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  1. #51
    The Boy Next Door LuvFindsAndyHardy's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    You beat me to it, Bob.

    Shocking that Reardon would follow the line of thought handed down by "Fox News on High" isn't it?

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    What's not shocking is the level of disingenuousness you guys display.

    Nobody said that Martin deserved to die. What you bedwetters can't seem to face up to is the fact that the media painted Martin as an innocent little boy, and you swallowed the lie, hook, like, and sinker.

    There's a lot more to the story that has been shown on any media outlet, including Fox.

  3. #53
    It ain't easy being King MisterMajestic's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    MSNBC reported this morning that the Judge issued an anonymity order for the Jurors. Their names will not be released or anything. They will have ZERO contact with the Media. So we may NEVER know their thoughts..

  4. #54
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    What you bedwetters can't seem to face up to ...
    Wowee!!!!!!

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    MSNBC . So we may NEVER know their thoughts..
    For which we should be eternally grateful. It's time to put the whole sorry business behind us.

  6. #56

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by rocabar View Post
    This is what happens when you don't pay attention. The Stand Your Ground defense was not used in court.

  7. #57

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    I watched a good bit of the Trial every day. It was so obvious The State's argument & presentation was lacking. Yes they worked with what they had but they didn't go after The Defense witnesses hard enough in my opinion.The State threw in Manslaughter at the 11th hour as a safety-net and didn't explain it to the Jurors...I'm not saying The State did a BAD job but they could have countered Blow for Blow with The Defense had they tried harder.

    We talked about The Zimmerman case in this Forum BEFORE it went to trial and most of us agreed he'd get off. I think most Black Folks felt the same way. There's no REAL shock, just disappointment because a Grown man Profiled & stalked a teenager.

    The FIRST EVER 6 Female Jurors did what they were selected to do.. A Reporter stated when they walked into the Court room last night they didn't look at George and when they left they STILL did not look at him. George is VERY, very, very FORTUNATE the 6 women FOLLOWED instructions, stuck with the evidence and the LAW. Like so many others have said sometimes a "Not Guilty' verdict does NOT mean the jurors felt the defendant was "innocent". We'll know more when & if the Jurors talk to the Press..

    The Defence was AWESOME all 5 weeks of the trial. They are Today's Dream-Team...I felt they were Smug & hateful during the Victory Press conference..They WON and still came across as MAD as Hell...Don West kept saying "This WOULD have been terrible had george been found gulity!"...get over it, you WON ...Was HE in shock that he won?

    Something very interesting..Several years ago George was charged then CLEARED of assaulting an undercover Law officer and last night he was cleared of Shooting a kid while playing Cop.....So that's 2 for 2...He's untouchable..

    Will George Follow in O.J.'s foot-steps and end up getting into more trouble years from now? We'll have to wait and see...O.J. is a SERIOUS "mental' case and I have ALWAYS believed George is also Fucked up in the head...George is much younger than O.J. was back in the 90's and he could turn his Fame into something positive if he chooses to.

    And NBC might as well settle with George out of court cuz Mark O'mara is Brilliant & Ferocious and will DRAIN them in a court room...
    Very good analysis MM. The prosecution almost entirely relied on emotion not facts. One of the big reasons the defense lawyers were so upset is that the prosecution did not work well with them regarding pre-trial information. Murder 2 charges were only brought by the state by political pressure after local prosecutors and law enforcement said there were no grounds for charges.

    Zimmerman should not have to work a day in his life with the money he gets from NBC.

    It's sad that a young man died. We have a system that works -- at times we don't agree but we have to accept.

    Time to move on and concentrate on the reason why so many black men are killed on a nightly basis in the US.

    Let's look for a solution.

  8. #58
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    You can stop supporting the party of racist white men, that would be a good place to start...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #59

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Thanks for proving a point. This is not a political issue and yet people like you want to make it one.

  10. #60

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Most of the young black men are killed by other young black men. They have little chance of getting descent jobs, and their girlfriends are paid not to marry.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    The sad fact of the matter is that there should never have been a trial.

    We have a young black punk with an attitude (sort of a younger version of the current occupant of the White House) and a Hispanic (part black) man with something to prove. The collision was inevitable.

    The local police and prosecutors correctly determined that there were no charges needing to be filed.

    Enter the media, who created a shit-storm of attention, mostly by spreading false information (name one media outlet that ran a picture of Mr. Martin as he was at 17 instead of those pictures of him at 12), and the justice department started to apply pressure.
    The liberals fell for it, even more pressure was applied, and we had a trial and untold thousands of taxpayer dollars were wasted.

    Speaking of taxpayer dollars being wasted, it has since come to light that Holder's justice department spent some taxpayer dollars sending protestors to Sanford, Florida. This is the most arrogant and lawless administration we've seen in this century.

  12. #62
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    If you bother to research it, it is quite clear in the law. Like all things in life there will be some grey issues around the edges but the law is quite clear and fully in keeping with the natural right of self-defense. Whether a person has a gun or doesn't have a gun doesn't alter that.
    The law is not clear at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Statute 776.012 "Use of force in defense of person"
    A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the otherís imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
    So where is the line drawn? Why is it not reasonable to suspect that someone following you with a firearm isn't out to do you great bodily harm or cause you death? The Florida "Stand Your Ground" law allows people to use deadly force if they reasonably believe it will stop a forceable felony such as robbery or rape. So why wouldn't an armed male following a female not give rise to the idea that he may be ready to rape her?

