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  1. #1
    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Hey guys,

    So I'm not saying life was better in the closet, but one thing I really, really miss, was the unhindered camaraderie of my guy friends back when the "party line" was that I was straight. It's hard to believe they were *that* surprised when I came out-- the signs were everywhere. Coming out was mostly a painless, gradual process, filled with humor and smiles of acceptances.

    But there's no denying things have changed. While I've always had girls as friends (like any gay guy), I always liked hanging out with the guys way more. I don't know, it's different with guys, and I mean in a totally non-sexual way. The humor and conversation and camaraderie. I never had a brother and my guy friends filled that role. In college especially, my suitemates were the funniest guys ever and we did everything from get drunk to watch movies to build beer pong tables, etc. If I had a shitty day of classes, I'd come back to the suite knowing there was something fun going on (a stupid prank, a poker game, a YouTube video, etc). Guys just have a knack for cheering each other up.

    However, part of that camaraderie, I now realize, is the assumption we're all straight and batting for the same team. We were a "band of brothers" in the war for p*ssy. Lol, it seems silly, but if you actually analyze it, so much of guys' interactions with one another is the assumption that we're all after girls, and it shapes everything we talk about, from workouts to who we jacked off to last night to shows we like, etc. But when suddenly one member of the group is gay, and might possibly be attracted to the others--even though it'd be like wanting to date your brother (sick)--the group dynamic breaks down. I've seen it firsthand and I've tried to mitigate it by saying I'm bisexual, so I can still comment on hot girls. But if anything, it backfires by bringing the issue of sex to the foreground.

    My friends are much more reserved around me now. I still get invites to parties, but the casual Saturday morning phone calls ("dude what are you up today? Nothing? Come over and smoke a bowl") are few and far between. Most painful of all: they won't invite me over one-on-one: seems like there's always two of them or more before I arrive.

    It really breaks my heart. Being gay is lonely enough some times (especially cause I'm not ready to date yet), but this on top of everything else is pretty rough.
    Last edited by rm71182; July 21st, 2013 at 10:00 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Welcome to the world of gay

    It's a long winding road , it's twisted and definitely not easy, not for a faint of heart. I don't exaggerate but if you came from a place when everything provided with security, predictability and acceptance, in here you're your own. It takes time until find your middle ground and be secure with your life.

    But once you're here, you can't go back there..there is only 1 option to choose.

  3. #3
    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by JPGhost View Post
    Welcome to the world of gay

    It's a long winding road , it's twisted and definitely not easy, not for a faint of heart. I don't exaggerate but if you came from a place when everything provided with security, predictability and acceptance, in here you're your own. It takes time until find your middle ground and be secure with your life.

    But once you're here, you can't go back there..there is only 1 option to choose.
    Thanks but no trust me, there was plenty of insecurity in life before I came out (despite how my post may have sounded). I just didn't prepare for the loneliness: I assumed I would lose friends but I figured I'd make new ones by coming out. What I didn't realize was that I would keep all my friends--they just wouldn't be as good of friends as they were before. And 15-something years in the closet (I start counting at age 11, cause that's when I jacked off to my first pic of a guy lol) takes a toll that can't just be undone by declaring that you're out.

    I don't mean to make this post about coming out (or else I'd have put it in another forum). I wanna know if guy-guy interactions among gay guys who are friends can really be the same as guy-guy interactions among straights? Or maybe that group dynamic can only exist if it's assumed there's no possibility of one member in the group being attracted to the others?

    All I know is I just miss being in a group of straight guys and the loneliness kills me at times (like now). And it'll be worse when football season gets here.

  4. #4
    JUB Addict Sultan's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    I'm active duty military also. I'm bi, and still like women, and I've only come out to a handful of people I serve with. Off the top of my head, my best friend, a former female staff sergeant (she was also bisexual), and maybe 15-25 others, some in person, many online through facebook. For me, it was much harder to come out in person to someone than through Facebook, but to the ones I DID tell in person, they mostly took it just fine and most of the pressure of telling them was just in my head. About 5-6 of the straight guys I told threw hints that they were interested, two of which were pretty blunt about it, though one of those two was a very conflicted, homophobic drug addict who is opted to voluntarily separate from the military and pretty much screwed his life up after getting out.

    The whole male camaraderie thing to me never really stopped with the guys I did come out with, because I still like women and can relate to them on that level, but I definitely understand what you are saying. It's sort of like a "club" that all guys belong to I guess you could say, if they are of the same orientation.


    I still sort of wish I was completely out with everyone, in my squadron and everything, but it's hard. I think I have a tendency to make it a lot more of a big deal than it really is and build up too much anxiety or second thoughts about it in my head. I really am not sure how to get past that, so as of now, I'm only really out to friends of mine and other acquaintances.



    Sometimes I think for guys who are gay, and actually fit the whole stereotype of what the general public THINK being gay is, it's easier for them to be out and come to terms with it, but in the military or say, sports team, or what have you that is generally associated with straight men, or something "manly", I feel like it can be tougher. Another thing is, there are so many lesbian or bisexual women I've met in the military who for the most part, have no problem being open.

  5. #5
    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan View Post
    I'm active duty military also. I'm bi, and still like women, and I've only come out to a handful of people I serve with. Off the top of my head, my best friend, a former female staff sergeant (she was also bisexual), and maybe 15-25 others, some in person, many online through facebook. For me, it was much harder to come out in person to someone than through Facebook, but to the ones I DID tell in person, they mostly took it just fine and most of the pressure of telling them was just in my head. About 5-6 of the straight guys I told threw hints that they were interested, two of which were pretty blunt about it, though one of those two was a very conflicted, homophobic drug addict who is opted to voluntarily separate from the military and pretty much screwed his life up after getting out.

    The whole male camaraderie thing to me never really stopped with the guys I did come out with, because I still like women and can relate to them on that level, but I definitely understand what you are saying. It's sort of like a "club" that all guys belong to I guess you could say, if they are of the same orientation.


    I still sort of wish I was completely out with everyone, in my squadron and everything, but it's hard. I think I have a tendency to make it a lot more of a big deal than it really is and build up too much anxiety or second thoughts about it in my head. I really am not sure how to get past that, so as of now, I'm only really out to friends of mine and other acquaintances.



    Sometimes I think for guys who are gay, and actually fit the whole stereotype of what the general public THINK being gay is, it's easier for them to be out and come to terms with it, but in the military or say, sports team, or what have you that is generally associated with straight men, or something "manly", I feel like it can be tougher. Another thing is, there are so many lesbian or bisexual women I've met in the military who for the most part, have no problem being open.
    First, awesome about your military service and thanks (I have a cousin in the army; actually fits your description of a closet-case, homophobic drug addict, maybe you two have met haha).

    Second, you make a good point about guys that are more "stereotypically" gay (let's just say it--feminine--there's nothing wrong with it) having an easier time . They fit the media image of what a gay guy is; a lot of them are closer to their girl friends than other guys, and that's really the key. If my closest friends were girls I'd be fine, but I was a guy's guy before I came out (I'm an avid hunter--mostly dove and quail but deer too--I fish, etc). Don't get me wrong: everyone I've come out to acts like they're fine with it, but then, like I said, the invites start drying up. Esp this thing where my guy friends almost never hang out with me one-on-one. Have you found that? Like they find it awkward being around me one-on-one. That really hurts

  6. #6
    Come again? dereperez's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Have you tried telling them that you feel alienated ever since you came out to them? They may not even know that you've "noticed" them acting differently with you or that you are as affected by all the change as you are. I feel that honesty is the best way to go.

