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  1. #151

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Well I do not have to be located in KC to understand that fact of crime. I watch Phil Defranco almost everyday as well and that guy put it fairly accurately... Most protests have been peaceful but the idiots in LA?? Throwing a trash can at a jack in the box does what? How about kicking a person at a bus stop? All of those things typify the reactionist attitude that all black men are violent and scary. Along with a murder rate dominated by black on black crime.

    So what Mr. Gentry said was quite apropos. How can the black community get so upset because a non black killed one when blacks are killing each other by the thousands and you hear barely a peep out of the same leaders in their community.
    First off let me just say I didn't watch Mr Gentry and don't know who that is, but so far these sound like Fox News talking points:

    92% of blacks were murdered by other blacks last year because most people are murdered by people that they know. If you looked at how many whites were murdered by other whites it would be about the same.

    I'm sorry the crime rate in Chicago is so high. What else do you expect America to say? I don't live in Chicago and I'm not from there. Why do expect answers from me? How are we supposed to have a national conversation on a local problem?

    Blacks in LA always riot whenever there is perceived discrimation in Florida. Remember Rodney King?

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    .. How can the black community get so upset because a non black killed one when blacks are killing each other by the thousands and you hear barely a peep out of the same leaders in their community.
    The word hypocrisy comes to mind.

  3. #153
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Excellent job of ignoring the substance of my post so you can rant.

    If this law had been written properly, no criminal would be able to take advantage of it at all -- and Zimmerman would either have backed off or be headed for prison. Unfortunately, we had Marion Hammer driving the effort.
    I did not ignore anything about your post, and nor did i rant.

    I firstly responded to your point about an individuals right to determine whether the force they use is reasonable, on account that you say to do otherwise, is to deny their dignity. I then mocked that on the basis that there are more important things in life than a persons dignity (like a person's LIFE), and that the comment reminded me of how a culture in Pakistan and around that region put their family honour BEFORE love of their family, also with tragic consequences.

    Now T-Rexx has argued very well about why this law is wrong. I'll look at it like this.

    If the law was created to permit innocent people to use whatever force is necessary, which i am taking is your case, then it is a pointless law. Where self defence is concerned, whatever country you live, you have the right to do whatever it takes to defend yourself, and as T-Rexx said, that was no different prior to SYG being dreamt up. This means that the law MUST have been created to serve another function.
    I believe that other function was to try and give immunity to innocent people who take life in self defence, not to allow people to do it, but to take care of them after the fact, specifically due to percieved injustice, whenever an innocent person had been convicted of manslaughter or murder despite claiming self defence.
    Now, the problem here is this, that if innocent people, who are genuinely innocent, cannot convince a jury that they acted reasonably, then there is a route of appeal is there not? Instead, someone dreamt up this little gem, which allows people to justify excessive and even unnecessary force without having to worry about the fallout. But we are talking about people's lives, there SHOULD be questions, there SHOULD be judgement on a persons actions, and no legislation should exist that obstructs those questions and judgements. SYG clearly DOES do that, the police took no action to begin with. if this law allows the police to make the decision, how the hell on earth are you supposed to secure justice for the innocent people who are killed by abusers of this law???

    Its no good saying that the law is badly written. Its no good saying that it doesn't allow the aggressors to claim it as a defence. The burden is on the prosecution to prove that an aggressor WAS in fact the aggressor. With lack of proof, the guilty will walk.
    Any way the law is written, there will always exist that loophole that allows somebody to passively goad somebody into attacking them, and then shooting to kill. Where are you possibly going to get the evidence that it was the guy with the gun who was the aggressor, when he may be the only witness (so hardly going to incriminate himself), and if there are witnesses, they'll testify that perhaps they didn't hear the verbal exchange (where the killer provokes his victim), but did see the victim attack. So now in court, the victim looks like the aggressor according to the available evidence.

    The law is pathetic. I'm pleased that Ohio at least requires someone to prove they had no choice, as this at least allows OTHER people to decide if in fact that WAS reasonable action to take. It is not about denying an individual dignity Kuli, but about ensuring justice is done. If that means an innocent person has to walk around with a question mark over their head until they are declared innocent, it is worth it not to allow people to be killed in unreasonable and unnecessary situations and their killer go free.

    So Kuli, in what way exactly is this law a good thing, because as far as i can tell, it was NEVER needed in the first place.