    Here is a story that addresses the continuously expanding use of "Stand Your Ground" in Florida to get off from crimes because the law is so vague.

  13. #63
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The sad fact of the matter is that there should never have been a trial.

    We have a young black punk with an attitude (sort of a younger version of the current occupant of the White House) and a Hispanic (part black) man with something to prove. The collision was inevitable.

    The local police and prosecutors correctly determined that there were no charges needing to be filed.

    Enter the media, who created a shit-storm of attention, mostly by spreading false information (name one media outlet that ran a picture of Mr. Martin as he was at 17 instead of those pictures of him at 12), and the justice department started to apply pressure.
    The liberals fell for it, even more pressure was applied, and we had a trial and untold thousands of taxpayer dollars were wasted.

    Speaking of taxpayer dollars being wasted, it has since come to light that Holder's justice department spent some taxpayer dollars sending protestors to Sanford, Florida. This is the most arrogant and lawless administration we've seen in this century.
    First off, Zimmerman is half white and half Hispanic. He is not part black. Secondly, I don't remember when being young, black, or a punk became illegal. Third, you read way too many far right blogs. The info on the CRS in the DOJ has been taken so far out of context it's not even funny.

    Here is a link to the CRS website and what they do. I noticed that the FOIA response that Judicial Watch based their article off of was not provided, merely Judicial Watch's summary of it. In addition, they took select phrases from the CRS website and used them in a sinister context. One of the things the CRS does is mediation, which is done in strict confidentiality as most mediation is, and they used that in the context of "everything we do is secret." They also provide support to local groups, both public and private, that request their assistance to help calm various community issues. However, the support they provided was taken out of context by Judicial Watch to make it sound like they were organizing the rallies. Of course, all of this is why you don't find any of this in mainstream news and have to go to these ideological blogs and news sites to actually find it.

  14. #64
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The law is not clear at all.


    So where is the line drawn? Why is it not reasonable to suspect that someone following you with a firearm isn't out to do you great bodily harm or cause you death? The Florida "Stand Your Ground" law allows people to use deadly force if they reasonably believe it will stop a forceable felony such as robbery or rape. So why wouldn't an armed male following a female not give rise to the idea that he may be ready to rape her?

    Here is a story that addresses the continuously expanding use of "Stand Your Ground" in Florida to get off from crimes because the law is so vague.
    The line is drawn by item number one. "He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; " The issue is becoming clouded at the edges since it appears the state has allowed the definition of reasonable to be to broadly defined or not defined at all. As is usually the case with such laws, either there needs to be further clarification by the legislature or the courts will eventually work it out. There likely needs to be provision added to address criminal intent to the persons actions as a factor to negate the self defense claim. This would address the cases of criminals abusing the right.

    But if it is so confusing how would you define the right of self defense? How should Florida change it law without depriving its subjects of the natural right to defend oneself?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  15. #65
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Stand your Ground was never raised but the Defense did take the position that Zimmerman acted in self defense so in a way it is. But Stand your Ground and Self Defense are not the same thing only co-related.

    The defendant is innocent until PROVEN guilty in our system. The defense never had to prove that Zimmerman needed to 'stand his ground' they simply needed to show that the state's case raised a 'reasonable' doubt. To prove their case the state needed to:

    1. Show that Zimmerman started the fight. They was impossible since the available evidence could not show who started it.

    2. Show that Zimmerman pursued Martin with malice and intent to kill him (Murder 2). The only evidence they really had was a couple of swear words and speculation about his desire to be a cop. There was enough grayness and counter evidence to make both these points fall within reasonable doubt.

    3. That Zimmerman had no reason to fear for his life when he used deadly force. Quite frankly the simple fact that there was a fight and that Zimmerman was injured during it made this impossible to prove. Once the expert testified that his injuries 'could' have occurred as a result of striking the concrete and that such an impact no matter how minor was LIKELY to have caused a concussion, the idea that Zimmerman could not have perceived his life being in danger even if it wasn't was unprovable.
    Very nicely explained!

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So if Trayvon Martin had been carrying a gun and had shot and killed George Zimmerman because he was some strange guy with a weapon pursuing him, would the verdict have been the same?
    If Zimmerman had been pursuing Martin with a lethal weapon visible, and Martin had killed Zimmerman, there wouldn't even have been a trial-- stalking while carrying a lethal weapon means presumption of lethal intent, and even "Stand Your Ground" wouldn't have been needed.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #66
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    MSNBC reported this morning that the Judge issued an anonymity order for the Jurors. Their names will not be released or anything. They will have ZERO contact with the Media. So we may NEVER know their thoughts..
    Good. There are some things no man was meant to know.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #67
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The law is not clear at all.


    So where is the line drawn? Why is it not reasonable to suspect that someone following you with a firearm isn't out to do you great bodily harm or cause you death? The Florida "Stand Your Ground" law allows people to use deadly force if they reasonably believe it will stop a forceable felony such as robbery or rape. So why wouldn't an armed male following a female not give rise to the idea that he may be ready to rape her?

