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  1. #1

    There is no factual evidence

    I've never believed in God. I've read the bible and listened to "God's" word and I seriously can't stand it when Christian-buffs say that they believe because they have faith... I hold no grudges or prejudices agains them, but faith just seems ignorant of the 40 billion other potential Gods that could be right. Why take a one in 40 Billion chance based on a gut feeling. You could believe in God, but what if Buddha is sitting up there dictating the next form you will be born into... At least Buddha existed and there are reccords of him. Agree or Disagree. I love a good debate.

  2. #2

    Re: There is no factual evidence

    You claim Buddha existed? Where is your factual evidence?

  3. #3

    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Buddhists do not claim that he is a god sitting up there dictating things.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    I assume he means Siddhartha Gautama, who was an actual person. Jesus was too; of course that doesn't mean that either of them actually did what followers say they did. You can't prove it.

    It's also somewhat unorthodox to claim that the Buddha existed, because that's just the title given to the "enlightened one" and has had many bearers. Siddhartha is usually regarded as the supreme Buddha, however. And Ben's right, Buddhists are primarily naturalistic and reject the idea that a Buddha is a god or god-like figure. It's simply an ideal of being.

    Also worth noting that Buddhists (and Siddhartha's teachings) does not include a reincarnation cycle per se. They differ with Hindus on that. Siddhartha's metaphor was that of a candle. "Just as a dying candle may be used to light a new candle, a dying being passes life to a new one." or something like that. Karmas do determine what it is, but it's not exactly reincarnation. It's a cycle of rebirth.

    Some sects do describe it a little differently, just as they have different views on the heavens.

    I don't know what point you're trying to make. It seems like a misguided attempt to get attention.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 17th, 2013 at 11:54 AM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by egghead947 View Post
    I've never believed in God. I've read the bible and listened to "God's" word and I seriously can't stand it when Christian-buffs say that they believe because they have faith... I hold no grudges or prejudices agains them, but faith just seems ignorant of the 40 billion other potential Gods that could be right. Why take a one in 40 Billion chance based on a gut feeling. You could believe in God, but what if Buddha is sitting up there dictating the next form you will be born into... At least Buddha existed and there are reccords of him. Agree or Disagree. I love a good debate.
    Some might say that you are a reincarnation of another poster anxious to address their periods of loneliness with lots of exchanges.

    Faith in the deity is never about proof rather about experience and until you decide that you are prepared to think beyond your prejudices I suspect that your naturalistic religious beliefs will remain rather limited by your prejudices.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Why is a naturalistic outlook limited?

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    Why is a naturalistic outlook limited?
    I have not said that it is.....read my post and correct your understanding....this is what I have written:

    I suspect that your naturalistic religious beliefs will remain rather limited by your prejudices.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Some might say that you are a reincarnation of another poster anxious to address their periods of loneliness with lots of exchanges.
    Or he just enjoys the debate.

    Faith in the deity is never about proof rather about experience and until you decide that you are prepared to think beyond your prejudices I suspect that your naturalistic religious beliefs will remain rather limited by your prejudices.
    Are you prepared to think beyond your prejudices and experience the truth about the one true god Zeus? How about Thor? If there is actually a god, a one true god, that god would be god for everyone regardless of who you are or what experiences you might have. Unless you want to claim god to be an entirely subjective construct (and thus negating its very existence), you need to come up with something better to justify the consideration to believe in that god than just "experience".

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    I assume he means Siddhartha Gautama, who was an actual person. Jesus was too; of course that doesn't mean that either of them actually did what followers say they did. You can't prove it.
    There isn't sufficient evidence to show that Jesus was an actual person, son of god or not.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Actually, historical consensus that states the opposite. Roman records (which were excellently kept) identify a Jesus (variant of Yeshua) of Nazareth being born approximately at the biblically described range who was later crucified under order of Pontius Pilate (there are Roman records of that too). There is also a strong consensus that the same man was baptised by a relative named John (Iohanan). Town records, proven to be contemporary to Jesus' life, were found that correspond to a biblically approximate year (+/- 2 in this case). No other episodes have been verified and most are likely unverifiable.

    There is [obviously] no evidence to the effect that he was born of a virgin or was god's son.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 17th, 2013 at 09:59 PM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    There isn't sufficient evidence to show that Jesus was an actual person, son of god or not.
    There will never be sufficient evidence that will satisfy you that Jesus lived.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    There will never be sufficient evidence that will satisfy you that Jesus lived.
    I've just shown how we know Jesus lived, there is no debate over that. We can prove where he was born and how he died, but nothing more.

