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    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    From time to time I’ve noticed references to the concept of putting Americans first with regard to allocation of the nation’s scarce resources in a presentation that includes limiting the opportunities for citizenship. This viewpoint bears testimony to the immigration policies of the United States, while purporting to advance the interests of Americans – most notably those who are disadvantaged or lack skills that might otherwise enable them to better compete in the current job market and thereby overcome economic and/or social hardship.

    Though elements of this approach have become somewhat adopted or otherwise incorporated into various contemporary discussions, my research suggests that the original source of the concept is Steve Sailer, author of the book, America's Half-Blood Prince.

    I introduce this concept as a “challenge for discussion” by first linking (below) to a 2006 article from The American Conservative.

    Citizenism is patriotism understood not as shouting that America is the best but as wanting the best for Americans.
    The author appears to hold particular disdain for multiculturalism and political correctness. He references the Preamble to the US Constitution to suggest that lawmakers and elected officials have a fiduciary responsibility to protect current citizens and their descendants from any dilution of “the scarcity value of their right to live in America.”

    Though the author himself can be seen as controversial, inconsistent, and even racist – the primary intent of this thread is to examine the relative legitimacy of his argument / moral theory / concept. And that determination is germane because its elements have found their way into the public discourse relative to US immigration policy.

    The topic of this thread is open to a wide variation of interpretation or conceptual illustration; however, interpersonal commentary or excessive deviations from the presented ideas are not desired. A methodical approach is most likely to provide a clear result.





    As a convenience of reference, I’ve added links below to polls cited within the article:

    Poll: U.S. Border Control Lacking (CBS News; [results from] October 2005)

    Worldviews 2002 – American Public Opinion & Foreign Policy (Chicago Council on Foreign Relations; 2002)

    Attitudes toward Immigrants and Immigration Policy: Surveys among Latinos in the U.S. and in Mexico (Pew Research Hispanic Center; August 2005)

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    If these same principles had been applied in the first place...the only Americans today would have been the native Indian tribes.

    The notion that anyone from a country that is composed of 99.9% immigrants who have come here in the last 250 years can even present some of these arguments with a straight face is risible.

    To think that any country is somehow immune from the human tide is a clear demonstration of a lack of education in human history. If the notions weren't based on a white racist perspective they would be quaint. But since they are, it all just becomes more ugly white noise.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    I can join in on citizenism. The United States cannot full fill all employment demands with its current population. We must immigrate to grow and expand economically. We do not have a progressive birth rate and so therefore must rely upon immigration. Equally with the inept schools system we have; we cannot count on our schools developing all of the require talent.

    So citizenism equating to doing what is good for America means finding an adequate and worthwhile method to introduce immigrants to our population. Assuredly the current system is broken beyond repair. I like the Canadian model to be quite honest. Having a skill AND a company that wants you before coming to the country. I also think there is an unfair advantage given to immigrants in the realm of small business. The US is still the easiest place on planet earth to start a business but immigrant businesses get a truckload of government subsidies. That should change. It should be an equal lottery of subsidized business interest.

    Straying a bit I know, but we desperately need a working immigration system. Equally, it is impossible to actually remove the 11 million here already. SO a path must be agreed upon and penalties imposed. I also agree we must have a tighter border. Hell if anything it creates low skill jobs to be filled by the 60% low education american.
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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Compared to other countries, including third world nations, the current US immigration policy is incredibly lax.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by ElmosToe View Post
    Compared to other countries, including third world nations, the current US immigration policy is incredibly lax.
    It is... amazingly so.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Countries like the US, Canada, Australia, are all built on immigration. Built- meaning it is a key part of the economy.

    And typically I defend open borders as a way to support economic productivity: let people go where the demand for their skills is. Restraining that great economic current just makes everyone poorer.

    But I have to say I'd be much more comfortable with that approach if the world had a stable population. At the moment I believe it is growing unsustainably, and emigration from some countries may mask the extent of the problem and provide a relief valve that allows them to ignore their demographic realities. I remember when Egypt was struggling with just 40 million people. They have double that now, with nothing to show for it but a greater number of people experiencing depravation. India continues to needlessly swell its population, though there is new hope of demographic change and of the advent of the nuclear family.

