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  1. #101
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    CNN had a juror on last night. She is not writing a book. Several of the commentators called her a racist based on that she called Zimmerman by his first name (she also called Trayvon by his first name). She said the jury did not talk about race. She appeared to be very frank and answered all of the questions.

    My personal opinion is that she should have stayed quiet. CNN gave info on her employment, her husband's employment, and how many children she had -- I'm sure some media person (other than CNN) has already found her. Her life will never be the same -- now even more people will not want to do jury duty. Maybe, we just need to change things and have the media and politicians be the jury since they already decide who is guilty and who is innocent.
    Her Husband is a attorney and this is the jury member who along with her husband are thinking of writing a book. Though she claims it will not be for profit, and I claim you can drink salt water too.
    CNN didn't pay her but of course pr is usually done for free. If the book comes out there is no doubt it will claim she was the first juror to publicly speak on CNN Anderson cooper show.

    Shocking when asked if she felt bad for what happened to Trayvon Martin her reply was "I fell bad for both of them (Martin/Zimmerman)". Shit Martin is dead and Zimmerman isn't

    I do agree she seemed real and I appreciate her reply that it was looked as a murder case and not a racial case. This is a case revolving around the stand your ground law regardless of personal prejudice or not. Based on one of the defendants story because the other is dead.

  2. #102
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    The woman known publicly only as B-37, her jury selection designation, now says that serving in sequestration as a juror "shielded me from the depth of pain that exists among the general public over every aspect of this case."

    "The potential book was always intended to be a respectful observation of the trial from my and my husband's perspectives solely and it was to be an observation that our 'system' of justice can get so complicated that it creates a conflict with our 'spirit' of justice," she said. "Now that I am returned to my family and to society in general, I have realized that the best direction for me to go is away from writing any sort of book and return instead to my life as it was before I was called to sit on this jury."
    George Zimmerman juror B-37 drops plans to write book, agent says

  3. #103
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Thank you, I think that will be best for the Country.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  4. #104
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The radio had a comment from one of the jurors this morning. Her comments seem to indicate the jury came to the same conclusions I did about the case. Early on in the public outcry on the story a newspaper commentator said that this was a tragedy but not the evil melodrama tragedy that most were painting it but more a classical Greek tragedy were the the main players did not have evil intent and may even have thought they were doing the right thing but because of stupid mistakes on the case of one or both of them disaster befell all.
    That's an interesting take, deserving of some thought.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #105
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Here is a report of the the one juror's interview. The jury concluded that both parties did wrong, but Martin stuck the first blow and that Zimmerman was in fear for his life when he pulled the gun. With those findings of fact, the jury's decision was correct. None of us were at the trial or heard all the evidence, so we cannot say that the jury was wrong.
    Given that the judge excluded some evidence, the jury didn't hear it all, either.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Given that the judge excluded some evidence, the jury didn't hear it all, either.
    And they especially didn't get to hear what a bad, bad boy the dead kid was.

  7. #107

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    And they especially didn't get to hear what a bad, bad boy the dead kid was.
    See Henry, comments like these make me wonder if you're actually a liberal troll since no one could possibly think the arrest records of Zimmerman or Martin were relevant to the jury. Not to mention its really not even true considering the shirtless pic the jury saw of him.

    Really Henry, this comment is so bad you make the race interpretation MSNBC is pushing over this case actually seem legit.
    Last edited by Vitamin; July 16th, 2013 at 11:59 AM.

  8. #108
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by rocabar View Post
    SAME prosecutor, different verdicts.

    Do I smell a possible conspiracy here? I don't hear anybody talking about it at all. I'll theorize it here.

    The prosecutor for "the state" is responsible for all the prosecutions in his/her jurisdiction, right?

    I'm not at all convinced that all prosecutors are impartial, always committing their labors to assure that the outcome of the court trial is appropriate, and fits the crime. It's SUPPOSED to be that way, but is it?

    Could this prosecutor be acting upon personal biases? He seemed overly eager to make sure that the woman who fired the warning shot into the ceiling would be sent to prison as long as possible - even some murderers don't get the sentences that she got.

