize unions and negotiate with them in good faith. The effect was to deprive the employers of much of their bargaining power, and in the long run has destroyed much of US heavy industry. The anti discrimination acts hurt employers far beyond legitimate benefits to the employees, with windfalls to employees attorneys alike. Beyond that, it is the huge number of employment burdens, taxes, regulations, and liabilities which are hostile to employers. Wages are a tiny portion, of the burdens which pressure businesses to outsource out of the country. Being incapable of admitting errors, and beholden to the unions and trial lawyers, the Democrats almost never act to relieve the burdens.
    Last edited by Benvolio; August 6th, 2013 at 06:58 AM.

  9. #59

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Virtually all Federal employment legislation is designed by Democrats to limit and injure emoloyers, ostensibly for the benefit of employees, but motivated by the same hostility as show by liberals on this board. Probably the most serious damage was done by the National Labor Relations Act, which requires employers to recognize unions and negotiate with them in good faith. The effect was to deprive the employers of much of their bargaining power, and in the long run has destroyed much of US heavy industry. The anti discrimination acts hurt employers far beyond legitimate benefits to the employees, with windfalls to employees attorneys alike. Beyond that, it is the huge number of employment burdens, taxes, regulations, and liabilities which are hostile to employers. Wages are a tiny portion, of the burdens which pressure businesses to outsource out of the country. Being incapable of admitting errors, and beholden to the unions and trial lawyers, the Democrats almost never act to relieve the burdens.
    I guess your knowledge of history is not so good, at least with respect to the New Deal legislation. Prior to the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), unions struck employers for recognition. The NLRA now gives employers facing a recognition strike the right to call for an election, which limits the strike to 30 days. The New Deal legislation also outlaws secondary boycotts, which were an extremely effective way for unions to gain recognition. Do you think the labor laws should be repealed? That means unions would be free to engage in unlimited recognition strikes and secondary boycotts. Incidentally, many labor activists would agree with that position.

    I see you are not a firm believer in the middle-class, brought to you by unions. If collective bargaining didn't exist, even more wealth would be concentrated at the top of the income scale.

    Can you name a single prosperous, democratic country with a thriving middle-class that does not recognize collective bargaining rights and the rights of employees to unionize?
    Last edited by palemale; August 6th, 2013 at 08:58 AM.

  10. #60

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    The law goes too far in requiring the employer to negotiate. Further, the "good faith" requirement allows bureaucrats and courts to meddle. The middle class has been enormously hurt by the loss of much of our heavy industry. Unions almost always go too far in their demands, impairing the company's ability to compete. With public entities, it is even worse. As with other price-fixing conspiracies, they ultimately hurt the public.
    Last edited by Benvolio; August 6th, 2013 at 10:17 AM.

  11. #61
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I see you are not a firm believer in the middle-class, brought to you by unions. If collective bargaining didn't exist, even more wealth would be concentrated at the top of the income scale.
    This fact cannot be emphasized enough.

    In 1900, American workers were low-paid, uneducated, poorly-productive serfs in a society in which extreme inequality of wealth was the norm.

    By 1950, American workers were paid a living wage, educated, and highly productive members of the new American middle class. The difference, largely, was the union movement. The Ford Motor Company notwithstanding, American companies were compelled to pay decent wages by the union movement, not out of the benevolence of a somehow enlightened upper class.

    Republicans today seek to return us to the world of 1900, against all historical and economic evidence of the poverty of such ideas. Our experience has been that a healthy middle class is the engine of American success, not an incomprehensibly wealthy handful of individuals in the upper class. To the extent that unions helped to create the middle class in the first place, they deserve our support in trying to restore this valuable American institution.

  12. #62

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    We would all like to return to the economy of the 50s when the US was dominant in most areas of manufacturing. Autos, steel, shipbuilding, electronics, appliances etc. But the unions demanded more and more, impairing our ability to be dominant in competition. Industry after industry lost out to foreign competition. The heavy industry which survives struggles, and does so by outsourcing much of the manufacturing.

