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  1. #1
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Ohio does not permit gay marriage, nor does it recognize gay marriages performed in other states. A federal judge in Cincinnati, however, has ruled that the state must recognize the marriage of an Ohio gay couple which was performed in Maryland.

    John Arthur suffers from Lou Gehrig's disease, and is dying. He and his partner, James Obergefell, flew to Maryland on July 11 and were married on the tarmac of an airport there. The intention was to allow Obergefell eventually to be buried beside Arthur in an Arthur family burial plot that permits only descendants and spouses. In order to allow that, Arthur's Ohio death certificate, when it is issued, must list Obergefell as Arthur's spouse. That is not possible under Ohio's current anti-gay laws.

    The ruling in favor of the gay couple was made by U.S. District Jusge Timothy Black, and applies ONLY to the Arthur/Obergefell case. Black said Ohio's ban on same-sex marriage denies them equal protection under the law. Black noted that Ohio does not permit marriage between first cousins, but that the state nevertheless recognizes such marriages when they have been performed in those states which do allow that.

    The ruling by Judge Black contradicts the ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States on DOMA, which specifically granted permission for states to discriminate against gays (and only gays) in the definition of marriage. That may be why Judge Black emphasized that his ruling applies only to this single case, and not to gay marriage rights in Ohio in general.



    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3639296.html

  2. #2
    Oranje rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Well. It's a start.

  3. #3
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    I think the key here is the inconsistency in Ohio's position: the law recognizes all other marriages, regardless of whether they would have been legal to contract in Ohio. Thus by refusing to recognize one kind of marriage performed elsewhere, Ohio is willingly and knowingly declaring that in that one kind of marriage people are being purposely denied equal treatment under the law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #4
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Indeed,Kulin,which is why if the voters don't take care of this ban,the courts will per the DOMA Ruling.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I think the key here is the inconsistency in Ohio's position: the law recognizes all other marriages, regardless of whether they would have been legal to contract in Ohio. Thus by refusing to recognize one kind of marriage performed elsewhere, Ohio is willingly and knowingly declaring that in that one kind of marriage people are being purposely denied equal treatment under the law.
    The problem is that SCOTUS declared a Constitutional right of all states to discriminate against gays (and only gays) in its DOMA ruling. States are obligated to recognize marriages performed in other states, unless the reason for the refusal to acknowledge is the sexuality of the partners in the marriage. In its DOMA ruling, SCOTUS declared that gay rights are not as worthy as other rights, and that discrimination against homosexuals by states of the United States is perfectly legal. "Equal protection" does not apply, if the lack of equality is based on a complaint of sexuality.

    That's why this ruling is so interesting. It contradicts the Supreme Court ruling on DOMA rather grievously. I am not aware that anyone involved in this Ohio case is interested in appealing. But, if this decision were to be appealed to the Supreme Court, it would not stand. SCOTUS has granted to Ohio (and the 35 other anti-gay marriage states) explicit permission to discriminate against homosexuals in the recognition and performance of marriages.

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    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    No they didn't. http://www.policymic.com/articles/51...ng-rid-of-doma
    http://collinhinds.blogspot.com/2013...-bye-doma.html

    Bottom line,this ruling lays the groundwork for marriage repeals. If the court had wanted to rule the way you said it did,they would have upheld Prop 8.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    ^ Yes, they did.

    Not sure what those links have to do with the court's decision that this is a state's rights issue. I couldn't find any discussion of that on either of those sites.

    The point is that the Supreme Court of the United States says that it is okay for some states to refuse to acknowledge same-sex marriage (even, apparently, when such marriage has been performed by another state of the United States). That means that states are constitutionally free to discriminate against homosexuals in the matter of marriage, should they choose to do so. That puts gay rights in an inferior category to other civil rights. Most civil rights are universal. Gay rights are dependent on your geographic location within the United States, according to the Supreme Court.