  7. #7
    dances atop the bellcurve fetaby's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    First, awesome about your military service and thanks (I have a cousin in the army; actually fits your description of a closet-case, homophobic drug addict, maybe you two have met haha).

    Second, you make a good point about guys that are more "stereotypically" gay (let's just say it--feminine--there's nothing wrong with it) having an easier time . They fit the media image of what a gay guy is; a lot of them are closer to their girl friends than other guys, and that's really the key. If my closest friends were girls I'd be fine, but I was a guy's guy before I came out (I'm an avid hunter--mostly dove and quail but deer too--I fish, etc). Don't get me wrong: everyone I've come out to acts like they're fine with it, but then, like I said, the invites start drying up. Esp this thing where my guy friends almost never hang out with me one-on-one. Have you found that? Like they find it awkward being around me one-on-one. That really hurts
    Just a couple things. 1, if you've been honest enough to come on out, why can't you be honest enough to find out what the real deal is? I'm not saying you have to stage some "friendship intervention" or anything. But there's nothing stopping you from taking the initiative of inviting yourself along/ over. Apply some pressure and see what gives. Is it in your head, or are they genuinely treating you differently now? AND most important, if they are treating you different, are they aware of it, and are they the type of people to give a shit?

    You say they're friends. Now it's time to really find out.

    2. I disagree about the femme guys having it easier. A) If you're not femme, you can't really say being "closer' to girls fills the gap of not being close to guys. How would you know? B) Femme gays can't stay in the closet as long. Too many assholes give them shit about being femme for them to be comfortable much less covert.

    The things I've seen people say and do to femme gays, including masculine gays, and it's the masculine gays who are getting short end of the stick? Just my anecdotal, not so humble opinion, but for some rough and tumble "straight-actin" gay men, this idea concerning the femmes is just weak transference.
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

  8. #8
    The nice guy from Nice. dpnice's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by dereperez View Post
    Have you tried telling them that you feel alienated ever since you came out to them? They may not even know that you've "noticed" them acting differently with you or that you are as affected by all the change as you are. I feel that honesty is the best way to go.
    This advise can never be repeated sufficiently. Communication is the base of all relationships and you can't expect people to guess how you feel or your reactions to their behaviour. Choose your best mate amongst them and explain your feelings. It can't make matters worse can it and it might actually improve things§.

    Good luck!
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  9. #9
    Porn Star ALBiMale1975's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    `

    Are they afraid they're going to get stoned and "go gay"?

    Seems like self hating, homophobia, at work.
    We all know how it is for "straight" guys with gay "tendencies".
    They are all screwed up until they accept the truth about themselves.


    `

  10. #10
    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by fetaby View Post
    Just a couple things. 1, if you've been honest enough to come on out, why can't you be honest enough to find out what the real deal is? I'm not saying you have to stage some "friendship intervention" or anything. But there's nothing stopping you from taking the initiative of inviting yourself along/ over. Apply some pressure and see what gives. Is it in your head, or are they genuinely treating you differently now? AND most important, if they are treating you different, are they aware of it, and are they the type of people to give a shit?

    You say they're friends. Now it's time to really find out.

    2. I disagree about the femme guys having it easier. A) If you're not femme, you can't really say being "closer' to girls fills the gap of not being close to guys. How would you know? B) Femme gays can't stay in the closet as long. Too many assholes give them shit about being femme for them to be comfortable much less covert.

    The things I've seen people say and do to femme gays, including masculine gays, and it's the masculine gays who are getting short end of the stick? Just my anecdotal, not so humble opinion, but for some rough and tumble "straight-actin" gay men, this idea concerning the femmes is just weak transference.
    Listen, it's not my intention to argue that femme gays don't have their own share of challenges. But my honest opinion is that they have it easier outside the closet, because their core group of friends are already female. If you're a guy in a group of guys and you switch your sexual orientation, it changes everything. They don't see you as one of the group anymore. These were guys I considered my brothers for real: grew up with, went to school with, watched movies with; played sports with, worked out next to, showered next to lol, you get the idea. I feel like I lost 4-5 of my own brothers. And now they don't even want to be alone with me by themselves? These aren't the kind of guys you can raise those kind of issues with: it's more like, the fact that they accepted my coming out but are now acting like this-- that says what their stance is. And I don't think there's anything I can do about it.

  11. #11
    JUB Addict Sultan's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    First, awesome about your military service and thanks (I have a cousin in the army; actually fits your description of a closet-case, homophobic drug addict, maybe you two have met haha).

    Second, you make a good point about guys that are more "stereotypically" gay (let's just say it--feminine--there's nothing wrong with it) having an easier time . They fit the media image of what a gay guy is; a lot of them are closer to their girl friends than other guys, and that's really the key. If my closest friends were girls I'd be fine, but I was a guy's guy before I came out (I'm an avid hunter--mostly dove and quail but deer too--I fish, etc). Don't get me wrong: everyone I've come out to acts like they're fine with it, but then, like I said, the invites start drying up. Esp this thing where my guy friends almost never hang out with me one-on-one. Have you found that? Like they find it awkward being around me one-on-one. That really hurts
    The only ones who I feel like they might feel awkward hanging out with me one-on-one was just the ones I've hit on, or gave hints that I was attracted to them, and even then some of those got over it and as long as I didn't push it on them, they didn't make it an issue, but I've never felt like friends I've came out with really alienated me afterwards. I've had friends who stopped hanging out as frequently when they got into a relationship with a woman, but I didn't really take that as having to do with me being out to them.



    With two guys I knew from the military, I even went as far as making a fake profile of a female on facebook and having dirty conversations; I eventually told them who I was and they were understandably pissed; one of which ended up messaging me back and was curious enough to still wanna meet up and mess around. He was extremely conflicted though and it never went past that; he's now getting ready to propose to a woman he's been with for the past 5-6 months.


    but back on the topic; I feel like the closer you were as friends BEFORE coming out to your straight, male friends, the less likely they will alienate you, but it all depends on the person.
    Last edited by Sultan; July 22nd, 2013 at 01:36 AM.

  12. #12
    JUB Addict Sultan's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by fetaby View Post
    Just a couple things. 1, if you've been honest enough to come on out, why can't you be honest enough to find out what the real deal is? I'm not saying you have to stage some "friendship intervention" or anything. But there's nothing stopping you from taking the initiative of inviting yourself along/ over. Apply some pressure and see what gives. Is it in your head, or are they genuinely treating you differently now? AND most important, if they are treating you different, are they aware of it, and are they the type of people to give a shit?

    You say they're friends. Now it's time to really find out.

    2. I disagree about the femme guys having it easier. A) If you're not femme, you can't really say being "closer' to girls fills the gap of not being close to guys. How would you know? B) Femme gays can't stay in the closet as long. Too many assholes give them shit about being femme for them to be comfortable much less covert.