    So that is a concern.

    And also at some point there has to be a law of diminishing returns. Would life in the US really be better if it had as many people as China or India? I picture Canada with a billion people and I think it would be pointless.

    However it is calculated, I think every country needs to figure out a population target. Whether it gets there by birthrate or immigration probably doesn't matter so much, but it needs to stop somewhere.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    From time to time I’ve noticed references to the concept of putting Americans first with regard to allocation of the nation’s scarce resources in a presentation that includes limiting the opportunities for citizenship. This viewpoint bears testimony to the immigration policies of the United States, while purporting to advance the interests of Americans – most notably those who are disadvantaged or lack skills that might otherwise enable them to better compete in the current job market and thereby overcome economic and/or social hardship.

    Though elements of this approach have become somewhat adopted or otherwise incorporated into various contemporary discussions, my research suggests that the original source of the concept is Steve Sailer, author of the book, America's Half-Blood Prince.

    I introduce this concept as a “challenge for discussion” by first linking (below) to a 2006 article from The American Conservative.



    The author appears to hold particular disdain for multiculturalism and political correctness. He references the Preamble to the US Constitution to suggest that lawmakers and elected officials have a fiduciary responsibility to protect current citizens and their descendants from any dilution of “the scarcity value of their right to live in America.”

    Though the author himself can be seen as controversial, inconsistent, and even racist – the primary intent of this thread is to examine the relative legitimacy of his argument / moral theory / concept. And that determination is germane because its elements have found their way into the public discourse relative to US immigration policy.

    The topic of this thread is open to a wide variation of interpretation or conceptual illustration; however, interpersonal commentary or excessive deviations from the presented ideas are not desired. A methodical approach is most likely to provide a clear result.


    Given that he begins be asserting that the facts are on his side and then introduces assertions without backing them up -- some easily disproved, such as the claim that illegals provide Democratic votes -- he's not worth listening to, in general.

    More specifically, he reminds me of the EPA: he holds to a good principle, but his application in the details is somewhat lacking. His biggest failure is failing to recognize that the reason that the US currently has a job shortage has little to do with immigration... except insofar as the fact that failing to allow immigration by a certain portion of foreign students is costing the country numerous jobs for citizens.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Countries like the US, Canada, Australia, are all built on immigration. Built- meaning it is a key part of the economy.

    And typically I defend open borders as a way to support economic productivity: let people go where the demand for their skills is. Restraining that great economic current just makes everyone poorer.

    But I have to say I'd be much more comfortable with that approach if the world had a stable population. At the moment I believe it is growing unsustainably, and emigration from some countries may mask the extent of the problem and provide a relief valve that allows them to ignore their demographic realities. I remember when Egypt was struggling with just 40 million people. They have double that now, with nothing to show for it but a greater number of people experiencing depravation. India continues to needlessly swell its population, though there is new hope of demographic change and of the advent of the nuclear family.

    So that is a concern.

    And also at some point there has to be a law of diminishing returns. Would life in the US really be better if it had as many people as China or India? I picture Canada with a billion people and I think it would be pointless.

    However it is calculated, I think every country needs to figure out a population target. Whether it gets there by birthrate or immigration probably doesn't matter so much, but it needs to stop somewhere.
    I can't think of any country that needs more people. The planet had more than enough when we hit 4 billion -- three was plenty.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    I think every top ten country, population-wise, as well as every country that's become 'crowded' should adopt stricter laws regarding reproduction. The one-child idea has merits, but two-child would be a better policy. I don't think any parents should really have more than 4 kids...usually it causes more problems than it fixes.

    Another idea, one that I could extend on, is to make the parent(s) get reproduction licenses. Same as marriage licenses, works once in a restricted amount of time. The people that would get the license would have to prove financial stability, sound mental health, lack of genetic defects (who wants a kid with Huntington's anyway?) etc. It also helps diminish the problem of impoverished children. You could also set it up to if the mother is already pregnant and doesn't have the license (and wouldn't have been able to get it under normal circumstances), the child automatically gets set up for adoption (or the mother could choose an abortion if it's early enough). It would be integrated into the current adoption system. There are numerous benefits to that approach. If done right, I would support legislation making it so.

