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  1. #1
    Elderhostile Gay Dejavudoo's Avatar
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    Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Often on JUB when something bad happens to an unpopular celebrity or nation or group, posters attribute it to karma.

    Although few study and understand the religious concept of karma, many apply it in everyday life as a convenient mechanism for accountability (especially retribution) without invoking an active deity.

    How does that view deal with the 19 firefighters burned to death in Arizona this week. How does it account for their deaths?

    Discuss.
    There are TWO kinds of people in the world -- the kind who believe there are two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

  2. #2
    dances atop the bellcurve fetaby's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    So what could they have possibly done to deserve such a fate? Perhaps take on the job... And when they come back, perhaps they will not choose a profession so close to the flame.

    Karma is about the choices a person makes and the effects those choices have. We like to romanticize karma as having some semblance of cosmic justice according to moral codes we devise. It is the boomerang that returns to us all that we send out. But obviously it's more than that, it's the throwing of the boomerang.
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    You're assuming, of course, that karma is a real thing that actually exists.

    Assuming that it is for this scenario, maybe they were evil people? They could've been wife-beaters, child-beaters, or rapists. They could've been sadists, who enjoyed torturing and killing animals. Or maybe they killed someone in the past. Et cetera.

    Just because someone puts out fires and evacuates people from burning buildings doesn't necessarily make them a "good person".

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Has there been some suggestion that firefighters are unpopular or deserving of retribution?

  5. #5

    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    No, Axxess, I don't think he's assuming anything, he's asking those who do 'believe' to explain or make sense of the situation.

    Which counts me out, really.

    But, I'll give it a shot, anyway.

    In this case, it might not be the firefighters who are being "punished". They are just the "tool" being used to administer "pay back" to someone else - a city official, for instance, or a property owner. And, perhaps the firefighters/tools will be very well rewarded for their sacrifice.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    WTF, karma

    becuz they were trying to save lives, property.. what did they do to have karma kill them. Nothing

    How insensitive are you.. well you wrote this post that answer that.

    what a pendejo............I mean really.
    You cant change the way the wind blow's, but you can change the angle of your sail to take you somewhere else!!

  7. #7
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    I really dont understand this post.

    Karma and firefighters? are you drinking heavily?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  8. #8
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    in their past lives... THEY WERE HITLER!

    karma is just one way of denying that the universe is indifferent and random and inherently without meaning. "god works in mysterious ways" is another.

  9. #9
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by hylas View Post
    in their past lives... THEY WERE HITLER!

    karma is just one way of denying that the universe is indifferent and random and inherently without meaning. "god works in mysterious ways" is another.
    well said.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Often on JUB when something bad happens to an unpopular celebrity or nation or group, posters attribute it to karma.

    Although few study and understand the religious concept of karma, many apply it in everyday life as a convenient mechanism for accountability (especially retribution) without invoking an active deity.

    How does that view deal with the 19 firefighters burned to death in Arizona this week. How does it account for their deaths?

    Discuss.
    You are just trolling right?

    Karma didn't kill them, the fire did.

    19 families do not deserve this suffering.
    Never cease to find it strange
    How at midnight things seem hopeless
    But by dawn they've changed

  11. #11
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Looks like God wasn't in Arizona to answer these poor firefighter heroes pleas to save them from their horrible deaths, but he was in the area a little while ago for that ridiculous high wire stunt and the mumbling of Nik Wailenda crossing the Grand Canyon on a wire praising Jesus 63 times and the Lord 39. Wallenda is considered a hero and will get more coverage then these 19 smoke eaters will get .

    Karma is bullshit.

  12. #12
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    I'm listening to the new Carcass; this thread premise is irrelevant and none of you motherfuckers can bring me down today!
    "I’ve been in the Danger Zone, east of the Pacific Ocean,

    west of London England, south of Mars, and north of Hell..."

  13. #13
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    If one believes in Karma then one has to assume that all these men commited some heinous crime for the retribution to be such a hideous death. Seems unlikely to me.

    So they commited their crimes in a precedent life if you believe in reincarnation. All 19 of them seems once again unlikely to me.