    The things I've seen people say and do to femme gays, including masculine gays, and it's the masculine gays who are getting short end of the stick? Just my anecdotal, not so humble opinion, but for some rough and tumble "straight-actin" gay men, this idea concerning the femmes is just weak transference.
    I agree with you about the whole masc/fem divide, and that it's mostly masc guys who discriminate, but I think fem guys might have it easier because it gives them less reason to be stubborn and stay in the closet. I can't really speak for anyone though, so I have no idea. Just in my perspective, the way people identify with gay or bi guys and the pressure a lot of guys put on themselves when coming to terms or coming out to people.

    I've had a couple people (mostly women) who pretty much initially refused to believe I was telling them the truth when I told them I was bisexual.

    It's like if a black guy doesn't act like what most people identify with "being black", he will immediately be labeled as "trying to act white". I think that fear of discrimination is similar to men trying to come to terms or come out. Society places a huge expectancy of what a man is supposed to be and leaves a lot of guys torn and completely screwed up. On the other hand, if a woman associates with stereotypical male interests (video games, sports, etc.) it's considered sexy or cool.
    Last edited by Sultan; July 22nd, 2013 at 01:52 AM.

  13. #13
    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan View Post
    The only ones who I feel like they might feel awkward hanging out with me one-on-one was just the ones I've hit on, or gave hints that I was attracted to them, and even then some of those got over it and as long as I didn't push it on them, they didn't make it an issue, but I've never felt like friends I've came out with really alienated me afterwards. I've had friends who stopped hanging out as frequently when they got into a relationship with a woman, but I didn't really take that as having to do with me being out to them.

    With two guys I knew from the military, I even went as far as making a fake profile of a female on facebook and having dirty conversations; I eventually told them who I was and they were understandably pissed; one of which ended up messaging me back and was curious enough to still wanna meet up and mess around. He was extremely conflicted though and it never went past that; he's now getting ready to propose to a woman he's been with for the past 5-6 months.


    but back on the topic; I feel like the closer you were as friends BEFORE coming out to your straight, male friends, the less likely they will alienate you, but it all depends on the person.

    Yeah no offense but fake facebook accts and hitting on straight guys doesn't really apply to my situation (although I get your point about guys coming around eventually to accept you--and fuck, I admire your courage like hell--how'd you have the balls to do that while in the military?!).

    But these were 6 guys I practically grew up with since elementary school. We grew up together, played sports together, had sleepovers at each others' houses to play videogames, chased girls and talked about our first crushes, went to high school together, got drunk for the first time together, etc. We all went to different colleges but stayed friends, coming home together every holiday. I spent Thanksgiving and Christmas at several of their houses, esp watching football. And now everything's changed because I'm gay? I knew what I was doing when I came out, but I can't help but feel a bit stunned. I tried to prepare myself for the possibility, but I'm only human, and it hurts, although it tells me something about guy-guy interactions and the importance of the implicit assumption that we're all straight.

  14. #14
    The nice guy from Nice. dpnice's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    [QUOTE=rm71182;9004164]........... And now everything's changed because I'm gay? I knew what I was doing when I came out, but I can't help but feel a bit stunned. I tried to prepare myself for the possibility, but I'm only human, and it hurts, .............[/QUOTE

    So tell us are you prepared to talk to one of them and reveal that which you have explained here?

    I understand that you may feel unable to do so but honestly it is the only real solution to your problem.
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    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    [QUOTE=dpnice;9004197]
    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    ........... And now everything's changed because I'm gay? I knew what I was doing when I came out, but I can't help but feel a bit stunned. I tried to prepare myself for the possibility, but I'm only human, and it hurts, .............[/QUOTE

    So tell us are you prepared to talk to one of them and reveal that which you have explained here?

    I understand that you may feel unable to do so but honestly it is the only real solution to your problem.
    I've thought about being like "hey guys, I know I came out and it's maybe been a tough situation and all, but I'm still me. And you all said you were cool with it, so what's up?" But I'm worried that's only gonna highlight the differences that are going on lately. And I have no idea how to bring up the fact that none of them seem to want to hang out with me on their own ("uh, are you worried if we hang out one-on-one I'm gonna try to kiss you or something?). Can't see any way to bring that up without super-awkwardness ensuing, even though these have always been (or were) best friends, could talk about anything (parent's divorce, brother's suicide). Ugh, I wish I'd never even posted this cause it's just killing me and it's so embarrassing to get all sloppy about it on a forum post.

  16. #16
    nerd of prey hylas's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    i have nothing constructive to add, but im a little jealous that you at least had that kind of comaraderie before you came out.
    i never could pass as "normal", whatever that means, even before i came out.
    good luck, hope you get it back.

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    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by hylas View Post
    i have nothing constructive to add, but im a little jealous that you at least had that kind of comaraderie before you came out.
    i never could pass as "normal", whatever that means, even before i came out.
    good luck, hope you get it back.

    Hey Hylas! I still wanna get those ashtrays printed of the guy getting rimmed while he smokes a cigarette!

    Now see, I'd never put that on display around my straight friends, but it's like, maybe they can smell it on me-- what a total man-hungry, dripping wet fag I really am. But I still feel like a straight guy (in my mind being gay hasn't forfeited who I am or my masculinity). And I've never said anything to tip anyone off about just how gay I really am lol (ie that I basically wanna breath through one guy's ass while another guy fucks me). That's my fantasy, which I keep to myself lol...

  18. #18
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    They may not have a problem with you coming out, but I'll bet they feel betrayed. They probably feel they were open, honest, and accepting of you, while all the time you were lying and keeping secrets. I'm not saying you were, but that's probably how they feel.
    As far as avoiding being with you one-on-one, it's not you they're concerned with, it's what will people think of them. Why is he alone with you? What are you two up to? Does he play for the other team as well?
    If they were your friends to begin with they'll come around, there are issues they will have to wrap they're heads around as well.
    Just be honest with yourself and friendship and camaraderie will come. My circle of friends is totally masculine (straight and gay), even the women (lesbians), not because I'm opposed to straight women or fem guys, but simply because we have nothing in common.

  19. #19
    dances atop the bellcurve fetaby's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    Listen, it's not my intention to argue that femme gays don't have their own share of challenges. But my honest opinion is that they have it easier outside the closet, because their core group of friends are already female. If you're a guy in a group of guys and you switch your sexual orientation, it changes everything. They don't see you as one of the group anymore. These were guys I considered my brothers for real: grew up with, went to school with, watched movies with; played sports with, worked out next to, showered next to lol, you get the idea. I feel like I lost 4-5 of my own brothers. And now they don't even want to be alone with me by themselves? These aren't the kind of guys you can raise those kind of issues with: it's more like, the fact that they accepted my coming out but are now acting like this-- that says what their stance is. And I don't think there's anything I can do about it.
    There's no real way we could argue this anyway, it's your self-pitying delusion and assumptions vs. provable, demonstrable phenomena. You're saying that you feel like you lost 4-5 brothers? Well femme gays never even got the chance to have them.

    BUT the whole reason I'm even talking about that point in this thread is to possibly help you see, that you're using femme gays as a crutch. You're stuck in a shame cycle and are adamant in your belief that coming out has negatively impacted you. The idea that someone else has it better justifies that you truly do have it bad, and helps keep you emotionally invested in a stressful situation.

    When the real culprit hear isn't shame so much, it's fear. Fear of rejection. But you don't have to try that fear as long as you can transfer the anxiety over towards self-shame. You're taking it out on yourself, and in the process making sweeping and offensive statements about femme gays. It's offensive.