    While SCOTUS struck down DOMA, it did so in a way that will allow much of America to maintain anti-gay bigotry within the law for many decades. The court's decision on DOMA was as much of a victory for anti-gay social conservatives as they probably could have gotten. Some day, the USA will enjoy universal gay marriage. But, because of the DOMA ruling, that's likely to be quite some time from now.

    This Ohio case is very interesting to me. The judge ruled in the way that SCOTUS should have ruled - that Americans have a right to same-sex marriage, regardless of their location within the USA. I wish Messrs. Arthur and Obergefell well, but I do not think their case would stand an appeal to the Supreme Court, which has already ruled against them in handing down its DOMA ruling.

    I think the best way for most gay couples in such a situation to insure that they could be buried together would be to have the sick partner die in a hospice in a gay marriage state. Then, the death certificate could list the gay partner as the deceased's spouse. Of course, it is ridiculous to have to resort to such measures in order for a married couple to enjoy the rights of marriage. But, on the other hand, it was ridiculous for Arthur and Obergefell to have to sue in order to assert their marriage rights in the first place.

    Obviously, gay marriage in America is not equivalent to straight marriage. The Supreme Court has made certain of that.

  8. #8
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    I thought only Section 3 of DOMA, the section restricting the federal government's definition of marriage, was up for ruling. To my knowledge, the Supreme Court never touched Section 2, the section giving states the right to not recognize same-sex marriages performed by other states. So, to my knowledge, the Supreme Court has not ruled on the constitutionality of Section 2. To my knowledge DOMA was passed by the legislature and never brought before the Supreme Court until the Windsor case.
    Brad's Search - 70,000 words and counting!

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Exactly,the DOMA ruling only dealt with part 3 and made equal protection part of the reason it was struck down. Section 2 wasn't touched nor was it an issue before the court.
    If they had wanted to make a ruling upholding gay marriage bans,prop 8 would have been upheld.
    Last edited by Ninja108; July 23rd, 2013 at 05:45 PM.

  10. #10
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    t-rexx you are mistaken. The US Supreme Court did not even bother to look at the sections you are talking about. It did not endorse them or validate them in any way. It just did not even consider them.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    It's in Kennedy's opinion.

    PDF

    Almost every paragraph reiterates the right of states to define marriage for themselves, and the inappropriateness of the federal government intruding on this right. While Kennedy did mention Loving v. Virginia once, he is quite clear that this court's opinion is that the federal government should not be overruling the individual states on marriage. And this opinion sets precedent for what cases the court will accept, as well as how it might rule on them.

    Of course, that opinion could change with a change in the makeup of the court, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The only justice likely to retire soon is Ruth Bader Ginsberg, a liberal. We're stuck with a conservative majority for some time. And that will block progress on this issue.

  12. #12
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    BUt there is also talk of equal protection as well T-rexx,which is why several judges have cited the Windsor ruling already in lawsuits. The judge did not pull the logic in this injuction out of thin air,he used part of the ruling that you keep ignoring as part of his basis.

  13. #13
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It's in Kennedy's opinion.

    PDF

    Almost every paragraph reiterates the right of states to define marriage for themselves, and the inappropriateness of the federal government intruding on this right. While Kennedy did mention Loving v. Virginia once, he is quite clear that this court's opinion is that the federal government should not be overruling the individual states on marriage. And this opinion sets precedent for what cases the court will accept, as well as how it might rule on them.

    Of course, that opinion could change with a change in the makeup of the court, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The only justice likely to retire soon is Ruth Bader Ginsberg, a liberal. We're stuck with a conservative majority for some time. And that will block progress on this issue.
    Completely separate question. EVERY state has the right to define marriage for themselves PROVIDED their definition conforms to constitutional equality provisions.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  14. #14
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Completely separate question. EVERY state has the right to define marriage for themselves PROVIDED their definition conforms to constitutional equality provisions.
    Bingo,which is what the judge ruled on in issuing his injuction.