    So many people suffer enormously in their lives that I am neither able to accept it as Karma nor as the will of God.

    For many people life stinks.
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  15. #15
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    I believe that KARMA very possibly exists - but causes of misery or death include karma, COINCIDENCE, negligence, unforeseen things, etc. Karma isn't the end-all and be-all.

    Even Murphy's Law, which we usually use in a humorous context, can cause horrific things to happen.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
    "But, hey, who cares about women and their rights when the religious liberty of a nationwide chain of arts and crafts stores is at stake?" - Daily Kos, 30 June 2014
    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  16. #16
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Without reading the 19 death in details,
    I think they mis-calculate how dangerous fire is and too ready to come heroes.
    Sad but it was their fault to be in harms way.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  17. #17
    JUB Addict m1thousand's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    YARNELL, Ariz. - A sudden wind storm turned an Arizona forest fire into an out-of-control inferno that trapped and killed 19 people, including members of an elite crew of firefighters trained to battle the nation's fiercest wildfires. It was the deadliest single day for U.S. firefighters since Sept. 11.

    Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/fi...#ixzz2Xpbf0MIs
    Last edited by m1thousand; July 1st, 2013 at 02:24 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    They knew the dangers of their job, and sadly, they perished doing the job they were willing to do.

    As for Karma - there seems to be a lot of it in the bible - people getting their comeuppance because they failed to be bullied into doing some over bearing power allegedly in the sky and wanted to exact death for its fragile ego. Or like other superstitions, you can choose not to believe it and say it happened because shit happens.


  19. #19
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    I believe that karma can be used to explain away a lot of things in hindsight. At least it's far more interesting that just mere coincidence. As for the firefighters, I don't see how them being firefighters is karma, unless one thinks they were asking for it by getting into their job.
    Last edited by dereperez; July 1st, 2013 at 03:40 PM.

  20. #20

    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    I've always viewed karma less in the black and white sense of if you do good, you'll be rewarded, if you do bad, you'll perish blah blah blah. I've viewed it more as if you put positive energy into the world around and strive to be a good person to others, it causes others to feel and do the same, thus eventually making others more likely to help you and look out for your best interest.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    It is vipaka that bites you in the ass, not karma.

  22. #22
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    wen nature sleep is sleep maybe
    wen nature wake it wake kind a
    wen human think ust go back a sleep

    thankyou
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    Mr down slide---Jons joe ans a ed now gonna walk on part_walkwalkwalk_---Mr up slide

  23. #23
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    I find this thread disturbing, to put it mildly. My father, who was a firefighter by choice, knew the risks he took every day. He spent six months in the hospital after saving 7 children from a raging house fire. I grew up never knowing if he was coming home again. But the one thing I know for certain was that he, like any other fireman did his job because he loved helping people, not for glory or hero status. And those who die in the line of duty are not doing so because of karma; they are doing so because circumstances beyond their control overtook them while they attempted to help keep others from harm. They were not made heroes by dying; they achieved that by being there doing a job most of us would never choose to do. This thread does them all an injustice.

  24. #24
    Elderhostile Gay Dejavudoo's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    No, Vaughn, this thread is about proponents of karma. No one who has read over 10,000 posts I have made in over seven years can believe I do not mourn or respect the dead here.

    I thought my OP was clear: karma cannot be conveniently whipped out with glee when one wants to celebrate the death of comeuppance of a foe, but then ignored when it is inconvenient such as the tragic deaths of these firefighters.

    Far from being an inappropriate or disrespectful thread, it is the seizing of a teachable moment. This example is so obviously an incongruous fit with those who summon karma as if it were a genie when needed to explain the downfall of someone "deserving."

    Believe in who or what you choose, or not, but cherry picking the application of karma must be addressed if one truly is going to propagate it as causation. Gravity doesn't work part-time.

    The occasion of their deaths is a teachable moment for those who will learn, and it has nothing to do with firefighting.

    Please read what I said in the OP, not what various ones of you were reading into it.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; July 1st, 2013 at 09:22 PM.
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  25. #25
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Define karma.