  4. #154
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The intent of stand your ground laws is not to "allow a victim to fight back." It is to protect gun owners from prosecution under any circumstances whatsoever, regardless of how reckless, provocative, or lethal has been the gun owner's behavior. The law was written by the NRA to protect gun owners, not victims of crime.
    Thanks for making it clear you're talking out of your own paranoia and not from any facts or reality. The legislative sponsors of this law would laugh in your face at your fantasy -- more than one is already on record that the law did not intend to cover Zimmerman.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #155
    mitchymo
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The word hypocrisy comes to mind.
    Thats tosh. Black on black killings have zero possible racist connections is probably why no big deal is made about it. The Zimmerman case was interesting in that respect. I Zimmerman was black, he may, and i say may, have got away without going to trial first. What got people so angry, was not simply the injustice, but the lack of any justifiable reason as to why Trayvon Martin was deemed to be a suspect criminal. Since it is not a suspect thing for ANYBODY to be walking down the street with iced tea and skittles, chatting on the phone as you go, what possible fact could have made that lightbulb in Zimmermans head switch on? The fact that Trayvon may have been racially profiled, adds a dimension that doesn't exist in a black on black killing in the exact same circumstances. It is an injustice either way.

  6. #156

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The word hypocrisy comes to mind.
    The word racist comes to mind whenever I hear about the reporters who dig up these statistics and pretend they actually mean anything.
    Last edited by Vitamin; July 18th, 2013 at 09:05 AM.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I did not ignore anything about your post, and nor did i rant.

    I firstly responded to your point about an individuals right to determine whether the force they use is reasonable, on account that you say to do otherwise, is to deny their dignity. I then mocked that on the basis that there are more important things in life than a persons dignity (like a person's LIFE), and that the comment reminded me of how a culture in Pakistan and around that region put their family honour BEFORE love of their family, also with tragic consequences.
    You're ranting again. This has absolutely nothing to do with "honor". And if someone is threatening my life, he's already surrendered any right to his, voluntarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Now T-Rexx has argued very well about why this law is wrong. I'll look at it like this.

    If the law was created to permit innocent people to use whatever force is necessary, which i am taking is your case, then it is a pointless law. Where self defence is concerned, whatever country you live, you have the right to do whatever it takes to defend yourself, and as T-Rexx said, that was no different prior to SYG being dreamt up. This means that the law MUST have been created to serve another function.
    Before SYG, the law -- as it is now in Oregon, BTW -- was written for lawyers. Only someone trained in the law about self-defense could possibly respond in any situation where it was necessary in a way likely to avoid prosecution. But even a lawyer who'd studied all the case law couldn't be certain he knew exactly what force was "necessary" unless he had a time machine so he could freeze the moment and examine it from every angle. In other words, the law didn't allow self-defense, it allowed gambling with one's own life whether a victim succeeded in fending off an attacker or not.

    The "in whatever country" line is hilarious: anyone alert at all knows that people who have defended themselves against assault have ended up in prison in the UK and in quite a number of US states.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I believe that other function was to try and give immunity to innocent people who take life in self defence, not to allow people to do it, but to take care of them after the fact, specifically due to percieved injustice, whenever an innocent person had been convicted of manslaughter or murder despite claiming self defence.
    No, it defined the right to self-defense. If all you really have is the right to either submit or gamble with your life, you have no right of self-defense. It restores the ancient common-law right to judge how to respond when attacked.

    You actually recognize that there really was no right to self-defense in your sentence above, when you acknowledge that people have been convicted of manslaughter or murder for defending themselves. That's the idiocy the SYG law is meant to correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Now, the problem here is this, that if innocent people, who are genuinely innocent, cannot convince a jury that they acted reasonably, then there is a route of appeal is there not? Instead, someone dreamt up this little gem, which allows people to justify excessive and even unnecessary force without having to worry about the fallout. But we are talking about people's lives, there SHOULD be questions, there SHOULD be judgement on a persons actions, and no legislation should exist that obstructs those questions and judgements. SYG clearly DOES do that, the police took no action to begin with. if this law allows the police to make the decision, how the hell on earth are you supposed to secure justice for the innocent people who are killed by abusers of this law???
    So your position is that those who defend their own lives should have to pile up legal expenses and suffer through jail time, having their lives and the lives of their loved ones disrupted and possibly ruined, because they defended themselves? Where is the "right to self defense" in that? If you're being treated as a criminal, being punished for an action, then you didn't have any right to that action.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Its no good saying that the law is badly written. Its no good saying that it doesn't allow the aggressors to claim it as a defence. The burden is on the prosecution to prove that an aggressor WAS in fact the aggressor. With lack of proof, the guilty will walk.
    Any way the law is written, there will always exist that loophole that allows somebody to passively goad somebody into attacking them, and then shooting to kill. Where are you possibly going to get the evidence that it was the guy with the gun who was the aggressor, when he may be the only witness (so hardly going to incriminate himself), and if there are witnesses, they'll testify that perhaps they didn't hear the verbal exchange (where the killer provokes his victim), but did see the victim attack. So now in court, the victim looks like the aggressor according to the available evidence.
    "Better a thousand guilty walk free than one innocent man be punished." -- Thomas Jefferson, citing an ancient principle of law.