    The prosecution, last week, seemed to prosecute the case against Zimmerman only half-heartedly at best, and their FAIL to come up with rebuttals or important questions, etc., was EPIC. It was almost as though the prosecution hoped that Zimmerman would simply walk.

    I freely admit that I mostly avoided coverage of the trial, and I have gone by how other people have summarized it. There seems to be a major agreement that the prosecution could have been much more aggressive and thorough than it was, though.

    Is it possible that the prosecution, indeed, decided to "blow" the case, giving enough information favorable to Zimmerman (by not questioning any of it) that the JURY would have too much doubt to convict...on ANY charge? Or am I just talking out of my ass here, and surmising something that could never possibly happen?

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  9. #109
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    SAME prosecutor, different verdicts.

    Do I smell a possible conspiracy here? I don't hear anybody talking about it at all. I'll theorize it here.

    The prosecutor for "the state" is responsible for all the prosecutions in his/her jurisdiction, right?

    I'm not at all convinced that all prosecutors are impartial, always committing their labors to assure that the outcome of the court trial is appropriate, and fits the crime. It's SUPPOSED to be that way, but is it?

    Could this prosecutor be acting upon personal biases? He seemed overly eager to make sure that the woman who fired the warning shot into the ceiling would be sent to prison as long as possible - even some murderers don't get the sentences that she got.

    The prosecution, last week, seemed to prosecute the case against Zimmerman only half-heartedly at best, and their FAIL to come up with rebuttals or important questions, etc., was EPIC. It was almost as though the prosecution hoped that Zimmerman would simply walk.

    I freely admit that I mostly avoided coverage of the trial, and I have gone by how other people have summarized it. There seems to be a major agreement that the prosecution could have been much more aggressive and thorough than it was, though.

    Is it possible that the prosecution, indeed, decided to "blow" the case, giving enough information favorable to Zimmerman (by not questioning any of it) that the JURY would have too much doubt to convict...on ANY charge? Or am I just talking out of my ass here, and surmising something that could never possibly happen?

    < grabs a pair of binoculars >
    < grabs some Arizona iced tea, and two cooked bags of >
    < backs away from thread >
    < retreats to the nearest silo (because there are no hills here), climbs to the top, and watches the thread destruct >
    I have yet to encounter a head prosecutor who didn't operate on some bias, whether some personal prejudice or a political agenda or religious bias. Assistant prosecutors are a different story -- the best prosecutor around here will never be more than an assistant because he's interested in truth and justice, not in scoring points or "winning" the "right" (kind of) cases; he's been in the same position for years and watched others advance past him.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #110
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    A CBS station in San Antonio Tx carried this story. Good for Stevie!


    http://www.kens5.com/news/entertainment/215697661.html



    Wonder won't sing in Fla. after Zimmerman verdict



    by Associated Press

    Posted on July 16, 2013 at 1:00 PM

    Updated yesterday at 1:07 PM

    NEW YORK (AP) — Stevie Wonder says he won't perform in Florida and other states with a "stand your ground" law.

    In a video posted on YouTube, the 63-year-old singer said at a concert in Quebec City, Canada, on Sunday "that until the 'stand your ground' law is abolished in Florida, I will never perform there again."

    Wonder added: "Wherever I find that law exists, I will not perform in that state or in that part of the world."
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  11. #111

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    I doubt Wonder actually realized that more than 30 states have the same law that Florida does.

    It's evident that Wonder did not listen to the trial along with our Attorney General. Neither listened because if they did, they would have known that 'stand your ground' was never mentioned during the trial.

  12. #112
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I doubt Wonder actually realized that more than 30 states have the same law that Florida does.

    It's evident that Wonder did not listen to the trial along with our Attorney General. Neither listened because if they did, they would have known that 'stand your ground' was never mentioned during the trial.
    I hope the others are better written than the Florida one.

    As for the trial, SYG didn't have to be mentioned. I presume that Wonder, along with many others, is assuming that if the law had not been in place, Zimmerman would have been more cautious.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #113
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Its not so much that he may have been more cautious, but that he wouldn't have such an easy excuse for taking somebody's life so easily.