    Here is a story that addresses the continuously expanding use of "Stand Your Ground" in Florida to get off from crimes because the law is so vague.
    "Vague" is kind of an understatement.

    While many have argued the law does not allow someone to pick a fight and claim immunity, it has been used to do just that. It is broad enough that one judge complained that in a Wild West-type shootout, where everybody is armed, everyone might go free.

    "Each individual on each side of the exchange of gunfire can claim self-defense," Leon County Circuit Judge Terry P. Lewis wrote in 2010, saying it "could conceivably result in all persons who exchanged gunfire on a public street being immune from prosecution."

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #68
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thanks for proving a point. This is not a political issue and yet people like you want to make it one.
    It really is though.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  19. #69
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    "Poor little innocent Treyvon Martin"
    The guy was neither poor, nor quite so innocent, nor for that matter, little.
    The media shows us pictures of 12-year-old Treyvon, but the kid was 17, nearly 6'2", and weight 175.

    http://blunttrama.ning.com/profiles/...hoto-do-you-kn
    So what are you saying, HenryReardon? A big, black teenager justifiably deserved to be shot? Please, fill us in on your personal commentary of the case's outcome.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    According to Reuters, his great-grandfather was "afro-Peruvian"

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83O18H20120425

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    So what are you saying, HenryReardon? A big, black teenager justifiably deserved to be shot? Please, fill us in on your personal commentary of the case's outcome.
    Another lefty has already tried to take that ridiculous route.

    What I am saying is that this case was not what it was purported to be. Not like the media tried to paint it. Not at all.
    Which is why the verdict was not guilty.

  22. #72
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The line is drawn by item number one. "He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; " The issue is becoming clouded at the edges since it appears the state has allowed the definition of reasonable to be to broadly defined or not defined at all. As is usually the case with such laws, either there needs to be further clarification by the legislature or the courts will eventually work it out. There likely needs to be provision added to address criminal intent to the persons actions as a factor to negate the self defense claim. This would address the cases of criminals abusing the right.

    But if it is so confusing how would you define the right of self defense? How should Florida change it law without depriving its subjects of the natural right to defend oneself?
    I would define it as states without "Stand Your Ground" laws - you can be excused from using deadly force when all other avenues of diffusing the situation have been exhausted, including escaping if possible. For instance, here in Maryland, they have a "duty to retreat" law which says you must make an effort, if possible, to escape the violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://house.state.md.us/2007RS/fnotes/bil_0001/sb0761.pdf
    In order to succeed on a claim ofself-defense, the accused must have: (1) not been the aggressor or provoked the conflict; (2) had reasonable grounds to believe that he/she was in apparent imminent or immediate danger of losing his/her own life or incurring serious bodily harm from his/her assailant or potential assailant; (3) actually believed at the time that he/she faced this type of danger; and (4) not used more force than the situation demanded.
    Now I would make an exception in a person's home that they shouldn't be expected to retreat, but I especially agree with point number 4 - that you can't use more force that the situation demanded. In the Trayvon Martin case, even is Trayvon Martin was punching George Zimmerman (the evidence clearly indicated that it was this life threatening beating that Zimmerman claimed), then shooting him would have been excessive force, rather than kicking him or punching him back. Excessive force is demonized when police do it, but seems to be hailed as a victory for freedom when an armed citizen uses it, which is a double standard I see a lot with this case.

  23. #73

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It really is though.
    This sad death is only a cause for political discussion because you and other see it as a way to extend your agenda.

    I fully expect Holder to file charges in the next several weeks furthering the political angle. Holder would be better suited to address the problem of black-on-black murders and violence. The idea that my tax money via the DOJ was used to promote demonstrations before and during the trial makes me sick.

  24. #74
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    It's sad but what can you do. I have accepted today that my 2 brothers have corrupted their entire family because Obama got elected twice as President of the United States. My oldest has 2, boy and girl. His son helped me when I went into hosp last month. His son Great Nephew #1 in Air force. I don't know about him. Niece #1 has 2 girls. As far as I can tell these 2 great nieces are bigots. 1 is complaining that there are protests of the trial outcome. Bigots by ignorance.

    Bro #2 has 1 son. This Nephew has at one time considered me his fav. No more, I presume because he has my email blocked and has not contacted me in almost a year. His father has not talked to me in 50 years. He has 4 boys. one of them seems strange and seems bigoted. The other 3 I have not talked to since they were very young. Perhaps there is hope.Maybe not. The mother of these 4 boys is one of those religious bigots. Follows all the televangelicals there are. Praises her God all day long.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  25. #75
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I would define it as states without "Stand Your Ground" laws - you can be excused from using deadly force when all other avenues of diffusing the situation have been exhausted, including escaping if possible. For instance, here in Maryland, they have a "duty to retreat" law which says you must make an effort, if possible, to escape the violence.