    Some would call it overtly controlling, and that would be by design. Just because people CAN reproduce doesn't mean that they SHOULD.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The United States cannot [fulfill] all employment demands with its current population. We must [allow immigration, in order] to grow and expand economically. We do not have a progressive birth rate and so therefore must rely upon immigration.
    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Countries like the US, Canada, Australia, are all built on immigration. Built- meaning it is a key part of the economy.
    I accept the static nature of the fertility rate in the US, but why (in contemporary America) is it necessary to the nation’s economic success for the population to continually increase?

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    I don't know that it is necessary. Or even if it were necessary that it is feasible. I just think the economy is currently set up to thrive only when more people are added to it every year. I think we need to back away from that model and figure out how to be more prosperous each year with the same number of people. (I'd apply that globally, not just to the US.)

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I can't think of any country that needs more people. The planet had more than enough when we hit 4 billion -- three was plenty.
    Perhaps Mali, Mongolia, and Fiji could use more people. But there's no guarantee those countries would be any better off with more people (and likewise with most other places in the world).

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    Another idea, one that I could extend on, is to make the parent(s) get reproduction licenses.

    the child automatically gets set up for adoption (or the mother could choose an abortion if it's early enough). It would be integrated into the current adoption system. There are numerous benefits to that approach. If done right, I would support legislation making it so.
    Like THAT would actually make it through the current state of politics in the USA - it would be great, but it's DOA.
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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    India continues to needlessly swell its population, though there is new hope of demographic change and of the advent of the nuclear family.
    I’m not sure I understand this remark. The trend in India toward households that consist of a nuclear family results in a greater number of households and heads of household that are younger and less reliant/subordinate to older family members. Does that represent a positive outcome?

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I don't know that it is necessary. Or even if it were necessary that it is feasible. I just think the economy is currently set up to thrive only when more people are added to it every year. I think we need to back away from that model and figure out how to be more prosperous each year with the same number of people. (I'd apply that globally, not just to the US.)
    I've been saying that for twenty years.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I’m not sure I understand this remark. The trend in India toward households that consist of a nuclear family results in a greater number of households and heads of household that are younger and less reliant/subordinate to older family members. Does that represent a positive outcome?
    The traditional Indian model was to procreate as much as possible to have a large family to provide for you in old age. This is falling away as more Indians establish smaller more independent families. The main positives are population going down (or at least inflating less ridiculously) enabling greater prosperity for those people. India doesn't need another 500 million peasants ballooning out to support the oldest survivors of a life of hard-toiling desperation. It needs hundreds of millions fewer, and living at a greater standard of living. The bad trend has started to ease. And without the one-child policy enforced in China!

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    • Its cheaper to subsidize immigrant businesses because Americans are too greedy to pay for any education, the immigrants country did.
    • Immigrants are used to pay taxes and subsidize the establishment, they die or don't quality for government programs, so the programs become more sustainable
    • I disagree with what JayHawk says because its a societal cop-out to say that we must immigrate to sustain growth
    • Rareboy shouldn't make up statistics on the spot, there are at least 3.5 million pacific and native Americans living in the USA which equals about 1% not .1% , and about 50 million that traveled less distance than white Americans to live here.


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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I accept the static nature of the fertility rate in the US, but why (in contemporary America) is it necessary to the nation’s economic success for the population to continually increase?
    you already know the answer to this question, everyone who thinks about does, its just another form of slavery.

    people say lations have more children, theyre called anchor babies. no revelations there.
    Last edited by evanrick; July 5th, 2013 at 11:03 PM.


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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    I have to say his notion of 'Americans First' is a most dubious moral principle: an admixture and reworking of American 'exceptionalism' (we're unique in some way) and nationalism (us and them).