    And now they don't even want to be alone with me by themselves?
    Are you asking, or are you stating. Cause if you're asking, you're asking the wrong people.

    These aren't the kind of guys you can raise those kind of issues with: it's more like, the fact that they accepted my coming out but are now acting like this-- that says what their stance is
    I've already addressed this here...
    I'm not saying you have to stage some "friendship intervention" or anything. But there's nothing stopping you from taking the initiative of inviting yourself along/ over. Apply some pressure and see what gives. Is it in your head, or are they genuinely treating you differently now? AND most important, if they are treating you different, are they aware of it, and are they the type of people to give a shit?
    You're smart enough to come here and type about this, you ought to be smart enough to figure out how to isolate and spend time with one of your friends if you choose to do so. Anything else is an excuse.

    And I don't think there's anything I can do about it.
    You know these people, we don't. It's your decision if you want to know the truth or just assume you do, and from what you've said here there are things you could do to find out.

    But what really isn't needed is for you to make even more assumptions about people you don't know in what these femme gays go through and what their lives are like to live. Do you honestly think they prefer the exclusive company of women? Who knows, it would depend on the guy. But personally, I wouldn't like to spend too much time with women. Cause women, being human, make the same assumptions you did and figure femme guys want to know all about the ins and outs of womanhood. That's just not true. Femme gay men like to enjoy their male privileges just the same.
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

  20. #20
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    1.) Get better guy friends.

    I've been out for years. My closest friends are still straight men. I like the camaraderie I have with them as well. Being gay never threatened that, because my friends don't have their heads up their asses. I go to ball games, grab beers with my guy friends all the time without issue.

    2.) Stop going on about how femme dudes have it easier. You don't know what it's like to be a femme guy. From what I gather, femme guys get dirty looks every minute of their lives for being gay, and then get the same disapproving looks from other gays for being femme. Don't look for a reason to say their lives are better simply because yours has a slight inconvenience. That's no better than straights who claim gays have it easier because we have a parade and they don't.
    Last edited by TheSpectatingLoner; July 22nd, 2013 at 08:12 AM.

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    JUB Addict journo25's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    VERY interesting thread. when i came out i lost two straight male friends who couldn't deal. they asked stupid things like, "hey, when we were on vacation and hit the showers after tennis, were you checking out my ass and dick?" it was all about them. i didn't dignify the question with a response. fuck 'em! besides, more fun letting them sweat about it since i knew those friendships were in the dumper anyway.

    i am lucky that i work in a creative field where many of the guys are gay, and those who aren't are gay-positive and comfortable working among gay guys. they are smart enough to know that gay guys aren't on the prowl 24/7 looking to suck their colleagues' dicks in the men's room and jeopardize their jobs in the process.

    i had to stop and think how many straight male friends i have at the moment... and the answer is not many. i am not a sign carrier who only reads books by gay authors; only watches logo and bravo on tv; only eats at gay-owned restaurants; so it is not by choice. however the fact is: those straight male friends i have are married, and their wives are equally accepting of me and the gay community; equally pro-marriage; etc. not a lot of gay male single friends.

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    JUB Addict journo25's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by journo25 View Post
    VERY interesting thread. when i came out i lost two straight male friends who couldn't deal. they asked stupid things like, "hey, when we were on vacation and hit the showers after tennis, were you checking out my ass and dick?" it was all about them. i didn't dignify the question with a response. fuck 'em! besides, more fun letting them sweat about it since i knew those friendships were in the dumper anyway.

    i am lucky that i work in a creative field where many of the guys are gay, and those who aren't are gay-positive and comfortable working among gay guys. they are smart enough to know that gay guys aren't on the prowl 24/7 looking to suck their colleagues' dicks in the men's room and jeopardize their jobs in the process.

    i had to stop and think how many straight male friends i have at the moment... and the answer is not many. i am not a sign carrier who only reads books by gay authors; only watches logo and bravo on tv; only eats at gay-owned restaurants; so it is not by choice. however the fact is: those straight male friends i have are married, and their wives are equally accepting of me and the gay community; equally pro-marriage; etc. not a lot of gay male single friends.
    Oops! Typo in the last sentence of my comments. It should read: "not a lot of STRAIGHT male single friends."

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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    [QUOTE=rm71182;9004226]
    Quote Originally Posted by dpnice View Post

    I've thought about being like "hey guys, I know I came out and it's maybe been a tough situation and all, but I'm still me. And you all said you were cool with it, so what's up?" But I'm worried that's only gonna highlight the differences that are going on lately. And I have no idea how to bring up the fact that none of them seem to want to hang out with me on their own ("uh, are you worried if we hang out one-on-one I'm gonna try to kiss you or something?). Can't see any way to bring that up without super-awkwardness ensuing, even though these have always been (or were) best friends, could talk about anything (parent's divorce, brother's suicide). Ugh, I wish I'd never even posted this cause it's just killing me and it's so embarrassing to get all sloppy about it on a forum post.
    Dude, you're going to have to get over that mental hurdle. You were able to get over the hurdle of coming-out to them in the first place, yeah? If you want to truly resolve these mental struggles that you have, and if you want a chance at changing things back "to the way they were", then they have to understand how you are currently feeling. They are not mind readers. Communication is key and if you are going to bottle it up inside out of fear of awkwardness then you can't expect them to change.

    Either you do it...or you forever have to hold your breath kind of thing.

  24. #24

    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    Thanks but no trust me, there was plenty of insecurity in life before I came out (despite how my post may have sounded).
    For someone with medicine and beer as avatar ^^.

    I just didn't prepare for the loneliness: I assumed I would lose friends but I figured I'd make new ones by coming out. What I didn't realize was that I would keep all my friends--they just wouldn't be as good of friends as they were before. And 15-something years in the closet (I start counting at age 11, cause that's when I jacked off to my first pic of a guy lol) takes a toll that can't just be undone by declaring that you're out.

    I don't mean to make this post about coming out (or else I'd have put it in another forum). I wanna know if guy-guy interactions among gay guys who are friends can really be the same as guy-guy interactions among straights? Or maybe that group dynamic can only exist if it's assumed there's no possibility of one member in the group being attracted to the others?

    All I know is I just miss being in a group of straight guys and the loneliness kills me at times (like now). And it'll be worse when football season gets here.
    Im sorry to say that the system would be easier when you were in closet. No matter how shy/ insecure you are but if in the end you'll get a girl and mary or do some straight dance, people will not bother with the rest. You gotta stand on your ground stronger in gay realm, if that means to jeopardize your lifestyle, friendship, cliche, business, job, family, etc.

    But here you still have a good news: football season, you still have their interests. So, like S.Loner said: Get a better straight friend

  25. #25

    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpectatingLoner View Post
    1.) Get better guy friends.

    I've been out for years. My closest friends are still straight men. I like the camaraderie I have with them as well. Being gay never threatened that, because my friends don't have their heads up their asses. I go to ball games, grab beers with my guy friends all the time without issue.
    For someone with shitloads of straight interests and living in New york, I think you dont have a reason to brag with me in other thread and perhaps if you might pay attention with demographic of gay guys here, we aren't came from same place.
    The equality still push and pull in many parts of the world, it's a new thing and the struggle of coming out like this is pretty common.

  26. #26
    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by JPGhost View Post
    For someone with medicine and beer as avatar ^^.