  26. #26
    Elderhostile Gay Dejavudoo's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    I think that is where the problem is. Karma is being bantered about by many unlearned folks who simply see it as the explanation for "what goes around comes around."

    My point is simply to expose that. The same group generally find Western religion comical and irrational. This misapplication of karma in this tragedy is just a proof case. Jumping back to an unprovable and now supposed past life of transgression is not more rational or defensible than the minefield of inconsistent belief in Western religions.

    Yeah, I guess it qualifies as a pet peeve. I do get sick of hearing it whipped out when a senator is caught in an affair, but ignored when the innocent die.
    There are TWO kinds of people in the world -- the kind who believe there are two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

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    Hi. I'm Darth Nihilus. Native Son's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    My point is simply to expose that.
    OMG. To what end?

  28. #28

    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    ^ to expose our foolishness.

  29. #29
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    I think that is where the problem is. Karma is being bantered about by many unlearned folks who simply see it as the explanation for "what goes around comes around."

    My point is simply to expose that. The same group generally find Western religion comical and irrational. This misapplication of karma in this tragedy is just a proof case. Jumping back to an unprovable and now supposed past life of transgression is not more rational or defensible than the minefield of inconsistent belief in Western religions.

    Yeah, I guess it qualifies as a pet peeve. I do get sick of hearing it whipped out when a senator is caught in an affair, but ignored when the innocent die.
    I think I understand where you are coming from .....

    My definition of karma is balance rather than some bizarre system of punishment or reward...and I know it is a belief and so I don't impose it on anyone else and I don't really think in terms of other people's karma since theirs is not my path to walk...none of my business. I am a true pagan. I beleive in God...I love God...but I don't define God or let anyone else do it for me. .

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ^ to expose our foolishness.
    I thought it was exposed already.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ^ to expose our foolishness.
    Ah. Well, it all just reeks of "my god is more powerful than your god."

    Just know, Pats......somewhere out there is a Telstra 'poop thread' with your name written all over it.
    Last edited by Native Son; July 1st, 2013 at 10:21 PM.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
    It is vipaka that bites you in the ass, not karma.
    As Dejavudoo has pointed out, the pop usage of 'karma' in the west is rather drippy.

    There's a good argument to be made that this idea of karma-as-justice has more in common with christianity than its native hinduism and iterations.

  33. #33
    Elderhostile Gay Dejavudoo's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Native Son View Post
    Ah. Well, it all just reeks of "my god is more powerful than your god."
    No, you misunderstand my motive. It is a teachable moment. You cannot reach your conclusion without adding an entire subtext that is wholly missing. There is no defense or propagation of Western religion anywhere in my posts, nor do I ever assert such a thing in my threads. The closest I come is to posit that the same harsh light that shines on Western religion in JUB posts is rarely turned to the Eastern counterparts.

    Many gay men, and others disaffected from Western religion, adopt Eastern mystical religions or their trappings. Some do it in a reactionary mode, while holding onto a core of their former beliefs, but dressed up in newer and exotic robes.

    Others truly become adherents and disciples of their new faith.

    But, what we get on JUB in the mention of karma is most often bubble gum references and deeply ignorant of the context and meaning of phrases used from other religions.

    I have no desire to have a pissing contest of religions. I have and do have friends of other faiths, and we never experience friction or competition about it because we respect one another's choices.

    It is reductionist to see this as a putdown of Hinduism or karma -- it is neither. It is a case in point about the misapplication of karma as a concept by those who have held on to an avenging god from their past, but will not say so.

    The thread is truly enlightening if you read all of it.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; July 2nd, 2013 at 04:35 AM.
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Who knows though, but that there isn't an argument to be made for past lives or actions or inactions bringing these 19 men to the same point in this plane of existence? But in order to reconcile this, one also has to accept that all those who died on 9-11. or the Rwandan genocide, or the Nazi death camps, or the plague somehow ended up as a collective in their mode of death.

    Sometimes the universe is a bitch, ain't she?