    It's not rocket science to have an effective well planned immigration system that is relatively robust, transparent and fair. It is indeed a pressing requirement for the US. It can't be done in a piecemeal fashion and must include a path to citizenship for those who have resided in the country for some defined period of time, and without criminalisation.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    It should be obvious that the primary obligation of a government--any government, not just the US--is to protect and service its own citizens first, and do nothing to hurt them.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It should be obvious that the primary obligation of a government--any government, not just the US--is to protect and service its own citizens first, and do nothing to hurt them.
    The next obvious thing is that no government - not even the US - can succeed in doing that for its people unless it is prepared to work in cooperation with other governments for the mutual benefit of each of their citizens, and not adopt a "beggar thy neighbour" mentality. Hmm.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It should be obvious that the primary obligation of a government--any government, not just the US--is to protect and service its own citizens first, and do nothing to hurt them.
    I share the view that government should serve the interests of its citizens.

    However, you should know your government was subject to a corporate takeover in the 1970's. Extensive asset stripping ensued.
    It was a shrewd investment by the 1%.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Some countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand that I know of, place logical constraints on immigrants. Canada's new points system is heavily weighted to age and language proficiency in the context of caps on immigration. To immigrate to Australia, a family has to have an average age of thirty. Grams can come at 60, but their has to be a new born to off set the family average age. 55 is the limit for immigration to New Zealand, as 95% of the population is on the public health scheme. In the US, we have focused on the Mexican immigrants. Most of these are young people who want to work, and will take jobs Americans won't. Other groups from Eastern Europe/Russia have come beyond retirement age and due to a lifetime of poor healthcare and bad habit, end up sucking inordinate amounts of resources from our healthcare/welfare system without ever contributing. I worked in healthcare administration for some years, and have seen families fly terminally ill members in as tourists, and drop them at the ER. They are "Manged", or processed for welfare benefits and cared for, for the remainder of their lives. Some even come from wealthy families who write checks for the first couple of months until the relatives benefits are in place to take over. We cannot eliminate immigration, but we should focus on accepting young, healthy and willing to work and contribute to society and the economy. If we don't immigration becomes an intolerable burden rather than an infusion of fresh talent and ability.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    The liberals/Democrats have lost sight of the principle that the government should care for their own people first. The problem is that immigrants traditionally vote Democrat. Therefore, with enough immigrants, the Democrats can subjugate the rest of us permanently to their will.
    Therefore, immigration trumps all else.
    Immigration is more important than helping our own unemployed
    ;more important than helping our own poor including minorities,
    more important than the environment
    more important than health care
    more important than solving the crime problem.
    more important than education.

    And of course, they have devised an ideology designed to foreclose discussion. It is a Democrat dogma of politically correctness that anyone negative on immigration is racist, nativist, xenophobic, white supremest. Never mind that our existing racial minorities are hurt most of all by immigration.
    And they have marshalled a host of irrelevant arguments to rationalize their partisan policy:
    We are told that are a nation of immigrants. So what if times have changed and it is now harmful. The US used to have slavery and Indian wars, would that be good today? And remember in those golden days of (mostly white European) immigration, the black people were held down by discrimination in favor of the immigrants. And it continues today. Why is that glorious past binding on us today.
    Americans, we are told, don't want immigrant jobs like driving taxis and trucks, construction work, cleaning hotel rooms, therefore we should just push America's poor and unemployed aside and forget about them (or dream that some day in the sweet bye and bye, we will educate all those Americans pushed aside to be highly paid white collar workers, but first, continue the immigration full bore.)
    And, the ever popular claim that when we pay minimum wage to immigrants and they spend it, the economy has expanded, forgetting how much it costs the taxpayer to provide them services. More importantly forgetting that we can achieve better economic growth by recruiting our own poor and unemployed, allowing them to rise up the economic ladder. Remember also that with foreign competition, our economy is not going to expand as it has, and perhaps not at all, How is ever expanding population consistent with environmentalism?
    How about a compromise; call a moratorium on immigrant to give our poor and unemployed a chance.
    .
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 6th, 2013 at 11:41 AM.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I accept the static nature of the fertility rate in the US, but why (in contemporary America) is it necessary to the nation’s economic success for the population to continually increase?
    Because markets have to grow somehow and a corporation is not deemed profitable unless it is increasing profit shares. One of the main methods is a growing market.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I don't know that it is necessary. Or even if it were necessary that it is feasible. I just think the economy is currently set up to thrive only when more people are added to it every year. I think we need to back away from that model and figure out how to be more prosperous each year with the same number of people. (I'd apply that globally, not just to the US.)
    I agree. We need a new model because perpetual growth is impossible.
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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Our own poor and unemployed provide the potential for a great deal of economic growth, as well as employed people who are not improving their situation. We still have 7.5% unemployment and only 47% of adults have full time jobs.
    How do individuals benefit from economic growth of the country as a whole?

