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  1. #51
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If there is all that misery, why do they keep coming in the millions and millions? Any misery results from our inability to create good jobs fast enough to provide decent lives for the excess population. If they resent wealth, it is sheer hypocrisy, since they knew of American wealth before they come.
    I don't know what this unfocused bullshit is aimed at, but it's not a response to what I wrote.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  2. #52

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Lincoln was a Republican, and Amendments 13, 14, an 15 were passed by Republican majorities with very little help from Democrats.

  3. #53

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I don't know what this unfocused bullshit is aimed at, but it's not a response to what I wrote.
    You need to read your own post to which I responded.

  4. #54
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    I did. Your response still had nothing to do with it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  5. #55
    Porn Star Zu-Mendel's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Do people out there not understand that equating the modern Republicans and Democrats with the policies the parties supported before the 60's flip-flop makes them look as ridiculous as somebody invoking Godwin's Law? Not a single GOP President behind GWB would be capable of securing the 2016 GOP nomination, not even George HW Bush is 'conservative' enough for them.
    If you can't be part of the solution, there is plenty of money to be made being a part of the problem.

  6. #56
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    How is the GOP sending any business overseas? It is not. The Dems are driving business overseas by imposing an endless stream of burdens, giving businesses little choice but to escape or die. The business leaders tend to vote Republican, but it is not the GOP driving them away.
    You've forgotten Romney?
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  7. #57

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Nonsense. Republicans have moved toward the center while Democrats have moved far left. But Kennedy, Roosevelt, Johnson ot Truman would have no chance as a Democrat. Kennedy proposed cutting taxes, saying "a rising tide lifts all boats, " and Johnson did cut taxes.All four would be horrified at the Democrat facilitation of abortion. All four would have laughed at the idea of two men marrying. None approved of gays in the military. All were practising Christians. Republicans only look further right because the left has moved so very far left.

  8. #58
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    I am sorry, it seems to me like you are defending homophobia. Am I mistaken?

    And I am sure Democrats would love to cut taxes, which is always popular. Except, you CAN'T do that in times of crisis, something which Republicans of old knew. Now they are either too incompetent, or too cynical and only interested in votes to do the right thing.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #59
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    All four would have laughed at the idea of two men marrying. None approved of gays in the military.
    You listed those together with other things you fervently approve of, so I have to assume you laugh at the idea of two men marrying, and do not approve of gays in the military. After all, you have never once cheered at any of our victories throughout the US, so it's an easy conclusion to come to.

    But to answer your hateful comment about Democrats and gays, it has NOTHING to do with left or right. It is simply that western society wasn't ready to accept us until the last few decades. And once it was, it was the smarter, more compassionate and progressive people who took the torch. It could have been the Republicans, if they were ANY of these things, but they aren't, so it was the Democrats. Whether a Democrat from before these times would have accepted us or not, is utterly irrelevant, because society as a whole wasn't ready to accept us.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  10. #60
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I am sorry, it seems to me like you are defending homophobia. Am I mistaken?

    And I am sure Democrats would love to cut taxes, which is always popular. Except, you CAN'T do that in times of crisis, something which Republicans of old knew. Now they are either too incompetent, or too cynical and only interested in votes to do the right thing.
    I think you're right. This is a definite homophobia attack to a gay forum. Looks like we got a straightie among us.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  11. #61
    A Total Bottom mbamike's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Lincoln* ended slavery. Also, please see 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.

    *A different kind of Republican. By 2013 GOP standards, Lincoln would have been considered a socialist.
    I totally agree! Today's Republican party is nothing like it use to be.

    Homophobia kills!

  12. #62

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I think you're right. This is a definite homophobia attack to a gay forum. Looks like we got a straightie among us.
    Nonsense as always. The claim that the GOP has moved right is always based on the social positions, in large part. It is not true. It is the Democrats who have moved. I have always saiid here that I approved of gay marriage and considered it to be inevitable. But economic and other questions are more important to me.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 4th, 2013 at 02:07 PM.

  13. #63
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nonsense. Republicans have moved toward the center while Democrats have moved far left. But Kennedy, Roosevelt, Johnson ot Truman would have no chance as a Democrat. Kennedy proposed cutting taxes, saying "a rising tide lifts all boats, " and Johnson did cut taxes.All four would be horrified at the Democrat facilitation of abortion. All four would have laughed at the idea of two men marrying. None approved of gays in the military. All were practising Christians. Republicans only look further right because the left has moved so very far left.


