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  1. #251

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Logically, poverty and unemployment should be big issues, but inequality should not be an issue. As long as Democrats want more poverty and unemployment, we cannot reduce them. Wealth does not cause poverty, policies do.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Zimmerman said Martin was trying to get the weapon. That means it was visible.
    Often when you start fighting and rolling around on the ground, things that were covered, by say your shirt, become uncovered.
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    The forensic examination of this trial will not matter a whit unless the US addreses its culture of violence, the craven worship of the gun and laws such as SYG which allows the state to abandon its monopoly on law enforcement.
    Right there is the phrase which separates free countries from the rest: free countries recognize that there is no state monopoly on law enforcement, that the power to enforce laws derives from the right of citizens to defend themselves against crime.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #254
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Logically, poverty and unemployment should be big issues, but inequality should not be an issue. As long as Democrats want more poverty and unemployment, we cannot reduce them. Wealth does not cause poverty, policies do.
    As long as brainwashed neanderthals accept propaganda speech and paint an entire political party as some fairy tale evil witch, the political process will be incapacitated. Too bad we have to wait an entire generation to die out so that normal politics could resume.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  5. #255
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Right there is the phrase which separates free countries from the rest: free countries recognize that there is no state monopoly on law enforcement, that the power to enforce laws derives from the right of citizens to defend themselves against crime.
    Please don't insult everybody's intelligence (your own included) by going to the redneck use of the word "free". To quote The Newsroom, "Two hundred seven sovereign states in the world, like 180 of them have freedom." What you call free, people with common sense call "anarchy". It again and again and again proves to lead to senseless violence, backed by numbers that you repeatedly either utterly fail to address, or make up some ridiculous haughty excuse for not addressing (like the Mother Jones article where you never responded to me).

    Defend your delusions of responsible gun culture all you want, but please don't embarrass yourself by talking about "freedom". There's nothing "free" about a mind in the grip of paranoia.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  6. #256
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    This case has blown out of proportion by the media.
    How about other gun murders, where are their voice ?


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Good news, as far as I'm concerned. Indications seem to be a civil rights investigation in the making.




    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...n?detail=email

    Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 05:43 AM PDT
    FBI Freezes City of Sanford's Plan to Return Zimmerman's Gun

    by ericlewis0Follow
    From the L.A. Times:

    The Sanford Police Department froze its plan to return Zimmerman's gun Thursday after the FBI put a hold on evidence in the case, Sanford police spokesman Capt. James McAuliffe told the Los Angeles Times.

    The FBI's request signals that the Justice Department is proceeding with its civil rights investigation into Zimmerman's killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

    McAuliffe said the gun, a 9-millimeter semiautomatic, won't be returned until the department completes its investigation and had no further need for evidence in the case.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  8. #258
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Good news, as far as I'm concerned. Indications seem to be a civil rights investigation in the making.




    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...n?detail=email
    I saw this yesterday, the story included a reference that a local gun shop is providing him a replacement gun for free since he has received death threats.

    Most of the legal commentators I've heard so far say there is absolutely nothing to hang a Federal civil rights case on so they expect the Feds are just going through the motions.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  9. #259
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Please don't insult everybody's intelligence (your own included) by going to the redneck use of the word "free". To quote The Newsroom, "Two hundred seven sovereign states in the world, like 180 of them have freedom." What you call free, people with common sense call "anarchy". It again and again and again proves to lead to senseless violence, backed by numbers that you repeatedly either utterly fail to address, or make up some ridiculous haughty excuse for not addressing (like the Mother Jones article where you never responded to me).
    Funny, but I haven't noticed any anarchy resulting from citizen's arrest, which is a basic right that can be exercised in the United States. Nor have I seen it lead to senseless violence.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Good news, as far as I'm concerned. Indications seem to be a civil rights investigation in the making.