    That you can blithely propose that we continue to send innocent people to jail or let them suffer at the hands of criminals because they aren't lawyers trained ahead of time in just exactly how much force is needed when they're attacked shows you have no understanding of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The law is pathetic. I'm pleased that Ohio at least requires someone to prove they had no choice, as this at least allows OTHER people to decide if in fact that WAS reasonable action to take. It is not about denying an individual dignity Kuli, but about ensuring justice is done. If that means an innocent person has to walk around with a question mark over their head until they are declared innocent, it is worth it not to allow people to be killed in unreasonable and unnecessary situations and their killer go free.

    So Kuli, in what way exactly is this law a good thing, because as far as i can tell, it was NEVER needed in the first place.
    If being arrested for protecting yourself, sitting in jail and having your life disrupted and possibly ruined, depriving your loved ones of your presence, is :dignity", then there should never have been a revolution in South Africa; after all, Mandela had dignity, by your measure.

    What the Ohio law does is declare that the innocent have no power, and the criminal has it all. It tells the criminal that he can do as he pleases, because his victims -- unless they're lawyers, or the rich and powerful -- will be afraid to fight back. It's the sort of law a Romney would like, that leaves everyone but those who can afford high-profile lawyers stuck in a morass of uncertainty.

    What the SYG laws do -- when written clearly -- is tell the innocent, however wealthy they may or may not be, that they actually can strike back without fear of punishment for exercising the most basic human right. What they do not do is authorize the initiation of force. Florida's law is poorly written because of Marion Hammer, NRA lobbyess from Hell, who fought every attempt to make it clearer. Amendments proposed by Republicans in Florida would have clarified the meaning so that even obtuse lawyers and judges could get the idea -- let alone the amendments proposed by various Democrats.

    I sincerely hope that someone manages to "stand his ground" against Hammer... the sooner the better. Maybe a bullet through a lung will clarify things for her the way she refused to have them clarified for her fellow citizens.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    The word racist comes to mind .
    It may come to mind, but 'racist' has become, through overuse, a totally meaningless term these days.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Thanks for making it clear you're talking out of your own paranoia and not from any facts or reality. The legislative sponsors of this law would laugh in your face at your fantasy -- more than one is already on record that the law did not intend to cover Zimmerman.
    Your defense of the Florida legislators - that they were too stupid to have understood what they were doing - is laughable. The problems with the law were debated at the time it was passed. They have been debated continuously since. This is not some unpredictable and unforeseeable outcome. This is exactly what opponents said would happen.

    But if the legislators now believe they made a mistake, why do they not now favor repeal of this law? Why did they beat back an attempt by Democrats to modify it? Why does governor Rick Scott continue to insist it is a good law?

    Stand your ground in Florida did exactly what it was intended to do - protect a white gun owner from liability for the use of his gun in the murder of another human being. The law is functioning exactly as intended. Why would Florida legislators, therefore, want to change it?

  10. #160

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    It may come to mind, but 'racist' has become, through overuse, a totally meaningless term these days.
    I'll take your deflection as an admittance of guilt.
    Last edited by Vitamin; July 18th, 2013 at 11:03 AM.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    I'll take your deflection as an admittance of guilt.
    Take it anyway you like, including up yours, but the fact remains that the term 'racist' is tossed about with so little regard for the truth, that it has, in fact, become meaningless.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Thats tosh. Black on black killings have zero possible racist connections is probably why no big deal is made about it. The Zimmerman case was interesting in that respect. I Zimmerman was black, he may, and i say may, have got away without going to trial first. What got people so angry, was not simply the injustice, but the lack of any justifiable reason as to why Trayvon Martin was deemed to be a suspect criminal. Since it is not a suspect thing for ANYBODY to be walking down the street with iced tea and skittles, chatting on the phone as you go, what possible fact could have made that lightbulb in Zimmermans head switch on? The fact that Trayvon may have been racially profiled, adds a dimension that doesn't exist in a black on black killing in the exact same circumstances. It is an injustice either way.
    So you're saying that as long as blacks are being killed by the right people, it doesn't matter?