    Now I would make an exception in a person's home that they shouldn't be expected to retreat, but I especially agree with point number 4 - that you can't use more force that the situation demanded. In the Trayvon Martin case, even is Trayvon Martin was punching George Zimmerman (the evidence clearly indicated that it was this life threatening beating that Zimmerman claimed), then shooting him would have been excessive force, rather than kicking him or punching him back. Excessive force is demonized when police do it, but seems to be hailed as a victory for freedom when an armed citizen uses it, which is a double standard I see a lot with this case.
    I have a problem with Duty to Retreat, in principle it sounds fine but so does Stand your Ground, the devil as they say is in the details. In a sense they are flip sides of a coin; on one side you have the innocent going to jail just because a Monday morning quarterback of a prosecutor finds a away out of a situation that they didn't see in the heat of the moment. On the other paw, you have criminals abusing a right to avoid justice. It is a principle in American justice that when it comes down to a choice between the innocent being punished or the guilty going free, we tend to lean towards protecting the innocent. I much prefer the Reasonable Person standard, if you put the majority of American's in the defendant's shoes would they do the same thing. Self Defense is a Natural Right and if someone is coming at you with the intent to do you serious harm you shouldn't have to stop and spend 30 minutes debating your options before acting.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  26. #76

    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I have a problem with Duty to Retreat, in principle it sounds fine but so does Stand your Ground, the devil as they say is in the details. In a sense they are flip sides of a coin; on one side you have the innocent going to jail just because a Monday morning quarterback of a prosecutor finds a away out of a situation that they didn't see in the heat of the moment. On the other paw, you have criminals abusing a right to avoid justice. It is a principle in American justice that when it comes down to a choice between the innocent being punished or the guilty going free, we tend to lean towards protecting the innocent. I much prefer the Reasonable Person standard, if you put the majority of American's in the defendant's shoes would they do the same thing. Self Defense is a Natural Right and if someone is coming at you with the intent to do you serious harm you shouldn't have to stop and spend 30 minutes debating your options before acting.
    I agree. When you are in an emergency, confronted with a burglar, robber, mugger or rapist, you should not be expected to make same careful decision as a prosecutor sitting quitely in the comfort of his office with the benefit of hindsight. In the heat of the moment, victims cannot be expected to accurately judge how much force is just enough to defend, without being excessive.The stand-your-place laws came about because a few prosecutors used bad judgment in prosecuting victims. Retreating from a criminal may sound easy long, after the fact, but whether it will work is often a difficult decision in practice.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 15th, 2013 at 08:29 AM.

  27. #77
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I have a problem with Duty to Retreat, in principle it sounds fine but so does Stand your Ground, the devil as they say is in the details. In a sense they are flip sides of a coin; on one side you have the innocent going to jail just because a Monday morning quarterback of a prosecutor finds a away out of a situation that they didn't see in the heat of the moment. On the other paw, you have criminals abusing a right to avoid justice. It is a principle in American justice that when it comes down to a choice between the innocent being punished or the guilty going free, we tend to lean towards protecting the innocent. I much prefer the Reasonable Person standard, if you put the majority of American's in the defendant's shoes would they do the same thing. Self Defense is a Natural Right and if someone is coming at you with the intent to do you serious harm you shouldn't have to stop and spend 30 minutes debating your options before acting.
    I, on the other hand, have no problem whatsoever on duty to retreat. Of the two, it is the only one which tries to defuse a potential conflict. Stand Your Ground, had made Trayvon Martin's death, a viable option. So i ask you, in your 'principle of American justice', how the innocent was protected here? Trayvon Martin was a 17yr old kid (not to piss on the cheap shot that has been made about the media circulating 12yr old Trayvon pictures, it don't change the fact we KNOW he was still only 17). SYG hasn't protected the innocent, its enabled the provocateur, and allowed him to escape justice in the process.
    Oh, and in response to this bit:- "if someone is coming at you with the intent to do you serious harm you shouldn't have to stop and spend 30 minutes debating your options before acting" - True, but then on the other hand, if you've got time to consider sticking your nose into somebody else's business, its no surprise that you might get a less than welcome response, and in knowing that, trying to justify shooting somebody as self-defence when its your own stupid fault for getting involved in the first place is as flimsy as a piece of pissed-on cardboard. Its like poking a snake with a stick and then killing the snake claiming it was trying to kill you, when all it did was bite in its own defence.

    What SYG has done, is effectively prevent innocent people who are unarmed, from being able to defend THEMSELVES, for fear of being murdered by some asshole like Zimmerman who DOES have a gun, and then zero justice being done about it afterwards. You've reduced conflict resolution to a firing of a gun, with the innocent party being the one left alive at the end of it.

    And before anyone starts harping on as they have done, about SYG not being the issue in this case. IT IS!!! It couldn't be a focus in the case, because its LEGAL. The trial was not the place to debate SYG. It is clear as day that SYG is an offence to humanity. Where is the crime prevention eh? Fuck it, just have a good old fashioned shoot-out, and to make it more interesting (or less), why not only need one party to have a gun? Yeah, that sounds fair.