    Karma doesn't exclude the possibility of one person's action or inaction having an impact on innocents though. Quite the opposite. Think of them as cosmic collateral damage.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    ^Thank you.

    That is my understanding from Hindus, and a needed "correction" of the use of the term.

    It is not a surrogate for Thor's thunderbolt or the hand of God. They are separately evolved concepts. When the two are blurred, Hinduism is unfairly burdened with a belief it doesn't espouse.

    As we know, in wisdom literature of all peoples, two questions often arise: why do the wicked prosper, and why do bad things happen to good people.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; July 2nd, 2013 at 05:01 AM.
    There are TWO kinds of people in the world -- the kind who believe there are two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    There is no such thing as Karma.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  37. #37

    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    ^Thank you.

    That is my understanding from Hindus, and a needed "correction" of the use of the term.

    It is not a surrogate for Thor's thunderbolt or the hand of God. They are separately evolved concepts. When the two are blurred, Hinduism is unfairly burdened with a belief it doesn't espouse.

    As we know, in wisdom literature of all peoples, two questions often arise: why do the wicked prosper, and why do bad things happen to good people.

    'were'

    'were' separately evolved concepts.

    New 'religions', and new versions and combinations of old 'religions', are popping up/coming to light all the time.

    The Mormon Church is less than 200 years old, and just look at them go.

    The Jews were supposed to have had some rocks with some stuff written in their god's own handwriting - you know, 'written in stone' - but they seem to have misplaced them. Like the Mormons' gold tablets, they're (conveniently?) lost forever.

    So the evolving/redefining of 'religions' and 'religious' terms continues. There is no contract.

  38. #38
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Many gay men, and others disaffected from Western religion, adopt Eastern mystical religions or their trappings. Some do it in a reactionary mode, while holding onto a core of their former beliefs, but dressed up in newer and exotic robes.

    Others truly become adherents and disciples of their new faith.

    But, what we get on JUB in the mention of karma is most often bubble gum references and deeply ignorant of the context and meaning of phrases used from other religions.

    I have no desire to have a pissing contest of religions. I have and do have friends of other faiths, and we never experience friction or competition about it because we respect one another's choices.

    It is reductionist to see this as a putdown of Hinduism or karma -- it is neither. It is a case in point about the misapplication of karma as a concept by those who have held on to an avenging god from their past, but will not say so.
    The thread is truly enlightening if you read all of it.
    It is no different really than the new generation of slut shamers. They protest religion on one hand yet they carry forth the message and judgements without much, if any, pause.

    I just had a guy on another board think I had a problem because I was so open about sex and spiritual...like I couldn't be one without the other. I was insulted...I have had just about enough of that from other gay men. How far backwards do we want to go? I shudder to think what will happen if Republicans or right wing Christians ever get the bright idea to embrace us. People who want approval and acceptance from other people are easy to control. YIKES!

  39. #39
    JUB Addict racer2438's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by The Flash View Post
    I find this thread disturbing, to put it mildly. My father, who was a firefighter by choice, knew the risks he took every day. He spent six months in the hospital after saving 7 children from a raging house fire. I grew up never knowing if he was coming home again. But the one thing I know for certain was that he, like any other fireman did his job because he loved helping people, not for glory or hero status. And those who die in the line of duty are not doing so because of karma; they are doing so because circumstances beyond their control overtook them while they attempted to help keep others from harm. They were not made heroes by dying; they achieved that by being there doing a job most of us would never choose to do. This thread does them all an injustice.


    This is so perfectly well said......
    You cant change the way the wind blow's, but you can change the angle of your sail to take you somewhere else!!

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by hylas View Post
    in their past lives... THEY WERE HITLER!

    karma is just one way of denying that the universe is indifferent and random and inherently without meaning. "god works in mysterious ways" is another.
    karma exists because humans create it. its like beginners luck, deja vu, all those things. not sure what it has to do with firefighters
    http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic30903_2.gif

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Who knows though, but that there isn't an argument to be made for past lives or actions or inactions bringing these 19 men to the same point in this plane of existence? But in order to reconcile this, one also has to accept that all those who died on 9-11. or the Rwandan genocide, or the Nazi death camps, or the plague somehow ended up as a collective in their mode of death.