    Nothing personal, but this post made me laugh out loud for quite a long time.

    Thanks.

  14. #64
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nonsense as always. The claim that the GOP has moved right is always based on the social positions, in large part. It is not true. It is the Democrats who have moved. I have always saiid here that I approved of gay marriage and considered it to be inevitable. But economic and other questions are more important to me.
    You don't believe that the GOP has moved right? Could you then perchance explain how the GOP of today is similar to the great Republican presidents of the mid 20th century? Cause their politics are currently being labeled as socialist by "conservatives".

    And no, you've never expressed any support for gay marriage. You have not once cheered for a state achieving marriage equality, you were utterly mute last week when DOMA and Prop 8 fell. So we don't have ANY reason to believe you're even gay, let alone supportive of gay rights.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  15. #65
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    ^ It is funny isn't it?

  16. #66
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    The republican party is currently doing this:

    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  17. #67
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Republicans have moved further right on economic issues, and stayed put with their 1950s social positions. Democrats have moved further right economically from the days of FDR and Truman. They have moved somewhat further left on social issues. Some of the 'good' Republicans that we once had would have better luck running as socialists today.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 4th, 2013 at 02:50 PM.

  18. #68
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    The Republicans have most definitely shifted to the right. In history it was the republicans who supported the end of slavery. Now the republicans cannot even support Universal health care or equal marriage rights for all residents of the United States. The Democrats have shifted to the right as well. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was in favor of Universal Health Care. There were two national health care bills in FDR's presidency, in 1935 and 1939.

  19. #69

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    The Republicans have most definitely shifted to the right. In history it was the republicans who supported the end of slavery. Now the republicans cannot even support Universal health care or equal marriage rights for all residents of the United States. The Democrats have shifted to the right as well. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was in favor of Universal Health Care. There were two national health care bills in FDR's presidency, in 1935 and 1939.
    There was never a time when the Republicans would have supported Universal heal care. Neither party would have supported equal marriage rights even a decade ago or at any time prior thereto. FDR may have favored universal care, but his party and the country did not, else it would have happened. The fact that many democrats now support it shows a Democrat shift to the left, not to the right.

  20. #70
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Lincoln was a Republican, and Amendments 13, 14, an 15 were passed by Republican majorities with very little help from Democrats.
    INdeed they were...but that is in the past. THe Republican party of today is exactly the one the Republican party of old fought against.

  21. #71
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nonsense as always. The claim that the GOP has moved right is always based on the social positions, in large part. It is not true. It is the Democrats who have moved. I have always saiid here that I approved of gay marriage and considered it to be inevitable. But economic and other questions are more important to me.
    Sorry,any money the Republicans can save me comes at condoning their attempts to make me and millions of other LGBT citizens second class ones for life.
    And as Roly has pointed out,I have never seen you celebrate a post where a state has allowed marriage equality. THe only times you post on gay marriage is to tell us how Republicans aren't against us when it's written in their platform.

  22. #72
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Yes, and it is especially suspicious, considering that gay rights and winning in states is TOTALLY non-partisan and therefore there's no reason for him not to cheer. Heck, WE have cheered Republicans coming out in support of us...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  23. #73
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Yup and here's a secret I'll share with everyone,if someone like Jon Huntsmans or Fred Karger had gotten the nomination,good chance I would have voted for them instead of Obama.
    But they didn't and I'll be damned if I vote for someone who signed NOM's pledge. A couple of you don't get it,so long as the Republican party continues its anti-gay platform,we aren't going to vote for them no matter what they offer.

  24. #74
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    There was never a time when the Republicans would have supported Universal heal care. Neither party would have supported equal marriage rights even a decade ago or at any time prior thereto. FDR may have favored universal care, but his party and the country did not, else it would have happened. The fact that many democrats now support it shows a Democrat shift to the left, not to the right.
    I do not understand how you can say that democrats supporting the same issue today as they supported in 1935 is a shift to the left. To me it would seem to be that the democrats have neither shifted at all, or that since they have compromised from a universal healthcare stance to an affordable healthcare stance, would be a shift to the right. But you are probably correct, Republicans do not support universal HEAL care. Maybe a little proofreading might be in order.

