JustUsBoys.com gay porn forum

logo

remove these banner ads by becoming a JUB Supporter.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 91
  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    7,196
    Blog Entries
    1

    Code of Conduct

    Have American Unions failed?

    The bankruptcy of Detroit for some is yet another nail in the coffin for US collective bargaining? Is this sort of Socialism failing in the face of omnipotent capitalism or is there some other explanation why unions "just don't work in the end"...

  2. #2

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    thinking trade unions like anti-racist NAACP and the UK anti-slavery league are just the victims of their own success . Originally armed street fighters now elderly gentlemen in offices who keep their paperwork in good order . When was the last decade we had a general strike ? Black Panthers ?

  3. #3

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Molotov cocktails to golf clubs .

  4. #4

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Yes, they failed.

  5. #5
    Likes cock.
    ChickenGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brighton, England
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    5,207

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    No the unions HAVEN'T failed. What happened was the heavy industries as a whole were out-competed and out-sourced. The jobs all went overseas, either to places like the more innovative Japan and South Korea if they were hi-tech electronics and automotive, or to India if they mass-produced goods involving little skill.

    Corporations with (as usual) more interest in their stockholders and their balance books INSTEAD of their employees readily abandoned American workers (and western European ones too for that matter) for the preferred unregulated slave-labour in dirt-poor countries that suits their profits and revenues more.

    I just LOVE how all this has been spun in America into a union-bashing tirade, declaring them solely responsible for all of Detroit's problems and supposedly foreshadowing their demise.

    I thought that most of the CE&P regulars here are Democrat voters, therefore ideologically to the left? Why then am I the only one around here defending and speaking up in favour of fair and just representation and rights for (mostly) low-grade blue collar workers?

  6. #6

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Unions are price fixing conspiracies. Like all price fixing conspiracies, whether between businesses or in unions, they exist to gouge the consumer, forcing them to pay more for goods and services than their market value.
    So long as American industry was dominant throughout the world, in the 40s,50s and into the 60s, unions were in their golden age. They could squeeze and squeeze and get what they demanded, driving prices higher and quality down. BUT then foreign competition happened. Much of our heavy industry was simply destroyed, but the inability to compete. But unions must demand more and more, because workers will stop paying the dues if they stop getting more benefits. The loss of our heavy industry represents a tremendous victory for the labor bosses.
    Competition creates a ceiling, limiting what companies can charge and thus limiting what they can pay in total labor costs, including taxes, benefits, insurance, lawsuits, etc. As a result unions in industry are smaller than once. But their damage continues. The auto industry, for instance survives, by outsourcing as much labor as possible, But eventually the unions will succeed in destroying the industry.
    Public employee unions are somewhat different, with no competition. When they squeeze, the money has to come from taxes. But, the unions are able to use members votes and dues to get their own friends -Democrats- elected. Their friends, reward the unions with higher ever higher salaries and lucrative retirements. The public does not realize what is happening until the huge pensions start coming due and taxpayers revolt at the tax bill.
    Liberal thinking is controlled by their marxist stereotype. Employers are evil and infinitely rich, employees are poor 1930s depression victims, totally devoid of greed. Most importantly, union bosses subsidize Democrats with union dues and Democrats reward them with anti-employer legislation.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 28th, 2013 at 06:26 AM.

  7. #7
    JUB Addict
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,595
    Blog Entries
    16

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    put people first is the easiest way to explain my position.


  8. #8

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Unions are like democracy: It's the worst thing to have except you wouldn't want the alternatives. They suck but try to get a good deal without one.

  9. #9
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,921

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    As a musician, I can say that I would starve without unions...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    7,196
    Blog Entries
    1

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    No the unions HAVEN'T failed. What happened was the heavy industries as a whole were out-competed and out-sourced. The jobs all went overseas, either to places like the more innovative Japan and South Korea if they were hi-tech electronics and automotive, or to India if they mass-produced goods involving little skill.

    So, because the jobs went overseas the need for collective bargaining went away? I don't think so! The unions still would have some of their original purpose

    Corporations with (as usual) more interest in their stockholders and their balance books INSTEAD of their employees readily abandoned American workers (and western European ones too for that matter) for the preferred unregulated slave-labour in dirt-poor countries that suits their profits and revenues more.