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Take it anyway you like, including up yours, but the fact remains that the term 'racist' is tossed about with so little regard for the truth, that it has, in fact, become meaningless.
    Which I'm sure pleases your warped conscience. With the expression of racism now meaningless and dead, you've been liberated to hate and prejudge all others without fear of being seen as a bigot. Thank God racism means nothing!
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  14. #164
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're ranting again. This has absolutely nothing to do with "honor". And if someone is threatening my life, he's already surrendered any right to his, voluntarily.
    In as many words as letters in the alphabet, you've both ranted and failed to acknowledge the context of my post. Hypocrite me thinks. I said nothing about this being about honour, just that honour over love in some Pakistani cultures was invoked in my mind at your suggestion that dignity is more important than life. I.E. a lesser importance taking precedence over a greater one. This can be reasonably assumed, since you think it more of an injustice that without this law, innocent people MAY be wrongly convicted, yet with this law, innocent people are getting killed because of abuse of the law, not merely badly written, but promoting the wrong message.
    And then you went on to say "And if someone is threatening my life, he's already surrendered any right to his, voluntarily." as if that is the point of this discussion, its not. Its not about the rights of the innocent (you in this case), its about the abuse of the criminally responsible (the you who may be the guilty party). Zimmerman was within his right to take Martin's life, by claiming essentially what you just have, that he was being attacked so Trayvon gave up his own right to life. But you know that the law failed, and clarifying it in any way other than 'reasonable force' won't stop people from abusing their leeway to commit murder (deadly force). If people know that they will be judged, they'd think twice about trying to abuse the law. In genuine cases of innocent people, the situation would be of a magnitude where decent, rational people would accept the justification, because innocent people, good people, are not the ones committing the abuse.


    Before SYG, the law -- as it is now in Oregon, BTW -- was written for lawyers. Only someone trained in the law about self-defense could possibly respond in any situation where it was necessary in a way likely to avoid prosecution. But even a lawyer who'd studied all the case law couldn't be certain he knew exactly what force was "necessary" unless he had a time machine so he could freeze the moment and examine it from every angle. In other words, the law didn't allow self-defense, it allowed gambling with one's own life whether a victim succeeded in fending off an attacker or not.
    The bold part:- Are you seriously saying that your constitutional right was swept under the carpet prior to SYG???? Seriously? Haven't you been arguing for a long time now, that the 2nd refers to individuals?

    The "in whatever country" line is hilarious: anyone alert at all knows that people who have defended themselves against assault have ended up in prison in the UK and in quite a number of US states.
    Oh i would love to see some UK cases, recent of course, lets say the past 3 decades, where a person using justifiable force ended up in prison for assault. Believe me, if they ended up in prison for assault in this country, we are talking GBH kind of assault, and that would almost inevitably be an unreasonable force unless the jury decided it was necessary force, in which case, they wouldn't have gone to prison. The only kind of person who may go to prison for a less serious assault, would be a repeat offender. So do please link me to a case or two, cos i'm guessing they're far from clear-cut cases.


    No, it defined the right to self-defense. If all you really have is the right to either submit or gamble with your life, you have no right of self-defense. It restores the ancient common-law right to judge how to respond when attacked.
    It does no such thing. You have always had the right to judge for yourself what action to take, when and if its necessary. SYG just allows people not to worry about making that judgement and instead doing what they like. BAD POLICY.

    You actually recognize that there really was no right to self-defense in your sentence above, when you acknowledge that people have been convicted of manslaughter or murder for defending themselves. That's the idiocy the SYG law is meant to correct.
    I'm sorry Kuli, but no. I have not realised that at all. I acknowledged that people being wrongly convicted as being the likely source of the creation of SYG, that is all. My issue here, is that if an innocent is wrongly convicted, its not a new law that was needed to circumvent that injustice, but a sorting out of the backroom, where incompetent defence teams and dumb/bias juries were improved upon, since that is where the problem lies when innocent people are being imprisoned for reasonable justifiable homicide.
    If the US legal system were a bucket, and innocent self-defendents being imprisoned, a hole in that bucket, then SYG has come along to mend that hole - by cutting another hole, a bigger hole from elsewhere in the bucket. That is why the law is wrong, it hasn't ceased injustice, its shifted it, with life-ending consequences.

    So your position is that those who defend their own lives should have to pile up legal expenses and suffer through jail time,
    Do you not have legal aid or bail in the US??
    having their lives and the lives of their loved ones disrupted and possibly ruined,
    Emotive - but hardly comparable to the fact that one party HAS NO LIFE anymore in such a circumstance.