    A law that permits the taking of life in self defence is serving to provide the escape from justice for anyone who can hatch a plan to do just that.
    There shouldn't be any legal acceptance of the right to use 'deadly force'. Such force is de facto covered under the right to self defence. It should not be a piece of legislature defining the parameter of whether it is acceptable or not, but your peers that decide whether such force is or isn't acceptable.

    Zimmerman was a provocateur, he failed to reasonably accept any responsibility for Trayvon Martin's behaviour that night, and used the law to escape justice for an excessive and unreasonable action on his part.
    Having such a law is a good thing; in Florida it has helped keep scores of innocent people from being prosecuted. The problem lies in the way the law was written -- something not surprising given who was the driving force behind it.

    It doesn't help that apparently the intent of the legislature doesn't seem to play a part in how courts in Florida interpret a law. Legislators both for and against the law have come forward to say it wasn't meant to cover things like drug deals gone bad or neighborhood watch captains stalking teenagers, but those statements have had no weight with how judges read the law. That is incredibly stupid, because it makes law a plaything of whoever can hire the most convincing lawyers, rather than something passed with an intent and meaning by elected representatives of the people.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #114
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Scores of innocent people, outside of the US, do not need such laws written to protect self-defensive action. If it is reasonable to take a life, it is forgiveable to take a life, but its people who should decide that, not a law that leaves police unable to press charges, or a prosecution to make a solid case.
    The one who should decide that is the one whose life is at risk. To hold otherwise is to deny individual dignity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    One reporter has come up with statistics showing that blacks benefit from SYG more than whites in Florida.

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/bl...rtionate-rate/

  16. #116

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Oh, i see. So you are suggesting that an individual's dignity is more important than someobody else's life? This is akin to honor killings in Pakistan. The shame, the shame.

    The very problem with this law is the individual being given the impetus to decide whether their action is justified or not, because quite clearly any criminal would be able to justify their actions by abusing the same law.

    Zimmerman felt that his actions were reasonable and justified, i believe he is a murderer, quite a difference in viewpoint. If your law says that the right answer belongs to Zimmerman, on the basis that he was 'involved', and so his decision to make, you're just excusing him from taking responsibility for his actions. Excusing him from facing justice for over-reacting to an altercation which HE played the biggest part in.

    The law is inexcusable. Its not that its badly written, its that its written at all. The taking of a life is a serious matter, and it shouldn't be trivialised by allowing life-takers (rightly or wrongly) to have the final say on whether their behaviour was acceptable or not.

    The US is headed for Idiocracy.
    Do you accept that Zimmerman was on his back, being pounded against the concret? Or, is it your position, that even if he was on his back being hit, he could not use the gun.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Do you accept that Zimmerman was on his back, being pounded against the concret? Or, is it your position, that even if he was on his back being hit, he could not use the gun.
    Of course he couldn't, when it was a fight HE instigated. Furthermore, this "on his back" part is new.
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  18. #118
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    I’ve seen clips of Juror B37's Shadow on CNN. When she said she felt George’s HEART was in the right place I was DONE. She does not know George Zimmerman & she doesn’t know his Heart. Hell, she doesn’t even know the Heart of her fellow Jurors. She ASSUMED George meant well by his actions that night. Then she said the other 5 Jurors feel the same Fucking way…LOL…

    The State & the Defense intentionally picked Women that hated the Media, hated the Trayvon rallies and support Gun Rights….The jurors allowed their sorrow for George determine their final judgment. They were a WASTE and I hope we NEVER see another 6-member jury and CERTAINLY not all Male/female.

    Now that the Juror has been Honest it’s time for the next wave of Justice.

  19. #119

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    However the fight started, when either party reasonably believes he is in danger of deaths or great bodily harm, he is entitled to defend himself, with deadly force, if necessary. The law does not require him to submit to death, even if he started the fight.
    Criminal prosecutions necessarily rely on the evidence available. No doubt injustice sometimes occurs, but there is no way to proceed without or against the evidence.

  20. #120
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    isn't it kind of their entire job to judge Zimmerman's intent?

  21. #121
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    isn't it kind of their entire job to judge Zimmerman's intent?
    Judge his intent not discuss what's in his heart as if you Grew up with the man...His 911 call was proof that his Heart wasnt in the right place when he saw Trayvon, a citizen he did not know...The Juror dismissed that..

