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  1. #1
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    I was just talking to frankfrank about Kentucky and Texas. Texas being called stupid about things. Well guess what? It is. It is all because of Perry and the GOP. Just read this article. It's ridiculous the things that go on in this state. This is still hurting West Tx in their disaster.

    http://www.alternet.org/america-turn...t=7&paging=off

    Smirking Chimp / By Bob Burnett

    Is America Turning into Texas?
    What's happened Texas graphically illustrates the choice facing America.

    July 2, 2013 |

    On April 17 there was a horrific explosion at the West Chemical and Fertilizer plant in West, Texas, that killed 15 people, injured more than 200, destroyed or damaged 150 homes and caused at least $100 million in losses. Five days later, Texas Governor Rick Perry was in Illinois trying to lure business to Texas, praising his state's limited regulations. Is Texas America's future?

    Republican conservatives have a simple economic precept: what's good for business is good for America. Conservatives believe states should provide a "business friendly" environment with low taxes and few regulations. They argue this inevitably creates jobs and builds community through the "trickle-down" theory of Reaganomics: "a rising tide lifts all boats."
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  2. #2
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Reaganomics failed miserably. All it amounted to was an exercise in Ayn Rand fascism, which Reagan worshiped. If this country is dumb enough to re-live that horrible period, under the new label of some republican "solution", then it deserves everything it gets. You can put a tuxedo on a goat...but it's still a goat.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Thanks Orlandude, I was pretty certain that this would get a lot of hits. Maybe the Jubbers took me serious and will hit on Kentucky now.
    But you guys have to look at what Perry and the GOP is doing to Texas and maybe even the USA.
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Kill me now.

    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    It is the me first, last and always attitude that conservatives adore and liberals abhor.

    If LBJ were alive today, he'd be railroaded out of the state.

  6. #6

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    America was built in times of less regulation of business, and has declined with increased regulation. You are wrong in thinking that socialism/ liberalism/ communism will work. And is truly bizarre when you think that more economic freedom equals fascism, while the Democrat plan of absolute regulation is not fascism. All economics, is trickle down economics. You have to build oa factory for people to work there. What is welfare but trickle down economics?

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    And that America that was built in times of less regulation has since collapsed. We've had to build a new one since 1930, the last time you looked at economics. That second American economy almost gave out in 2008 from the strain of 30 years of bad policies, the same reason the old one did. Coincidentally, those 30 years (in both cases to boot) were mostly under Republican, business-first administrations.

    You obviously don't understand what trickle-down economics means. Trickle down is the exact opposite of welfare. Welfare gives money to the bottom, trickle down gives it to the top. We've ascertained that the money doesn't trickle down from the top. If anything, money trickles out from the middle class. Likewise, it doesn't trickle up into the middle class. But there's a financial barrier between the uppermost people who got the money and the people that it would've helped.

    A good idea in theory, but after 30 years, it still doesn't work. Communism is an equally good idea, just that it doesn't work either. Lenin worked for years to create a communist state and it gave it in much less time. He actually had to revert to state capitalism, the NEP plan. He had to outright lie to get his fellow Bolsheviks to latch on to the idea instead of executing him. When Lenin did die, the brief moment of hope for the USSR, as a quasi-social democracy (read: working version of capitalism), vanished.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    America was built in times of less regulation of business, and has declined with increased regulation.
    Regulation has increased with the increasing complexity of society.

    You believe that American commerce has declined since the Great Depression? Excuse me, but that's laughable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Democrat plan of absolute regulation is not fascism.
    What is "absolute regulation?"

    And why do you claim that Democrats support this thing that nobody has ever heard of?


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    All economics, is trickle down economics.
    Nonsense.