    I just LOVE how all this has been spun in America into a union-bashing tirade, declaring them solely responsible for all of Detroit's problems and supposedly foreshadowing their demise.

    I thought that most of the CE&P regulars here are Democrat voters, therefore ideologically to the left? Why then am I the only one around here defending and speaking up in favour of fair and just representation and rights for (mostly) low-grade blue collar workers?
    You must have a nice rose to your tinted glasses to think that way. Unions can be corrupt as hell and still accomplish their objectives or even change in the face of some of those changes you mention (outsourcing). The need as a go-between between labor not Labour (he he) and management is surely on-going. But rest assured there is nothing fair and just on either side or in the negotiations. Never was.
    And why bring Left into this. That alignment isn't even simplistic. It's wrong since most unions aren't Left. There was a time they were when the simple dichotomous polity existed in the US. Certainly not true. Unions have gasp...even Libertarians and Conservatives!

    Bashing unions? Noooo...just seeing if they are corrupt enough to balance their real or imagined opposition.

    Crusade of wolves in fuzzy blankets.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    7,196
    Blog Entries
    1

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Unions are price fixing conspiracies. Like all price fixing conspiracies, whether between businesses or in unions, they exist to gouge the consumer, forcing them to pay more for goods and services than their market value.
    So long as American industry was dominant throughout the world, in the 40s,50s and into the 60s, unions were in their golden age. They could squeeze and squeeze and get what they demanded, driving prices higher and quality down. BUT then foreign competition happened. Much of our heavy industry was simply destroyed, but the inability to compete. But unions must demand more and more, because workers will stop paying the dues if they stop getting more benefits. The loss of our heavy industry represents a tremendous victory for the labor bosses.
    Competition creates a ceiling, limiting what companies can charge and thus limiting what they can pay in total labor costs, including taxes, benefits, insurance, lawsuits, etc. As a result unions in industry are smaller than once. But their damage continues. The auto industry, for instance survives, by outsourcing as much labor as possible, But eventually the unions will succeed in destroying the industry.
    Public employee unions are somewhat different, with no competition. When they squeeze, the money has to come from taxes. But, the unions are able to use members votes and dues to get their own friends -Democrats- elected. Their friends, reward the unions with higher ever higher salaries and lucrative retirements. The public does not realize what is happening until the huge pensions start coming due and taxpayers revolt at the tax bill.
    Liberal thinking is controlled by their marxist stereotype. Employers are evil and infinitely rich, employees are poor 1930s depression victims, totally devoid of greed. Most importantly, union bosses subsidize Democrats with union dues and Democrats reward them with anti-employer legislation.
    Sure...but are unions anti-competitive amongst themselves. They are like the homeless quite territorial.

  12. #12
    Thankfully Liberal & Gay
    frankfrank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Illinois (Agent Provocateur and Refujiunderground you can do it)
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    15,458
    Blog Entries
    5

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    No the unions HAVEN'T failed. What happened was the heavy industries as a whole were out-competed and out-sourced. The jobs all went overseas,
    It doesn't help that the USA tax code (helped along with, no doubt, a lot of secret hush money to help assure this would happen) has been written in a way to say "HEY, CORPORATIONS, **PLEASE** SHIP YOUR JOBS OVERSEAS!!! We will give you TONS of tax breaks!!"
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    7,196
    Blog Entries
    1

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Heavy industry may also expand overseas in search of new markets. Take the heavy truck industry as an example. It would be nice to think of Cummins as a good old yank company but fact is they outsourced a lot because of strategic business decisions which had little to do with unions. China was seen as a huge opportunity for expansion of their business. Of course, one can follow the money back and argue China expansion was "made possible" by anti-competiveness fostered by trade unions...ugh...complex! But your tax argument holds at least some water and corporations do make decisions swayed by such tax breaks. Again, little to do with unions though.
    Last edited by cgymike; July 28th, 2013 at 04:37 PM.