    B37 said "Trayvon punched George First, he didnt have to do that".....Really Bitch?.....Is she a Psychic? What if George put his hands on Trayvon first, then pulled his Gun?

  22. #122
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    However the fight started, when either party reasonably believes he is in danger of deaths or great bodily harm, he is entitled to defend himself, with deadly force, if necessary. The law does not require him to submit to death, even if he started the fight.
    Criminal prosecutions necessarily rely on the evidence available. No doubt injustice sometimes occurs, but there is no way to proceed without or against the evidence.
    That's total bullshit, and most self-defense laws in this country do not allow self defense when you start a fight, stand your ground or otherwise. You shouldn't (and aren't) allowed to go around picking fights and then shooting people who fight back. It just doesn't work that way. And by Stand Your Ground logic, then he should submit to death if he starts the fight seeing as how the person he started a fight with has a right to stand their ground as well.

  23. #123

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    No one is obligated to submit to death.

  24. #124
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No one is obligated to submit to death.
    ^ That's an assumption to believe that Trayvon even intended to kill George Zimmerman. Trayvon was, after all, the victim of being stalked. I find it preposterous that the choice to live or die falls solely on the lethally armed man, Zimmerman, who provoked the conflict. Trayvon had just as much right to live as Zimmerman did.
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  25. #125

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    One reporter has come up with statistics showing that blacks benefit from SYG more than whites in Florida.

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/bl...rtionate-rate/
    The Daily Caller list is based on this . . . .

    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-g...aw/fatal-cases

  26. #126

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Of course he couldn't, when it was a fight HE instigated. Furthermore, this "on his back" part is new.
    You didn't listen to the trial -- otherwise you'd know it wasn't 'new'.

  27. #127
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    All that can be said has been said in this thread regarding the TM and GZ case.

    I saw this video on facebook and found it on youtube. This in no way justifies anything Zimmerman did but is an interesting perspective to take onboard.

    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  28. #128

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    I rarely listen to local news because of the black-on-black crime reported every morning on the news where I live -- I think JH knows what I mean.

    Mr. Gentry had some great points. We all need to look inside ourselves rather than try to put the blame on others.

  29. #129
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Um, there is some very specific blame here, which falls on someone definitely not me...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  30. #130
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Oh, i see. So you are suggesting that an individual's dignity is more important than someobody else's life? This is akin to honor killings in Pakistan. The shame, the shame.

    The very problem with this law is the individual being given the impetus to decide whether their action is justified or not, because quite clearly any criminal would be able to justify their actions by abusing the same law.

    Zimmerman felt that his actions were reasonable and justified, i believe he is a murderer, quite a difference in viewpoint. If your law says that the right answer belongs to Zimmerman, on the basis that he was 'involved', and so his decision to make, you're just excusing him from taking responsibility for his actions. Excusing him from facing justice for over-reacting to an altercation which HE played the biggest part in.

    The law is inexcusable. Its not that its badly written, its that its written at all. The taking of a life is a serious matter, and it shouldn't be trivialised by allowing life-takers (rightly or wrongly) to have the final say on whether their behaviour was acceptable or not.

    The US is headed for Idiocracy.
    Excellent job of ignoring the substance of my post so you can rant.

    If this law had been written properly, no criminal would be able to take advantage of it at all -- and Zimmerman would either have backed off or be headed for prison. Unfortunately, we had Marion Hammer driving the effort.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  31. #131
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Of course he couldn't, when it was a fight HE instigated.
    And that's the view that's been expressed by those legislators who sponsored the law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    However the fight started, when either party reasonably believes he is in danger of deaths or great bodily harm, he is entitled to defend himself, with deadly force, if necessary. The law does not require him to submit to death, even if he started the fight.
    Criminal prosecutions necessarily rely on the evidence available. No doubt injustice sometimes occurs, but there is no way to proceed without or against the evidence.
    That isn't what the legislative author of the law or his cosponsors have said. According to them, the law was not meant to protect people who initiate confrontations.

    Zimmerman should be in prison.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That isn't what the legislative author of the law or his cosponsors have said. According to them, the law was not meant to protect people who initiate confrontations.
    The SYG law in Florida was written by the NRA.