    Im sorry to say that the system would be easier when you were in closet. No matter how shy/ insecure you are but if in the end you'll get a girl and mary or do some straight dance, people will not bother with the rest. You gotta stand on your ground stronger in gay realm, if that means to jeopardize your lifestyle, friendship, cliche, business, job, family, etc.

    But here you still have a good news: football season, you still have their interests. So, like S.Loner said: Get a better straight friend
    (1) Haha, touche regarding my avatar. Insecurity's just the tip of my iceberg....

    (2) Thanks for your message and I like that you cut to the point: in some ways, the closet is still the easier option. It's refreshing sometimes to just admit that, and then confront the larger issue, which is that what's easy isn't the same as what's fulfilling.

    The point of my original post (until I started getting all sappy) was that straight guys have a special friendship dynamic between one another, and I'm not sure, in my case at least, I can remain a part of that dynamic now that I've come out. And when that's what you've grown up around your whole life, it's a real wake-up call that, despite all the media portrayals, coming out of the closet is still hard to do.

    Now, I don't know where some people got the impression I was demeaning femme gays, but all I said was, in general, they tend to have more girl friends than guy friends and thus coming out can be less of a disruptive experience. But I never said they had it easier than anyone else. I think people are confusing what I said with what someone else added to this thread. That, or they're misreading what I wrote about growing up hunting, fishing, etc, as some kind of macho chest-thumping, which it's not--I'm just trying to paint of picture of how I grew up with this group of friends and why it hurts so much to be losing them. Hell, it's pretty effeminate in the first place to whine to an internet forum about losing your best friends, no?

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    JUB Addict HunterM's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    As with any transition, there's a period of adjustment...or even a "grieving" process. We are all humans. Instead of trying to hold on to old memories, now focus on making new gay male friends or new straight male friends (who support you being gay) to make new memories.

    Don't wait for your old friends to come around. You have to move on and create new adventures.
    Last edited by HunterM; July 22nd, 2013 at 03:09 PM.

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    JUB Addict mikey3000's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    After my coming out (of sorts), I joined a support group and made a whole new group of friends who are very important to me. Just as important as my old friends.
    Inspired - but too tired.

  29. #29
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    I've got plenty of straight friends, and I don't think there's anything missing with them. And yeah, we chat about sex. We laugh about "how women are" and/or "how guys are", and in fact they start to learn that women perhaps aren't the alien species some make them out to be.

    Lex

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    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I've got plenty of straight friends, and I don't think there's anything missing with them. And yeah, we chat about sex. We laugh about "how women are" and/or "how guys are", and in fact they start to learn that women perhaps aren't the alien species some make them out to be.

    Lex
    See I've tried to take that tack by joining right in when they talk about girls, etc. I mean, I may be gay, but I still know a hot chick when I see one--which is really funny if you think about it, cause it also shows how straight guys are just as capable of telling if another guy is hot or not, though they *never* admit it. But any rate, it doesn't seem to work--it seems to underscore, rather than bridge, the difference, if that makes sense.

    Also, just on a humorous note here, anyone else notice how the issue of *straight* anal sex gets fraught with awkwardness when you're out to your straight guy friends? It's really funny actually-- like, they don't wanna bring up the subject when they're around me, possibly cause they feel awkward, but also cause I think they're afraid they'll offend me. Like, they have to catch themselves when saying things like, "I heard so-and-so is a slut cause she took it in the ass from X," etc.

    Lol, how do you handle the subject of (straight) anal sex when it comes up? And other silly stuff too, like horseplay or getting on someones computer and doing a history search to see what porn they were looking at, etc?

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    dances atop the bellcurve fetaby's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Now, I don't know where some people got the impression I was demeaning femme gays, but all I said was, in general, they tend to have more girl friends than guy friends and thus coming out can be less of a disruptive experience. But I never said they had it easier than anyone else.
    Oh, so this wasn't you?

    Yeah, I have no idea where that came from.... except for the explicit agreement of that exact statement. Lemme guess, agreeing with someone doesn't necessarily mean you agree with them...
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

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    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by fetaby View Post
    Oh, so this wasn't you?

    Yeah, I have no idea where that came from.... except for the explicit agreement of that exact statement. Lemme guess, agreeing with someone doesn't necessarily mean you agree with them...
    Um, right. As I said, I believe they have an easier time coming out of the closet than other guys. Is there something that's confusing you? What we're discussing here is the process of coming out of the closet; if you look two sentences above the part where you're quoting me, you can see that's exactly what I'm referring to. What I did not say, and I reiterated this again, was that they have it "easier in general"--i.e. easier life, etc. That they don't face plenty of obstacles of their own, like being easier targets of homophobia because their sexuality is more apparent in their mannerisms. Seriously, this is the basis on which you're trying to start an argument? Try harder next time.

    "Sweeping and offensive statements" about effeminate gays? How amusing. Look, if you want to mount an argument that effeminate gays have an equally hard time with the coming-out process, that's one thing (why it can't simply be a polite discussion, rather than an argument, escapes me, but oh well). But you want to act like I've demeaned a group of my fellow gays, simply for suggesting (1) they have more female friends, or (2) that they fit a media stereotype (which I never said they created) and therefore, when they do leave the closet, society is less threatened by them because they conform to this stereotype and thus there are preexisting roles that they can occupy.

    Did we happen to strike a nerve of yours or something? Like I said, harder next time.

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    First, awesome about your military service and thanks (I have a cousin in the army; actually fits your description of a closet-case, homophobic drug addict, maybe you two have met haha).

    Second, you make a good point about guys that are more "stereotypically" gay (let's just say it--feminine--there's nothing wrong with it) having an easier time . They fit the media image of what a gay guy is; a lot of them are closer to their girl friends than other guys, and that's really the key. If my closest friends were girls I'd be fine, but I was a guy's guy before I came out (I'm an avid hunter--mostly dove and quail but deer too--I fish, etc). Don't get me wrong: everyone I've come out to acts like they're fine with it, but then, like I said, the invites start drying up. Esp this thing where my guy friends almost never hang out with me one-on-one. Have you found that? Like they find it awkward being around me one-on-one. That really hurts
    Not one of my straight friends has the luxury of hang-out time like we did in our early 20s. Partners/families/careers/mortgages/lawns and gardens all make for a nice "how are you? Good? okay, me too" on Facebook.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    dances atop the bellcurve fetaby's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    Um, right. As I said, I believe they have an easier time coming out of the closet than other guys. Is there something that's confusing you? What we're discussing here is the process of coming out of the closet; if you look two sentences above the part where you're quoting me, you can see that's exactly what I'm referring to. What I did not say, and I reiterated this again, was that they have it "easier in general"--i.e. easier life, etc. That they don't face plenty of obstacles of their own, like being easier targets of homophobia because their sexuality is more apparent in their mannerisms. Seriously, this is the basis on which you're trying to start an argument? Try harder next time.

    "Sweeping and offensive statements" about effeminate gays? How amusing. Look, if you want to mount an argument that effeminate gays have an equally hard time with the coming-out process, that's one thing (why it can't simply be a polite discussion, rather than an argument, escapes me, but oh well). But you want to act like I've demeaned a group of my fellow gays, simply for suggesting (1) they have more female friends, or (2) that they fit a media stereotype (which I never said they created) and therefore, when they do leave the closet, society is less threatened by them because they conform to this stereotype and thus there are preexisting roles that they can occupy.