  14. #14
    still gluten free chrisrobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,248

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    .
    Definitely. Except for union demands:

    • The 40 hour work week.
    • Time and a half for hours over 40.
    • Vacations
    • Holidays
    • Personal days
    • Sick days
    • Health insurance
    • Paid maternity leave
    • Workman's comp
    • Collective bargaining

    Sooner or later, these provisions will result in America's demise. Workers are nothing but a bunch of mercenary bloodsuckers that negatively affect a corporation's bottom line. Immigrant workers make it even worse!
    Last edited by chrisrobin; July 28th, 2013 at 09:19 PM.


  15. #15
    Bammer's Papa
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    103,495
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Yes, in two ways:

    The wealthy unions became unions for getting more wealth, and contributed in part to problems with companies going overseas, but more in giving unions a bad name as just another organization devoted to greed. By demanding wages at ten times or more the minimum, they made "union" a synonym for "corrupt" and "grasping". That in turn led to....

    Neglecting the workers who really needed -- and still need -- the solidarity a union can bring to balance the power of corporations, to insist on being paid justly for the value of their labor.

    To address the needs of those on the bottom, the U.S. needs unions to represent a good quarter of the work force. But at the same time, the country needs the unions at the top to chill and be sensible.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #16
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Holdenville
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    1,494

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    .
    Definitely. Except for union demands:

    • The 40 hour work week.
    • Time and a half for hours over 40.
    • Vacations
    • Holidays
    • Personal days
    • Sick days
    • Health insurance
    • Paid maternity leave
    • Workman's comp
    • Collective bargaining

    Sooner or later, these provisions will result in America's demise. Workers are nothing but a bunch of mercenary bloodsuckers that negatively affect a corporation's bottom line. Immigrant workers make it even worse!
    Hmm, Then why is it that Sweden and Germany has all of these things, and even more; more vacation, more maternity leave, paternity leave, and more holidays, yet Mercedes, Volkswagen, Seat, Skoda, Volvo, Saab, Porsche, and Audi seem to be doing just fine. I don't think that the problem is all the unions fault, I think there is a good amount of greed to go around between everyone.

  17. #17
    of the 99%
    Just_Believe18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    9,207

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    I don't understand how some of you attack unions. You think they are some spooky organization out to get capitalism but I would suggest you look up the American history of unions and why they came into existence. If you attack unions, you are attacking the American worker. Unions have played a big role in developing the bi-partisan sacred middle-class. They also represent some of the most important jobs in our society including teachers, police officers, doctors, nurses, firefighters, manufacturers, and shippers.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  18. #18
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Holdenville
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    1,494

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Except that now, most of the manufacturing jobs, the mainstay and primary reason Unions came to be are gone from our shores.

  19. #19

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I don't understand how some of you attack unions. You think they are some spooky organization out to get capitalism but I would suggest you look up the American history of unions and why they came into existence. If you attack unions, you are attacking the American worker. Unions have played a big role in developing the bi-partisan sacred middle-class. They also represent some of the most important jobs in our society including teachers, police officers, doctors, nurses, firefighters, manufacturers, and shippers.
    Unions are forced to go too far. If they stop making demands for more and more, they start losing members. Why pay the big dues to support the labor bosses if the unions are not producing? And when they demand and get too much, they impair the company.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 29th, 2013 at 04:30 AM.

  20. #20
    Bammer's Papa
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    103,495
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I don't understand how some of you attack unions. You think they are some spooky organization out to get capitalism but I would suggest you look up the American history of unions and why they came into existence. If you attack unions, you are attacking the American worker. Unions have played a big role in developing the bi-partisan sacred middle-class. They also represent some of the most important jobs in our society including teachers, police officers, doctors, nurses, firefighters, manufacturers, and shippers.
    Unions have also played a big role in making things cost more, keeping freedom to have a job restricted, and harming anyone who doesn't belong. Many people here cheered on my grandmother when she quite publicly attacked unions on strike, because those striking workers were costing others jobs and endangering people's health and homes -- she got involved when strikers physically assaulted people trying to get into a store which was the only source of a product prescribed by their doctors.