    As for you, you cannot show that he actually performed any miracles, and must accept that as a function to be handled solely by personal faith. There is no point in trying to provide evidence where there is none. There's plenty of scripture, but everyone must recognize that it's not a strict scientific or historical handbook (well, a good portion of it is historical, save for the miracles, songs, anecdotes etc.).

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    Or he just enjoys the debate.



    Are you prepared to think beyond your prejudices and experience the truth about the one true god Zeus? How about Thor? If there is actually a god, a one true god, that god would be god for everyone regardless of who you are or what experiences you might have. Unless you want to claim god to be an entirely subjective construct (and thus negating its very existence), you need to come up with something better to justify the consideration to believe in that god than just "experience".
    Attributing names to God does not change that which is God.

    The only way that I can more fully know my partner is by the experience of knowing him through our loving relationship.....an experience that I cannot prove to you.....likewise, with God whom I know through the experience of a loving relationship...an experience that I cannot prove to you.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    I've just shown how we know Jesus lived, there is no debate over that. We can prove where he was born and how he died, but nothing more.

    As for you, you cannot show that he actually performed any miracles, and must accept that as a function to be handled solely by personal faith. There is no point in trying to provide evidence where there is none. There's plenty of scripture, but everyone must recognize that it's not a strict scientific or historical handbook (well, a good portion of it is historical, save for the miracles, songs, anecdotes etc.).
    That those who lived with Jesus for some three and half years recorded their experiences with him...the gospels and the epistles...indicates that we know sufficient to be able to believe that Jesus inspired a following that two thousand years later defies the beliefs of those who insist that Jesus never existed.

    Video recordings of Jesus would address many questions...leaving us with nothing more than the words of several of Jesus' closest friends to ponder upon....the rest is faith informing reason.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That those who lived with Jesus for some three and half years recorded their experiences with him...the gospels and the epistles...indicates that we know sufficient to be able to believe that Jesus inspired a following that two thousand years later defies the beliefs of those who insist that Jesus never existed.

    Video recordings of Jesus would address many questions...leaving us with nothing more than the words of several of Jesus' closest friends to ponder upon....the rest is faith informing reason.
    Well, you walked right into my first statement here: Not everything written is true, and not everything true is written.

    The first part needs no further explanation, but the second part might need some addendums. I do not mean it to say that some truths cannot be written. I mean that we have not yet discovered all the truths. The natural laws, if you will (and there's supported evidence to the effect that there are actually several slightly different sets of natural laws and constants, depending on location relative to the center of the big bang). To amend that statement, we will never discover all of them. It's my view that we'll die off by then, almost certainly by our own doing.

    I must differ that faith does not inform reason. I feel that reason (of any calibre), more often than not, informs faith.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    Well, you walked right into my first statement here: Not everything written is true, and not everything true is written.
    The same response can be applied to any historical record. In the case of Jesus' friends they were to suffer greatly even, violent death as a result of their determination to spread the good news that Jesus had taught them...hardly the actions of people spreading fairy stories.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    In the case of Jesus' friends they were to suffer greatly even, violent death as a result of their determination to spread the good news that Jesus had taught them...hardly the actions of people spreading fairy stories.
    Faith is a dangerous thing. It makes all the difference between a perceived fairytale and a perceived reality. I don't think you can disagree that faith is a game-changer.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    Faith is a dangerous thing. It makes all the difference between a perceived fairytale and a perceived reality. I don't think you can disagree that faith is a game-changer.
    Faith in God is the very realisation of our awareness that there is more to life than our perceptions easily identify.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Faith in God is the very realisation of our awareness that there is more to life than our perceptions easily identify.
    It's paradoxical to say there's more to life than what can be perceived. By definition, if you can't perceive it, then its existence or nonexistence makes no difference. Believing in something doesn't make it any more true (and vice versa). In comes faith, which is the only thing you have left at your disposal. The rest you brought into play and then systematically killed off.

    It's interesting that you did not reply to my previous post which means you either agreed or ignored it. I posit that faith makes a difference in perception. Give your stance on that.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 18th, 2013 at 12:20 AM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Everyone has the right to believe or not believe. What I can not stand are gay people who actually attend a house of religion where we are told God loves us and hates our lifestyle. You have to have respect for yourself in this world and that is what I can not stand. Atheist and proud!

  21. #21

    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Siddhartha Gautama is precisely who I wished to bring into the light (not that he needs it). And I know he's not a god and isn't viewed as one. I was merely trying to give an example as to the ignorance that is faith. They (all who believe in a higher power) cannot claim to know anything of god because they are merely creations. To he who adressed the bible: If man is flawed, as god says, then, in tern aren't all of our creations flawed as well. Including that book that was written who knows how long ago and has been rewritten manny times more to fit the needs of a generation.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Attributing names to God does not change that which is God.