    It is specifically designed to encourage confrontation between parties.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Zimmerman should be in prison.
    Agreed. It is hard to understand how a man with a prior arrest for assaulting a police officer, whose girlfriend obtained a restraining order against him because she considered him violent, who was once fired from his job as a bouncer because he was provoking customers senselessly, and who tracked down and killed a kid because the kid was black would be given his gun back.

    Zimmerman has some serious psychological problems. He needs to be in therapy. And he needs never to be permitted to touch a gun again. Ever.

    But, Zimmerman is precisely the kind of man who is attracted to guns. When one has no social skills, no negotiation skills, no athleticism, and no self-confidence, a gun becomes a psychological replacement for ability. Zimmerman may not be much of a man. But at least he can kill you.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; July 17th, 2013 at 09:49 PM.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The SYG law in Florida was written by the NRA.
    More precisely, it was written by Marion Hammer. That's why I said "the legislative author" -- the legislator who officially write it.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It is specifically designed to encourage confrontation between parties.
    Extremely doubtful. OTOH, from what I know of Hammer, she wouldn't go out of her way to stop a drug dealer from jumping Wayne La Pierre. That's why she opposed every effort to amend the bill to actually say what its sponsors intended it to mean. I suspect she's one of the sort who think that the best way to make American society respectful again would be to issue every person a Glock and two hundred rounds of ammo and wait until things quiet down.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Agreed. It is hard to understand how a man with a prior arrest for assaulting a police officer, whose girlfriend obtained a restraining order against him because she considered him violent, who was once fired from his job as a bouncer because he was provoking customers senselessly, and who tracked down and killed a kid because the kid was black would be given his gun back.

    Zimmerman has some serious psychological problems. He needs to be in therapy. And he needs never to be permitted to touch a gun again. Ever.
    And this should be appealed, if for no other reason than to get clear in the courts that the person who instigates a confrontation has no right to self-defense -- because it's not defense, but offense.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; July 17th, 2013 at 09:58 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And this should be appealed, iof for no other reason than to get clear in the courts that the person who instigates a confrontation has no right to self-defense -- because it's not defense, but offense.
    That's not SYG. A requirement to try to stand down or run away from a confrontation was the law prior to SYG. SYG was created specifically to encourage an escalation to violence in human confrontations, and consequently to discourage nonviolent alternatives. The requirement to stand down was not the American way, so it was eliminated in favor of SYG.

    This case cannot be appealed in order "to get clear in the courts that the person who instigates a confrontation has no right to self-defense," because SYG laws specifically grant to perpetrators a right to escalate violence in a confrontation even to the point of murder without consequence for the perpetrator. Obviously. And that's exactly what happened here.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    BTW, Ohio is the only state in the nation where it is required under the law for perpetrators to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were acting in self-defense when they assaulted someone.

    The only one - out of 50.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    That's not SYG. A requirement to try to stand down or run away from a confrontation was the law prior to SYG. SYG was created specifically to encourage an escalation to violence in human confrontations, and consequently to discourage nonviolent alternatives. The requirement to stand down was not the American way, so it was eliminated in favor of SYG.

    This case cannot be appealed in order "to get clear in the courts that the person who instigates a confrontation has no right to self-defense," because SYG laws specifically grant to perpetrators a right to escalate violence in a confrontation even to the point of murder without consequence for the perpetrator. Obviously. And that's exactly what happened here.
    Yes it is SYG, according to everything the NRA claimed beforehand and the sponsors of the law have been saying. The law isn't supposed to allow an aggressor to kill someone, but to allow a victim to fight back, to not need to run. That's what "stand your ground" means: to fight back when attacked, NOT to attack. Zimmerman shouldn't be covered by SYG because he wasn't standing his ground, he was invading someone else's.

    By your definition, Germany was "standing its ground" when it invaded Poland.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yes it is SYG, according to everything the NRA claimed beforehand and the sponsors of the law have been saying. The law isn't supposed to allow an aggressor to kill someone, but to allow a victim to fight back, to not need to run. That's what "stand your ground" means: to fight back when attacked, NOT to attack. Zimmerman shouldn't be covered by SYG because he wasn't standing his ground, he was invading someone else's.
    The intent of stand your ground laws is not to "allow a victim to fight back." It is to protect gun owners from prosecution under any circumstances whatsoever, regardless of how reckless, provocative, or lethal has been the gun owner's behavior. The law was written by the NRA to protect gun owners, not victims of crime.