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It was a lie pure and simple, a damn lie. You simply do not have the honesty to face the fact that immigration is very damaging to American and existing Americans, and more damaging to Black and Hispanic Americans most of all. So you lie about me and change the subject to one of race rather than economics. It is a double lie, because I said nothing about immigrants.
    Spare me the cheap fake outrage. When YOU talk about "too many workers", the ONLY thing you mean is immigration, whether you say the word or not. And no, I don't believe immigration harms America and Americans. Nobody here does. Immigration makes America strong. YOU and people like you make it weak.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  14. #64
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Spoilsport -_- Cool link though, thanks
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  15. #65
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We would all like to return to the economy of the 50s when the US was dominant in most areas of manufacturing. Autos, steel, shipbuilding, electronics, appliances etc. But the unions demanded more and more, impairing our ability to be dominant in competition. Industry after industry lost out to foreign competition. The heavy industry which survives struggles, and does so by outsourcing much of the manufacturing.
    Yeah, and if you could just kindly stop blaming ALL the wrong things for it...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  16. #66
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We would all like to return to the economy of the 50s when the US was dominant in most areas of manufacturing. Autos, steel, shipbuilding, electronics, appliances etc. But the unions demanded more and more, impairing our ability to be dominant in competition. Industry after industry lost out to foreign competition. The heavy industry which survives struggles, and does so by outsourcing much of the manufacturing.
    Unions impaired competition? Now come on...no one here believes that. Unions were established in part to INCREASE COMPETITION not squash it. Unions didn't demand more and more. More of what? Wages that were lost to runaway inflation? The only ones who got MORE and MORE were management and in a way I suppose one could argue unions hastened protectionism of an elite class of super-earners. But this argument is weak since they didn't need unions to embezzle from the very companies they set up. Foreign competition argument hold more water but aren't you ignoring the influence of technology on competition? Outsourcing of manufacturing more to do with port facility corruption which presto...unions had a part in.

    At least you got part of it right!

  17. #67

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We would all like to return to the economy of the 50s when the US was dominant in most areas of manufacturing. Autos, steel, shipbuilding, electronics, appliances etc. But the unions demanded more and more, impairing our ability to be dominant in competition. Industry after industry lost out to foreign competition. The heavy industry which survives struggles, and does so by outsourcing much of the manufacturing.
    Are you suggesting American workers accept Third World level pay? The problem is unfair foreign competition, made possible by international trade treaties championed by conservatives, corporations, and the politicians (Dem and Rep) that the corporations have bought.

    Are you going to answer the questions I posed to you in post 59?

  18. #68

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Are you suggesting American workers accept Third World level pay? The problem is unfair foreign competition, made possible by international trade treaties championed by conservatives, corporations, and the politicians (Dem and Rep) that the corporations have bought.

    Are you going to answer the questions I posed to you in post 59?
    See my response 62. Unions should be allowed. Employers should not be required to negotiate. But of course most of the damage has been done. We have lost much heavy industry. Repealing unnecessary burdens of employment laws might help some of it come back.

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Benvolio: why are you focusing on heavy industry. Some of that will never come back due to technological innovations anyway. America has other industry areas that are non-smokestack that have long replaced it anyway. Solar, wind, biotech, and of course networking and cloud companies. Ever heard or Amazon?

    You act as if Unions are not needed outside of a traditional plant environment like at GM...

    LOL

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We would all like to return to the economy of the 50s when the US was dominant in most areas of manufacturing. Autos, steel, shipbuilding, electronics, appliances etc. But the unions demanded more and more, impairing our ability to be dominant in competition. Industry after industry lost out to foreign competition. The heavy industry which survives struggles, and does so by outsourcing much of the manufacturing.
    No we would not all like to return to that time any more than rolling the clock back to any other time bad or good. Progress is progress and things have developed technologically which would make a jump back an impossibility. Also, we have seen the effects of American domination through history. Some of those effects frankly really ugly and most undesireable! Unions now need to move into international collective bargaining to breach some of these problems you refer to.

    Regressive views like yours do nothing to advance the concept of a union moving forward into the 21st century.

    But heavy industry is actually doing fine. GM is selling more trucks than ever!!!!!

  21. #71

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Benvolio: why are you focusing on heavy industry. Some of that will never come back due to technological innovations anyway. America has other industry areas that are non-smokestack that have long replaced it anyway. Solar, wind, biotech, and of course networking and cloud companies. Ever heard or Amazon?

    You act as if Unions are not needed outside of a traditional plant environment like at GM...

    LOL
    Unions can and will destroy those industries as well. How much of those industries are being outsourced?

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The law goes too far in requiring the employer to negotiate. Further, the "good faith" requirement allows bureaucrats and courts to meddle. The middle class has been enormously hurt by the loss of much of our heavy industry. Unions almost always go too far in their demands, impairing the company's ability to compete. With public entities, it is even worse. As with other price-fixing conspiracies, they ultimately hurt the public.
    So, it appears that you would support Corporate Union Busting, 67 day long Union Walkouts, Secondary Boycotts, and it appears that you think the minimum wage should be repealed. That Corporations should be allowed to pay American workers the same pennies that they pay their outsourced labor. Very Interesting. As a point of fact, price fixing is not a union thing. Price fixing is done by corporations, when they conspire to set their prices at the same level to eliminate competition. That is why gas prices are the same. That is why gas prices change four times a day. That is why all gas stations prices are within pennies of each other. It isn't the unions that are doing that, that is the petroleum companies.

  23. #73
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Unions can and will destroy those industries as well. How much of those industries are being outsourced?
    Your opinion is valuable to us. Thank you for registering a "no" vote for unions.

  24. #74
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    You act as if Unions are not needed outside of a traditional plant environment like at GM...
    LOL

    Unions are mostly needed at this point in occupations that can't be outsourced.