    And I've also watched established unions deliberately oppose the formation of new unions to help other workers, which resulted in hundreds of people continuing to get barely minimum wage with no benefits of any kind.

    So it's easy to attack unions. The sad thing is that this reality means that many people forget how necessary unions have been, and remain, for millions of people -- and are needed for tens of millions who don't have them.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; July 29th, 2013 at 12:11 PM. Reason: stupid "update" message duplication

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #21
    still gluten free chrisrobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,248

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    Hmm, Then why is it that Sweden and Germany has all of these things, and even more; more vacation, more maternity leave, paternity leave, and more holidays, yet Mercedes, Volkswagen, Seat, Skoda, Volvo, Saab, Porsche, and Audi seem to be doing just fine. I don't think that the problem is all the unions fault, I think there is a good amount of greed to go around between everyone.
    I was being sarcastic. The bulleted points have been beneficial to labor. Corporations and Republicon governors are trying to destroy the unions.




    i


  22. #22

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    They eventually destroy the unionized entity. Notice how even the post office is being consumed.

  23. #23
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Boston
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Open Relationship
    Posts
    8,839
    Blog Entries
    3

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    I would say "public/government" unions are a colossal failure.

  24. #24
    Thankfully Liberal & Gay
    frankfrank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Illinois (Agent Provocateur and Refujiunderground you can do it)
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    15,458
    Blog Entries
    5

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post

    • The 40 hour work week.
    • Time and a half for hours over 40.
    • Vacations
    • Holidays
    • Personal days
    • Sick days
    • Health insurance
    • Paid maternity leave
    • Workman's comp
    • Collective bargaining
    And probably the abolition of hard child labor as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yes, in two ways:

    The wealthy unions became unions for getting more wealth, and contributed in part to problems with companies going overseas, but more in giving unions a bad name as just another organization devoted to greed. By demanding wages at ten times or more the minimum, they made "union" a synonym for "corrupt" and "grasping". That in turn led to....

    Neglecting the workers who really needed -- and still need -- the solidarity a union can bring to balance the power of corporations, to insist on being paid justly for the value of their labor.

    To address the needs of those on the bottom, the U.S. needs unions to represent a good quarter of the work force. But at the same time, the country needs the unions at the top to chill and be sensible.
    I think that Detroit autoworkers were getting something like $18 an hour (or it might have been $30 or $40 an hour including all benefits, I forget these exact amounts, I heard them too many decades ago) in the mid-1970's, which was more than twice as much as I was getting from a professional federal job as an auditor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    They eventually destroy the unionized entity. Notice how even the post office is being consumed.
    A total crock. They're being destroyed because Congress (and I blame it absolutely 100% on Republi-Cons, who put the poison pill into a bill that had to be passed, in 2006) requires the Post Office to *PREFUND 75 YEARS* of health care and retirement pensions for future workers, a burden that no other company anywhere in the history of the world has ever been forced into.

    They were given only ten years to sink this 75 years worth of money (adding up into many tens of billions of dollars) into an escrow or whatever the arrangement is. I fully expect all that money to be stolen, most likely by Republicans, because they LOVE to trash good things like retirements and health care.

    Being a Federally-regulated utility, they are subject to the whim of politicians, in how they are regulated.

    They do NOT receive the big government subsidies which is always a talking point of those on the right, either.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  25. #25

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Unions haven't failed. Capitalism and right-wing Republican ideology have failed American workers.

  26. #26
    Oh, cum now! peeonme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    1,691

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    There is plenty of blame to go around, greedy capitalists who will do anything to increase their profits and lazy uneducated, untrained
    and uncaring workers.
    I have seen both sides, I know when my boss is lying, his lips are moving.
    When he turns his back it's time to screw off and on it goes.
    Unions in their early days did much good, better and safer work conditions, being treated as a human, then they started to protect the drunk, the slacker and the lazy.
    Wages were not based on the law of supply and demand, but rather on demands and threats of strikes, it was an artificial wage, not one based on market value in a persons ability.
    Management and labor are diametrically opposed, the twain shall never meet and capitalism will die.
    Man kind must shrug off laziness and greed, accept the universal brotherhood of all people if we are to progress as a species.