    The Florida law specifically allows a person wielding a weapon to pursue and assault another person so long as the pursuer "feels threatened" by the person he is pursuing. No standard is established as to what should constitute "feeling threatened." So, presumably, an abundance of melanin in the skin is sufficient grounds for feeling threatened. Indeed, that is precisely what happened here.

    The jury had no choice but to let Zimmerman go free. Zimmerman has the right to run down and kill anyone he finds threatening. Florida does not require the pursuer to prove that his actions were in self-defense. There is only one state in America that requires pursuers under SYG to prove that their actions were carried out in self-defense, and that is Ohio. Murder is legal in Florida.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    By your definition, Germany was "standing its ground" when it invaded Poland.
    It's not MY definition. It is the NRA's and Florida's.

    And yes, by their definition Germany was standing its ground when it invaded Poland. And Japan was standing its ground when it attacked Pearl Harbor. In fact, if you read what was being written at the time, the arguments advanced by those countries in explanation of their actions sound very much like the arguments for "stand your ground" in America today. Even today, if you ask the average Japanese school child why his country attacked the USA in WWII, he will tell you the truth as it is known to him: That Japan had no choice but to attack. Japan was deliberately provoked into war against her will by the United States of America. The attack was a defensive maneuver entirely, and entirely honorable.

    Japan (and Germany) were just standing their ground. Neither country did anything wrong.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; July 18th, 2013 at 03:08 AM.

  39. #139

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Um, there is some very specific blame here, which falls on someone definitely not me...
    You didn't watch the video or else you would have known what I was talking about.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I rarely listen to local news because of the black-on-black crime reported every morning on the news where I live -- I think JH knows what I mean.

    Mr. Gentry had some great points. We all need to look inside ourselves rather than try to put the blame on others.
    Well I do not have to be located in KC to understand that fact of crime. I watch Phil Defranco almost everyday as well and that guy put it fairly accurately... Most protests have been peaceful but the idiots in LA?? Throwing a trash can at a jack in the box does what? How about kicking a person at a bus stop? All of those things typify the reactionist attitude that all black men are violent and scary. Along with a murder rate dominated by black on black crime.

    So what Mr. Gentry said was quite apropos. How can the black community get so upset because a non black killed one when blacks are killing each other by the thousands and you hear barely a peep out of the same leaders in their community.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  41. #141

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Well I do not have to be located in KC to understand that fact of crime. I watch Phil Defranco almost everyday as well and that guy put it fairly accurately... Most protests have been peaceful but the idiots in LA?? Throwing a trash can at a jack in the box does what? How about kicking a person at a bus stop? All of those things typify the reactionist attitude that all black men are violent and scary. Along with a murder rate dominated by black on black crime.

    So what Mr. Gentry said was quite apropos. How can the black community get so upset because a non black killed one when blacks are killing each other by the thousands and you hear barely a peep out of the same leaders in their community.
    First off let me just say I didn't watch Mr Gentry and don't know who that is, but so far these sound like Fox News talking points:

    92% of blacks were murdered by other blacks last year because most people are murdered by people that they know. If you looked at how many whites were murdered by other whites it would be about the same.

    I'm sorry the crime rate in Chicago is so high. What else do you expect America to say? I don't live in Chicago and I'm not from there. Why do expect answers from me? How are we supposed to have a national conversation on a local problem?

    Blacks in LA always riot whenever there is perceived discrimation in Florida. Remember Rodney King?

