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  1. #1
    Match in the gas tank..
    Taralen's Avatar
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    Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    All the discussions here and in CE's & Politics are from months ago.

    I thought it was more important than that.
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  2. #2

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?



    I hear that Jeantel's testimony was a "labyrinth of cultural nuances".

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3525805.html

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    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post


    I hear that Jeantel's testimony was a "labyrinth of cultural nuances".

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3525805.html

    She was a horrible witness. Her communication skills are non-existent, she's rude, disrespectful, and dishonest, basically a train wreck on the stand. The prosecution has nothing to hang their collective hats on. Every prosecution witness has clearly presented a case of reasonable doubt.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 1st, 2013 at 06:50 AM.

  4. #4
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    It's pretty much what I predicted. 2nd degree murder was too high for them to reach. They should have gone for involuntary manslaughter and call it a win.

    I'm beginning to suspect that the prosecution tried to reach too high intentionally so they would lose and still not have a PR disaster on their hands. They could always say "we tried" even though they never intended to charge GZ with anything.

  5. #5
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Thinking about this case, I'm still sadden by it. If anything, TM reminds me of my ex-boyfriend. He was black. The first time I invited him to stay over at my place, he reluctantly agreed. While there, he was always afraid to come out with me. And he insisted that I stayed with him every time we went for a walk or something else that involved him getting out of the house. I was puzzled by this but left it alone.

    Second time, same thing. I finally asked him what the deal was, and he simply told me he was afraid my neighbors would call the police on him. My neighborhood was all white!

    What most of the country fail to realize is how alienated young black men feel from time to time. My ex told me that throughout his life he had been suspected of being a no good hoodlum that he just became used to it. Whenever he's in a place where he notices not too many people of color are around, he starts getting paranoid.

    TM was probably feeling the same way when he was being followed by some creeper (we now know that it was GZ).

    Both sides have little to agree on, but they do agree on the following. GZ admitted that he was following TM. At one point, TM took off running and GZ pursued. TM then stopped, turned and demanded why GZ was following him. What happened after was where the stories split off.

    That actually sounds a lot to me like TM was just sick and tired of being suspected a hoodlum simply because he was black. A child walking home after buying iced tea for himself and skittles for his little brother got shot on the way. I'm genuinely sad.

    At the same time, I simply don't believe we should crucify GZ. Because the freakin' prosecution decided to aim for 2nd degree murder, I am forced to side with the defense on this one. 2nd degree murder is excessive. It should have been involuntary manslaughter.

    I simply don't believe GZ ever intended to kill another human being. I think he was practicing to be a cop, which he had tried to become for many years. GZ started the whole mess, but what resulted was outside both his and TM's control.

    All that having been said, what the defense did to Rachel Jeantel was disgusting. The defense lawyer purposefully kept her on the stand for hours and hours making her reveal to the world her way of talking. Considering the jury is mostly white, I'm convinced the defense was trying to bring out the inner, hidden, and latent racist attitude of the jury.

    I'm very conflicted on this case.

  6. #6
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post

    Both sides have little to agree on, but they do agree on the following. GZ admitted that he was following TM. At one point, TM took off running and GZ pursued. TM then stopped, turned and demanded why GZ was following him. What happened after was where the stories split off.


    All that having been said, what the defense did to Rachel Jeantel was disgusting. The defense lawyer purposefully kept her on the stand for hours and hours making her reveal to the world her way of talking. Considering the jury is mostly white, I'm convinced the defense was trying to bring out the inner, hidden, and latent racist attitude of the jury.



    There is not one shred of evidence, it hasn't even been suggested, that Martin ran and Zimmerman gave chase. Zimmerman followed Martin, there's a big difference between chased and followed.

    The defence kept Jeanteal on the stand to expose her for the lier that she is. If her attitude, personality, and general demeanour put off the jury, so be it.