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    From a micro-economic standpoint, it can be argued that many unskilled foreign workers who immigrate to the US view the relatively poor wages, job insecurity, and unpleasant working conditions they can expect to find as preferable to the poverty and unemployment situation in their home country. Thus, the economic motivation for their immigration functions to perpetuate a secondary labor market in the US and thereby enables employers to drive down wages and working conditions even more.

    Viewed from the other side of the equation, this situation correlates with the Marxist view that rich capitalists exploit immigrants as a means to reduce labor costs. Ergo, a secondary labor market can have the effect of diluting the influence of native workers who seek higher wages or better working conditions.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I agree. We need a new model because perpetual growth is impossible.
    Perpetual population growth is impossible, but I hope we're not throwing in the towel on growth of prosperity.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The US is still the easiest place on planet earth to start a business but immigrant businesses get a truckload of government subsidies. That should change. It should be an equal lottery of subsidized business interest.

    Perhaps you are confusing “immigrant” with “minority.”

    The US Department of Commerce operates the Minority Business Development Agency, which is the only federal agency created specifically to foster the establishment and growth of minority-owned businesses in America. The goal is to achieve parity of opportunity for minorities that have been marginalized by the US political economy and faced challenges in starting and growing business enterprises.




    For purposes of determining eligibility to receive MBDA services, an MBE is defined as a business concern that is owned or controlled by the following persons or groups of persons that are also U.S. citizens or resident aliens admitted for lawful admission to the United States:

    • African Americans
    • Hispanics
    • Asian and Pacific Islander Americans
    • Native Americans (including Alaska Natives, Alaska Native Corporations and Tribal entities)
    • Asian Indians
    • Hasidic Jews


    Petition Pending: Arab Americans

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    What possible justification could there be for giving subsidies to immigrants rather than existing citizens. They obviously have not been victims of anything here. Giving benefits to them weakens programs for the benefit of existing minorities. A black person would have to compete with new arrivals. The governments duty is to help citizens first, rather than hurting them.
    Just more Democrat pandering to the immigrant vote, at the expense of Americans.

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    Maybe because no culture survives without stimulating outside input?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    What possible justification could there be for giving subsidies to immigrants rather than existing citizens[?] They obviously have not been victims of anything here. Giving benefits to them weakens programs for the benefit of existing minorities.
    Immigrants who are US citizens or resident aliens ARE a part of “existing minorities.”

    The goal is equal opportunity. The Minority Business Development Agency operates under a relatively modest budget and serves primarily to offer guidance and advice. That can involve helping minorities locate sources of capital, but most businesses started by recent immigrants are better capitalized than the average small business and utilize family savings as an integral part of their financing. They are slightly less likely to employ additional persons, but their efforts provide an obvious contribution toward US employment and productivity.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Perhaps you are confusing “immigrant” with “minority.”

    The US Department of Commerce operates the Minority Business Development Agency, which is the only federal agency created specifically to foster the establishment and growth of minority-owned businesses in America. The goal is to achieve parity of opportunity for minorities that have been marginalized by the US political economy and faced challenges in starting and growing business enterprises.




    For purposes of determining eligibility to receive MBDA services, an MBE is defined as a business concern that is owned or controlled by the following persons or groups of persons that are also U.S. citizens or resident aliens admitted for lawful admission to the United States:

    • African Americans
    • Hispanics
    • Asian and Pacific Islander Americans
    • Native Americans (including Alaska Natives, Alaska Native Corporations and Tribal entities)
    • Asian Indians
    • Hasidic Jews


    Petition Pending: Arab Americans
    Perhaps, many of the immigrants fit a minority category?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Maybe because no culture survives without stimulating outside input?
    Whose fault is that? Whose responsibility is it if people forget their own language and culture?
    .