    For most of its history, the American economy has been "trickle up." Rich people become rich by marketing goods and services to the middle class. Without the middle class, economies stagnate. During both of our great depressions (1929 and 2008), wealthy people had enormous amounts of money (both depressions occurred precisely at the point of historically disproportionate wealth distribution in America). Depressions happen when too much money becomes concentrated in the hands of too few people. That's the definition of a depression. If "trickle down" had any validity to it at all, depressions should be impossible.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; July 3rd, 2013 at 10:38 AM.

  9. #9

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Welfare, is trickle down from the government. It doesn't work. Capitalism works fine when we allow it.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    It works when we allow the middle class to have liveable wages,which we don't.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Welfare, is trickle down from the government. It doesn't work.
    Welfare is what Jesus taught.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Capitalism works fine when we allow it.
    So, let's allow it. Instead of socializing profits for rich people.

  12. #12

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    I didn't say the decline has been since the depression, it has been since the 50s. When American industry dominated the world.
    We are on a path to absolute regulation because the Democrats can never stop thinking up more regulations. When they don't work they blame something else and impose more. They will never be able to think we have enough.
    The lower and middle classes are victims of the cult of immigration, which drags wages down at all levels not requiring extensive education and training.

  13. #13

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Welfare is what Jesus taught.




    So, let's allow it. Instead of socializing profits for rich people.
    Jesus lived in a preindustrial economy when income came from land and it was owned by a few people. The only way the poor could get more was if the landowner took less. Industrial economics is entirely different.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    It's always hilarious to me when people claim that trickle down works but the rich just don't have ENOUGH to let it trickle down, due to evil regulations. Benvolio, have you actually checked how much money these corporations have? It's retarded how much wealth is concentrated in the 1% today. To claim they need more deregulation and then the wealth will magically flow down to the middle class makes you sound like a moron.

    Oh, and America might have been built in a time of less regulation, but it was also built in a time of slavery.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Jesus lived in a preindustrial economy when income came from land and it was owned by a few people. The only way the poor could get more was if the landowner took less. Industrial economics is entirely different.
    So, your claim is that Jesus is not relevant to modern society.

    Noted.

    Given this irrelevance, why does the Republican Party keep trying to cram Him down our throats?
    Last edited by T-Rexx; July 3rd, 2013 at 11:13 AM.

  16. #16
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Welfare, is trickle down from the government.
    The "golden shower" is more like it. It's really hot.

    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

  17. #17

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It's always hilarious to me when people claim that trickle down works but the rich just don't have ENOUGH to let it trickle down, due to evil regulations. Benvolio, have you actually checked how much money these corporations have? It's retarded how much wealth is concentrated in the 1% today. To claim they need more deregulation and then the wealth will magically flow down to the middle class makes you sound like a moron.

    Oh, and America might have been built in a time of less regulation, but it was also built in a time of slavery.
    No , the greatest part of America's economic growth came after the Civil War, at that time the most rapid growth in world history. I am not sur the rate of growth has been equaled today. Much of the growth was based on American innovation. Sometime watch the TV series The Men Who Built America.The economic growth was mostly in the north while the south remained agricultural.
    I did not say the deregulation would cause wealth to flow down. It would facilitate economic expansion and growth in jobs. Wage growth cannot happen so long as immigration outstrips job growth.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Jesus lived in a preindustrial economy when income came from land and it was owned by a few people. The only way the poor could get more was if the landowner took less. Industrial economics is entirely different.
    Do you even ever bother to read what you write?

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No , the greatest part of America's economic growth came after the Civil War, at that time the most rapid growth in world history. I am not sur the rate of growth has been equaled today. Much of the growth was based on American innovation. Sometime watch the TV series The Men Who Built America.The economic growth was mostly in the north while the south remained agricultural.
    Rolyo may or may not have made a slip there, depending on the definition of slavery. Slavery, as in terms of what persisted in the South until the 1865, is incorrect. Financial slavery, like practiced by your "men who built America", wherein businessmen would squeeze their workers to death, peaking in about 1910, is a correct term. Read The Jungle if you'd like a cultural portrait of the working class and immigrants in the early 1900s. It should be interesting to you to find that this dirty capitalism lead to the greatest period of support of American socialism. In fact, the protagonist of The Jungle, Jurgis Rudkis, actually becomes a socialist by the end of the novel. But it's the journey that led him there that shows how awful life was.