  25. #75
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    INdeed they were...but that is in the past. THe Republican party of today is exactly the one the Republican party of old fought against.
    Actually, if you look it up, Lincoln was a Whig. The Whigs later joined the Free Land Democrats to form the Republican Party

  26. #76

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    I do not understand how you can say that democrats supporting the same issue today as they supported in 1935 is a shift to the left. To me it would seem to be that the democrats have neither shifted at all, or that since they have compromised from a universal healthcare stance to an affordable healthcare stance, would be a shift to the right. But you are probably correct, Republicans do not support universal HEAL care. Maybe a little proofreading might be in order.
    The Democrats did not support universal health care. FDR personally may have liked the idea, but if his party had supported it, it would have gone through. Where is your evidence that the party supported it? Their position on gay issues have totally changed, and these are the issues which are usually referred to when it is claimed that the GOP has moved to the right.

  27. #77
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Um, no, gay issues are only a fraction of what is DAILY referred to when people state that the GOP has moved to the right.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  28. #78
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    SO many issues the Republicans have lurched to the right on,it's downright scary

  29. #79

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    SO many issues the Republicans have lurched to the right on,it's downright scary
    In what respects do you claim the Republicans have moved right?

  30. #80
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    We've already named them off.

  31. #81

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    We've already named them off.
    You have not and can not.

  32. #82
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Ah yes, I see now. Personal incredulity it is. I'll only cover a handful of issues.

    Since about 1950, the Republican party has been moving further to the right, some areas sooner than others. Why circa 1950? It's been the most recent 'high point' since Lincoln, the Whig.

    Economic:
    1. Taxes.
    In the late 1950s, the Republican Party was largely supportive of taxing those with the most money. In fact, the top bracket was nearly 90% for income taxes. Since then, they became increasingly fond of lowering taxes. It didn't destroy the world, and it was popular. Starting in about 1970, the taxes were severely lowered on the uppermost brackets without significantly changing the rates for the other brackets. After all, if a little is good then more MUST be better. Why did they do this? It was a good idea called supply-side economics, which stressed that the most wealthy put the most into the economy, and should therefore not be 'burdened'. The idea was so popular that the Republicans embraced it fully, without the good conscience to test it first. There was a fear that the economy would spiral downward after the oil crisis and resulting stagflation in the 1970s, so it was thrust onto the scene.

    Short term effects were largely good, the stagflation ended. Long term effects were poor and helped lead to the 2008 crash. Long term, the money left in the wealthiest people's hands didn't go into the market. Money failed to 'trickle down' to the lower classes, and to pad their wallets, bad loans were given over an extended period of time and all it took was a single misstep to send the economy crashing down. Now, we already knew that supply-side economics didn't work well, but it did not appear (to the masses) to immediately endanger the financial situation. It was a good idea that didn't pan out. More to your query, it was further to the right than the Republicans had supported before. In fact, most Republicans still subscribe to the idea.

    2. Welfare
    In the 1950s, the Republican Party had more supportive sentiments towards it. They saw how well it worked to end the Great Depression and still held on to it. As their views on taxation moved further right, so did their views on social services. In the 1990s, the Republican Party passed a series of bills that destroyed the welfare system of yore. They felt that government should not be as much of a service to the people, that government only held the country together. A more conservative view, thus, a move further to the right.

    3. Healthcare
    The Republican Party was crazy for Medicare and Medicaid, the socialist love-babies in the US. In recent years, they've tried to reduce the number of people eligible for Medicaid and reduce government funding for Medicare, conservative measures. Again, further right.

    At no point in history has the Republican Party given an official statement supporting universal single payer healthcare. They oppose it for the same reasons they favor reducing Medicare and Medicaid; for them it's the government providing another superfluous service to its citizens.

    4. Military
    While not the best fit for the economics category, the primary facet counts. The Republican Party hasn't so much moved to the right here as moved to the unnecessarily powerful. Fiscally quite liberal with the military, that is a trait shared by most far-right parties. Right-wing or totalitarian (or both) parties are more likely to expand their militaries than left-wing or moderate parties. That brings us to the arms race against the USSR (the worlds longest pissing contest) where, even though we had CLEARLY superior forces and weaponry, we continued to bloat ourselves even after the collapse of the USSR. This expansion was led by the Republican Party (though there was Democratic support) and is a move further right, toward totalitarianism (rather than conservatism).

    Social:
    1. Abortion
    Whereas at first, they merely disdained the Roe v. Wade ruling, they now are trying with all their might to overturn it. A move further right, but a move away from classical liberalism and conservatism.

    2. LGBT rights (general)
    Honorary mention. Whereas at first, they didn't give two shits about gays and just tried to quietly withhold rights, they eventually (by about the 1970s) began to overtly suppress us--the same as just about everyone else at the time. Now, while most other groups are moving closer to equality, the Republican party [officially] has held fast.