  27. #27

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    The purpose of a union is to be in an adversarial position with the employer. The union must keep the employees unhappy. If they become satisfied they stop paying the dues. Labor greed vs employer greed. Eventually the union wins.

  28. #28
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Holdenville
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    1,494

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The purpose of a union is to be in an adversarial position with the employer. The union must keep the employees unhappy. If they become satisfied they stop paying the dues. Labor greed vs employer greed. Eventually the union wins.
    Obviously, you have never been a union member. You are completely in the dark on this as in most other matters.

  29. #29
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,921

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Benvolio, can you explain why workers' salaries were so much lower before unions and why there is such a huge difference between the salaries of unionized and non-unionized workers doing the same job? Also, could you tell us why will employers not lower wages without the unions to stand in their way?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  30. #30

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Benvolio, can you explain why workers' salaries were so much lower before unions and why there is such a huge difference between the salaries of unionized and non-unionized workers doing the same job? Also, could you tell us why will employers not lower wages without the unions to stand in their way?
    I think you are seriously exaggerating the difference, if any exists. Please provide some specific instances of the difference before and after.

  31. #31
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,921

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I think you are seriously exaggerating the difference, if any exists. Please provide some specific instances of the difference before and after.
    Seriously? "If any exists"? I might make the effort of digging up some data tomorrow (though I hope someone does it before me cause I don't know where to look), but in my field the pay is literally double and triple for union gigs. Sometimes more. Also, hotel and airport workers in Chicago are not unionized and get paid around minimum wage. Those in NYC are unionized and get paid over $10-12 an hour.

    But the mere fact that you can say "if any exists" shows you have not the vaguest idea of anything related to unions and are completely ignorant on the subject. THE SOLE PURPOSE of their existence and creation has been to guarantee workers higher wages and a wall against big employers' attacks. To not be aware of their most basic function implies that you are just repeating propaganda on a subject you are entirely clueless of. That's not ok.
    Last edited by Rolyo85; July 31st, 2013 at 01:03 AM.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  32. #32
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Holdenville
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    1,494

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Rolyo, Just Google "wages for union and non-union workers in the same job" Here are a few items it will give you:

    http://www.seiu.org/a/ourunion/resea...nd-figures.php
    The median weekly earnings of union workers are 28 percent higher than non-union workers.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/...workers-wages/
    The median private-sector union member made $878 a week in 2011 compared to $716 for nonmembers, a nearly 23% premium. (The premium was somewhat smaller in the manufacturing sector: $836 per week for union members for $780 per week for nonmembers.) Such comparisons have limited value since there are numerous other variables that affect wages. But to the extent there is a union wage premium, the added cost of dues doesn’t appear to negate it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_wage_premium
    One of the characteristics of a union is to try to bargain and negotiate wages and hours. Unions also try to reduce or eliminate pay discrimination and low wages.[1] The wage gap of non-union workers and unionized workers since the 1970s has varied between 21% and 32% in the U.S.

    http://rwdsu.info/why-unions.htm
    The Union Difference
    Who benefits from having a union in the work place? The answer is just about everyone.
    According to studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Labor and compiled by the AFL-CIO, unionized workers enjoy higher wages, better benefits and pensions and have greater job security than workers who don’t have a union. In almost every industry union workers fare better than non-union workers performing the same type of jobs.


    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
    Highlights from the 2012 data:

    --Public-sector workers had a union membership rate (35.9 percent) more than
    five times higher than that of private-sector workers (6.6 percent). (See
    table 3.)

    --Workers in education, training, and library occupations and in protective
    service occupations had the highest unionization rates, at 35.4 and 34.8
    percent, respectively. (See table 3.)

    --Black workers were more likely to be union members than were white, Asian, or
    Hispanic workers. (See table 1.)