    That America collapsed onto itself shortly thereafter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    No , the greatest part of America's economic growth came after the Civil War, at that time the most rapid growth in world history. I am not sur the rate of growth has been equaled today. Much of the growth was based on American innovation. Sometime watch the TV series The Men Who Built America.The economic growth was mostly in the north while the south remained agricultural.
    I did not say the deregulation would cause wealth to flow down. It would facilitate economic expansion and growth in jobs. Wage growth cannot happen so long as immigration outstrips job growth.
    All of which fails to address anything I said about regulations and trickle down economics...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    It's a case of personal incredulity. He therefore ignored it.

  22. #22

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    Rolyo may or may not have made a slip there, depending on the definition of slavery. Slavery, as in terms of what persisted in the South until the 1865, is incorrect. Financial slavery, like practiced by your "men who built America", wherein businessmen would squeeze their workers to death, peaking in about 1910, is a correct term. Read The Jungle if you'd like a cultural portrait of the working class and immigrants in the early 1900s. It should be interesting to you to find that this dirty capitalism lead to the greatest period of support of American socialism. In fact, the protagonist of The Jungle, Jurgis Rudkis, actually becomes a socialist by the end of the novel. But it's the journey that led him there that shows how awful life was.

    That America collapsed onto itself shortly thereafter.
    Works of fiction are not the best way to learn the facts. Those jobs were considered good jobs which people came from all over the world to get. Life was often hard, to be sure, but life everywhere was tough. It is capitalism which has improved the life of humans in industrial countries, not socialism. It is in retrospect that life for those workers seems really bad, often by comparing it with our lives, and not by comparing with the lives of others at the time.
    At the time the jungle was written it was possible to fanticize that socialism might work, and the author had a motivation to exaggerate the hardship of capitalism in promoting his socialist agenda. We now know that socialism does not work and also breads hardship.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 3rd, 2013 at 02:00 PM.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    "A rising tide lifts all boats."\

    And those unfortunate people without boats, who are basically the 99%, drown.
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    No, those jobs were not considered good jobs. People came in for hope and got handed a basket of shit. The jobs were necessary. If they protested over conditions or anything, they were gone. Disposable. Nobody came for those jobs. Those were the jobs they were told they had to take. Life in Poland or Latvia or Germany or Sweden or wherever was not nearly as bad as life was in the more industrialised places. It was a downgrade. They were lied to when they were told there was hope in America (recall that we sent scouts to these areas). Life may not have been a cakewalk in the old country but it was certainly worse here.

    Obviously you do not understand that The Jungle is a firsthand account, by a journalist who actually went undercover and did interviews. It's a piece of journalism in the guise of a novel. The conditions and reasons were all very real. I suggested it because I figured entertainment would be an easier way to penetrate your skull.

    It doesn't matter that socialism doesn't work. Nor does capitalism or communism. None of them 'work'. I included it because it was relevant. Dirty capitalism, where all capitalism eventually leads, was so disenchanting that the immigrants, poor, and disabled picked an equally bad idea and ran with it.

    Say it with me: Capitalism works no better than socialism. Capitalism works no better than socialism. Capitalism works no better than socialism.

  25. #25

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    All of which fails to address anything I said about regulations and trickle down economics...
    So you resent the wealth of Americans. In a just economy, the rich- and many others- will get richer. But the big question is what about the rest. Will the government allow them to climb economically, or will it hold them down as our government does. Some people will always find a way to get ahead of the crowd harder work and innovation. The government will allow them and encourage them, since their building and innovation benefits others. And the governments will allow then to keep the larger part of the wealth they create. So, yes, in a just economy he rich will get richer. Industrial economies are not zero sum economies, so one man's increase does not take away from another.
    The big flaw of our economy is that we continue to flood the labor market with excess numbers, forcing workers to compete for jobs at lower wages. Meanwhile much of what industry pays for work is directed away from wages to government priorities giving an impression that workers are underpaid. "Benefits" for workers, mandated by the government are part of what the companies pay for labor, while the workers would probably prefer cash.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 3rd, 2013 at 02:27 PM.