    The only way that I can more fully know my partner is by the experience of knowing him through our loving relationship.....an experience that I cannot prove to you.....likewise, with God whom I know through the experience of a loving relationship...an experience that I cannot prove to you.
    I care not about you providing evidence about your experience with god. I only care about evidence of the existence of god. Until there is evidence of existence, I find no reason to believe. With something as extraordinary as the existence of a deity, I simply couldn't in good conscious be amenable to belief based upon purely subjective experience. Even if I experienced what you claim to have experienced, if I could not demonstrate such experience objectively (don't bother referencing your love for your partner again - that can be objectively verified), I would not be able to rationally believe the experience is evidence of the existence of a deity.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    I care not about you providing evidence about your experience with god. I only care about evidence of the existence of god. Until there is evidence of existence, I find no reason to believe. With something as extraordinary as the existence of a deity, I simply couldn't in good conscious be amenable to belief based upon purely subjective experience. Even if I experienced what you claim to have experienced, if I could not demonstrate such experience objectively (don't bother referencing your love for your partner again - that can be objectively verified), I would not be able to rationally believe the experience is evidence of the existence of a deity.
    So you've been telling us over many years....what else is new in your living room....limited by your sense of self imposed limitation?

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    So you've been telling us over many years....what else is new in your living room....limited by your sense of self imposed limitation?
    It's not limitation, it's rationalization. It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that all manner of nonsense can fall in. You seem to tout the latter as a virtue.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    So you've been telling us over many years....what else is new in your living room....limited by your sense of self imposed limitation?
    Why do you insist that reason is limiting? That's frankly a stupid statement, as you have no evidence and use your 'faith' as a means to declare infallibility. Something doesn't suit your taste and you declare yourself right by fiat. It's your trump card.

    In several threads in this subforum you've been asked to provide substantiation, and you've been unable to do so. I challenge you on ESP, and yet you persist. I suppose that you cannot stand that there is absolutely no evidence for it. You like to use false equivalencies in your arguments. Called out on them, you press on, fallacies in hand. But if pushed further, you say, "I have faith that x is y". Not only is that not an argument, it's not an explanation.

    If I claimed that I am clairvoyant, any good doctor (in this case psychiatrist) would conclude that I have a personality disorder or grand delusion and would prescribe antipsychotics. You say you have telepathy. Hm. Might there be a commonality?

    Hm...

    ...(epiphany)...ah! I've got it! They're both central tenants of ESP, that one thing that quack new agers posited that every single study done on it has disproven.

    If you have placed practicality and reason into the 'limiting factors' bin, I have no desire to learn what you put under 'enlightening factors' bin. How is reason not enlightening? It would seem to me to be the very epitome of enlightening. It's the discernment of truth and fact by way of logic, reason, and most importantly, evidence. Why would the universe be any less fascinating if there were no god? It's a marvellous and exciting place, so exceedingly complex that only mere chance could have made it so. No intelligent creator would've done it the way it is, it's all so very crude that it's miraculous that it even works in the first place.

    At first glance things seem to be well-made and planned, but once you delve further in, everything becomes so tenuous and haphazard. Intelligent design would not have been so shoddy and ill-conceived. Chance is the only instrument so irreverent and apathetic. It's somewhat miraculous that we arrived at where we are. Why cannot one be happy just because one's alive? The odds are so enormously against us.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 21st, 2013 at 11:38 PM.

  26. #26

    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    If I claimed that I am clairvoyant, any good doctor (in this case psychiatrist) would conclude that I have a personality disorder or grand delusion and would prescribe antipsychotics. You say you have telepathy. Hm. Might there be a commonality?
    I can see very clearly you are ignore-ant of the evil; you support. You type all of what you do, but are completely unaware of the myth of mental illness. Of how your "good doctor (in this case psychiatrist)" bases his prognoses and diagnosis regarding 'mental illness' on pseudoscience.
    You have no idea---seemingly--that this is part of one of the most insidious corrupt and evil social controlling, consciousness-controlling, myths which has seriously abused many adults and children over generations, and continues to do so, AND the ones doing it, and supporting it--like the drug pushers doctors/shrinks are oin the payroll----MONEY dear boy. MONEY!
    Last edited by opinterph; July 22nd, 2013 at 10:21 AM. Reason: added attribution