    I could write more but I'm getting bored of spelling this out for you.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 7th, 2013 at 08:30 PM.

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    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    There was never a time when the Republicans would have supported Universal heal care. Neither party would have supported equal marriage rights even a decade ago or at any time prior thereto. FDR may have favored universal care, but his party and the country did not, else it would have happened. The fact that many democrats now support it shows a Democrat shift to the left, not to the right.
    Actually, before the 1920's the republican party probably would have supported universal health care, they were in the business of expanding the government back then.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You have not and can not.
    http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/1979...-civil-rights/

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    I do not understand how you can say that democrats supporting the same issue today as they supported in 1935 is a shift to the left. To me it would seem to be that the democrats have neither shifted at all, or that since they have compromised from a universal healthcare stance to an affordable healthcare stance, would be a shift to the right. But you are probably correct, Republicans do not support universal HEAL care. Maybe a little proofreading might be in order.
    NO!!!! These are the times for my morning laughs!
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  36. #86

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    I would agree that Teddy Roosevelt was to the left of the party--as shown by his split from Taft--and popularity among Republicans was personal rather than based on his economic policies. Goldwater was to the left of Republicans on social issues. But most of your examples are a function of the fact that Republican Presidents have usually had to compromise with Democrats in control of one or both houses. The bills a President signs are not usually what he would prefer.

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    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Except when they are Obama's, correct? Then it's entirely his evil agenda which happens exactly the way he wants it. You're having cake and eating it all over the place today, aren't you?

    Also, "Republicans" refers to the party, not to Republican presidents.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  38. #88

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Except when they are Obama's, correct? Then it's entirely his evil agenda which happens exactly the way he wants it. You're having cake and eating it all over the place today, aren't you?

    Also, "Republicans" refers to the party, not to Republican presidents.
    I have not said that Obama's bills are entirely his ideas. I think that quarrel is with some one else. But neither is the reverse true-that it is a GOP measure because Obama did not get everything he wanted. Actually, he did not have a health care plan. He left it to Congress to come up with a bill to for him to sign. The most telling point is how eager the Democrats here and elsewhere are to shift the blame for the impending train wreck to the Republicans. It won't work. Obama owns Obamacare and he must stand or fall with it.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Hold on, you disregard the examples I wrote because you're making the backdoor claim that the Democrats are further right than the Republicans? If a Republican compromises with a Democrat and the end result is further right than the Republican's plan, it's either A. not a compromise or B. total bullshit. You've actually described how the Democrats have been moving further right. They are the party of never-ending compromise.

    The Republican Party's policies are mostly internally generated or a reaction to the policies of the Democrats.

    The other possibility is that you're responding to the civil rights post, and not mine.

  40. #90

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    .??? I did not say Democrats are to the right of Republicans.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Republican Presidents have usually had to compromise with Democrats in control of one or both houses. The bills a President signs are not usually what he would prefer.
    It was over this statement, but I know see it was a reply to a different post. I initially read it as a reply to my post, where this statement would have implied that Democrats were pushing further right than the Republicans (which we know not to be true).

    In other words, nevermind.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I would agree that Teddy Roosevelt was to the left of the party--as shown by his split from Taft--and popularity among Republicans was personal rather than based on his economic policies. Goldwater was to the left of Republicans on social issues. But most of your examples are a function of the fact that Republican Presidents have usually had to compromise with Democrats in control of one or both houses. The bills a President signs are not usually what he would prefer.
    And yet you try to claim that everything is Obama's fault. Hmm, can you say double standard?

  43. #93

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    And yet you try to claim that everything is Obama's fault. Hmm, can you say double standard?
    Where did I say that? Remember the liberals are still blaming Bush for everything.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Where did I say that? Remember the liberals are still blaming Bush for everything.
    You know, even a broken clock is right twice a day. He was far too mentally incompetent to have done most of what we ascribed to him. We should only blame Dubya for picking Dick Cheney, the guy that actually did it.

    Equal blame sound fair to you?
    Last edited by mightbe; July 9th, 2013 at 05:45 PM.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Welfare, is trickle down from the government. It doesn't work. Capitalism works fine when we allow it.
    Capitalism, as with any system where more power lies in the hands of a few, does not work, because in the end it leads to tyranny.

    What does work is a free market.