    "Better a thousand guilty walk free than one innocent man be punished." -- Thomas Jefferson, citing an ancient principle of law.
    Ahhh, we are back to this age old gem are we. The quote is a philosophical one, not a truism. It is not literally better that a thousand guilty walk free than one innocent man be punished. It merely serves to instill good practice in the judiciary, to secure a fair trial.
    Honestly, this principle, when associated to SYG, is like saying "Better a thousand guilty walk free and a thousand innocents killed in the process, rather than one innocent man be wrongly convicted by an incompetent defence team and a poor jury, which may happen if we start asking questions about what anybody does rather than letting them decide for themselves"

    That you can blithely propose that we continue to send innocent people to jail or let them suffer at the hands of criminals because they aren't lawyers trained ahead of time in just exactly how much force is needed when they're attacked shows you have no understanding of justice.
    Don't give me that crap. You yourself believe Zimmerman has blood on his hands, you believe that because you are capable of being rational. So are the majority of intelligent human beings. If someone uses whatever force they like, it doesn't matter if they didn't take a moment to think about whether it was the right amount of force or not, a rational jury will reach a reasonable decision. All the defence needs to do is show that the consequences were not intentional and that the force was reasonable. We are not talking about people who shoot and kill when somebody is trying to hack at them with a machete here, we are talking about people who claim that a punch on the nose (that they most likely deserved, and actually, even if they didn't, we are talking about a punch) was reasonable grounds for shooting somebody. Its not.

    What the Ohio law does is declare that the innocent have no power, and the criminal has it all. It tells the criminal that he can do as he pleases,
    It does the exact opposite. It tells EVERYBODY, and ESPECIALLY the bad eggs in society, that they will have to prove that what was happening was of a magnitude that meant no other option was left available.

    I can't help thinking for the life of me, why the hell did Zimmerman choose to shoot his weapon. Could he not have threatened with it and it not worked as a deterrent? I assumed that was what guns did. Unless Trayvon Martin was some kind of maniac that didn't care a gun was pointed at him, i can't see him carrying on his attack, assuming that he WAS attacking, since we only have Zimmermans word, and superficial evidence that quite easily suggests Zimmerman got punched once (deservedly) and that he hit his head on concrete at some point, possibly due to falling in a scuffle. If Zimmerman lived in a state without SYG, maybe he would have had to accept that whatever he did would be scrutinised, and he'd think twice about doing anything. An innocent person is never in this position, since as an innocent, the only action taken is necessary action. Good people don't abuse the law.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    So you're saying that as long as blacks are being killed by the right people, it doesn't matter?
    Of course not. I merely offered my reasoning as to why this particular case has made the headlines, when so many other SYG related, brushed-under-carpet cases haven't. This Zimmerman trial is a tip of the iceberg in unjustifiable 'justified' homicides. The law allows the guilty to walk too easily.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    . I can't help thinking for the life of me, why the hell did Zimmerman choose to shoot his weapon. Could he not have threatened with it and it not worked as a deterrent? .
    Let's see. Could it be because he was on his back with a broken nose and other injuries? One of the witnesses described the scene for us.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Take it anyway you like, including up yours, but the fact remains that the term 'racist' is tossed about with so little regard for the truth, that it has, in fact, become meaningless.
    Oh Henry, always the charmer. It's no wonder you're so popular on this board. Who couldn't love a man who nods to baseless statements about people of a different color and then insults the people who call him out on it? Never quit being you Henry.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    "You may only be one person to the world, but you may also be the world to one person"
    - anonymous quote.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Thanks for making it clear you're talking out of your own paranoia and not from any facts or reality. The legislative sponsors of this law would laugh in your face at your fantasy -- more than one is already on record that the law did not intend to cover Zimmerman.
    But you really have no basis to say that, do you? Just because the legislators may say something, doesn't mean it's true, and even if it is, that just makes them incompetent if they couldn't foresee the obvious implications of the law.
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    It may come to mind, but 'racist' has become, through overuse, a totally meaningless term these days.
    I'm sure it's always been in whatever Republican suburbia you live in, but in the real world, the term is anything but meaningless. If it's overused, that's because your ilk has reverted back to their roots of unrestrained bigotry in recent years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Your defense of the Florida legislators - that they were too stupid to have understood what they were doing - is laughable. The problems with the law were debated at the time it was passed. They have been debated continuously since. This is not some unpredictable and unforeseeable outcome. This is exactly what opponents said would happen.

    But if the legislators now believe they made a mistake, why do they not now favor repeal of this law? Why did they beat back an attempt by Democrats to modify it? Why does governor Rick Scott continue to insist it is a good law?