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    It's not limitation, it's rationalization. It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that all manner of nonsense can fall in. You seem to tout the latter as a virtue.
    It's self limiting enriched, with self focus that assumes all human experiences should be provable to others, and if they are not then they never occurred....some logic....when personal ESP evidences otherwise.... and...I know that ESP candidates under test conditions fail to perform...proving that they are not seals.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    It's self limiting enriched, with self focus that assumes all human experiences should be provable to others, and if they are not then they never occurred....some logic....when personal ESP evidences otherwise.... and...I know that ESP candidates under test conditions fail to perform...proving that they are not seals.
    I am not saying that without evidence the experience never occurred, I am saying it is not reasonable for others to believe those accounts, especially when the claim fails under objective controlled conditions.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    I am not saying that without evidence the experience never occurred, I am saying it is not reasonable for others to believe those accounts, especially when the claim fails under objective controlled conditions.
    Most personal experienced phenomena is not tested, and never will be, for subjects such as myself are not interested in propagating our experiences, for no other reason than such synchronistic inspirations would appear to be designed to assist us make our way through life...this is one of the very few venues where I have actually discussed my own numinous experiences limiting myself to a couple of meaning filled phenomena.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Most personal experienced phenomena is not tested, and never will be, for subjects such as myself are not interested in propagating our experiences, for no other reason than such synchronistic inspirations would appear to be designed to assist us make our way through life...this is one of the very few venues where I have actually discussed my own numinous experiences limiting myself to a couple of meaning filled phenomena.
    Most recounts of personal experiences are not claims of events or abilities that, if true and accurate, would overthrow everything currently known about the physical reality and the nature of the universe. Let's not equate trivial occurrences in one's life with the extraordinary claims you have made.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I can see very clearly you are ignore-ant of the evil; you support. You type all of what you do, but are completely unaware of the myth of mental illness. Of how your "good doctor (in this case psychiatrist)" bases his prognoses and diagnosis regarding 'mental illness' on pseudoscience.
    You have no idea---seemingly--that this is part of one of the most insidious corrupt and evil social controlling, consciousness-controlling, myths which has seriously abused many adults and children over generations, and continues to do so, AND the ones doing it, and supporting it--like the drug pushers doctors/shrinks are oin the payroll----MONEY dear boy. MONEY!
    I take it you were half asleep?

    Anyways, psychiatry as a medicine and science is not quackery. There is a lot of shooting in the dark, but that's because it wasn't as fully worked out as it is now. Still a lot to learn, but we've gotten over the vast majority of barriers. In years past it was an abusive application of medicine, but that image must be slowly pried away. Mental illness used to be a 'gut feeling' diagnosis. That's changed. The DSM-V is not the guesswork of the 1930s. Lobotomies have been done away with. Institutionalization is rare.

    Modern psychiatry is a respected and sincere science. It has shed its former destructive practices.

    The fact remains that individuals who suffer from large delusions are often given antipsychotics, jsut not the kind of yore. They are greatly improved substances that are more effective than their ancestors. Better and more efficient drugs are always in development. Gone are the days where the doctor just doped the whole ward into catatonia. To still call it insidious reflects an irrational distrust.

    And the money tangent doesn't really work out. In modern countries (other than the US) the costs of drugs has dropped because medicine in every other country is not practiced as a business (profits likewise fall). In the US, unfortunately, it is treated like a business and that must change ASAP. Pharmaceutical companies in the US do line their pockets, but that's all part of the broken system. It's long overdue for single-payer universal health care.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 22nd, 2013 at 11:10 AM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    Actually, historical consensus that states the opposite. Roman records (which were excellently kept) identify a Jesus (variant of Yeshua) of Nazareth being born approximately at the biblically described range who was later crucified under order of Pontius Pilate (there are Roman records of that too). There is also a strong consensus that the same man was baptised by a relative named John (Iohanan). Town records, proven to be contemporary to Jesus' life, were found that correspond to a biblically approximate year (+/- 2 in this case). No other episodes have been verified and most are likely unverifiable.

    There is [obviously] no evidence to the effect that he was born of a virgin or was god's son.
    Please provide a source for all of this information. I have been following the cases for and against the historical Jesus for years, and I must admit, this is the first I've heard of this... unless of course you are referring to the so-called "historical references" made in Pliny's letters and Tacitus' Annals.
    Last edited by Jacquemar; July 22nd, 2013 at 07:28 PM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    Most recounts of personal experiences are not claims of events or abilities that, if true and accurate, would overthrow everything currently known about the physical reality and the nature of the universe. Let's not equate trivial occurrences in one's life with the extraordinary claims you have made.
    Not from my perspective indicating that numinous phenomena evidences a reality beyond our normal interpretation of life's stimuli sufficient to act as a guiding compass....that's my experience of the numinous.....its source? well that's another discussion, for another day...