    Sometimes the universe is a bitch, ain't she?

    Karma doesn't exclude the possibility of one person's action or inaction having an impact on innocents though. Quite the opposite. Think of them as cosmic collateral damage.
    Yes, I'm not certain that karma's emphasis in Hinduism/Buddhism is on the fruition of specific (historical) events like this. That strikes me as a western idea. Karma is more linked with the arisal of talents, predispositions, failings and duties. I do think it's fair to say that some duties are regarded as more pleasurable or edifying, and some as burdens.

  42. #42

    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    They're Heroes



    R.I.P

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    Elderhostile Gay Dejavudoo's Avatar
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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Yes. They are heroes, of course, no matter how irrelevant that is to this thread.
    There are TWO kinds of people in the world -- the kind who believe there are two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    After seeing more about ten and the fact that they must have burned too death (unless you can be taken over by smoke), I don't like the word karma in this thread. They gave their lives and died the most horrible way.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Then you might read the posts about karma in this thread and learn.

    The OP in no way bought into the misuse of "karma" and suggested the firemen deserved to die. The entire point of the thread was to use a blatantly obvious example of why JUBBERs should stop using the word to mean retribution.

    This thread is unintentionally becoming a case study in how people don't read. There have been more than a few reactionary posts about the valor of the firemen when no one accused these men (and women?) of being anything less than innocent victims.
    There are TWO kinds of people in the world -- the kind who believe there are two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    well, Dejavúdoo, perhaps the response to the thread is a perfect example of karma. You've purposefully structured your thread in a provocative baiting manner and now you're catching a lot of lulz.

    Ironic that you'd like to raise awareness of the misuse/abuse of a religious term bandied about by jubbers while your own religious allegiance is well known despite your current username. Good job.
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    DEjavudoo,
    Many didnt understand the thread. Hero would have been a more fitting word

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Karma killed those on 9/11 too? "God works in mysterious ways so every death is God's will"

    yeah...you bet.

    (the preceding is pure sarcasm)
    Your post comments are forwarded to the CIA.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    My Christian beliefs are no less tolerant of those who impute tragedy to "God's will." It's just not something that ever pops up on this forum.

    I've never masked or hidden my own faith, nor have I ever evangelized to proselytized on JUB. Many times I've taken an apologist's role here, granted.

    My thread is indeed meant to provoke, but it can in no way be understood to be imputing the honor of the dead -- quite the opposite.

    Hero is absolutely a fair description, but again only proves that you aren't reading the thread, Mark. No one assigned the dead any epithet at all, so there is no "other" for "hero" to be replacing.

    As for the attacks on the World Trade Towers, I would indeed impute that to karma in all seriousness. Centuries of American intervention in the Mideast and decades of manipulation of countries with natural resources has surely come home to roost in the events of 9/11. This isn't some recent epiphany either. There was a prayer group that met that next night at my church on Wednesday, September 12. The handful of people gathered were still in shock and felt bewildered by the events. Even then, I proffered that we likely knew only a fraction of the offenses that the CIA had committed abroad.

    On top of that, the military might of the U.S. leaves small enemies little choice in retribution BUT the means of terrorism and such attacks. Although the deaths of the civilians were terrible that day, they were no worse than many deaths my country has caused in the pursuit of industrial domination of the third world.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; July 4th, 2013 at 11:48 AM.
    There are TWO kinds of people in the world -- the kind who believe there are two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

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    Re: Karma kills 19 firefighters in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    I think that is where the problem is. Karma is being bantered about by many unlearned folks who simply see it as the explanation for "what goes around comes around."

    My point is simply to expose that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    But, what we get on JUB in the mention of karma is most often bubble gum references and deeply ignorant of the context and meaning of phrases used from other religions.
    Perhaps this is a teachable moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    As for the attacks on the World Trade Towers, I would indeed impute that to karma in all seriousness.

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