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Whose fault is that? Whose responsibility is it if people forget their own language and culture?
    It has nothing to do with peopls losing their 'culture' it has to do with a country starving for a workforce willing to work.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Perhaps, many of the immigrants fit a minority category?
    Perhaps, that is a reasonable rebuttal.


    Food for thought:

    The US population under age 18 is projected to become majority-minority in the next 5 or 6 years. That means all people in that age group except for those that are non-Hispanic, single-race white will outnumber those who are non-Hispanic, single-race white.

    International Migration is Projected to Become Primary Driver of U.S. Population Growth for First Time in Nearly Two Centuries (US Census Bureau)


    What is the racial composition of the immigrant population?

    
Of the foreign born in the United States in 2011, 48 percent reported their race as white alone, 8 percent as black, 25 percent as Asian alone, and 16 percent as some other race; more than 2 percent reported having two or more races.

    How many immigrants in the United States are of Hispanic origin?

    
In 2011, 47 percent of the 40.4 million immigrants (18.8 million) reported having Hispanic or Latino origins.

    How many Hispanics are immigrants?

    The majority of Hispanics in the United States are native-born US citizens. Of the 52 million people in 2011 who identified themselves as Hispanic or Latino, 36 percent (18.8 million) were immigrants.


    Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigrants and Immigration in the United States (Migration Information Source)

    Immigration Statistics (US Department of Homeland Security)

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Jay, I think you and I have interpreted #32 in two different ways
    .

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Yeah, I think since this is a discussion revolving around immigration and its effect on America first, I dont think your idea of lost culture is germane or the intent of Rolyo.

    he is saying that our country cannot survives without an influx of fresh workers and talent from elsewhere.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Whose fault is that? Whose responsibility is it if people forget their own language and culture?
    Again, you are saying is, in effect, forget about the millions of poor and unemployed Americans. Leave them forever at the bottom. Meanwhile, import different people willing to work for a generation, until they too discover that they can live on welfare.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    First, we are told that immigrants do not compete because they only take jobs that Americans do not want, picking strawberries, driving taxis, construction, janitorial work etc. That is why we need them.
    But the instant they cross the border, they are downtrodden minorities, entitled to special benefits and subsidies, to allow them to compete with Americans, to "level the playing field". The purpose of the level playing field is to allow them to compete more successfully against Americans, i.e., to take opportunities from them, including our own minorities.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Would we be having this discussion were the majority of migrants currently entering the United States originating from Northern Europe?

    That Hispanics would appear to be the subject matter/the contentious stream of illegals might suggest that racist profiling has an influence.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    First, we are told that immigrants do not compete because they only take jobs that Americans do not want, picking strawberries, driving taxis, construction, janitorial work etc. That is why we need them.
    But the instant they cross the border, they are downtrodden minorities, entitled to special benefits and subsidies, to allow them to compete with Americans, to "level the playing field". The purpose of the level playing field is to allow them to compete more successfully against Americans, i.e., to take opportunities from them, including our own minorities.

    What would you suggest as a remedy to stop Hispanics flooding the United States?

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    We here in Greece we have been facing a steady stream of refugees flooding into Greece from Asian and African countries most heading north to more prosperous countries yet, in a country of ten million Greeks we also host some one million temporary residents legal and illegal. There is no easy answer to blocking the entry of people determined to enter Greece. With further disturbances in Egypt we are expecting a flood of Egyptians to add to the Egyptians,Tunisians and others who flee the various wars and disputes in Africa...this apart from the hundreds of thousands of Afghans, Iranians, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis and Palestinians along with thousands of East Europeans.

    We have a problem in Greece to employ, feed and shelter our own....but the hordes keep arriving, starving, sick and penniless.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    We here in Greece we have been facing a steady stream of refugees flooding into Greece from Asian and African countries most heading north to more prosperous countries yet, in a country of ten million Greeks we also host some one million temporary residents legal and illegal. There is no easy answer to blocking the entry of people determined to enter Greece. With further disturbances in Egypt we are expecting a flood of Egyptians to add to the Egyptians,Tunisians and others who flee the various wars and disputes in Africa...this apart from the hundreds of thousands of Afghans, Iranians, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis and Palestinians along with thousands of East Europeans.