    As to the "latent racist attitude", who called who a "cracker"? The only evidence of racist epithets are in regards to Martin. The press has tried to paint Zimmerman as a racist but has fallen flat, even after they manipulated 911 calls.



    The trial isn't over, but so far it seems Martin was angry that Zimmerman was following him, and initiated the physical confrontation resulting in his own death.

  7. #7
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    She was a horrible witness. Her communication skills are non-existent, she's rude, disrespectful, and dishonest, basically a train wreck on the stand. The prosecution has nothing to hang their collective hats on. Every prosecution witness has clearly presented a case of reasonable doubt.
    I think that is exactly what makes her completely genuine.


    Additionally, if you are the neighborhood watch when you approach someone and they ask who are you, why are you following me? Wouldn't you state clearly you are the neighborhood watch? Finally, if the police dispatch directed you not to follow the person then why would you do so? Trayvon MIGHT have stated his father lived there and he was going to his home. Then Zimmerman would be speaking to a guest of a resident and have zero reason to be neighborhood watching.

    George Zimmerman was looking for conflict and he found it. Now I hope the justice system funds him as well. They call it neighborhood watch for a reason. The same reason it is not referred to as neighborhood vigilantes.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  8. #8
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    There is not one shred of evidence, it hasn't even been suggested, that Martin ran and Zimmerman gave chase. Zimmerman followed Martin, there's a big difference between chased and followed.
    Chase, follow, whatever. At one point everyone agreed that TM ran off. GZ admitted on the 911 call he made that he was "following" TM. Happy?

    The defence kept Jeanteal on the stand to expose her for the lier that she is. If her attitude, personality, and general demeanour put off the jury, so be it.
    Well, they confirmed that she lied about 2 things during the investigation: her age and the reason why she didn't go to TM's funeral. How does this invalidate the main core of her story?

    As to the "latent racist attitude", who called who a "cracker"? The only evidence of racist epithets are in regards to Martin. The press has tried to paint Zimmerman as a racist but has fallen flat, even after they manipulated 911 calls.
    Here's the thing. Just because a politically incorrect word was used doesn't mean it was used in a racist manner. First of all, the word cracker isn't even offensive. It reminds white people of a time when they used to own land and people. How is that even come close to being offensive?

    Secondly, different people from different backgrounds talk differently. Trying to superimpose your cultural political correctness on the way other people of other backgrounds talk is called ethnocentric. English is Rachel Jeantel's 3rd language.

    Having been born and raised in a completely different country and completely different culture and language, I saw this as little better than when the white kids at school made fun of my broken English when I first came here. They would purposely ask me to say something and then laugh about it. Heck, I'm a 30 year old adult and there are still white adults trying to trap me into saying something funny so they could laugh by asking me "how do you say this in your language, how do you say that in your language?"

    Watching the testimony of RJ was kinda painful to me, because it looked exactly like my experiences dealing with ethnocentric white folks.

    That said, her testimony was genuine. She didn't try to rose it up like most people would have done.

    The trial isn't over, but so far it seems Martin was angry that Zimmerman was following him, and initiated the physical confrontation resulting in his own death.
    Says the guy who shot him. You started out your post with there's no evidence for this, there's no evidence for that, and presented a "fact" that came straight from the guy who shot the gun. TM isn't here to defend himself, so I guess you have a valid point there.

    That said, even if TM initiated the physical contact, it was over self defense. You're a 130lb kid who just bought iced tea and skittles for your little brother and you're on your way back to your dad's place. There's some creep that is over 200lb chasing following you. TM was within his right to fight back (stand your ground law).

    Again, I say go for manslaughter, put him on probation, and call it a day.
    Last edited by ZombieKiller; July 1st, 2013 at 11:18 AM.

  9. #9
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Chase, follow, whatever. At one point everyone agreed that TM ran off. GZ admitted on the 911 call he made that he was "following" TM. Happy?


    Well, they confirmed that she lied about 2 things during the investigation: her age and the reason why she didn't go to TM's funeral. How does this invalidate the main core of her story?