  34. #34

    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    I take it you were half asleep?

    Anyways, psychiatry as a medicine and science is not quackery. There is a lot of shooting in the dark, but that's because it wasn't as fully worked out as it is now. Still a lot to learn, but we've gotten over the vast majority of barriers. In years past it was an abusive application of medicine, but that image must be slowly pried away. Mental illness used to be a 'gut feeling' diagnosis. That's changed. The DSM-V is not the guesswork of the 1930s. Lobotomies have been done away with. Institutionalization is rare.

    Modern psychiatry is a respected and sincere science. It has shed its former destructive practices.

    The fact remains that individuals who suffer from large delusions are often given antipsychotics, jsut not the kind of yore. They are greatly improved substances that are more effective than their ancestors. Better and more efficient drugs are always in development. Gone are the days where the doctor just doped the whole ward into catatonia. To still call it insidious reflects an irrational distrust.

    And the money tangent doesn't really work out. In modern countries (other than the US) the costs of drugs has dropped because medicine in every other country is not practiced as a business (profits likewise fall). In the US, unfortunately, it is treated like a business and that must change ASAP. Pharmaceutical companies in the US do line their pockets, but that's all part of the broken system. It's long overdue for single-payer universal health care.
    You appear FULLY asleep! From what I read you think lol OMG where would I begin with you.

    Anyways, psychiatry as a medicine and science is not quackery. There is a lot of shooting in the dark, but that's because it wasn't as fully worked out as it is now. Still a lot to learn,
    ...If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a....QUACK QUACK.

    We are talking about PEOPLE'S LIVES including CHILDREN'S LIVES being seriously fucked with by this toxic abusive and evil myth!

    Psychiatry is SO corrupt that it is incorruptable. Where is all the compensation for the lives they have ruined, and are continuing to destroy. IF they were held to account, along with their patron, the pharmaceutical industry, they would cease to exist.

    it is social control.

    I would recommend you read this:


    Patients Harmed by Diagnosis Find Their Voices:

    Victims of psychiatric labeling file ethics complaints.

    I have been working intensively for many months with people who have had their lives damaged -- some forever -- because they were given labels from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a product whose latest edition has brought $100 million in profit for its publisher, the American Psychiatric Association, but that is not scientifically grounded, helps little, and leads to a devastating array of kinds of harm.

    Yesterday and today, in what appears not to have been done before, a number of them are filing ethics complaints with the APA. Very early this morning, I filed my own complaint as an "interested party" who has for more than a quarter of a century seen from the inside the way the DSM people play fast and loose with the science yet have somehow managed to convince many professionals and much of the public that their manual is scientifically grounded, and during that time I have heard from many hundreds of people who have been seriously harmed — and not helped — in a stunning array of ways because of getting one or more DSM labels. I had personally in conversations and then in many of my writings made the powers-that-be aware of these problems, and I have been deeply troubled by both their failure to publicize the unscientific nature of their manual and their failure to take steps to gather systematically any evidence of harm and to redress past harm and prevent future harm.

    Part of the story is in this article, which went up yesterday on the Washington Post online under the headline "Psychiatry's Bible, the DSM, is doing more harm than good," and is to appear in print on Sunday. "(read more from site)


    ©2012 by Paula J. Caplan All rights reserved

    Source Link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...d-their-voices
    Last edited by opinterph; July 23rd, 2013 at 04:32 AM. Reason: added source link

  35. #35

    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Attributing names to God does not change that which is God.

    The only way that I can more fully know my partner is by the experience of knowing him through our loving relationship.....an experience that I cannot prove to you.....likewise, with God whom I know through the experience of a loving relationship...an experience that I cannot prove to you.
    We can perceive your loving relationship with your partner because we can see you together with him, we can visit you in your home, go out to dinner with you, witness behavior between the two of you that we judge to be evidence of a loving relationship.

    The relationship you describe with God is the same as the relationship between a child and an imaginary friend. We can perceive the child speaking to empty space as if a friend were there, the child can tell us things about the imaginary friend, indeed, tell us that they love each other and have a loving relationship. The imaginary friend, like God, only exists in the mind of the believer. There is no more evidence that God exists than that a child's imaginary friend exists.

  36. #36

    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That those who lived with Jesus for some three and half years recorded their experiences with him...the gospels and the epistles...indicates that we know sufficient to be able to believe that Jesus inspired a following that two thousand years later defies the beliefs of those who insist that Jesus never existed.