    We have a problem in Greece to employ, feed and shelter our own....but the hordes keep arriving, starving, sick and penniless.
    Sounds like you are racially profiling, HUH? We also have a problem employing, feeding and sheltering our own, but the hordes keep coming. Actually, LEGAL immigration is as big a problem as illegal, (a million a year) and they are not predominately Hispanic. They are from all over. But they compete with Americans for jobs, opportunities and service at the expense of the taxpayers, and then vote with the Democrats to hurt Americans.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Opinterph, two points that relate to your theme and contextualise it I think:

    First, the other side of the equation is what happens in the source country of the immigrant. Canada attracted significant negative attention 10 or 15 years ago, being accused of vacuuming up all the talented skilled people from South Africa, hampering that country's progress and depriving them of their investment in a generation which that country could not afford to lose.

    In a way that affirms the value of immigrants to their new home; their loss really was our gain, at least according to them (my hope would be that it would create new links between the two countries that open up trade and create new opportunities for partnership and mutual growth). Regardless, from that you might infer that a relatively open border is good for at least the receiving country. But it does also raise the question of responsibility to the source country. Does it exist?

    Which brings me to the second point, and to a conversation that I think might have waned over the last 20 years: what about multilateral development? Where are the common market areas, related institutions, treaties, and support services, that would open up much more of the world to the development of local opportunities? There are definite national trends in immigration. Canada and the US, Australia, Europe, all receive outsized interest from people hoping to move to our parts of the world. But why shouldn't Russia or Mozambique also be worth moving to, such that an American would see that as a realistic option given the right family situation and job opportunity?

    If most of the world were to achieve economic and social standards to make those places realistic destinations for immigration, I think it would take away a lot of the pressures that currently attach to the influx…questions about integration, questions about displaced opportunity, etc. It would make the question of where to settle more of a personal choice and less of a macroeconomic worry.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    First, we are told that immigrants do not compete because they only take jobs that Americans do not want, picking strawberries, driving taxis, construction, janitorial work etc. That is why we need them.
    But the instant they cross the border, they are downtrodden minorities, entitled to special benefits and subsidies, to allow them to compete with Americans, to "level the playing field". The purpose of the level playing field is to allow them to compete more successfully against Americans, i.e., to take opportunities from them, including our own minorities.
    You have never, ever, documented any special benefits or subsidies given to illegals -- in fact, at every turn you've been proven wrong, and even admonished by mods to stop repeating the same falsehoods.

    As for legals, the moment they cross the border they are Americans in the making -- that's the point of legal immigration.

    Last, if it weren't for Republican policies of the last twenty years, we'd have eight to twelve million more jobs right now, and if not for combined two-party tyranny policies, at least double that. The problem is not immigration, the problem is politicians interfering in the economy for ideological reasons with no thought for consequences.


    Citizenism as a principle doesn't help us decide immigration policy in the least absent awareness of the rest of the situation. So long as we have two essentially anti-citizen parties in power, that's where our efforts should be concentrated: bringing down the big two.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    What would you suggest as a remedy to stop Hispanics flooding the United States?
    For the illegals? Move some military bases to the border, and let infantry tanks patrol as anti-insurgent practice.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Sounds like you are racially profiling, HUH? We also have a problem employing, feeding and sheltering our own, but the hordes keep coming. Actually, LEGAL immigration is as big a problem as illegal, (a million a year) and they are not predominately Hispanic. They are from all over. But they compete with Americans for jobs, opportunities and service at the expense of the taxpayers, and then vote with the Democrats to hurt Americans.
    I am spelling out the level of problem that we are facing from around the globe because of our geographical position as the gate of entry into Europe from Africa and Asia detailing the various nationalities and the very human problems that they carry with them including health related, as well hunger, homelessness and penury.