    Stand your ground in Florida did exactly what it was intended to do - protect a white gun owner from liability for the use of his gun in the murder of another human being. The law is functioning exactly as intended. Why would Florida legislators, therefore, want to change it?
    Absolutely true, unfortunately.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    So you're saying that as long as blacks are being killed by the right people, it doesn't matter?
    So you're saying that when the "vermin" dies, it should be irrelevant, regardless of who does the killing?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    So you're saying that when the "vermin" dies, it should be irrelevant, regardless of who does the killing?
    Vermin is, after all, vermin.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Let's see. Could it be because he was on his back with a broken nose and other injuries? One of the witnesses described the scene for us.
    Yes, he was totally the victim in that situation. I mean, also he was white, so what else could he be?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  24. #174

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    ^^^

    Zimmerman is hispanic -- not white.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Vermin is, after all, vermin.
    This is grounds for a permanent ban in my book. Just saying.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^^

    Zimmerman is hispanic -- not white.
    I stand corrected - he was HALF-white. That totally makes all the difference in this situation.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  27. #177
    mitchymo
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Let's see. Could it be because he was on his back with a broken nose and other injuries? One of the witnesses described the scene for us.
    Hmmm, the witness that changed his story?

    Regardless, when you get into an altercation that starts off verbal, then esculates to a physical, from an otherwise trivial matter, the rational response is not "he is trying to kill me", its "we are fighting". You don't get into a scrap that you are mutually responsible for and assume that your opponent has more deadly designs than you do yourself. At least in Trayvon Martin's case, being that he was unarmed, it was HE who had a reason to believe that the threat existed from Zimmerman, not the other way around.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I stand corrected - he was HALF-white. That totally makes all the difference in this situation.
    Actually, Zimmerman is part Hispanic, part white, and part black, according to Reuters

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    This is grounds for a permanent ban in my book. Just saying.
    Oh dear, to be banned by a bedwetting liberal. However shall I contain my grief. LOL

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Juror B37:

    “She told the CNN anchor that Zimmerman was "a man whose heart was in the right place," but he went too far and did not use good judgment.”
    Looking at the reenactment Videos & hearing 911 Calls of Zimmerman lying & cussing his Stupid Face off really proved to Juror b37 that Zimmerman has a heart of Gold. I’m so glad she was a champion for his feelings during the deliberations.

    "When George confronted him . . . he (Trayvon) could have walked away and gone home,".
    B37 didn’t tell the Courts she’s a part-time Medium. George could have driven his Ass to Wal-Mart or Target or wherever the Hell he lied about going to.. When they confronted each other maybe Trayvon couldn’t walk away cuz Georgy Porgy pulled out the Equalizer.

    "He didn't have to do whatever he did and come back and be in a fight."
    There goes B37 again using her 6th sense powers. She’s def George’s Girl.

    "I don't want people to think that we didn't think about Trayvon Martin,"
    Of course we know you thought about Trayvon..You keep saying he started the Fight as if you witnessed it.…

    "George got in a little too deep," she said. "But Trayvon got mad and attacked him."
    Were you there B37? How do you know George is telling the TRUTH?

    Under pretrial questioning, she described the protests that took place in Sanford, Fla., after the shooting as "rioting."
    That alone should have disqualified her but she was intentionally selected.

  30. #180

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Hmmm, the witness that changed his story?

    Regardless, when you get into an altercation that starts off verbal, then esculates to a physical, from an otherwise trivial matter, the rational response is not "he is trying to kill me", its "we are fighting". You don't get into a scrap that you are mutually responsible for and assume that your opponent has more deadly designs than you do yourself. At least in Trayvon Martin's case, being that he was unarmed, it was HE who had a reason to believe that the threat existed from Zimmerman, not the other way around.
    It clearly depends on the degree of violence he was receiving. Remember, rightly. or wrongly, he thought Martin was suspicious for criminal intent. The violence from Martin was consistent with criminal intent and seemed to him to confirm his suspicions. From his point of view, the rational response was " he is trying to kill me" Martin thought he was just giving a white "cracker", a possible gay rapist, a "beat down". No one knows how it would have ended.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 18th, 2013 at 03:27 PM.

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    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Oh dear, to be banned by a bedwetting liberal. However shall I contain my grief. LOL
    They sell adult diapers nowadays.

    And I can't ban you. Dunno where "bedwetting" comes from, but I am sure you feel very smug about it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  32. #182
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It clearly depends on the degree of violence he was receiving. Remember, rightly. or wrongly, he thought Martin was suspicious for criminal intent. The violence from Martin was consistent with criminal intent and seemed to him to confirm his suspicions. From his point of view, the rational response was " he is trying to kill me" Martin thought he was just giving a white "cracker", a possible gay rapist, a "beat down". No one knows how it would have ended.
    Wow, "a white cracker"? Could you describe him in even more racist terms? Was he making orangutan sounds as well? Must have, right?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post

    And I can't ban you. Dunno where "bedwetting" comes from, but I am sure you feel very smug about it.
    Here you are, courtesy of the Urban Dictionary:

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...ting%20liberal


    Bedwetting Liberal is a derogatory term used to describe people of a political leaning. The term bedwetting is used to denote a hand-wringing, scared, worrisome, pansy attitude, afraid of their own shadows. The term liberal denotes the love of spending, social programs, handholding and acceptance of such things as illegal immigration and allowance of the same to have all of the social benefits of being in the United States.