    Video recordings of Jesus would address many questions...leaving us with nothing more than the words of several of Jesus' closest friends to ponder upon....the rest is faith informing reason.
    The gospels and epistles were written 100-200 years after Christ and were not authored by any of the twelve apostles.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    The default attitude toward reports of evidence to which we are not privileged is skepticism. But though skepticism may be a very reasonable attitude, I'm not sure it's entirely reasonable; how can we make an entirely reasonable conclusion about evidence we can't observe? And so, I think it's fair to keep skepticism's companion alive, too: charity. If you report that pain seems quite awful to you, we have no privilege to verify that, yet many feel charitably that it is so. If you report that you have personal evidence of god, we may feel skeptical or charitable about that. But because the report is personal, it remains only something we may have an attitude about, inconclusive.
    “Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.” ~ Mark Twain

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    You appear FULLY asleep! From what I read you think lol OMG where would I begin with you.

    ...If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a....QUACK QUACK.

    We are talking about PEOPLE'S LIVES including CHILDREN'S LIVES being seriously fucked with by this toxic abusive and evil myth!

    Psychiatry is SO corrupt that it is incorruptable. Where is all the compensation for the lives they have ruined, and are continuing to destroy. IF they were held to account, along with their patron, the pharmaceutical industry, they would cease to exist.

    it is social control.
    I read the article, but it doesn't really corroborate your views.

    The problem is the lack of medicine used when applying the DSM. The DSM provides labels and diagnostic criteria; a dictionary. That is what the DSM does and all it should do. It is not a go-to manual for treatment and should not be used as one. The DSM-V manages to draw more arbitrary lines between normal and exceptional behavior, and often ends up labelling the most insignificant responses. It is still a good text for standardizing criteria and definitions, but must be read with a grain of salt. Many of its definitions have been improved over time, but its treatment suggests have not. Especially with regards to the latest additions to it, where pharmaceutical companies did zealously provide input. That should have been caught by the APA and removed.

    Doctors that follow it religiously are following bad practice, but it is still a useful tool when diagnosing behaviors/thought/etc. that are clearly not 'normal'. Any reasonable psychiatrist is not going to diagnose someone who's close friend just died with some 'grief disorder'. That kind of distinction is meaningless and should be evident to a professional. A lawyer would not recognize that because their job is to weasel out money from semantics.

    A doctor that follows the DSM unquestioningly is going to make a lot of mistakes because of subjective criteria. That's the loose and bad science. There are many sound and scientific foundations, despite its relative lack of explanation. In the latter case, there are many good texts that do explain the underpinnings. The threshold of symptoms is also flawed and yet another reason why the DSM is not to be taken as-is. The same with culture-bias. A good doctor would not bind his or herself to the book and would be skeptical in interpretation. Hopefully the next edition will remove the subjective criteria along with the medicalization of normal behaviors. There is little evidence that those behaviors need treatment, and the obvious construct of the pharmaceutical companies.

    And I don't think that the 'disease mongering' you subscribe to is that widespread among professionals. Pharmaceutical companies certainly push it, but I don't think that most doctors would buy it. Even when it's ingrained in the DSM, I hardly think that the average doctor will use it like a cookbook, à la add SSRIs to taste and then serve with a sprinkling of dopamine.

    Again, I stress that the DSM is not an inherently bad text, but a limited and grossly misused one.

    And why do you keep shoving out your view that psychiatry as a science is a myth? There are a lot of bad psychiatrists, but that doesn't devalue the science itself. I also don't see why you say that it would cease to exist. It has caused much dismay, but so has every other field of medicine, and they're all improving. Lives have been ruined by both good and bad medicine for centuries, it's nothing new. And guess what, the good medicine has gotten better and the bad medicine has too.

    As for labelling, that's a societal problem. The general public needs to get over themselves and their prejudices. The stigma and discrimination will vanish soon after.

    The more you scream about compensation, the less people listen. If your doctor fucked you up, collect malpractice and go to a different one. And you can always refuse treatment to get a second opinion. If your doctor wants to try something new, consult another and see if there'll be complications. Don't just let one doctor kick you down the stairs.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The gospels and epistles were written 100-200 years after Christ and were not authored by any of the twelve apostles.
    Well, I wouldn't go THAT far. There is very little evidence for the dating of the gospels. Their composition is probably contemporary to the persecutions of the emperor Nero (c. 64 CE) and for John, after the destruction of the Temple (70 CE), which would be appropriate times to preach. No one with sense actually thinks that the Gospels were written by the personages that they were named after. Attribution of such kind was common back then; the naming of the various Gospels more likely represents a tradition surrounding that particular apostle.

    As to the Epistles, they were probably composed in the mid-40's to mid-50's CE. The majority of them are written by one person, thought by Christians to be Paul the apostle; see above comment about attribution. Some of them are obviously spurious.