  26. #26

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    "A rising tide lifts all boats."\

    And those unfortunate people without boats, who are basically the 99%, drown.
    Remember, it was Pres Kennedy who popularized that axiom, as he was proposing a tax cut to stimulate the economy.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    So? You think everybody here automatically agrees with everything he ever thought or said because of the letter next to his name?

  28. #28

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Of course Capitalism works. Without it we would all still be living in one room hovels with one set of clothing, outdoor toilets, etc as per 1750.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    And that America that was built in times of less regulation has since collapsed. We've had to build a new one since 1930, the last time you looked at economics. That second American economy almost gave out in 2008 from the strain of 30 years of bad policies, the same reason the old one did. Coincidentally, those 30 years (in both cases to boot) were mostly under Republican, business-first administrations.

    You obviously don't understand what trickle-down economics means. Trickle down is the exact opposite of welfare. Welfare gives money to the bottom, trickle down gives it to the top. We've ascertained that the money doesn't trickle down from the top. If anything, money trickles out from the middle class. Likewise, it doesn't trickle up into the middle class. But there's a financial barrier between the uppermost people who got the money and the people that it would've helped.

    A good idea in theory, but after 30 years, it still doesn't work. Communism is an equally good idea, just that it doesn't work either. Lenin worked for years to create a communist state and it gave it in much less time. He actually had to revert to state capitalism, the NEP plan. He had to outright lie to get his fellow Bolsheviks to latch on to the idea instead of executing him. When Lenin did die, the brief moment of hope for the USSR, as a quasi-social democracy (read: working version of capitalism), vanished.
    Good Lord! Where did you come from and welcome to the JUB forum. Hoping you stick around a long time.
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No , the greatest part of America's economic growth came after the Civil War, at that time the most rapid growth in world history. I am not sur the rate of growth has been equaled today. Much of the growth was based on American innovation. Sometime watch the TV series The Men Who Built America.The economic growth was mostly in the north while the south remained agricultural.
    I did not say the deregulation would cause wealth to flow down. It would facilitate economic expansion and growth in jobs. Wage growth cannot happen so long as immigration outstrips job growth.
    Immigration! And there it is. It always comes back to immigration. It's my thread and I want immigration left out.
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    No, those jobs were not considered good jobs. People came in for hope and got handed a basket of shit. The jobs were necessary. If they protested over conditions or anything, they were gone. Disposable. Nobody came for those jobs. Those were the jobs they were told they had to take. Life in Poland or Latvia or Germany or Sweden or wherever was not nearly as bad as life was in the more industrialised places. It was a downgrade. They were lied to when they were told there was hope in America (recall that we sent scouts to these areas). Life may not have been a cakewalk in the old country but it was certainly worse here.

    Obviously you do not understand that The Jungle is a firsthand account, by a journalist who actually went undercover and did interviews. It's a piece of journalism in the guise of a novel. The conditions and reasons were all very real. I suggested it because I figured entertainment would be an easier way to penetrate your skull.

    It doesn't matter that socialism doesn't work. Nor does capitalism or communism. None of them 'work'. I included it because it was relevant. Dirty capitalism, where all capitalism eventually leads, was so disenchanting that the immigrants, poor, and disabled picked an equally bad idea and ran with it.