    Did we happen to strike a nerve of yours or something? Like I said, harder next time.
    To the bolded... Coming out is a process, to be sure. The decision to step out is presented nearly everyday in several ways. Do you always take the step? Do you weigh the circumstance and duck the opportunity? Just one of the subtleties that some gay people do not have the fortune to experience while others take for granted.

    Whether or not it is a fortune is debatable of course, and that would be the argument of which we are not debating.

    You do not have to believe me when I type the things I type, and more often than not my writing is intended for the lurkers. What I find offensive in your posts, is not the particulars of what you are saying about femme gays, but the fact that you are using them as a reference point to mark your own dismal state. It's the objectification to which I object...

    When I read your posts, it reads as if you are saying that since you aren't femme, the betrayal of your male friends carries that much more tragedy. It's worse for a masculine gay man to come out of the closet because he risks losing the "special" bond of his male compatriots.... and if that doesn't read to you as it's easier to be femme, you don't know how the dichotomy you've set up works. Further, if you claim this dichotomy is false, it's on you to prove it so. Not any of the innocent bystanders you happen to inflict with your logic.

    Did we happen to strike a nerve of yours or something? Like I said, harder next time.
    But more's the point, why should I even try at all if you aren't even willing to address the salient points of my posts??? Dodge harder.
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

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    Come again? dereperez's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    Um, right. As I said, I believe they have an easier time coming out of the closet than other guys. Is there something that's confusing you? What we're discussing here is the process of coming out of the closet; if you look two sentences above the part where you're quoting me, you can see that's exactly what I'm referring to. What I did not say, and I reiterated this again, was that they have it "easier in general"--i.e. easier life, etc. That they don't face plenty of obstacles of their own, like being easier targets of homophobia because their sexuality is more apparent in their mannerisms. Seriously, this is the basis on which you're trying to start an argument? Try harder next time.

    "Sweeping and offensive statements" about effeminate gays? How amusing. Look, if you want to mount an argument that effeminate gays have an equally hard time with the coming-out process, that's one thing (why it can't simply be a polite discussion, rather than an argument, escapes me, but oh well). But you want to act like I've demeaned a group of my fellow gays, simply for suggesting (1) they have more female friends, or (2) that they fit a media stereotype (which I never said they created) and therefore, when they do leave the closet, society is less threatened by them because they conform to this stereotype and thus there are preexisting roles that they can occupy.

    Did we happen to strike a nerve of yours or something? Like I said, harder next time.
    Instead of worrying about what some netizens think about "effiminate guys", why not take some proactive steps to get your comaraderie back with your friends? Talking to them about it would be a good place to start.

  36. #36
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by JPGhost View Post
    For someone with shitloads of straight interests and living in New york, I think you dont have a reason to brag with me in other thread and perhaps if you might pay attention with demographic of gay guys here, we aren't came from same place.
    The equality still push and pull in many parts of the world, it's a new thing and the struggle of coming out like this is pretty common.
    In that other thread, you said "what kind of gay friend?" as if gay folks aren't individuals, but accessories. I can state what kind of watch or wallet I want. Not what kind of gay friend. That's why the other thread upset me.

    There are kind straight folks--straight allies--all over the world. If you're upset that your gay friends don't accept you for being gay, guess what? They aren't your friends. And if they are bigoted, guess what? They aren't worth being your friends anyway.

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    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by fetaby View Post
    To the bolded... Coming out is a process, to be sure. The decision to step out is presented nearly everyday in several ways. Do you always take the step? Do you weigh the circumstance and duck the opportunity? Just one of the subtleties that some gay people do not have the fortune to experience while others take for granted.

    Whether or not it is a fortune is debatable of course, and that would be the argument of which we are not debating.

    You do not have to believe me when I type the things I type, and more often than not my writing is intended for the lurkers. What I find offensive in your posts, is not the particulars of what you are saying about femme gays, but the fact that you are using them as a reference point to mark your own dismal state. It's the objectification to which I object...

    When I read your posts, it reads as if you are saying that since you aren't femme, the betrayal of your male friends carries that much more tragedy. It's worse for a masculine gay man to come out of the closet because he risks losing the "special" bond of his male compatriots.... and if that doesn't read to you as it's easier to be femme, you don't know how the dichotomy you've set up works. Further, if you claim this dichotomy is false, it's on you to prove it so. Not any of the innocent bystanders you happen to inflict with your logic.



    But more's the point, why should I even try at all if you aren't even willing to address the salient points of my posts??? Dodge harder.
    Yeah, it's hard to address the so-called salient points of your posts when frankly your posts overall make very little sense. Again, I suppose I simply have to repeat myself so you can try to understand what I am, and am not, saying. I made no value judgement about whether it was "better" or not to be effeminate (again, I stated that pretty clearly in a previous post). It's a fact, though, that had I grown up being effeminate, I wouldn't have had the group of straight friends I did in the first place--blame them if you want for their intolerance, but that's just the environment I grew up in. Had my circle of friends involved more females (or even more tolerant segments of the straight male populace), I would have had an easier transition out of the closet. I don't understand what's controversial about suggesting that.

    Quote: "It reads as if you are saying that since you aren't femme, the betrayal of your male friends carries that much more tragedy. It's worse for a masculine gay man to come out of the closet because he risks losing the "special" bond of his male compatriots." No, I'm not saying it's any worse a tragedy for one person to lose their friends vs. the next person. My point, however, is that the loss of one's closest friends upon leaving the closet becomes more likely for "masculine" gays because they are more likely to be friends with the type of straight guys who are less tolerant in the first place. Like I said, had I grown up as a femme gay, I never would have had these friends in the first place. But you're the one making a normative judgement about their value: I'm not saying there's anything inherently better or worse about having them as friends. I miss their camaraderie because for 16 years they were my closest friends.
    Last edited by rm71182; July 23rd, 2013 at 01:17 AM.

  38. #38
    JUB Addict Sultan's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Meh... this is a topic I was actually thinking about for the past week....


    I honestly stopped trying to rationalize why people act they way the do in situations like this.

    Someone has an issue because they feel betrayed or uncomfortable?.... ok, they were never a real friend and never truly understood you. You text a friend and he never really invites you to do anything, and basically only hangs out with you when it's convenient for them and you feel as if you're a tag along? Great... also not a real friend. Someone you know gets into a relationship and then shuts you out of his life because he or she is too busy with their girlfriend/boyfriend...... awesome, not a real friend, or as good a friend as you thought they were.


    To me, this is why family can be so important and why it's good to have family that you maintain a close bond with. They are going to be in your life in some way or another regardless of what kind of friendship you have with them, so it's so much easier and worth comitting to.

    In the end, everyone is looking out for themselves. My entire life, I'd say I've had hundreds of acquaintinces, but people who are real friends, I don't think I could use more than just one hand to count the number of people who fall into that category.


    Fuck all these other people, and fuck their feelings. Me personally, I can get along with just about anyone, but if I'm going to have a genuine friendship or relationship with them, I either click with them, or I don't. At the end of the day, all these emotions invested on "why isn't so-and-so close with me anymore?" is just a big waste of mental stress and strain. Friends come and go. They're going to fall in and out of your life like characters from a book. In the end, you have to be yourself and be your own best friend.