    The onus on a reasonable person, is to prevent conflict, not encourage it, and certainly not to instigate it like Zimmerman did. He is a murderer. The Florida State Legislature is an accomplice to murder (and not just Trayvon's, there have been others brushed under the carpet as justified homicide for lack of proof when someone shouts self defence,) for passing such an ill-thought piece of legislation, and blood is on the hands of the pro-gun lobby groups that pushed this piece of dumbfuck agenda, and blood is on the hands of all those who support SYG.
    You just wait until one search person finds a loved one dead at the hands of some prick claiming self defence and getting away with it, when they know in their hearts that it was a lie, and they'll cry a different tale then, maybe not even forgiving themselves for being a party to such a stupid ideology as proliferating weapons and expecting peace instead of war.

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    JUB Addict darden's Avatar
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Stand Your Ground laws don't really seem relevant to the case, though... Zimmerman's defense didn't claim protection under them and they had nothing to do with the trial (instead, they claimed self-defense, under which use of deadly force would have been grounds for acquittal in nearly every state)

  29. #79
    mitchymo
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    Stand Your Ground laws don't really seem relevant to the case, though... Zimmerman's defense didn't claim protection under them and they had nothing to do with the trial (instead, they claimed self-defense, under which use of deadly force would have been grounds for acquittal in nearly every state)
    Claiming self defence is bound to be stronger than any associate law that may be deemed to aid that defence. Crucially however, the legality of SYG means that the prosecution had no means to argue that Zimmerman was the provocateur, cos there is nothing wrong with that according to the flaw of SYG. There is no shred of doubt in my mind that Zimmerman was responsible for the WRONGFUL death of another human being. He has been able to hide behind his right to 'not step back', provoke a conflict, and assume that his interference played no part in his own attack, a thought that would make any reasonable person assume that actually, no, Trayvon wasn't trying to kill him, a beating for getting in his face maybe, but not to kill him, lethal force was unjustified. I think in light of this stupid law, the prosecution should have gone for manslaughter from the beginning, and argued that it wasn't reasonable to assume that if you instigate a conflict, that you are the innocent party, far from it.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I would define it as states without "Stand Your Ground" laws - you can be excused from using deadly force when all other avenues of diffusing the situation have been exhausted, including escaping if possible. For instance, here in Maryland, they have a "duty to retreat" law which says you must make an effort, if possible, to escape the violence.



    Now I would make an exception in a person's home that they shouldn't be expected to retreat, but I especially agree with point number 4 - that you can't use more force that the situation demanded. In the Trayvon Martin case, even is Trayvon Martin was punching George Zimmerman (the evidence clearly indicated that it was this life threatening beating that Zimmerman claimed), then shooting him would have been excessive force, rather than kicking him or punching him back. Excessive force is demonized when police do it, but seems to be hailed as a victory for freedom when an armed citizen uses it, which is a double standard I see a lot with this case.
    That "if possible" gives prosecutors lots of room to charge people who were only defending themselves or others from attack -- it's why something like "Stand Your Ground" is needed; the problem with Florida's version is that it's an invitation to murder.

    Inside one's own home, the only one who should be entitled to judge what was necessary is the homeowner (apply that to businesses and vehicles as well).

    But some simple amendments to the Stand Your Ground law would simplify things:

    if you initiated contact in a hostile fashion, you're not covered
    if you left and came back, you're not covered
    if you're engaged in criminal activity at the time, you're not covered

    -- those would do for starters.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    *the number is now forty

  31. #81
    mitchymo
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    T
    But some simple amendments to the Stand Your Ground law would simplify things:

    if you initiated contact in a hostile fashion, you're not covered
    if you left and came back, you're not covered
    if you're engaged in criminal activity at the time, you're not covered

    -- those would do for starters.
    And if those rules were broken, but no evidence can prove...doesn't solve abuse of the law. Its a stupid law, needed only to accompany another stupid law, 'shall issue'.

    An amendment that would work better, would be, you are not permitted to shoot in self defence unless a) physically assaulted without provocation, or b) being charged at by an armed assailant

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    And if those rules were broken, but no evidence can prove...doesn't solve abuse of the law. Its a stupid law, needed only to accompany another stupid law, 'shall issue'.

    An amendment that would work better, would be, you are not permitted to shoot in self defence unless a) physically assaulted without provocation, or b) being charged at by an armed assailant
    By this standard based on the available evidence, the Zimmerman verdict is correct. Not Guilty since the prosecution could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not physically assaulted without provocation.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    By this standard based on the available evidence, the Zimmerman verdict is correct. Not Guilty since the prosecution could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not physically assaulted without provocation.
    The reasonable doubt exists in the events preceding the alleged attack. Zimmerman pursued Trayvon. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to confront Trayvon. The following attack by Trayvon on Zimmerman was 'reasonably' provoked by Zimmerman, because of those two prior facts to the confrontation. Therefore, Zimmerman couldn't claim he was attacked unprovoked in my amendment suggestion.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The reasonable doubt exists in the events preceding the alleged attack. Zimmerman pursued Trayvon. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to confront Trayvon. The following attack by Trayvon on Zimmerman was 'reasonably' provoked by Zimmerman, because of those two prior facts to the confrontation. Therefore, Zimmerman couldn't claim he was attacked unprovoked in my amendment suggestion.
    Those could be factors in a later civil cased against Zimmerman for wrongful death and probably will be. However neither of those things , while likely negligent, are illegal. By the very standard being promoted here Trayvon would have had a duty to retreat, not turn and attack.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    People have to stop with this 17 old "boy" "kid" stuff the news is littered daily with violent acts by 17 yr olds "..he was just a child". Currently a 16 skinny boy is on trial for shooting and killing a cop point blank less than 2 miles from my house. Hardly unique or rare in the weekly violence to my area of Tampa/St. Petersburg. Last week a scrawny guy who just turned 20 waited and ambushed the night clerk in a 7-11 stabbing him 54 times, and stealing a roll of scratch off tickets. In the 2 examples I list one is white and one is black, race makes no difference. A simple archive check of most big city papers will reveal no shortage of violent teenagers. I get the age aspect its another key word used to enhance the drama. If Trayvon was 36 he didn't deserve to meet up with dough boy loser Zimmerman either.
    Making it sound unheard of that just a child of 16 or 18 could be up to some crime, serious evil crime even is pure bullshit. Wake up Alice this ain't wonderland!