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    .. How can the black community get so upset because a non black killed one when blacks are killing each other by the thousands and you hear barely a peep out of the same leaders in their community.
    The word hypocrisy comes to mind.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The intent of stand your ground laws is not to "allow a victim to fight back." It is to protect gun owners from prosecution under any circumstances whatsoever, regardless of how reckless, provocative, or lethal has been the gun owner's behavior. The law was written by the NRA to protect gun owners, not victims of crime.
    Thanks for making it clear you're talking out of your own paranoia and not from any facts or reality. The legislative sponsors of this law would laugh in your face at your fantasy -- more than one is already on record that the law did not intend to cover Zimmerman.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  44. #144

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The word hypocrisy comes to mind.
    The word racist comes to mind whenever I hear about the reporters who dig up these statistics and pretend they actually mean anything.
    Last edited by Vitamin; July 18th, 2013 at 09:05 AM.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I did not ignore anything about your post, and nor did i rant.

    I firstly responded to your point about an individuals right to determine whether the force they use is reasonable, on account that you say to do otherwise, is to deny their dignity. I then mocked that on the basis that there are more important things in life than a persons dignity (like a person's LIFE), and that the comment reminded me of how a culture in Pakistan and around that region put their family honour BEFORE love of their family, also with tragic consequences.
    You're ranting again. This has absolutely nothing to do with "honor". And if someone is threatening my life, he's already surrendered any right to his, voluntarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Now T-Rexx has argued very well about why this law is wrong. I'll look at it like this.

    If the law was created to permit innocent people to use whatever force is necessary, which i am taking is your case, then it is a pointless law. Where self defence is concerned, whatever country you live, you have the right to do whatever it takes to defend yourself, and as T-Rexx said, that was no different prior to SYG being dreamt up. This means that the law MUST have been created to serve another function.
    Before SYG, the law -- as it is now in Oregon, BTW -- was written for lawyers. Only someone trained in the law about self-defense could possibly respond in any situation where it was necessary in a way likely to avoid prosecution. But even a lawyer who'd studied all the case law couldn't be certain he knew exactly what force was "necessary" unless he had a time machine so he could freeze the moment and examine it from every angle. In other words, the law didn't allow self-defense, it allowed gambling with one's own life whether a victim succeeded in fending off an attacker or not.

    The "in whatever country" line is hilarious: anyone alert at all knows that people who have defended themselves against assault have ended up in prison in the UK and in quite a number of US states.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I believe that other function was to try and give immunity to innocent people who take life in self defence, not to allow people to do it, but to take care of them after the fact, specifically due to percieved injustice, whenever an innocent person had been convicted of manslaughter or murder despite claiming self defence.
    No, it defined the right to self-defense. If all you really have is the right to either submit or gamble with your life, you have no right of self-defense. It restores the ancient common-law right to judge how to respond when attacked.

    You actually recognize that there really was no right to self-defense in your sentence above, when you acknowledge that people have been convicted of manslaughter or murder for defending themselves. That's the idiocy the SYG law is meant to correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Now, the problem here is this, that if innocent people, who are genuinely innocent, cannot convince a jury that they acted reasonably, then there is a route of appeal is there not? Instead, someone dreamt up this little gem, which allows people to justify excessive and even unnecessary force without having to worry about the fallout. But we are talking about people's lives, there SHOULD be questions, there SHOULD be judgement on a persons actions, and no legislation should exist that obstructs those questions and judgements. SYG clearly DOES do that, the police took no action to begin with. if this law allows the police to make the decision, how the hell on earth are you supposed to secure justice for the innocent people who are killed by abusers of this law???
    So your position is that those who defend their own lives should have to pile up legal expenses and suffer through jail time, having their lives and the lives of their loved ones disrupted and possibly ruined, because they defended themselves? Where is the "right to self defense" in that? If you're being treated as a criminal, being punished for an action, then you didn't have any right to that action.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Its no good saying that the law is badly written. Its no good saying that it doesn't allow the aggressors to claim it as a defence. The burden is on the prosecution to prove that an aggressor WAS in fact the aggressor. With lack of proof, the guilty will walk.
    Any way the law is written, there will always exist that loophole that allows somebody to passively goad somebody into attacking them, and then shooting to kill. Where are you possibly going to get the evidence that it was the guy with the gun who was the aggressor, when he may be the only witness (so hardly going to incriminate himself), and if there are witnesses, they'll testify that perhaps they didn't hear the verbal exchange (where the killer provokes his victim), but did see the victim attack. So now in court, the victim looks like the aggressor according to the available evidence.
    "Better a thousand guilty walk free than one innocent man be punished." -- Thomas Jefferson, citing an ancient principle of law.