  15. #15
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It's in Kennedy's opinion.

    PDF

    Almost every paragraph reiterates the right of states to define marriage for themselves, and the inappropriateness of the federal government intruding on this right. While Kennedy did mention Loving v. Virginia once, he is quite clear that this court's opinion is that the federal government should not be overruling the individual states on marriage. And this opinion sets precedent for what cases the court will accept, as well as how it might rule on them.

    Of course, that opinion could change with a change in the makeup of the court, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The only justice likely to retire soon is Ruth Bader Ginsberg, a liberal. We're stuck with a conservative majority for some time. And that will block progress on this issue.
    Kennedy was careful to restrict his discussion of the authority of the states to the issue of where the states confer a status of privilege/protection but the federal government steps in to do the opposite, and note that in the case of marriage the federal government may not do this because historically the right to define marriage belongs to the state.s He never once addresses whether the states may deliberately do harm to people by denying their status of marriage which another state has affirmed, thus leaving that issue entirely open.

    So bankside is correct: the Court did not at all address the issue of whether states may do harm in setting a definition of marriage. Kennedy's careful avoidance of that matter stands as a virtual invitation to bring a case addressing it -- and judge Black has now done so.

    It was a very obvious invitation because Kennedy clearly makes the point that the federal government cannot tell states what they must do concerning marriage, while pointedly not mentioning at all that it can tell them that they must honor one another's acts. By not speaking on that issue in the least, Kennedy made it plain that the Court was in fact not giving the slightest affirmation in denying the acts of other states by not acknowledging marriages performed elsewhere contrary to their laws; in fact, by discussing the fact that states do acknowledge marriages performed in other states but which are contrary to their own laws but pointedly not applying that to DOMA, Kennedy keeps the decision very narrowly focused on section 3 and very silent on the rest.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #16
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Well, today I wake up to a good start. I read this yesterday but because of ongoing problems I misread it. I thought the judge said Ohio would NOT recognize the marriage. Yes, rareboy, it's a start!
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  17. #17
    JUB Addict hotatlboi's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It's in Kennedy's opinion.

    PDF

    Almost every paragraph reiterates the right of states to define marriage for themselves, and the inappropriateness of the federal government intruding on this right.
    You have characterized the opinion incorrectly imo.

    What Kennedy was referring to in these statements was the affirmative case for gay marriage, not the negative one. He was saying it is no business of the fed gov to tell states that permitted gay marriage, that it was going to reject that and impose a separate definition. This was what section 3 was about. The case was not about whether it is a constitutionally protected right to outlaw gay marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    We're stuck with a conservative majority for some time. And that will block progress on this issue.
    Huh? Kennedy sided with the liberals on this (and other recent cases such as Christian Legal Society v. Martinez), that makes this issue NOT one dominated by the conservatives. How can you say that progress will not happen on this issue when there clearly are 5 votes for gay rights cases such as these?
    Last edited by hotatlboi; July 26th, 2013 at 10:20 PM.

  18. #18
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    You have characterized the opinion incorrectly imo.

    What Kennedy was referring to in these statements was the affirmative case for gay marriage, not the negative one. He was saying it is no business of the fed gov to tell states that permitted gay marriage, that it was going to reject that and impose a separate definition. This was what section 3 was about. The case was not about whether it is a constitutionally protected right to outlaw gay marriage.
    That's a good way to put it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #19
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Ohio Gay Couple's Out-of-State Marriage MUST be Recognized by Ohio

    One also has to keep in mind the section of DOMA that was struck down dealt with federal benefits and laws.
    Section 2 deals with the states acknowleging gay marriage which was punted on with Prop 8.
    Kennedy could have ruled much narrower on states rights,which would have been a victory for conservatives.
    But he didn't,and as Scalia points out,it isn't hard to use the equal protection arguments that were used to strike down DOMA and apply them to state bans as well.

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