    Say it with me: Capitalism works no better than socialism. Capitalism works no better than socialism. Capitalism works no better than socialism.
    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    So you resent the wealth of Americans. In a just economy, the rich- and many others- will get richer. But the big question is what about the rest. Will the government allow them to climb economically, or will it hold them down as our government does. Some people will always find a way to get ahead of the crowd harder work and innovation. The government will allow them and encourage them, since their building and innovation benefits others. And the governments will allow then to keep the larger part of the wealth they create. So, yes, in a just economy he rich will get richer. Industrial economies are not zero sum economies, so one man's increase does not take away from another.
    The big flaw of our economy is that we continue to flood the labor market with excess numbers, forcing workers to compete for jobs at lower wages. Meanwhile much of what industry pays for work is directed away from wages to government priorities giving an impression that workers are underpaid. "Benefits" for workers, mandated by the government are part of what the companies pay for labor, while the workers would probably prefer cash.
    Americans as a whole don't have too much wealth because most of the wealth in this country is trapped in the greedy paws of a very few exuberantly and disgustingly rich plutocrats. And THEIR wealth I most definitely resent, because it's cruelly gained, at the expense of the misery of millions...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Is America Turning into Texas?
    Good god, I hope not. I'm already planning to leave the state. Must I leave the country, too?

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Without it we would all still be living in one room hovels with one set of clothing, outdoor toilets, etc as per 1750.
    You're missing something...the way the general public got out of that was through regulation and watering down the capitalism. We didn't see massive unilateral changes until we became a social democracy. We saw slight improvements that would've come about either way. The rich got richer, and they saw the luxury. The poor either got poorer or stayed about the same (not absolute terms, but relative ones) until the old system collapsed under its own weight.

    Certain degrees of capitalism did (and do) create incentive, which is why it is a necessary component of social democracy. But that facet must stand alongside regulations, interventionism, socialized services (hospitals, schools, police, etc.), and extreme distrust of laissez-faire.

    For someone so 'concerned' about the poor in this country because of the "FLud uV ILEEGULs!!! 11 milyun perr year!!1!" you missed the fact that it's only gotten better for the poor. They're not nearly as relatively poor as 'poor' used to be. They're still quite poor, but not so much as their 1890s counterparts. They live a much higher quality of life, thanks in large part to access to products and services they would've never gotten had it not been for regulation and intervention.

    Capitalism on it's own does not, cannot, and will not work on its own. Certain parts of the philosophy work in conjunction with parts of socialism. Neither work on their own.

    Try saying it out loud.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Good Lord! Where did you come from and welcome to the JUB forum. Hoping you stick around a long time.
    I've actually been here for about a year. I don't comment much in this particular forum unless I have something to say. Thank you though.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Americans as a whole don't have too much wealth because most of the wealth in this country is trapped in the greedy paws of a very few exuberantly and disgustingly rich plutocrats. And THEIR wealth I most definitely resent, because it's cruelly gained, at the expense of the misery of millions...
    Not to mention that those at the top are, indeed, given a LOT of "special rights" which the rest of us don't have. preferential tax treatment, such as the maximum 15% capital gains rate, which they would REALLY like to see changed to ZERO. (I don't let those flat tax proposals, which SOUND great at first, fool me - they *NEVER* propose taxing unearned income, only the income derived from LABOR and other active decisions - the "passive" receivers of income would be asked to do...absolutely...NOTHING.)

    Not even one cent of additional Social Security tax levied on the vast amount of their income, as the ceiling is just over $100,000.

    Funny how this is almost always a Republican thing, and it's that same group of people who used to bitch and bitch about gay people asking for "special rights."
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    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    White Eagle, I do not agree with your original post entirely, not EVERYONE thinks Texans are stupid. They do have this incredible habit of electing stupid people to run the state, but not all Texans are stupid. I know several intelligent ones in this forum.