    Most immigrants use Greece as a temporary refuge en route to northern Europe however, our resources are finite and stretched to breaking point. Greece cannot afford immigrants of any origin including north Europeans
    Last edited by kallipolis; July 7th, 2013 at 09:12 AM.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    For the illegals? Move some military bases to the border, and let infantry tanks patrol as anti-insurgent practice.
    The North eastern corner of Greece bordering Turkey is heavily mined with fences, Army patrols, helicopters etc.

    There is a very well organised smuggling racket operating between Turkey and the Greek Islands where the migrants are dumped. There are over two thousand Greek islands.

    Many migrants are discovered on beaches starving, cold, ill with children who are given temporary accommodation in church halls by the local authorities, fed and given medical assistance followed by a free ferry boat ticket to Athens where organisations that I volunteer for assist them find shelter and food usually provided by the churches and town halls.

    It's an enormous problem for a small country such as Greece to cope with.
    Last edited by kallipolis; July 7th, 2013 at 09:13 AM.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You have never, ever, documented any special benefits or subsidies given to illegals -- in fact, at every turn you've been proven wrong, and even admonished by mods to stop repeating the same falsehoods.

    As for legals, the moment they cross the border they are Americans in the making -- that's the point of legal immigration.

    Last, if it weren't for Republican policies of the last twenty years, we'd have eight to twelve million more jobs right now, and if not for combined two-party tyranny policies, at least double that. The problem is not immigration, the problem is politicians interfering in the economy for ideological reasons with no thought for consequences.


    Citizenism as a principle doesn't help us decide immigration policy in the least absent awareness of the rest of the situation. So long as we have two essentially anti-citizen parties in power, that's where our efforts should be concentrated: bringing down the big two.
    My comment was responsive to Opinterphs post 33 responding to my earlier post 31. We are discussing governmental benefits and subsidies to legal immigrants. Liberal justify immigrants as needed to take jobs Americans don't want, but then give them benefits to enable them to compete successfully with citizens for opportunities and jobs that citizens do want.
    This thread, you have failed to notice, is about the morality or advisability of bring in large numbers of immigrants to the detriment of and at the expense of existing citizens. It is no answer to say once they cross the border they are Americans in the making. The question is why do we allow it when it damages our existing citizens.
    It is a complete falsehood to say that Republican policies cost us jobs. Democrat hostility to employers and endless impositions of burdens, have caused many businesses to lose out altogether to foreign competition with lower expenses, and forced other businesses to send jobs to countries where employers are not regarded as the enemy. Democrats have always thought; we're the good, guys, we are on the side employees against employers, and they have been largely successful.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 7th, 2013 at 09:45 AM.

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    Re: Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    My comment was responsive to Opinterphs post 33 responding to my earlier post 31. We are discussing governmental benefits and subsidies to legal immigrants. Liberal justify immigrants as needed to take jobs Americans don't want, but then give them benefits to enable them to compete successfully with citizens for opportunities and jobs that citizens do want.
    This thread, you have failed to notice, is about the morality or advisability of bring in large numbers of immigrants to the detriment of and at the expense of existing citizens. It is no answer to say once they cross the border they are Americans in the making. The question is why do we allow it when it damages our existing citizens.
    Your question may be answered by considering broader labour migration patterns and the logic of the present phase of global capitalism. Several issues need to be considered here, as Raul Delgado Wise points out:

    a) the re-launching of imperialism (policies of global domination) in search of cheap and flexible labor, as well as natural resources from the South;

    b) the growing asymmetries among and within countries and regions;

    c) the increase and intensification of social inequalities;

    d) the configuration of a gigantic global reserve army of labor associated with the emergence of severe forms of labor precarization and exploitation; and

    e) the predominance of forced migration as the primary mode of human mobility under conditions of extreme vulnerability.
    Global capitalism affects every country in different ways. In the US it's the loss of well-paid manufacturing jobs, the rise in financialisation of the economy, etc. Immigration is a symptom of this condition. It is underpinned by increasingly authoritarian political power. There appears to be no alternative to this neoliberal agenda, for democracy itself has become its hostage.

    http://monthlyreview.org/2013/02/01/...rced-migration
    Last edited by opinterph; July 7th, 2013 at 02:56 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags

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