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  1. #51
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    That is a prescription for communism, isn't it? The system is no good unless everyone is held down to a poition of equality.
    1. You obviously didn't actually read my post -- there's no way in any realm of logic that your statement has any relation to what I said.

    2. You clearly don't understand communism when you describe free market reforms with that term.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #52
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    they were getting this specific drug at a specific price, so thy were denying prescriptions for other cholesterol drugs. If you wanted the prescription covered prescribe the drug they wanted to sell.
    Sounds like ILLEGAL RESTRAINT-OF-TRADE, if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    A majority of Americans are happy with their healthcare already.
    I am basically happy with my health care now, but that had NOT BEEN TRUE IN MORE THAN THIRTY YEARS. Medicare is actually allowing me SOME coverage on prescriptions, office visits, and tests - *NONE* of this was covered for me over a period of more than thirty years, though at the end I was spending close to $10,000 per year on insurance.

    Under the old rules pre-Obamacare, insurance companies were allowed to rescind coverage of their own free will: "Oh, we're sorry to see you've contracted ALS and need around-the-clock care. We're canceling your ass. Now, just please GO AWAY AND DIE." In 2003 when I had my cancer surgery, I feared rescission more than ALL other things put together (the cancer, the surgery, and possible infections), because I realized if that happened I would absolutely never, ever be able to get insurance again because of "pre-existing conditions." I was kept on the policy, but I fought the goddam insurance company for more than six months to pay anything and, in the end, they paid slightly LESS THAN ONE-HALF of all my bills. I got left to fend for myself on a good Five-Figure amount otherwise unpaid, because of the insurance company's capricious and illogical determination of what to pay and not to pay.

    I estimate that the insurance company, over the years, MADE SIX FIGURES in profit off of me, by almost never, ever, paying for ANYTHING.

    Much later, I ran into testing where I needed to have nearly $7,000 of testing done, and the same damned company (which I couldn't leave, because pre-existing conditions meant no other alternative existed) covered only $100 of it, and I had to come up with all the rest.

    THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN SO *FUCKED* for so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    He did. You apparently didn't get it, even though you reading. This is not about lowering quality so everyone can afford it. It's about making it cheap enough without lowering the quality. Which - refer to Canada. They're healthier and happier than you. While you cringe in your ignorant fear of "communism", they are treating their citizens with dignity and care that the Republican party wouldn't even be able to compute...
    If health care pricing and quality was simply "in the same ballpark" as any other "westernized" country, the outcomes would be MUCH better than they are.

    No, the Republicans want you to JUST. DIE. RIGHT. NOW. PLEASE. if you're poor and happen to get sick.

    THE REPUBLICANS WILL NEVER SAY IT, but I feel 100% convinced (UNDERSTATEMENT, I'm actually BEYOND 100% convinced) that if the Republicans really get absolute power after 2016 (i.e. President, House, and non-filibuster Senate), they are eager and all-anxious to repeal the federal law requiring healthcare for the indigent. The United States may be a Zimbabwe-in-the-making.
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  3. #53
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You obviously did not read Kulindhar's post to which I was responding.
    LOL

    As I already noted... neither did you.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; July 23rd, 2013 at 07:51 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #54
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Say that in an actual room full of people, and you'd be laughed out of it. People travel to Eastern Europe from the US for dental work, because it is cheaper to buy the plane ticket and do it there (with exactly the same quality of work btw) than pay here. And this is only one example.
    And to Latin America for surgery.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #55
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You're trying much too hard to defend an indefensible position.

    The system is just fine. A bit fucked up due to government meddling, but just fine--for now.
    The system is most emphatically NOT "just fine."

    America has by far the most expensive health care in the world. It is twice as expensive (on a per capita basis) as the second most-expensive system, Switzerland. Calculated as a percentage of GDP, the USA spends 17.9% of its GDP on health care (and rising). Compare that with Switzerland's 10.9%, the UK's 9.3%, or Japan's 9.3%. And all of those countries have comprehensive health care that cover every expense, every diagnosis, and every person in the country! The USA does not even come close to that.

    Despite America's enormous investment in health care, it has the lowest life expectancy of any country in the developed world. It has the 50th best infant survival rate in the world.

    70% of all bankruptcies in America happen because somebody without insurance (or without enough insurance) got sick. 25% of America's elderly will declare bankruptcy because of health care expenses. 43% of the elderly will be forced to mortgage or sell their homes because of health care expenses. Nearly 50,000 people die every year in the USA not because they suffer untreatable disease, but because they lack the financial resources to obtain treatment.

    To describe such a system as "just fine" is like describing Rick Santorum as "socially liberal."

    Healthcare in America is a disaster. It is not economically sustainable. It gets worse every year. If something isn't done, it will lead to permanent American recession or depression.

    Obamacare is a terrible plan. But it is orders of magnitude better than doing nothing.

  6. #56

    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    1. You obviously didn't actually read my post -- there's no way in any realm of logic that your statement has any relation to what I said.

    2. You clearly don't understand communism when you describe free market reforms with that term.
    IF you expect a system to provide and equal "outcome for everyone". It is indeed a prescription for communism. From everyone according to ability to everyone according to need. In any non communist system, people with different abilities and success will achieve different outcomes.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 24th, 2013 at 03:46 AM.