    Benvolio, The Industrial Revolution occurred during the 18th and 19th Centuries around the world. It was not an American Innovation. While we were fighting a civil war, the rest of the world found industrialization. We joined during the early 20th Century. Early Industrialists treated workers like there was an inexhaustible supply. Men, Women, and children were employed in sweatshops entirely like the ones we decry today. The employees in these sweatshops were underpaid, and overworked. Children were forced to work 10 - 12 hours a day, the same as their adult co-workers. Also wages were low, with the vast majority of people earning 20 - 40% less than a living wage. In these factories, children were paid less than their adult counterparts. It was these conditions among other things that brought about the Labor Unions. It was the Labor Unions that fought for and won child labor laws, mandatory K - 12 education, minimum wage requirements, and Worker Safety laws. Before these reforms were brought about, it was not uncommon for people to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents. It was not uncommon for employees to be housed in "Company Towns" forced to live in substandard housing and purchase all of their food, goods, and services from Company stores, often at inflated prices. Every time you state that we need to reduce regulation, and allow capitalism to flourish, these are the exact conditions that you are telling us you want to return the United States to. Karl Marx saw capitalism as the precursor to Socialism, and that as the precursor to Communism. We now know that none of these philosophies work by themselves, we need a mixture for society to function. We need corporations, but we need a watch dog watching over the corporations to protect the workers. We need capitalism, but we need to temper it with socialism for it to work optimally.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    Benvolio, The Industrial Revolution occurred during the 18th and 19th Centuries around the world. It was not an American Innovation. While we were fighting a civil war, the rest of the world found industrialization. We joined during the early 20th Century. Early Industrialists treated workers like there was an inexhaustible supply. Men, Women, and children were employed in sweatshops entirely like the ones we decry today. The employees in these sweatshops were underpaid, and overworked. Children were forced to work 10 - 12 hours a day, the same as their adult co-workers. Also wages were low, with the vast majority of people earning 20 - 40% less than a living wage. In these factories, children were paid less than their adult counterparts. It was these conditions among other things that brought about the Labor Unions. It was the Labor Unions that fought for and won child labor laws, mandatory K - 12 education, minimum wage requirements, and Worker Safety laws. Before these reforms were brought about, it was not uncommon for people to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents. It was not uncommon for employees to be housed in "Company Towns" forced to live in substandard housing and purchase all of their food, goods, and services from Company stores, often at inflated prices. Every time you state that we need to reduce regulation, and allow capitalism to flourish, these are the exact conditions that you are telling us you want to return the United States to. Karl Marx saw capitalism as the precursor to Socialism, and that as the precursor to Communism. We now know that none of these philosophies work by themselves, we need a mixture for society to function. We need corporations, but we need a watch dog watching over the corporations to protect the workers. We need capitalism, but we need to temper it with socialism for it to work optimally.
    Bellissimo--grazie! Grazie!

    To bad it probably won't be read by the one that needs enlightening.
    Last edited by mightbe; July 3rd, 2013 at 11:45 PM.

  39. #39
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    White Eagle, I do not agree with your original post entirely, not EVERYONE thinks Texans are stupid. They do have this incredible habit of electing stupid people to run the state, but not all Texans are stupid. I know several intelligent ones in this forum.