    --Among states, New York continued to have the highest union membership rate
    (23.2 percent), and North Carolina again had the lowest rate (2.9 percent).
    (See table 5.)...
    Earnings

    In 2012, among full-time wage and salary workers, union members had median usual weekly
    earnings of $943, while those who were not union members had median weekly earnings
    of $742. In addition to coverage by a collective bargaining agreement, this earnings
    difference reflects a variety of influences, including variations in the distributions
    of union members and nonunion employees by occupation, industry, firm size, or geographic
    region. (See table 2.)


    http://money.howstuffworks.com/labor-union2.htm
    Benefits of Union Membership

    Union members have the benefit of negotiating with their employer as a group. This basic right gives them much more power than if they were to negotiate individually. On average, union employees make 27 percent more than nonunion workers. Ninety-two percent of union workers have job-related health coverage versus 68 percent for nonunion workers. Union workers also have a great advantage over nonunion workers in securing guaranteed pensions.



    This should be able to get you started

  33. #33

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    No one has ever doubted that price fixing schemes are successful. Union price fixing has the additional advantage of being able to practice legal extortion by strikes, and illegal extortion by violence. They are able to use dues to elect friends to public office for the purpose of pushing legislation harmful to employees and intended to be favorable to employees. Public employee unions are able to subvert the "bargaining" by putting their own people on the councils, thus depriving the public of its representatives at the "bargaining" table.
    Then too, they vote Democrat and encourage massive immigration of unemployed people. This pulls down general wages so that unions look more successful by contrast than they would if general wages were not pulled down by the excess labor.

  34. #34

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    That should read "They ....elect friends to public office for the purpose of pushing legislation harmful to employers and intended to be favorable to employees."

  35. #35

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Unions haven't failed. Capitalism and right-wing Republican ideology have failed American workers.
    This sums it up nicely.

  36. #36

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    This sums it up nicely.
    It says nothing at all. Just more tedious tit for tat.

  37. #37
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,921

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    That should read "They ....elect friends to public office for the purpose of pushing legislation harmful to employers and intended to be favorable to employees."
    Not harmful to employers, but yes, favorable to employees. As someone who constantly preaches how much he cares about the middle class, you are showing weird distaste for them being treated well. Oh, and another thing, it's not the unions versus the public. Unions ARE the public. It's big business versus unions, and if you are on the side of big business, it would explain why you don't know shit about unions.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  38. #38
    Bammer's Papa
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    103,495
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Unions would never have been necessary if employers hadn't been hostile to employees.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  39. #39
    Slut vater292's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    202

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    I don't argue that unions were needed a long time ago. They may still be needed to an extent now. But they are too restrictive. I live in Detroit and go into all of the major plants on a very regular basis. (i.e. I am in a different plant pretty much every day.) All I have to say is I am not a fan of union skilled trades. Its about a 60/40 split. 40% of the time you will find a guy that is smart and helpful. The rest just waste time.

    They will take 3 hours to do a 15 minute job. Its completely a waste of time and money. If the unions were not so strict and would allow me to use tools I could fix things faster if there is a stop of production, as well as I could train the technicians in the robotic system and maintenance to get them out of certain situations and prevent certain things.

    If you go in on a weekend definitely don't expect any work to be done. I watched an electrician literally sit on his ass for an entire shift and do nothing getting paid time and a half.
    Last edited by vater292; August 3rd, 2013 at 06:00 AM.

  40. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    7,196
    Blog Entries
    1

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Unions would never have been necessary if employers hadn't been hostile unfair to employees.

    Fixed it for ya.

  41. #41
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,921

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Not much of a punch line in that fix...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  42. #42
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Holdenville
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    1,494

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    I am not going to say that Unions are perfect. I have been a member of several over the years. Some Unions are better than others, and some have grown too big, becoming bogged down in their own propaganda. But the bad Unions are few and far between, but those are the ones that make the headlines in this business driven media market.