    The Acts of the Apostles is probably as genuine as those so called "Eyewitness accounts of the Trojan War" that historians have been so plagued with. It was probably composed in the 50's to 60's CE. (There are some that say it was composed after 94 CE.)

    I'd like to point out, though, that this is all guess work. Historians have very little evidence to date the NT because we DO NOT have ANY complete copies that date back to the 1st Century CE. The oldest copies of canonical Christian literature we have date back to the late 2nd century CE, and only a single fragment to the 1st Century.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacquemar View Post
    Please provide a source for all of this information. I have been following the cases for and against the historical Jesus for years, and I must admit, this is the first I've heard of this... unless of course you are referring to the so-called "historical references" made in Pliny's letters and Tacitus' Annals.
    Sorry I missed your post.

    Pliny the Younger's letters to Trajan don't once mention the name 'Jesus', if I recall, and I've read that they have little chance of being historical evidence. More solid evidence comes from the writings of Josephus (a Roman historian), who explicitly refers to the crucifixion and 'the one who was called Christ'. If Tacitus were not born 25 years after Jesus' death it would be without question.

    He gave very precise accounts, and he had access to official Roman records being a Senator. So I consider Tacitus to be the best Roman account. Since official Roman records themselves no longer exist (there are fragments), contemporary historians that used them as sources (I doubt Tacitus wouldn't have used the vast troves of information at his disposal) give us the best look. Josephus corroborates the crucifixion itself (he mentions it several times in several different books), but his mention of Pontius Pilate may have been edited by early Christians. It's consensus that that section was originally factual but was possibly redacted.

    Pilate's historicity is traced to the Pilate Stone, an official inscription of his name and title (Prefect of Judea). As prefect, Pilate had to personally sign-off on putting someone (rather a list of people) to death. Whether he was present is another matter. It's also unlikely that Pilate's records would've mentioned Jesus, as he was not a citizen, and that effectively discredits the Acts of Pilate as historical.

    So it takes some piecing together, but we can affirm that a Jesus of Nazareth, the one who was called Christ, was crucified (those from Tacitus) under order of Pilate (in regard to his position and historicity). Josephus corroborates the crucifixion and Jesus' existence.

    Local records from the time may or may not be historical, but they do agree with each other (roughly) and correspond to the writings of Josephus and Tacitus.

    Being that Jesus was almost certainly a real person, it's unlikely that his followers would've fabricated John, as his mention in historical writings (I believe of Josephus, when he's talking about 'the Jesus that was called Christ') most likely predates some of the Gospels by a few years. Either way, Josephus wrote that independently--that section is not in question. Antiquities of the Jews was published in 116 CE, but was started several years prior. We cannot date the Gospels precisely, but they were written sometime after Nero but before 200 CE (late estimate).

    Even as an atheist (I variously refer to myself as atheist, agnostic, pragmatist, etc. with the understanding that while I cannot prove that there's no god, I consider extremely unlikely given the evidence at hand) I concede that Jesus was a real person.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 23rd, 2013 at 04:59 PM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The gospels and epistles were written 100-200 years after Christ and were not authored by any of the twelve apostles.
    The gospels were written some thirty to fifty years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth by the authors....who had lived with Jesus for three and a half years.... there is no dispute on this matter....but I can agree that the actual words were placed on paper by the younger colleagues of the authors of the gospels....John authored his Apocalypse when in his nineties....again, probably put to paper by a younger colleague.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The imaginary friend, like God, only exists in the mind of the believer. There is no more evidence that God exists than that a child's imaginary friend exists.
    You've repeated these same words many times over the years....thanks for regurgitating.....

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    You claim Buddha existed? Where is your factual evidence?
    Was buddha story believable ? YES !!!
    Was water turns into wine, walking on water, virgin birth, flying on a horse believable ... etc ? NO !!!


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Was buddha story believable ? YES !!!
    Was water turns into wine, walking on water, virgin birth, flying on a horse believable ... etc ? NO !!!
    If I remember well you are South Asian Vietnamese, or Thai so the Buddha story would fit in naturally with your cultural history..

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    If I remember well you are South Asian Vietnamese, or Thai so the Buddha story would fit in naturally with your cultural history..
    Its not about cultural history.
    Its about the stories are believable or not.

    There was NO magic in the buddha story. If there was magic, it cannot be believed.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Its not about cultural history.
    Its about the stories are believable or not.