    Benvolio, The Industrial Revolution occurred during the 18th and 19th Centuries around the world. It was not an American Innovation. While we were fighting a civil war, the rest of the world found industrialization. We joined during the early 20th Century. Early Industrialists treated workers like there was an inexhaustible supply. Men, Women, and children were employed in sweatshops entirely like the ones we decry today. The employees in these sweatshops were underpaid, and overworked. Children were forced to work 10 - 12 hours a day, the same as their adult co-workers. Also wages were low, with the vast majority of people earning 20 - 40% less than a living wage. In these factories, children were paid less than their adult counterparts. It was these conditions among other things that brought about the Labor Unions. It was the Labor Unions that fought for and won child labor laws, mandatory K - 12 education, minimum wage requirements, and Worker Safety laws. Before these reforms were brought about, it was not uncommon for people to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents. It was not uncommon for employees to be housed in "Company Towns" forced to live in substandard housing and purchase all of their food, goods, and services from Company stores, often at inflated prices. Every time you state that we need to reduce regulation, and allow capitalism to flourish, these are the exact conditions that you are telling us you want to return the United States to. Karl Marx saw capitalism as the precursor to Socialism, and that as the precursor to Communism. We now know that none of these philosophies work by themselves, we need a mixture for society to function. We need corporations, but we need a watch dog watching over the corporations to protect the workers. We need capitalism, but we need to temper it with socialism for it to work optimally.
    Wonderfully said. Therefore, it will be ignored.
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  40. #40
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by 80KGold View Post
    Good god, I hope not. I'm already planning to leave the state. Must I leave the country, too?
    Don't leave! We'll get it changed but we need you to help!
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  41. #41
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    I've actually been here for about a year. I don't comment much in this particular forum unless I have something to say. Thank you though.
    And, boy, do you have something to say. Thanks.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    White Eagle, I do not agree with your original post entirely, not EVERYONE thinks Texans are stupid. They do have this incredible habit of electing stupid people to run the state, but not all Texans are stupid. I know several intelligent ones in this forum.

    Benvolio, The Industrial Revolution occurred during the 18th and 19th Centuries around the world. It was not an American Innovation. While we were fighting a civil war, the rest of the world found industrialization. We joined during the early 20th Century. Early Industrialists treated workers like there was an inexhaustible supply. Men, Women, and children were employed in sweatshops entirely like the ones we decry today. The employees in these sweatshops were underpaid, and overworked. Children were forced to work 10 - 12 hours a day, the same as their adult co-workers. Also wages were low, with the vast majority of people earning 20 - 40% less than a living wage. In these factories, children were paid less than their adult counterparts. It was these conditions among other things that brought about the Labor Unions. It was the Labor Unions that fought for and won child labor laws, mandatory K - 12 education, minimum wage requirements, and Worker Safety laws. Before these reforms were brought about, it was not uncommon for people to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents. It was not uncommon for employees to be housed in "Company Towns" forced to live in substandard housing and purchase all of their food, goods, and services from Company stores, often at inflated prices. Every time you state that we need to reduce regulation, and allow capitalism to flourish, these are the exact conditions that you are telling us you want to return the United States to. Karl Marx saw capitalism as the precursor to Socialism, and that as the precursor to Communism. We now know that none of these philosophies work by themselves, we need a mixture for society to function. We need corporations, but we need a watch dog watching over the corporations to protect the workers. We need capitalism, but we need to temper it with socialism for it to work optimally.
    I know. It just sticks in the craw to hear. When the Republican Governor was elected in the 70s he was the first in 110 years. I want it back to that. But thanks anyway.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  43. #43

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    White Eagle, I do not agree with your original post entirely, not EVERYONE thinks Texans are stupid. They do have this incredible habit of electing stupid people to run the state, but not all Texans are stupid. I know several intelligent ones in this forum.