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Disgusting verdict for a disgusting racist asshole.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Those could be factors in a later civil cased against Zimmerman for wrongful death and probably will be. However neither of those things , while likely negligent, are illegal. By the very standard being promoted here Trayvon would have had a duty to retreat, not turn and attack.
    I agree with you that Trayvon probably made a foolish mistake in 'defending' himself. If Zimmerman has a right not to back away, then so does Trayvon. But if the onus is to avoid confrontation, then Zimmerman would have been in the wrong for failing to adhere to the police request not to pursue. And if he had of applied a non-confront stance, Trayvon would never have been in the position to make an ill wise decision not to back off himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    People have to stop with this 17 old "boy" "kid" stuff the news is littered daily with violent acts by 17 yr olds "..he was just a child". Currently a 16 skinny boy is on trial for shooting and killing a cop point blank less than 2 miles from my house. Hardly unique or rare in the weekly violence to my area of Tampa/St. Petersburg. Last week a scrawny guy who just turned 20 waited and ambushed the night clerk in a 7-11 stabbing him 54 times, and stealing a roll of scratch off tickets. In the 2 examples I list one is white and one is black, race makes no difference. A simple archive check of most big city papers will reveal no shortage of violent teenagers. I get the age aspect its another key word used to enhance the drama. If Trayvon was 36 he didn't deserve to meet up with dough boy loser Zimmerman either.
    Making it sound unheard of that just a child of 16 or 18 could be up to some crime, serious evil crime even is pure bullshit. Wake up Alice this ain't wonderland!
    Oh please. The 17yr old aspect of this case is not about what people of that age are or aren't capable of, its simply the fact that its a young age. Its more tragic for someone who has yet to really live their life have it taken from them, than a 34yr old who has at least lived a 3rd of a lifetime.
    Besides which, what exactly was it, do you imagine that Zimmerman saw in Trayvon, that made light-bulbs flash?? Was it that he somehow managed to see through the tall black lad walking down the street, in the dark, chatting on his mobile phone and eating twinkies, to see the truth that he was just a thug up to no good? Cos i know damn well, and you do too, that no tall white lad walking down the street, in the dark, chatting on their mobile and eating twinkies would be considered a bad egg in any way. Its not a crime to engage in what Trayvon was doing that night, so he must have been racially profiled. This has nothing to do with what a 17yr old can and can't do. Its about the injustice and tragedy of an innocent kid losing their life to a tosspot.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    I'm confused why the Zimmerman supporters on here are ignoring the fact that Zimmerman pursued and instigated this conflict that resulted in the shooting death of a teenage Trayvon Martin who was only returning home. They then leave vague, ambiguous accusations that somehow Trayvon was responsible for his own death from Zimmerman's gun because he was 6'2", 175lbs, and that black-on-black violence is very common.

    What they ignore is that Trayvon was not seeking conflict, he was going home to the neighborhood he belonged to. What they ignore is that Trayvon was only armed with iced tea and a bag of Skittles while Zimmerman had the gun. What they ignore is that Zimmerman instigated the conflict with Trayvon whether it was verbal or physical force that resulted in a fight on a ground.

    What they ignore is that this death (and taxpayer money spent, Jack) could have easily been prevented if George Zimmerman stayed in his car and listened to the dispatcher to not follow Trayvon. George Zimmerman became liable in that decision. George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. The court may not be able to prove 2nd degree murder, but George Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter.
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I agree with you that Trayvon probably made a foolish mistake in 'defending' himself. If Zimmerman has a right not to back away, then so does Trayvon. But if the onus is to avoid confrontation, then Zimmerman would have been in the wrong for failing to adhere to the police request not to pursue. And if he had of applied a non-confront stance, Trayvon would never have been in the position to make an ill wise decision not to back off himself.
    According to Zimmerman's account, and unfortunately the timeline seems to support it, he DID adhere to the operator's request and had broken contact with Martin. Which makes it even more problematic. Martin could simply have avoided the encounter by continuing to keep moving towards his house. He would have to had doubled back to encounter Zimmerman. The encounter took place at a T intersection of the sidewalks, Trayvon's house was to the right. Zimmerman says that he went straight to the next street when the operator told him not to follow, he answered OK and had turned back to return to his car when Martin confronted him at the T intersection.