    There was NO magic in the buddha story. If there was magic, it cannot be believed.
    Your country of origin and its cultural history does have an impact on its inhabitants which is why you have been so affirmative on the Buddha story and so negative on the Jesus story....worth noting.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    The view that God is the author of Holy Scripture can be traced back to Clement of Alexandria, when in the 2nd century he speaks of God as the immediate and primary cause (aitos) of both the Old and New Testaments. Clement was more concerned with the relationship between the Jewish, and Christian scriptures than in speaking to the source of the inspiration for Holy Scripture. Ambrose of Milan preferred to translate aitos into author as a reflection of his own prejudices. Jerome offers a different view by referring to the "one author" of all the Pauline letters, but the context does not make it clear if that author is deemed to be Paul or God. Later Church Councils and Theologians followed the same convention in viewing God as the author or principle author of the Scriptures.The Biblical scribes are seen as little more than "oracles" of the divine, and their words are taken as inerrant and infallible – or, as we might commonly and tellingly say, their teachings and stories are "taken as Gospel".

    While this approach remains widely-accepted amongst the Evangelical end of the ecclesiastical spectrum it is not generally tolerated by the broader Church. The rise of modern Biblical scholarship in the nineteenth century following the impact of the earlier Enlightenment has initiated several significant challenges to the historical veracity and inerrant nature of the Biblical texts.

    Is it therefore still possible to attribute authorship to God? Well! To wax rabbinical, the answer is probably, yes and no! On the one hand, we probably can no longer sustain the view that the Biblical writers were merely oracles of God, channelling faithfully every word that God whispered in their ears. On the other hand, we can't dismiss the notion that God has influenced the writing. The question is, how? How did God inspire these writers?

    We can imagine that inspiration is not a static singular event, but a dynamic process that is still in some sense ongoing The various historical "respondents" were inspired by God to record and pass on their reflections upon particular historical "situations" that were subsequently shaped, reshaped and interpreted (and continue to be interpreted) within the "traditions" of the interpretive community.

    We may understand that these Biblical texts are the end result of a long process of historical production, and their interpretation stands within a long tradition. But the process is dynamic and dialectic – the Church may have preserved these texts and canonised them as divine issue, but they remain, not just a part of the "tradition", but also as an impulse to rethink and reshape the tradition. They refused to be totally tamed and domesticated, and this alone might for most of us confirm the ongoing divine inspiration that gives them life.

    The author of 2 Timothy (3:16-17) wrote, in what is the Bible's only direct reference to the inspiration of scripture, "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work".

    The sceptical Christian observer might reason that if we assume that The Holy Spirit is leading us through our life's journey, what then the purpose of Holy Scripture? That is another thought for another day....for it would involve an acceptance that God's Spirit is ever present in our lives engaging us to follow His guidance.....then we may ask what relevance, Holy Scripture?

    This is a repeat of an earlier post also posted elsewhere.
    Last edited by kallipolis; July 23rd, 2013 at 11:10 PM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Your country of origin and its cultural history does have an impact on its inhabitants which is why you have been so affirmative on the Buddha story and so negative on the Jesus story....worth noting.
    LOL, i know the bible more than buddha story.

    Your fellow Greek sister and biblical scholar on the BBC said the bible stories are mostly myths.
    Last edited by Telstra; July 24th, 2013 at 12:05 AM.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    LOL, i know the bible more than buddha story.

    Your fellow Greek sister and biblical scholar on the BBC said the bible stories are mostly myths.
    The word myth is derived from the Greek word, (μύθος) mythos which Greeks understand to be drawn from tribal stories, folklore if you wish passed on from generation, to generation over camp fires detailing important, and occasionally less important events in the history of a specific community....often these stories are based upon factual events that have been embellished over the centuries.

    Myth does not correlate with fiction even were we to suppose that the factual events from which the mythical tales are drawn have been massaged nevertheless they are calculated to impart wisdom that benefits the tribal community from which the historical events have been sourced.

    Your rapid choice to support the Buddha whilst denigrating the Jesus story of water, and wine might well suggest that you post here with an agenda.
    Last edited by kallipolis; July 24th, 2013 at 06:38 AM.

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    Re: There is no factual evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The word myth is derived from the Greek word, (μύθος) mythos which Greeks understand to be drawn from tribal stories, folklore if you wish passed on from generation, to generation over camp fires detailing important, and occasionally less important events in the history of a specific community....often these stories are based upon factual events that have been embellished over the centuries.

    Myth does not correlate with fiction even were we to suppose that the factual events from which the mythical tales are drawn have been massaged nevertheless they are calculated to impart wisdom that benefits the tribal community from which the historical events have been sourced.

    Your rapid choice to support the Buddha whilst denigrating the Jesus story of water, and wine might well suggest that you post here with an agenda.
    Since you know my mind more than i, tell me more LOL


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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