    Benvolio, The Industrial Revolution occurred during the 18th and 19th Centuries around the world. It was not an American Innovation. While we were fighting a civil war, the rest of the world found industrialization. We joined during the early 20th Century. Early Industrialists treated workers like there was an inexhaustible supply. Men, Women, and children were employed in sweatshops entirely like the ones we decry today. The employees in these sweatshops were underpaid, and overworked. Children were forced to work 10 - 12 hours a day, the same as their adult co-workers. Also wages were low, with the vast majority of people earning 20 - 40% less than a living wage. In these factories, children were paid less than their adult counterparts. It was these conditions among other things that brought about the Labor Unions. It was the Labor Unions that fought for and won child labor laws, mandatory K - 12 education, minimum wage requirements, and Worker Safety laws. Before these reforms were brought about, it was not uncommon for people to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents. It was not uncommon for employees to be housed in "Company Towns" forced to live in substandard housing and purchase all of their food, goods, and services from Company stores, often at inflated prices. Every time you state that we need to reduce regulation, and allow capitalism to flourish, these are the exact conditions that you are telling us you want to return the United States to. Karl Marx saw capitalism as the precursor to Socialism, and that as the precursor to Communism. We now know that none of these philosophies work by themselves, we need a mixture for society to function. We need corporations, but we need a watch dog watching over the corporations to protect the workers. We need capitalism, but we need to temper it with socialism for it to work optimally.
    That is very wrong. England innovated the Industrial Revolution, and it spread quickly to the English speaking US. We were among the first to build mills for making cloth, starting in the 1700s. We were among the first to manufacture with interchangeable parts. By the time of the Civil War we were among the most heavily industrialized countries in the world, and, of course, the war was an huge stimulus requiring the manufacture of huge quantities of clothing, weapons, railroad equipment, etc. One of the reasons the Union won the war was that most of the manufacturing was in the north, while the south experienced shortages throughout the war. But the end of the war we were one of if not the largest industrial economy.
    While you complain about working conditions, it is a fallacy to compare those conditions with later conditions, rather than comparing them with the available alternatives at the time. While no one wants to return to 19th century conditions, the Democrats have thrown out the baby with the bath water. By over regulating, they have, and continue to, impair our ability to compete and innovate, destroying or driving much of our industrial base overseas. And they are not slowing the regulation. They love the bath water but hate that baby.

  44. #44

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I know. It just sticks in the craw to hear. When the Republican Governor was elected in the 70s he was the first in 110 years. I want it back to that. But thanks anyway.
    Texas hated the Republicans for ending slavery. They voted Democrat to continue segregation, discrimination and the Jim Crow laws. They did not become Republican until after they had given those things up. You eagerness to return to those bad old days is shameful.

  45. #45

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Americans as a whole don't have too much wealth because most of the wealth in this country is trapped in the greedy paws of a very few exuberantly and disgustingly rich plutocrats. And THEIR wealth I most definitely resent, because it's cruelly gained, at the expense of the misery of millions...
    If there is all that misery, why do they keep coming in the millions and millions? Any misery results from our inability to create good jobs fast enough to provide decent lives for the excess population. If they resent wealth, it is sheer hypocrisy, since they knew of American wealth before they come.

  46. #46
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I know. It just sticks in the craw to hear. When the Republican Governor was elected in the 70s he was the first in 110 years. I want it back to that. But thanks anyway.
    Once again, I forget what I've said in the past. I think I have been putting Texas down more than others. It's the GOP!
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    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Texas hated the Republicans for ending slavery. They voted Democrat to continue segregation, discrimination and the Jim Crow laws. They did not become Republican until after they had given those things up. You eagerness to return to those bad old days is shameful.
    What the fuck do you know about Texas? You can remember to write "an huge" instead of "a huge" but you cannot listen to what people are saying. You say "By over regulating, they have, Dems that is, and continue to, impair our ability to compete and innovate, destroying or driving much of our industrial base overseas." Do you see what the GOP is doing by sending all the business overseas? Do you not see that?
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  48. #48

    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    What the fuck do you know about Texas? You can remember to write "an huge" instead of "a huge" but you cannot listen to what people are saying. You say "By over regulating, they have, Dems that is, and continue to, impair our ability to compete and innovate, destroying or driving much of our industrial base overseas." Do you see what the GOP is doing by sending all the business overseas? Do you not see that?
    How is the GOP sending any business overseas? It is not. The Dems are driving business overseas by imposing an endless stream of burdens, giving businesses little choice but to escape or die. The business leaders tend to vote Republican, but it is not the GOP driving them away.

  49. #49
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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Texas hated the Republicans for ending slavery.
    Lincoln* ended slavery. Also, please see 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.

    *A different kind of Republican. By 2013 GOP standards, Lincoln would have been considered a socialist.

    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

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    Re: Is America Turning into Texas? Woe is us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    our inability to create good jobs fast enough to provide decent lives for the excess population.

    1 316 = 0.0032

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