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  25. #75

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    What you do not understand is that when workers conspire to demand a price for their labor in excess of the market value, the cost is paid by the consumer. It is not much different from two companies conspiring to determine what they will charge for goods and service, to be paid by the consumer.
    I have not said to abolish the minimum wage. Stop immigration and wages will, by supply and demand, rise above the minimum.
    The gasoline industry has been investigated time after time, and no conspiracy or agreement has been found. The reason gas prices change frequently and are similar, is the result of competition as well as supply and demand. If one station charges less, it gets more business, so other stations adjust their prices while trying to make a profit. But if prices just went down, down, down, as you seem to expect, all but the last would go broke. That is why gas prices tend to be similar. It is competition, not the lack thereof.

  26. #76

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    LOL

    Unions are mostly needed at this point in occupations that can't be outsourced.
    Increasingly, unions are forced to retreat to occupations where there is no foreign competition. Outsourcing is a form of foreign competition. Public entities continue to be unionized, but some of them have experimented with outsourcing some work.
    Meanwhile we have millions of unemployed and underemployed. Others permanently out of the labor market and/or living on welfare and crime.
    Last edited by Benvolio; August 7th, 2013 at 05:07 AM.

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    It's so good that you and big businesses are here to determine which price is in excess of the market value and which isn't. Whatever would we possibly do without you?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  28. #78

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Nope. Wrong as always. Market value is determined by supply and demand. If the employer has trouble hiring good people it will need to pay more. If plenty of workers are available, the employer will not need to pay more for new people. Loner range, the surplus pulls wages down.
    Unions like other price fixing, exist to coerce employers (and consumers) to pay more than market value unless and until competition impairs tha employer.

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    ^At least you acknowledge the effects of unions on increasing competition in the marketplace. And congratulations a post without the "o" word. I am shocked but knew you could do it. ROFL

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Benvolio would outsource unions too....lol...that was a joke.

  31. #81

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    ^At least you acknowledge the effects of unions on increasing competition in the marketplace. And congratulations a post without the "o" word. I am shocked but knew you could do it. ROFL
    Nonsense. Unions eventually impair the ability of their victims to compete by driving up the company's labor costs.
    Last edited by Benvolio; August 7th, 2013 at 12:08 PM.

  32. #82

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    See my response 62. Unions should be allowed. Employers should not be required to negotiate. But of course most of the damage has been done. We have lost much heavy industry. Repealing unnecessary burdens of employment laws might help some of it come back.
    Would you favor repealing child labor laws? How about mine safety laws?

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nonsense. Unions eventually impair the ability of their victims to compete by driving up the company's labor costs.
    Cite an example as proof to back up your vacuous claim. Otherwise, it is you spouting nonsense. Victims? Wow...what a drama.

  34. #84

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Cite an example as proof to back up your vacuous claim. Otherwise, it is you spouting nonsense. Victims? Wow...what a drama.
    Sure. Here is an article on the trucking industry. As the author states, most unionized carriers have gone out of business.http://www.1-888-no-union.com/teamst...fbusiness.html
    Also look at the sad history of the great International Harvester Company.
    Last edited by Benvolio; August 8th, 2013 at 04:52 AM.

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    An article from a site called "1-888-no-union.com". You got some commentary on black youth from a KKK site as well? Or the FRC page on gay marriage maybe?
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Here's a way in which American unions have failed:

    they haven't stepped up to support their fellow workers against those who degrade wages, deny benefits, and ship jobs overseas. If American unions were doing their jobs, there would be a wall of pickets around every Walmart, demanding that they stop preferring foreigners to Americans, and that they stop stealing the results of the increase in productivity from those whose jobs they don't destroy.

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    ^ And, Kuli, they COULD definitely do this with no consequences at all.

    Do we really think that Walmart would just go ahead and outsource EVEN MORE suppliers from Overseas? There's almost nothing left that hasn't already been outsourced.

    Do we really think that Walmart would retaliate by closing all their stores and moving those overseas? That would not work for them AT ALL, because nearly ALL in-person (bricks-and-mortar) shopping is "local" and it cannot be outsourced.
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    You know that corporate office at Wal-Mart would demand that the stores being picketed call the police to have the demonstrators charged with trespass. This would also bring the media to the stores, and with the possible exception of fox, it would be all over the evening news. Now, where are those picketers? Any Volunteers?

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I don't understand how some of you attack unions. You think they are some spooky organization out to get capitalism but I would suggest you look up the American history of unions and why they came into existence. If you attack unions, you are attacking the American worker. Unions have played a big role in developing the bi-partisan sacred middle-class. They also represent some of the most important jobs in our society including teachers, police officers, doctors, nurses, firefighters, manufacturers, and shippers.
    The problem is that those unions don't resemble the ones we have today.

  40. #90
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    That's a very broad statement to make, and as someone working in a unionized field, I gotta say it's not accurate.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    unions definitely work, i belong to one. the problem with Detroit is that conservatives will use a crisis to dismantle scapegoats, see Iraq War and 9-11.


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