    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...n?detail=email
    Good. Zimmerman has demonstrated that he is not competent to be part of the militia. He should be required to complete thorough training before he is given a firearm again.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #261
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Funny, but I haven't noticed any anarchy resulting from citizen's arrest, which is a basic right that can be exercised in the United States. Nor have I seen it lead to senseless violence.
    I think it's because citizen's arrests happen so infrequently that it's inconsequential to statistics. I'm sure most people are worried about someone shooting them so they don't attempt many citizen's arrests.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I think it's because citizen's arrests happen so infrequently that it's inconsequential to statistics. I'm sure most people are worried about someone shooting them so they don't attempt many citizen's arrests.
    I think it's because most people have been brainwashed by the statist view and don't realize the authority is theirs.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #263

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    The right to make a citizen's arrest is extremely limited. A citizen may arrest only for a felony committed in his presence. Law enforcement officers can arrest upon probable cause for crimes, including misdemeanors,

  14. #264
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I saw this yesterday, the story included a reference that a local gun shop is providing him a replacement gun for free since he has received death threats.

    Most of the legal commentators I've heard so far say there is absolutely nothing to hang a Federal civil rights case on so they expect the Feds are just going through the motions.
    Unfortunately I think you're right on that 2nd part. But it must be done. Maybe something will come of it. Nobody has said that Trayvon, that I've seen, had the right to defend himself.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Nobody has said that Trayvon, that I've seen, had the right to defend himself.

    Defend himself from what? Being followed is not a physical threat. Feeling insulted or offended is not justifiable cause for physical contact.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Unfortunately I think you're right on that 2nd part. But it must be done. Maybe something will come of it. Nobody has said that Trayvon, that I've seen, had the right to defend himself.
    The comment has been made multiple times in this forum alone, including my own opinions that sad aspect of this tragedy is that both individuals likely felt they were acting in self defense.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Defend himself from what? Being followed is not a physical threat. Feeling insulted or offended is not justifiable cause for physical contact.
    Unless you felt you were about to be attacked and was trying to get the first strike in. We keep ignoring while Zimmerman likely in error profiled Martin as a criminal, Trayvon and his friend on the phone (according to her testimony) did the same thing, profiling Zimmerman as a "creepy white cracker" and likely gay rapist.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  18. #268
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Defend himself from what? Being followed is not a physical threat. Feeling insulted or offended is not justifiable cause for physical contact.
    Even if it wasn't validly considered a physical threat THEN...well, it is NOW.
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Which after all the supposition and hand wringing, we get back to the question at hand,

    Would a jury find Treyvon innocent if he had been armed and was the one who left the scene alive? Would have the police let him be? Considering all that was known, neighborhood watch is dead and a young black man shot him.

    We all know the answer. So arguing what size the rocks are or the color of the sky is rather irrelevant. Isn't it?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  20. #270
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The case was overcharged because of media pressure. The Chief of Police recommended not pursuing charges, his lead investigator at the scene stated the most it could be was man slaughter. But it was in the public eye so they acted differently than they normally would.

    Quite an odd thing, the misinformation. You see people in this thread who are completely misinformed about the actual details of the case. First off, they didn't use stand your ground as a defense. It is irrelevant. Second, GZ was not told to 'not leave his truck', he was already following TM and when told not to follow tried to depart the area. That is when the confrontation occurred. Third, this has nothing to do with Florida per se, trial lawyers and prosecutors across the country indicated they did not have the evidence for Murder two.

    The only other lack of information travesty I would point out is that the internet MEME of GZ going free while the "Mom" gets jail time gives ZERO background or perspective. I would actually get some facts before passing judgement.

    This is a travesty no doubt. I think the worst travesty is that if it was two black and one ended up dead we would pay ZERO attention to it. Just google 'Murder' and 'Chicago' and ask yourself how many of those cases received any attention. If you doubt me, that is. If you don't have time to review hundreds of murders try seventy by googling "Murder" "Kansas City"

    I'm not sure we fully agree on the trial, but thank god someone else acknowledged this aspect of the case: he *already* got out of the car by the time the dispatcher told him to stop following Martin. No evidence after that point that he kept following.

    Also, thank you for recognizing that, for all the outrage over "stand your ground", it was never invoked in this case! A formal "Stand Your Ground" argument would have involved a separate hearing wherein Zimmerman's lawyers would have asked for *immunity* from all charges under the statute. What people actually object to, whether they know it or not, is Florida's concealed carry law, which allowed GZ to be armed with a handgun. That enabled the use of a handgun to be argued for/justified under the statutes regarding self-defense (which are really no different in Florida than in most states--the general principles about use of force date back to British common law). The misinformation and willful ignorance surrounding this trial are breathtaking.