  43. #43
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Holdenville
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    1,494

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No one has ever doubted that price fixing schemes are successful. Union price fixing has the additional advantage of being able to practice legal extortion by strikes, and illegal extortion by violence. They are able to use dues to elect friends to public office for the purpose of pushing legislation harmful to employees and intended to be favorable to employees. Public employee unions are able to subvert the "bargaining" by putting their own people on the councils, thus depriving the public of its representatives at the "bargaining" table.
    Then too, they vote Democrat and encourage massive immigration of unemployed people. This pulls down general wages so that unions look more successful by contrast than they would if general wages were not pulled down by the excess labor.
    You are so far from reality. First, there are rules in the majority of unions that restrict the amount of the members dues that can be used for political purposes. Second, Unions do not use dues to elect anyone, buying votes is illegal, they do look at the candidates and rate their performance as it pertains to the union's philosophies. They do make their recommendations to union members and publicly support specific candidates. But don't assume that because you see a union sponsorship of a candidate, that means that the union has given the candidate money. Third, When a union member moves into a management position he is no longer a union member, or he becomes a member of a different union in some cases. Your tired song and dance about immigrants is getting real old. Immigrants do not bring effect wages. Wages are set by employers. If people are willing to work for those wages, they take the job. We are inding more and more, that employers do not want to pay decent wages, this is why places like walmart do not allow their employees to even talk about organizing unions at work. Do you realize that Walmart trains management how to listen for potential union talk and how to identify union organization language. They teach management how to use anti union pressure to squelch organizing efforts, and reduce the hours or let go of employees who try to organize union activity.

  44. #44

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Never heard of supply and demand, Huh? When there is an oversupply of labor, employees can hire by paying less. When labor is hard to find, employees pay more to attract them.

  45. #45
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,598
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    When there is an oversupply of labor, employees can hire by paying less. When labor is hard to find, employees pay more to attract them.
    These statements are confusing.

  46. #46

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    These statements are confusing.
    You are right, of course, it should read. "When there is an oversupply of labor, employers can hire by paying less, When labor is hard to find, employers pay more to attract them."
    And, here is a link to the amounts unions have paid recently to obtain anti-employer legislation. http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=P

  47. #47

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You are right, of course, it should read. "When there is an oversupply of labor, employers can hire by paying less, When labor is hard to find, employers pay more to attract them."
    And, here is a link to the amounts unions have paid recently to obtain anti-employer legislation. http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=P
    Can you name a single, specific, anti-employer piece of legislation that unions have tried to obtain?

    I suppose you believe only corporations and rich people should be able to purchase politicians so they can pass anti-worker, anti-consumer, or environment destroying legislation.

  48. #48
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,921

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    These statements are confusing.
    No, they simply refer to the evil of immigrants. It's not unions we need, it's kicking out all brown people, and then employers will magically raise wages on their own.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  49. #49

    Re: Have American Unions failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Can you name a single, specific, anti-employer piece of legislation that unions have tried to obtain?

    I suppose you believe only corporations and rich people should be able to purchase politicians so they can pass anti-worker, anti-consumer, or environment destroying legislation.
    The hostility to corporations, employers, the successful and the free enterprise economy displayed in your post, tragically pervades the Democrat party and any legislation they have the power to enact. It has cost the US the heavy industry advantage it once had.

  50. #50
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,921

    Code of Conduct
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The hostility to corporations, employers, the successful and the free enterprise economy displayed in your post, tragically pervades the Democrat party and any legislation they have the power to enact. It has cost the US the heavy industry advantage it once had.
    You are aware that MANY members of the Democrat party, as well as all the liberal elite (which includes 99% of pop-culture) and MANY Democrat voters are wildly successful, right? There are non-vampiric ways of being successful without leeching off of an poisoning the country's lifeblood. Not that you or your party are aware of those of course...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | About JustUsBoys.com | Site Map | RSS | Webmasters | Advertise | Link to JUB | Report A Bug on this Page

Visit our sister sites: Broke Straight Boys | CollegeDudes.com | CollegeBoyPhysicals.com | RocketTube
All models appearing on JustUsBoys.com were over 18 at the time of photography. The records for sexually explicit images required by U.S. 2257 are kept by the
individual producers of the images. The location of the records is available by clicking the Custodian of Records link at the bottom of each gallery page.
© 2012 JustUsBoys.com. The JustUsBoys.com name and logo are registered trademarks. Labeled with ICRA and RTA. Member of ASACP and The Free Speech Coalition.