    Real friendship and love is unconditional, so I figure, if you ever have to convince anyone to like you, or prove to them you're a good, honest person that should be in their life, they're not worth the effort.
    Last edited by Sultan; July 23rd, 2013 at 01:30 AM.

  39. #39
    Slut rm71182's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan View Post
    Meh... this is a topic I was actually thinking about for the past week....


    I honestly stopped trying to rationalize why people act they way the do in situations like this.

    Someone has an issue because they feel betrayed or uncomfortable?.... ok, they were never a real friend and never truly understood you. You text a friend and he never really invites you to do anything, and basically only hangs out with you when it's convenient for them and you feel as if you're a tag along? Great... also not a real friend. Someone you know gets into a relationship and then shuts you out of his life because he or she is too busy with their girlfriend/boyfriend...... awesome, not a real friend, or as good a friend as you thought they were.


    To me, this is why family can be so important and why it's good to have family that you maintain a close bond with. They are going to be in your life in some way or another regardless of what kind of friendship you have with them, so it's so much easier and worth comitting to.

    In the end, everyone is looking out for themselves. My entire life, I'd say I've had hundreds of acquaintinces, but people who are real friends, I don't think I could use more than just one hand to count the number of people who fall into that category.


    Fuck all these other people, and fuck their feelings. Me personally, I can get along with just about anyone, but if I'm going to have a genuine friendship or relationship with them, I either click with them, or I don't. At the end of the day, all these emotions invested on "why isn't so-and-so close with me anymore?" is just a big waste of mental stress and strain. Friends come and go. They're going to fall in and out of your life like characters from a book. In the end, you have to be yourself and be your own best friend.

    Real friendship and love is unconditional, so I figure, if you ever have to convince anyone to like you, or prove to them you're a good, honest person that should be in their life, they're not worth the effort.
    Yeah, I'm not there yet but I see what you're saying. At some point I really will have to move on cause it's tearing me up inside (it's why I've been on JUB/other online chats so much lately haha). This summer I moved back home brieftly and was supposed to hang out with them all the time before I moved to a new city for work, but instead I've just been lonely as shit. I gotta just try and talk to them, like one poster said. Then let the chips fall where they may.

  40. #40
    nf fbt funw glbhuof gmhp SLOPPYSECONDS's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    goody

    thankyou

    UN try it too

  41. #41
    dances atop the bellcurve fetaby's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Yeah, it's hard to address the so-called salient points of your posts when frankly your posts overall make very little sense.
    Well, since you asked...
    1, if you've been honest enough to come on out, why can't you be honest enough to find out what the real deal is? I'm not saying you have to stage some "friendship intervention" or anything. But there's nothing stopping you from taking the initiative of inviting yourself along/ over. Apply some pressure and see what gives. Is it in your head, or are they genuinely treating you differently now? AND most important, if they are treating you different, are they aware of it, and are they the type of people to give a shit?

    You say they're friends. Now it's time to really find out.
    You know these people, we don't. It's your decision if you want to know the truth or just assume you do, and from what you've said here there are things you could do to find out.
    It's been my observation in this thread, that you've been acting from a place of ignorance concerning your friends. You assume the reasons their behavior has changed. When confronted with the idea of informing your opinion, you've retreated into a position of helplessness.

    In that position, you then assume to know what femme gays go through and the dynamics of their relationships. Archetypical behavior can only explain so many things, and IMO, building a theory based on stereotypical behavior to achieve that end isn't progressive or accurate. I stated as much.

    It could be that your friends are also projecting that same assumption on to you. They have transposed their knowledge and memories of you with what society and media informs them of the stereotypical gay male. You were hitting around that hole in your OP when you talked about how the changing of your attractions could have effected the relationships in their minds. But it's entirely possible that your friends are acting on more than a "gay panic".

    What a lot of people don't understand when they come out, is that to you, it's a process that you've spent years rationalizing and working towards. A goal of understanding and defining something livable in a society that up till the recent past has been anything but approving... You've had your whole life to deal with this. BUT, your friends have only had a very short time. And more, they can't readily identify with you because the same reason you were in the closet is the same reason they don't empathize, we've all been conditioned towards the same end there. So what choice do they have but to be informed of the "new" you by what they "know" to be true of gay people in general...

    Assumptions on top of assumptions. The trite advice is that communication is key. I think there's little point to that if you're unable to understand what your talking about. The whole non-argument about femme gays is merely a red herring.
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

  42. #42
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    These days most of my male friends are straight...very straight...a lot of blue collar guys...and my closest friends are hyper masculine "obsessed with tits and pussy" guys.

    I also have gay friends but very few because most of them died.

    I will tell you a secret... though a lot of people hate hearing it. Spend your time making being gay a complete non issue and your friends will react in kind. We isolate and ostracize ourselves emotionally a lot and then blame it on other people.....

    When the guys talk about pussy...I tell them it can't possibly compare to a tight ass...they laugh with me...not at me. People can sense when you are uncomfortable and they become uncomfortable as well....

    Straight guys generally do not want the "I'm still the same person" talk anymore than they want the "Please understand me" talk from their wives...give them a chance to just be OK with it... and it is a lot easier if you make it all a non issue. .

  43. #43
    JUB Addict journo25's Avatar
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    These days most of my male friends are straight...very straight...a lot of blue collar guys...and my closest friends are hyper masculine "obsessed with tits and pussy" guys.

    I also have gay friends but very few because most of them died.

    I will tell you a secret... though a lot of people hate hearing it. Spend your time making being gay a complete non issue and your friends will react in kind. We isolate and ostracize ourselves emotionally a lot and then blame it on other people.....

    When the guys talk about pussy...I tell them it can't possibly compare to a tight ass...they laugh with me...not at me. People can sense when you are uncomfortable and they become uncomfortable as well....

    Straight guys generally do not want the "I'm still the same person" talk anymore than they want the "Please understand me" talk from their wives...give them a chance to just be OK with it... and it is a lot easier if you make it all a non issue. .


    hey, east! long time, no speak. i couldn't agree more about knowing when to make the gay thing a non-issue. i know guys who came out in their 30s and 40s and are so excited about embracing this and telling the world, that they feel they are in a competition to "outgay" their gay friends in terms of marching in every pride parade, only reading books by gay authors, only eating at gay-owned restaurants, etc. enough already! it is not the only way that a gay man defines himself.

    i love your response to guys who talk about pussy (telling them it can't compare to a tight asshole). it lightens the mood and makes things less political and judgmental. hopefully the take-away for straight acquaintances and friends is that: hey! if we're talking about a movie or a ballgame that we can all relate to, how relevant is it that one of us goes home to eat pussy while another goes home to suck cock? it doesn't need to be a part of every conversation. i find those kinds of gay friends exhausting! sometimes all i want is easy, non-provocative chat with my buds, not politically charged debate!

  44. #44
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    See I've tried to take that tack by joining right in when they talk about girls, etc. I mean, I may be gay, but I still know a hot chick when I see one--which is really funny if you think about it, cause it also shows how straight guys are just as capable of telling if another guy is hot or not, though they *never* admit it. But any rate, it doesn't seem to work--it seems to underscore, rather than bridge, the difference, if that makes sense.
    I guess I have to say I find the point invalid, because I find the premise invalid. My straight friends don't have any trouble talking about whether another guy is hot or not. Granted, I don't think they say "He's smoking - I'd totally jump the fence for him" or anything like that. But they can tell, and they can talk about it to some degree. I have a small "group" of four friends that I occasionally get together with, and as it turns out, there's one somewhat attractive guy in the group whereas the rest are more "plain". And they all know and joke about the fact that he's the attractive one of the group. Not constantly or anything, but if I end up setting next to him, they might say "Well, of course Lex chose to sit next to Jerry." "Well, he IS the best of a bad lot." "Hot on the curve, anyway." We all laugh, etc etc.