  7. #57
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Thank you, T-Rexx, for summarizing the problem so well. Excellent post.

    Links? I don't need no stinkin' links! LOL (Everything you mention, I've read before - some of it repeatedly - in various places. What you're saying is true, and I've SEEN it in action, believe me.)

    Oh, on second thought, you'd maybe better put in some links, or at least one of the guys who has a number of posts in this thread is going to have a big fit...
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  8. #58
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The system is most emphatically NOT "just fine."

    America has by far the most expensive health care in the world. It is twice as expensive (on a per capita basis) as the second most-expensive system, Switzerland. Calculated as a percentage of GDP, the USA spends 17.9% of its GDP on health care (and rising). Compare that with Switzerland's 10.9%, the UK's 9.3%, or Japan's 9.3%. And all of those countries have comprehensive health care that cover every expense, every diagnosis, and every person in the country! The USA does not even come close to that.

    Despite America's enormous investment in health care, it has the lowest life expectancy of any country in the developed world. It has the 50th best infant survival rate in the world.

    70% of all bankruptcies in America happen because somebody without insurance (or without enough insurance) got sick. 25% of America's elderly will declare bankruptcy because of health care expenses. 43% of the elderly will be forced to mortgage or sell their homes because of health care expenses. Nearly 50,000 people die every year in the USA not because they suffer untreatable disease, but because they lack the financial resources to obtain treatment.

    To describe such a system as "just fine" is like describing Rick Santorum as "socially liberal."

    Healthcare in America is a disaster. It is not economically sustainable. It gets worse every year. If something isn't done, it will lead to permanent American recession or depression.

    Obamacare is a terrible plan. But it is orders of magnitude better than doing nothing.
    You're sounding more than a bit desperate—dredging up all of the pointless arguments.

    Cost per capita is irrelevant. Results are what count. Our five-year cancer survival rate speaks for itself (link posted earlier).
    Longevity is not a measure of healthcare. It is more affected by lifestyle, diet, and a host of other factors.
    Infant mortality rates are not measured the same way in every country. The WHO has a multi-point system for defining it, but not all countries use all of those points. Yet you continue your anti-American blather.
    Obamacare is a disaster, and all it will do in the end is raise costs for everybody.

  9. #59
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    IF you expect a system to provide and equal "outcome for everyone". It is indeed a prescription for communism. From everyone according to ability to everyone according to need. In any non communist system, people with different abilities and success will achieve different outcomes.
    Actually, that shouldn't apply to things like healthcare because that's not a benefit but a SERVICE, and one that every first world country should provide EQUALLY to ALL of its citizens. Health is not a privilege and it is monstrous that the US considers it to be such.

    There are no communist countries in the first world, yet there are many countries with universal healthcare.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Actually, that shouldn't apply to things like healthcare because that's not a benefit but a SERVICE, and one that every first world country should provide EQUALLY to ALL of its citizens. Health is not a privilege and it is monstrous that the US considers it to be such.

    There are no communist countries in the first world, yet there are many countries with universal healthcare.
    Yes, and the system is crumbling in most of them as news accounts show, time and time again.

    Americans don't want to live in a nanny state and suck at the government teat from cradle to grave—it goes against everything we stand for and believe in.

  11. #61
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Actually, all Americans want cheaper and better healthcare. At least all Americans who have had to deal with it.

    And yeah, the whole first world is crumbling, except for the US, because you spend so much money on inefficient healthcare. Thank god for private insurance companies!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Actually, all Americans want cheaper and better healthcare. At least all Americans who have had to deal with it.

    And yeah, the whole first world is crumbling, except for the US, because you spend so much money on inefficient healthcare. Thank god for private insurance companies!
    Polls show that most Americans are satisfied with their healthcare:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/159455/am...-slightly.aspx

    Only the freeloaders and other welfare recipients want it to be otherwise.

  13. #63
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Again - Healthcare should be a right, not a privilege. Otherwise you might as well be third world where only the crime lords have access to good care.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Again - Healthcare should be a right, not a privilege. Otherwise you might as well be third world where only the crime lords have access to good care.
    Wrong. In this country we are guaranteed equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. You get what you pay for (unless, of course, you're on the dole, which is how democrats buy votes).

  15. #65
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    No, not wrong. This is NOT a benefit, not an outcome or something you should have to earn. You earn your money, your social status and everything else, but HEALTH IS NOT A PRIVILEGE and not something you should have to EARN. Any country that decides it should be so, is barbaric.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: House GOP on health care: For repeal, not replace

    Reardon, I don't think you understand that many people CANNOT pay for it. It's atrocious. Please study the healthcare systems of Scandinavia. When you're done with those, move to Western Europe. The Scandinavians are the happiest people on the whole damn planet. They pay upwards of 50% taxes on income and they're STILL the happiest. They have the best healthcare plans, pensions, school options and they are appreciative of the services they pay for. The Western Europeans are the second tier and they're still VERY satisfied.

    Again, it's not a benefit. It's a service. You may make your fortune, but everyone should have access to affordable, effective and quality healthcare.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 24th, 2013 at 11:28 AM.

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