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    No, those jobs were not considered good jobs. People came in for hope and got handed a basket of shit. The jobs were necessary. If they protested over conditions or anything, they were gone. Disposable. Nobody came for those jobs. Those were the jobs they were told they had to take. Life in Poland or Latvia or Germany or Sweden or wherever was not nearly as bad as life was in the more industrialised places. It was a downgrade. They were lied to when they were told there was hope in America (recall that we sent scouts to these areas). Life may not have been a cakewalk in the old country but it was certainly worse here.

    Obviously you do not understand that The Jungle is a firsthand account, by a journalist who actually went undercover and did interviews. It's a piece of journalism in the guise of a novel. The conditions and reasons were all very real. I suggested it because I figured entertainment would be an easier way to penetrate your skull.

    It doesn't matter that socialism doesn't work. Nor does capitalism or communism. None of them 'work'. I included it because it was relevant. Dirty capitalism, where all capitalism eventually leads, was so disenchanting that the immigrants, poor, and disabled picked an equally bad idea and ran with it.

    Say it with me: Capitalism works no better than socialism. Capitalism works no better than socialism. Capitalism works no better than socialism.
    Right. The picture painted was of owning their own shops or whatever, but the reality was that not many could do that unless many more did grunt work that provided income.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Capitalism, as with any system where more power lies in the hands of a few, does not work, because in the end it leads to tyranny.

    What does work is a free market.
    That's not true either. No system works. Every system will eventually lead to tyranny. Why? Because it is human nature. Some people want to lead and some want to follow. In any system that has ever or will ever be implemented, there will always be those who rise up above the others and use that advantage to further their own interests. People, by nature, are selfish and will almost always look out for themselves first. It's been proven throughout history. Whether you're a communist/socialist economy, a free market economy, or anything in between, the result is always the same when it comes to wealth and power.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    So you resent the wealth of Americans. In a just economy, the rich- and many others- will get richer.
    No, he resents what any sensible person resents: a country with a system where the wealthy, after taxes, are even farther above the rest than before taxes, and therefore is designed to move wealth upward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Remember, it was Pres Kennedy who popularized that axiom, as he was proposing a tax cut to stimulate the economy.
    Yes -- at a point where two major things were different than today: the national debt was being paid toward nonexistence, and everyone's tax rates were in double digits.

    What Reaganomics fans fail to realize is that while the Laffer curve is valid for a portion of economic phenomena, it is actually a limited-case scenario dependent on a number of variables of which tax rates are only one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Americans as a whole don't have too much wealth because most of the wealth in this country is trapped in the greedy paws of a very few exuberantly and disgustingly rich plutocrats. And THEIR wealth I most definitely resent, because it's cruelly gained, at the expense of the misery of millions...
    And more importantly, the flow of the country's wealth lies under the control of those few. That's not just, nor is it good economics.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Not to mention that those at the top are, indeed, given a LOT of "special rights" which the rest of us don't have. preferential tax treatment, such as the maximum 15% capital gains rate, which they would REALLY like to see changed to ZERO. (I don't let those flat tax proposals, which SOUND great at first, fool me - they *NEVER* propose taxing unearned income, only the income derived from LABOR and other active decisions - the "passive" receivers of income would be asked to do...absolutely...NOTHING.)
    The idea is that unearned income should never be taxed. The uber-wealthy thrive on unearned income, and they don't want it touched.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  49. #99

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, he resents what any sensible person resents: a country with a system where the wealthy, after taxes, are even farther above the rest than before taxes, and therefore is designed to move wealth upward.
    Your premise is that taxes should prevent wealth from increasing. That is not taxation, it is confiscation. And, no, our tax system does not move wealth upward. Economic sucess increases wealth and you want the tax system to prevent that increase of wealth.
    The primary reason for the increasing gap among the income groups is that the rapidly increasing number people competing for lower pay keeps them down, while those numbers do not impede upper income people.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 9th, 2013 at 06:59 PM.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    That's not true either. No system works. Every system will eventually lead to tyranny. Why? Because it is human nature. Some people want to lead and some want to follow. In any system that has ever or will ever be implemented, there will always be those who rise up above the others and use that advantage to further their own interests. People, by nature, are selfish and will almost always look out for themselves first. It's been proven throughout history. Whether you're a communist/socialist economy, a free market economy, or anything in between, the result is always the same when it comes to wealth and power.
    Sorry, but you're wrong. By the time wealth and power are sufficiently concentrated as to pose a threat to liberty, the market is no longer free.

    A free market always works.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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