    Bedwetting Liberals are generally terrified of Republicans and conservatives. They shriek at the thought of combat operations or allowing the police to do their jobs. They are quick to point fingers, cry to the media and ACLU, and snivel about attempts to maintain US heritage because it might “offend” somebody.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    First off let me just say I didn't watch Mr Gentry and don't know who that is, but so far these sound like Fox News talking points:
    Ahhh my favorite, "I didn't pay attention to anything you posted but I have an opinion based on something else..." laughable

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    92% of blacks were murdered by other blacks last year because most people are murdered by people that they know. If you looked at how many whites were murdered by other whites it would be about the same.
    In 2010 the number of deaths not due to suicide was 12 thousand, the number of deaths due to black on black killing was 9 thousand.... all for a population percentage of 13% makes for a pretty fucking compelling argument does it not? So the answer is feel free to do some looking at crime statistics before making wild and false speculations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    I'm sorry the crime rate in Chicago is so high. What else do you expect America to say? I don't live in Chicago and I'm not from there. Why do expect answers from me? How are we supposed to have a national conversation on a local problem?
    Chicago is an example. The same can be said for MOST population dense areas. The same idea is captured in national statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    Blacks in LA always riot whenever there is perceived discrimation in Florida. Remember Rodney King?
    I remember quite clearly the abusive police officer case in LA that caused the LA riots. How does that equate to the current situation?


    The bottom line is that the man in the video is expressing outrage that a singular homicide incites so much outrage when the elephant in the room is barely mentioned because it doesnt meet the 'racial' criteria for discussion.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    The word racist comes to mind whenever I hear about the reporters who dig up these statistics and pretend they actually mean anything.
    You should read the statistics instead of pretending to understand whatever the fuck you're talking about. BTW the guy is a black man who makes youtube videos and has about as much credibility in the media as you do.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  36. #186
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No one knows how it would have ended.
    Actually, we do.

    If George Zimmerman had not owned a gun, Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman would both still be alive.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Actually, we do.

    If George Zimmerman had not owned a gun, Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman would both still be alive.
    Not necessarily. Higher probability but any altercation can end in death.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  38. #188

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Wow, "a white cracker"? Could you describe him in even more racist terms? Was he making orangutan sounds as well? Must have, right?
    Martin told his girlfriend a " cracker" was following him. She told him it might be a gay rapist who might follow him home me where his little brother was.

  39. #189

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You should read the statistics instead of pretending to understand whatever the fuck you're talking about. BTW the guy is a black man who makes youtube videos and has about as much credibility in the media as you do.
    I have read the statistics. You clearly haven't.

    Oh, and next time you and Jack Springer want to have a conversation about a YouTube on JUB how about you try posting link instead of acting like we should all know what the fuck you two are talking about.

  40. #190
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Post 137 http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...=1#post8995886

    I will accept your apology now for getting angry over your own display of ignorance.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  41. #191
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Not necessarily. Higher probability but any altercation can end in death.
    No. It is almost unheard of for a physical brawl (without weapons) to result in death.

    And, of course, Zimmerman would not even have pursued Martin if he had not possessed a concealed weapon. Zimmerman is a coward who relies upon guns to compensate for his failures as a human being. He is a psychopath with a long history of violence. Zimmerman would not have confronted Martin without the certainty that his concealed weapon would make up for his lack of social and physical abilities.

    There is no question. If Zimmerman had not owned a gun, both of these men would still be alive.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; July 18th, 2013 at 04:41 PM.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    No. It is almost unheard of for a physical brawl (without weapons) to result in death.

    And, of course, Zimmerman would not even have pursued Martin if he had not possessed a concealed weapon. Zimmerman is a coward who relies upon guns to compensate for his failures as a human being. He is a psychopath with a long history of violence.

    There is no question. If Zimmerman had not owned a gun, both of these men would still be alive.
    Zimmerman was a psychopath with a long history of violence? Please show some sources. I have watched the trial and surely the prosecution would have detailed the suspects violent past. Please illuminate me.