  21. #271
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Haven't been around nearly as much anymore, but wanted to comment on this. If anyone does not understand why George Zimmerman received a Not Guilty verdict they:

    1) Didn't really watch the trial and relied completely on instinct and emotions ... and/or
    2) Don't understand the responsibility of a juror and how a juror is supposed to judge the merits of a case

    Just too much unknown that it was not enough to convict him. I do think Zimmerman unquestionably racially-profiled Trayvon Martin, but racially profiling someone isn't necessarily illegal on it's own merit.

    I think throwing manslaughter in at the very end was a mistake. But I do think even the manslaughter charge was too difficult to prove because of the self-defense charge. The state couldn't disprove that it was self-defense on Zimmerman's part. Coupled by witnesses that say they saw Trayvon on top in the struggle, the prosecution simply couldn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury had no other alternative.

    Just a very unfortunate series of incidents that never would have transpired had George Zimmerman not had a gun. That is the real issue at hand here, in my opinion. A neighborhood watchman needing a gun, evidently.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Haven't been around nearly as much anymore, but wanted to comment on this. If anyone does not understand why George Zimmerman received a Not Guilty verdict they:

    1) Didn't really watch the trial and relied completely on instinct and emotions ... and/or
    2) Don't understand the responsibility of a juror and how a juror is supposed to judge the merits of a case

    Just too much unknown that it was not enough to convict him. I do think Zimmerman unquestionably racially-profiled Trayvon Martin, but racially profiling someone isn't necessarily illegal on it's own merit.

    I think throwing manslaughter in at the very end was a mistake. But I do think even the manslaughter charge was too difficult to prove because of the self-defense charge. The state couldn't disprove that it was self-defense on Zimmerman's part. Coupled by witnesses that say they saw Trayvon on top in the struggle, the prosecution simply couldn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury had no other alternative.

    Just a very unfortunate series of incidents that never would have transpired had George Zimmerman not had a gun. That is the real issue at hand here, in my opinion. A neighborhood watchman needing a gun, evidently.
    I agree for the most part, except the racial profiling comment. I'm not entirely sure Zimmerman sought out Martin because he's black. But one thing I do know is that people who are signing up to watch their neighborhoods are generally shit starters. And, a night where there's no action, no one to question, no phone call to the non-emergency police line is indeed a failure of a night. Zimmerman was probably overzealous in getting a "bad guy" off the streets and that's what started his ass whooping and killing an unarmed teenager.

    Now, the neighborhood vigilante is now in fear for his life from Florida vigilantes.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  23. #273
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Haven't been around nearly as much anymore, but wanted to comment on this. If anyone does not understand why George Zimmerman received a Not Guilty verdict they:

    1) Didn't really watch the trial and relied completely on instinct and emotions ... and/or
    2) Don't understand the responsibility of a juror and how a juror is supposed to judge the merits of a case

    Just too much unknown that it was not enough to convict him. I do think Zimmerman unquestionably racially-profiled Trayvon Martin, but racially profiling someone isn't necessarily illegal on it's own merit.

    I think throwing manslaughter in at the very end was a mistake. But I do think even the manslaughter charge was too difficult to prove because of the self-defense charge. The state couldn't disprove that it was self-defense on Zimmerman's part. Coupled by witnesses that say they saw Trayvon on top in the struggle, the prosecution simply couldn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury had no other alternative.

    Just a very unfortunate series of incidents that never would have transpired had George Zimmerman not had a gun. That is the real issue at hand here, in my opinion. A neighborhood watchman needing a gun, evidently.
    Some of the legal and other commentators have pointed out that the real issue of discussion in this is concealed carry and self defense laws in general and profiling but it has become distorted and lost by the almost pathological need for some to prove the image they have built up of Zimmerman as a racist cold blooded killer. In reality for those who oppose these laws, the image the evidence tends to point to of an idiot who got in over his head with fatal consequences for a young man because he was carrying a gun is even more relevant to their argument.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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