    You have to remember under the principle of innocent until proven guilty, Zimmerman'd defense does not have to prove that his account is accurate, the prosecution HAS to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is false. Unfortunately, the prevailing evidence tended to support Zimmerman's story which left reasonable doubt.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I'm confused why the Zimmerman supporters on here are ignoring the fact that Zimmerman pursued and instigated this conflict that resulted in the shooting death of a teenage Trayvon Martin who was only returning home. They then leave vague, ambiguous accusations that somehow Trayvon was responsible for his own death from Zimmerman's gun because he was 6'2", 175lbs, and that black-on-black violence is very common.

    What they ignore is that Trayvon was not seeking conflict, he was going home to the neighborhood he belonged to. What they ignore is that Trayvon was only armed with iced tea and a bag of Skittles while Zimmerman had the gun. What they ignore is that Zimmerman instigated the conflict with Trayvon whether it was verbal or physical force that resulted in a fight on a ground.

    What they ignore is that this death (and taxpayer money spent, Jack) could have easily been prevented if George Zimmerman stayed in his car and listened to the dispatcher to not follow Trayvon. George Zimmerman became liable in that decision. George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. The court may not be able to prove 2nd degree murder, but George Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter.
    I'm not a Zimmerman supporter. This is not a political debate. It wasn't a racial thing either - until some people made it a racial thing.

    What happened shouldn't have happened. It's sad. I wish Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun. It's possible that Zimmerman might be the one dead today if he would have been gunless because of having his head split open on hard concrete by Martin -- would we be talking about this today -- no.

    Zimmerman had a right to defend himself based on what eye witnesses said and heard. Eyewitnesses actually saw Martin beat Zimmerman.

    Zimmerman had a trial by jury -- it's what we do in the USA. If we decide that's wrong and go for political juries we've lost our republic.

    One more comment: I wish people like Rev. Al Sharpton would focus on good things rather than being an instigator in racial issues. If he would use his position to focus on high school graduation for black students think of what that would mean. 50% high school graduation rate for young blacks is not OK. Without a high school diploma what future do they have?

    I suppose supporting an issue would not put money in Sharpton's pocket or would fit with his groups motto: No Justice, No Peace
    Last edited by Jack Springer; July 15th, 2013 at 02:48 PM.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    You have to remember under the principle of innocent until proven guilty, Zimmerman'd defense does not have to prove that his account is accurate, the prosecution HAS to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is false. Unfortunately, the prevailing evidence tended to support Zimmerman's story which left reasonable doubt.
    Why should Trayvon not be considered innocent until proven guilty? We have a dead, unarmed teenager who was being pursued by a stranger he didn't know. This isn't a case of some guy walking down the sidewalk behind someone else. This is a case of someone scoping out Trayvon from his car then stopping to get out and try to confront him. If there had been a series of break-ins in the neighborhood, why is it reasonable to assume Trayvon might not have been concerned about some car following him and then the driver getting out?

    And of course the prosecution couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasn't self defense because the other party (and only other witness) is dead. To be excused from a crime because only one of the two people involved can give their side of the story because the other is dead is ludicrous and further supports the argument that Florida's SYG law is far too ambiguous and basically allows people to set up a situation in which they can kill someone and get away with it.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    To be excused from a crime because only one of the two people involved can give their side of the story because the other is dead is ludicrous and further supports the argument that Florida's SYG law is far too ambiguous and basically allows people to set up a situation in which they can kill someone and get away with it.
    How many times must people tell you that the SYG law had absolutely nothing to do with this case? Read the posts that explain it to you. You seem to be obsessed with this one insignificant and totally irrelevant item.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    How many times must people tell you that the SYG law had absolutely nothing to do with this case? Read the posts that explain it to you. You seem to be obsessed with this one insignificant and totally irrelevant item.
    Self defense and SYG are one in the same. SYG merely allows dealy force when exercising self-defense as a first option instead of a last option.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I'm confused why the Zimmerman supporters on here are ignoring the fact that Zimmerman pursued and instigated this conflict that resulted in the shooting death of a teenage Trayvon Martin who was only returning home. They then leave vague, ambiguous accusations that somehow Trayvon was responsible for his own death from Zimmerman's gun because he was 6'2", 175lbs, and that black-on-black violence is very common.

    What they ignore is that Trayvon was not seeking conflict, he was going home to the neighborhood he belonged to. What they ignore is that Trayvon was only armed with iced tea and a bag of Skittles while Zimmerman had the gun. What they ignore is that Zimmerman instigated the conflict with Trayvon whether it was verbal or physical force that resulted in a fight on a ground.

    What they ignore is that this death (and taxpayer money spent, Jack) could have easily been prevented if George Zimmerman stayed in his car and listened to the dispatcher to not follow Trayvon. George Zimmerman became liable in that decision. George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. The court may not be able to prove 2nd degree murder, but George Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter.
    Actually a jury of his peers found that the charge of manslaughter was not proven. I was on the other side of this before that but, I refuse to believe all six women hate black people and wanna see Zimmerman free. So therefore it was a thorough process and the facts did not bear out that Trayvon was murdered. They decided Zimmerman acted in self defense.
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Why should Trayvon not be considered innocent until proven guilty? We have a dead, unarmed teenager who was being pursued by a stranger he didn't know. This isn't a case of some guy walking down the sidewalk behind someone else. This is a case of someone scoping out Trayvon from his car then stopping to get out and try to confront him. If there had been a series of break-ins in the neighborhood, why is it reasonable to assume Trayvon might not have been concerned about some car following him and then the driver getting out?