    That you can blithely propose that we continue to send innocent people to jail or let them suffer at the hands of criminals because they aren't lawyers trained ahead of time in just exactly how much force is needed when they're attacked shows you have no understanding of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The law is pathetic. I'm pleased that Ohio at least requires someone to prove they had no choice, as this at least allows OTHER people to decide if in fact that WAS reasonable action to take. It is not about denying an individual dignity Kuli, but about ensuring justice is done. If that means an innocent person has to walk around with a question mark over their head until they are declared innocent, it is worth it not to allow people to be killed in unreasonable and unnecessary situations and their killer go free.

    So Kuli, in what way exactly is this law a good thing, because as far as i can tell, it was NEVER needed in the first place.
    If being arrested for protecting yourself, sitting in jail and having your life disrupted and possibly ruined, depriving your loved ones of your presence, is :dignity", then there should never have been a revolution in South Africa; after all, Mandela had dignity, by your measure.

    What the Ohio law does is declare that the innocent have no power, and the criminal has it all. It tells the criminal that he can do as he pleases, because his victims -- unless they're lawyers, or the rich and powerful -- will be afraid to fight back. It's the sort of law a Romney would like, that leaves everyone but those who can afford high-profile lawyers stuck in a morass of uncertainty.

    What the SYG laws do -- when written clearly -- is tell the innocent, however wealthy they may or may not be, that they actually can strike back without fear of punishment for exercising the most basic human right. What they do not do is authorize the initiation of force. Florida's law is poorly written because of Marion Hammer, NRA lobbyess from Hell, who fought every attempt to make it clearer. Amendments proposed by Republicans in Florida would have clarified the meaning so that even obtuse lawyers and judges could get the idea -- let alone the amendments proposed by various Democrats.

    I sincerely hope that someone manages to "stand his ground" against Hammer... the sooner the better. Maybe a bullet through a lung will clarify things for her the way she refused to have them clarified for her fellow citizens.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    The word racist comes to mind .
    It may come to mind, but 'racist' has become, through overuse, a totally meaningless term these days.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Thanks for making it clear you're talking out of your own paranoia and not from any facts or reality. The legislative sponsors of this law would laugh in your face at your fantasy -- more than one is already on record that the law did not intend to cover Zimmerman.
    Your defense of the Florida legislators - that they were too stupid to have understood what they were doing - is laughable. The problems with the law were debated at the time it was passed. They have been debated continuously since. This is not some unpredictable and unforeseeable outcome. This is exactly what opponents said would happen.

    But if the legislators now believe they made a mistake, why do they not now favor repeal of this law? Why did they beat back an attempt by Democrats to modify it? Why does governor Rick Scott continue to insist it is a good law?

    Stand your ground in Florida did exactly what it was intended to do - protect a white gun owner from liability for the use of his gun in the murder of another human being. The law is functioning exactly as intended. Why would Florida legislators, therefore, want to change it?

  48. #148

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    It may come to mind, but 'racist' has become, through overuse, a totally meaningless term these days.
    I'll take your deflection as an admittance of guilt.
    Last edited by Vitamin; July 18th, 2013 at 11:03 AM.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    I'll take your deflection as an admittance of guilt.
    Take it anyway you like, including up yours, but the fact remains that the term 'racist' is tossed about with so little regard for the truth, that it has, in fact, become meaningless.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Thats tosh. Black on black killings have zero possible racist connections is probably why no big deal is made about it. The Zimmerman case was interesting in that respect. I Zimmerman was black, he may, and i say may, have got away without going to trial first. What got people so angry, was not simply the injustice, but the lack of any justifiable reason as to why Trayvon Martin was deemed to be a suspect criminal. Since it is not a suspect thing for ANYBODY to be walking down the street with iced tea and skittles, chatting on the phone as you go, what possible fact could have made that lightbulb in Zimmermans head switch on? The fact that Trayvon may have been racially profiled, adds a dimension that doesn't exist in a black on black killing in the exact same circumstances. It is an injustice either way.
    So you're saying that as long as blacks are being killed by the right people, it doesn't matter?

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