    Also, just on a humorous note here, anyone else notice how the issue of *straight* anal sex gets fraught with awkwardness when you're out to your straight guy friends? It's really funny actually-- like, they don't wanna bring up the subject when they're around me, possibly cause they feel awkward, but also cause I think they're afraid they'll offend me. Like, they have to catch themselves when saying things like, "I heard so-and-so is a slut cause she took it in the ass from X," etc.

    Lol, how do you handle the subject of (straight) anal sex when it comes up? And other silly stuff too, like horseplay or getting on someones computer and doing a history search to see what porn they were looking at, etc?
    I can't picture any of my straight friends saying "I heard so-and-so is a slut because she took it in the ass from X". Not to protect my delicate homosexual feelings, but because they wouldn't think anybody - male or female - who took it in the ass was a slut. They'd think s/he was awesome.

    When anal sex comes up, I'm just conversational and factual. "It requires more work than oral, but when you do it right, it kicks ass six ways to Sunday." I can't say as they've ever asked for details. As far as the computer goes, I can't remember the last time somebody needed to use mine (we all have our own, and phones that do most of the internet stuff), but I used to say "All the porn is in the folder clearly marked porn. So you can't pretend you accidentally stumbled across it."

    Lex

  45. #45

    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    I need time to read all these shiieet ^^

  46. #46

    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by rm71182 View Post
    (1) Haha, touche regarding my avatar. Insecurity's just the tip of my iceberg....

    (2) Thanks for your message and I like that you cut to the point: in some ways, the closet is still the easier option. It's refreshing sometimes to just admit that, and then confront the larger issue, which is that what's easy isn't the same as what's fulfilling.

    The point of my original post (until I started getting all sappy) was that straight guys have a special friendship dynamic between one another, and I'm not sure, in my case at least, I can remain a part of that dynamic now that I've come out. And when that's what you've grown up around your whole life, it's a real wake-up call that, despite all the media portrayals, coming out of the closet is still hard to do.

    Now, I don't know where some people got the impression I was demeaning femme gays, but all I said was, in general, they tend to have more girl friends than guy friends and thus coming out can be less of a disruptive experience. But I never said they had it easier than anyone else. I think people are confusing what I said with what someone else added to this thread. That, or they're misreading what I wrote about growing up hunting, fishing, etc, as some kind of macho chest-thumping, which it's not--I'm just trying to paint of picture of how I grew up with this group of friends and why it hurts so much to be losing them. Hell, it's pretty effeminate in the first place to whine to an internet forum about losing your best friends, no?
    I totally understand that. Mine was cracked earlier, 2 years of having a high school band, in the senior year I proposed to the drummer cuz I can't contain myself, he's so fine. ^^
    Wrecking all my image in general- and band solidarity at best.

    I get you.

    No, even men in Brokeback Mountain shed his tears..^^ I get what you meant, but it's still one side of coin, the femmes endure another hardship even though they seem to pass in this task.

    The wind of change are everywhere and it's actually good opportunity for us to be who we are, seize it. If you just whining losing friends, actually that's still manageable because friend is someone we can manage inside our range. Job, co-workers and family for sample, are beyond our control.

    So, your 15 years or so male comaraderie cracked, get another well polished one

  47. #47

    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpectatingLoner View Post
    In that other thread, you said "what kind of gay friend?" as if gay folks aren't individuals, but accessories. I can state what kind of watch or wallet I want. Not what kind of gay friend. That's why the other thread upset me.
    Im not gonna overboard with that, our logic just wired differently ^^
    There are kind straight folks--straight allies--all over the world. If you're upset that your gay friends don't accept you for being gay, guess what? They aren't your friends. And if they are bigoted, guess what? They aren't worth being your friends anyway.
    I know that. However, I have personal and impersonal take on that.

    As personal- Im not, can't, won't be the right example for majority gays who can't get along with straight counterpart because Im overly damaged, perhaps have a bit connection with OP in this thread:http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...making-friends
    My social nerve burned badly like a burn victim and I think I behave differently in social setting than most people are. My bff right now is a gay guy like me- he's in my area and he's definitely provide me with things I lacking, he repaired me and it's the first time I feel belonged, accepted and free to express who I am. Like a lost dog found its owner- that's how I get my loyalty to my own tribe (gay guys.)

    As impersonal take- Many of gay man who are completely normal, undisrupted must endure rejection and alienation from straight society and it's still happening..
    Am I a damaged product of that? Maybe..
    Some souls will crumble or strive against the odds, it depends on the person too..
    if you're a people's person, gayness just like dust on your shoulders. Some people don't function like that, they need to be fully accepted, inside circle of trust- etc.

    I believe that our personal take and environment come hand in hand to shape you.
    So despite all the testimonies of gay guys with straight friends here, the alienation from straight counterpart still persist. And I bet both you and I agree that our chance to befriending straight people still RELY on their openness to allow our gay card- inside them/ their cliche.
    It's always we come to them/we interact to them since the day we born and not the other way around ( unless you have gay dads/moms )
    Once they know we're gay and okay- that's like green light for us and after that it's up to us to paint our relationship with them.

    Sometimes we dont have option/ completely helpless like people in our work environment, family member, religious family member or society in general like Im from IN DO NE SI A, have you any idea what kind of treatment I must endure when I was 17 and out among my classmates? How with gays in other region of earth? Not too far, how is gay treatment in latino/black community in US?

    Those people ... we must face them everyday and it's very unfortunate if they shun/ completely erase us from their sight. That's why how many of us..prefer not out at work? I totally understand

    So if you have straight friends, you're a people's person, you're in gay friendly environment, easy going and walk lightly in this matter than the rest of us, there's no reason to brag- consider yourself lucky.

    The question of who can't be integrating? As personal reason- I can't do ^^
    in the whole context- I still think there must be more CHANGE from straighties. As long they (as whole) make differences- I still put them inside a box. Unless someone we know heart and soul- dont cater to them too much, IMO.

    Is there possibility for gay guys to integrating with straight crowds?- if Freddie Mercury can, we can do too.

    As for OP, I hope he won't turn out like me.
    Last edited by JPGhost; July 23rd, 2013 at 12:21 PM.

  48. #48

    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    I've got plenty of straight friends, and I don't think there's anything missing with them. And yeah, we chat about sex. We laugh about "how women are" and/or "how guys are", and in fact they start to learn that women perhaps aren't the alien species some make them out to be.

    Lex
    Oh believe me..they'll think woman are aliens when they marry them

  49. #49
    rip Angalifu
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    Re: Giving up Male Comaraderie to Come Out the Closet

    If your straight buddies don't want to hang out with a friend because he's gay they've got a crappy attitude.

    I would tell them that.

    I would also tell them you're not going to jump on them, and that being friendly with a gay dude doesn't make them gay by association.

    If they can't hang with you after that, you ought to judge them accordingly. Then find yourself a finer group of guys to hang out with.
    “Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.” ~ Mark Twain

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