    I do agree that Zimmerman was made into a bold man by his possession of a weapon and equally that he would not have left the car without a gun on his hip.

    weird bunch of returns on just one bare handed type of attack such as a punch https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...w=1280&bih=610

    i would say unheard of is a bit far... perhaps unwilling to be evaluated by you as a cause of death. I have been involed in through investigation of cause in two such cases. Cheers
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  43. #193
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    I was able to find several "key, johnny on the spot, after it was a nationwide spectacle" witnesses that claim he was violent and one charge of resisting and officer battery when he was arrested for intoxication. that clearly makes him a menace... ??
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  44. #194
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Zimmerman was a psychopath with a long history of violence? Please show some sources.
    Zimmerman's girlfriend obtained a restraining order against him, because of her fear that he would hurt her.

    Zimmerman had a prior arrest for assaulting a police officer.

    Zimmerman was fired from a job as a bouncer, because of his "anger issues."


    http://globalgrind.com/news/george-z...lorida-details

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...er-he-Snapped#

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1053223


    Zimmerman is a sociopath. His pursuit of Trayvon Martin was a manifestation of that. You don't go chasing after teen-aged boys who are just passing through your neighborhood (especially when you have specifically been advised to back off) unless there is something deep inside you, driving you on.


    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    i would say unheard of is a bit far... perhaps unwilling to be evaluated by you as a cause of death. I have been involed in through investigation of cause in two such cases. Cheers
    If you're going to argue on the basis of authority, you've just been trumped.

    I was the second-highest ranking law enforcement officer in the eighth largest county in Ohio for nine years. Not only did we not have a single case of abnormal death due to a fight not involving weapons during my tenure, I am not sure that it has ever happened in the county's 210 year history (I spent a lot of time reviewing our historical records for our annual reports). Nor have I ever heard of it happening, anywhere.

    I am sure it has happened somewhere, at some time. But it is extremely rare.

    If George Zimmerman had not been armed, both he and Trayvon Martin would still be alive.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; July 18th, 2013 at 05:22 PM.

  45. #195
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    If that means an innocent person has to walk around with a question mark over their head until they are declared innocent, it is worth it not to allow people to be killed in unreasonable and unnecessary situations and their killer go free.
    Just to clarify for me, are you suggesting that the principle of innocent until PROVEN guilty does not apply in cases where lethal force is involved? Not trying to put words in your mouth just trying to be clear on your point.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  46. #196

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Martin told his girlfriend a " cracker" was following him. She told him it might be a gay rapist who might follow him home me where his little brother was.
    I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Did Martin attack Zimmerman because he was afraid Zimmerman was going to rape his younger brother?

  47. #197

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    I have read the statistics. You clearly haven't.

    Oh, and next time you and Jack Springer want to have a conversation about a YouTube on JUB how about you try posting link instead of acting like we should all know what the fuck you two are talking about.
    JH posted the youtube video -- I took the time to watch it -- you should have also. Please don't comment on things you know nothing about -- it makes you look small.

    Here's is another link -- Charles Barkley commenting on the trial. You need to read the article and watch the video also. Barkley watched the trial -- he has the right to comment.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...e_verdict.html

  48. #198

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Zimmerman's girlfriend obtained a restraining order against him, because of her fear that he would hurt her.

    Zimmerman had a prior arrest for assaulting a police officer.

    Zimmerman was fired from a job as a bouncer, because of his "anger issues."


    http://globalgrind.com/news/george-z...lorida-details

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...er-he-Snapped#

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1053223


    Zimmerman is a sociopath. His pursuit of Trayvon Martin was a manifestation of that. You don't go chasing after teen-aged boys who are just passing through your neighborhood (especially when you have specifically been advised to back off) unless there is something deep inside you, driving you on.




    If you're going to argue on the basis of authority, you've just been trumped.

    I was the second-highest ranking law enforcement officer in the eighth largest county in Ohio for nine years. Not only did we not have a single case of abnormal death due to a fight not involving weapons during my tenure, I am not sure that it has ever happened in the county's 210 year history (I spent a lot of time reviewing our historical records for our annual reports). Nor have I ever heard of it happening, anywhere.

    I am sure it has happened somewhere, at some time. But it is extremely rare.

    If George Zimmerman had not been armed, both he and Trayvon Martin would still be alive.
    Not if Martin opened Zimmerman's skull on the concrete sidewalk.

  49. #199
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Not if Martin opened Zimmerman's skull on the concrete sidewalk.
    It is a medically documented fact that Zimmerman's wounds were superficial. Not even close to being life-threatening.

    The fact remains. If Zimmerman had not owned a gun, both he and Trayvon Martin would be alive today.

    Zimmerman's perception of danger was a manifestation of his own insecurities and lack of confidence in his ability to defend himself without an unfair advantage. It was not a reflection of reality.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; July 18th, 2013 at 06:12 PM.

  50. #200
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Charles Barkley, the voice of reason.

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