    And of course the prosecution couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasn't self defense because the other party (and only other witness) is dead. To be excused from a crime because only one of the two people involved can give their side of the story because the other is dead is ludicrous and further supports the argument that Florida's SYG law is far too ambiguous and basically allows people to set up a situation in which they can kill someone and get away with it.
    Of course he is but he was not the one on trail. There were other witnesses and there was the physical and forensic evidence. Unfortunately, the majority of it supported Zimmerman's case. This is not just a case of we take Zimmerman at his word. The state had to measure that word against the evidence and try to convince the jury of the charge. They simply could not do that and part of the reason was that they went for a far more serious charge than the available evidence supported likely due to political pressure. Of course, if we should just convict and condemn people based on what the popular opinion is of their guilt instead of the evidence, there is a perfect model for it, its call the Salem Witch Trials.
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Actually a jury of his peers found that the charge of manslaughter was not proven. I was on the other side of this before that but, I refuse to believe all six women hate black people and wanna see Zimmerman free. So therefore it was a thorough process and the facts did not bear out that Trayvon was murdered. They decided Zimmerman acted in self defense.
    I never understood why so many people blame the jury. Blame the shitty-ass prosecutors who failed to deliver a guilty sentence. The jury's job is to disseminate the facts of the case. If the prosecutors can't present enough information, the defense will win.

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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Claiming self defence is bound to be stronger than any associate law that may be deemed to aid that defence. Crucially however, the legality of SYG means that the prosecution had no means to argue that Zimmerman was the provocateur, cos there is nothing wrong with that according to the flaw of SYG. There is no shred of doubt in my mind that Zimmerman was responsible for the WRONGFUL death of another human being. He has been able to hide behind his right to 'not step back', provoke a conflict, and assume that his interference played no part in his own attack, a thought that would make any reasonable person assume that actually, no, Trayvon wasn't trying to kill him, a beating for getting in his face maybe, but not to kill him, lethal force was unjustified. I think in light of this stupid law, the prosecution should have gone for manslaughter from the beginning, and argued that it wasn't reasonable to assume that if you instigate a conflict, that you are the innocent party, far from it.
    Not so. If you review the cases where SYG has been addressed in Florida, judges have in fact denied its applicability when the person claiming it was obviously the aggressor. The problem isn't with the concept, or even with such a law, the problem is that while the law was officially authored by an elected representative of the people, it came from professional lobbyist and former NRA president Marion Hammer. Her stint as the organization's chief executive showed that she understands nothing of nuance and little if anything of unintended consequences. With her as the driving force, every attempt to make the law clear in order to avoid the very problems it has suffered from was turned aside. The result was a law that even most NRA members regard as sloppy and dangerous.

    For the most part, the law has worked as intended, letting people whose lives were at risk choose to protect themselves instead of having to try to run. But some three out of ten cases have been the off-the-wall disaster Marion Hammer refused to help prevent.

    I don't know if it would hold up, but were I a Florida representative I'd be proposing a law that would make lobbyists involved in writing any law liable for harm to people from that law being badly written. If I had a time machine and three wishes, I'd go back and put that law into place, then return and watch Marion Hammer be sued for the stupid results of every one of that thirty percent of cases where the law was used to protect criminal action.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #98
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Why should Trayvon not be considered innocent until proven guilty?
    He should have, but our system of law doesn't allow that to be addressed unless a prosecutor decides to charge Trayvon with something.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    We have a dead, unarmed teenager who was being pursued by a stranger he didn't know. This isn't a case of some guy walking down the sidewalk behind someone else. This is a case of someone scoping out Trayvon from his car then stopping to get out and try to confront him. If there had been a series of break-ins in the neighborhood, why is it reasonable to assume Trayvon might not have been concerned about some car following him and then the driver getting out?

    And of course the prosecution couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasn't self defense because the other party (and only other witness) is dead. To be excused from a crime because only one of the two people involved can give their side of the story because the other is dead is ludicrous and further supports the argument that Florida's SYG law is far too ambiguous and basically allows people to set up a situation in which they can kill someone and get away with it.
    Maybe someone creative could figure out a way to encounter Marion Hammer, the demonness behind the law, on a Florida street and "stand his ground" against her.....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  49. #99
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    MSNBC reported this morning that the Judge issued an anonymity order for the Jurors. Their names will not be released or anything. They will have ZERO contact with the Media. So we may NEVER know their thoughts..
    I'm confused, I saw somewhere else (either a post in here, or something on the news) that mentioned one of the jurors is already talking to a publisher?? I hope not.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  50. #100
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    Re: Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I'm confused, I saw somewhere else (either a post in here, or something on the news) that mentioned one of the jurors is already talking to a publisher?? I hope not.
    There was a mention on the morning news here about a juror talking about the racism angle.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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