    Here's the thing. Just because a politically incorrect word was used doesn't mean it was used in a racist manner. First of all, the word cracker isn't even offensive. It reminds white people of a time when they used to own land and people. How is that even come close to being offensive?

    Secondly, different people from different backgrounds talk differently. Trying to superimpose your cultural political correctness on the way other people of other backgrounds talk is called ethnocentric. English is Rachel Jeantel's 3rd language.

    Having been born and raised in a completely different country and completely different culture and language, I saw this as little better than when the white kids at school made fun of my broken English when I first came here. They would purposely ask me to say something and then laugh about it. Heck, I'm a 30 year old adult and there are still white adults trying to trap me into saying something funny so they could laugh by asking me "how do you say this in your language, how do you say that in your language?"

    Watching the testimony of RJ was kinda painful to me, because it looked exactly like my experiences dealing with ethnocentric white folks.

    That said, her testimony was genuine. She didn't try to rose it up like most people would have done.


    Says the guy who shot him. You started out your post with there's no evidence for this, there's no evidence for that, and presented a "fact" that came straight from the guy who shot the gun. TM isn't here to defend himself, so I guess you have a valid point there.

    That said, even if TM initiated the physical contact, it was over self defense. You're a 130lb kid who just bought iced tea and skittles for your little brother and you're on your way back to your dad's place. There's some creep that is over 200lb chasing following you. TM was within his right to fight back (stand your ground law).

    Again, I say go for manslaughter, put him on probation, and call it a day.

    Are you actually following the trial, or getting info from 3rd party sources?

    The fact that Jeanteal lied, regardless of how many times, undercuts her entire testimony.

    "cracker isn't even offensive" really? According to who? Are you saying you can determine whether or not someone else has the right to be offended?

    "having been born in a completely different country" Who? Jeanteal was born and raised in Miami, Fla. English is not her 3rd language.

    What was he (TM) defending himself from? Being followed? I am unaware of assault being a reasonable defence to being followed.

    Zimmermans videotaped (by the police) re-enactment seems truthful. The supposed conversation between them is claimed to be;
    Zimmerman lost eyesight of him only to find he had walked past TM in the dark.
    Supposedly TM said "what's your problem?". Zimmerman said "I don't have a problem", and Martin said "you do now", and attacked him. Is this 100% true? I don't know, I wasn't there, but it seems reasonable.

  10. #10

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    What does "cracker" mean?

  11. #11
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Are you actually following the trial, or getting info from 3rd party sources?
    Both, actually.

    The fact that Jeanteal lied, regardless of how many times, undercuts her entire testimony.
    This sounds nice and all on paper. But here's the thing. Everyone lies about little things at one point or another. Whoever that says he's never lied before is a damn liar. Lying about her age (which most women do this as far as I know) and lying about the reason why she did not go to the funeral had nothing to do with this case.

    "cracker isn't even offensive" really? According to who? Are you saying you can determine whether or not someone else has the right to be offended?
    Not what I'm saying at all. You can be offended if I call you honey, greeny, ducky, baby, etc. all you want. I can't control what offends you. I'm telling you right now. To us minority folks, the word cracker aren't always used with the intention to offend. Might as well call white people "masters".

    "having been born in a completely different country" Who? Jeanteal was born and raised in Miami, Fla. English is not her 3rd language.
    Sorry, I wasn't being clear on this. I was born and raised in another country. The USA is a big-ass country. Not everyone within this country speak the same dialect or accent as you. I have known some people who were born and raise here in this country but most people can't understand a thing they say.

    RJ came from a Hatian background. in these tight knit communities, they don't always talk the way you do.

    What was he (TM) defending himself from? Being followed? I am unaware of assault being a reasonable defence to being followed.
    Well, if you put it that way, yes. But try to think of the situation, also. You're a teenager who's 130 lb or so. You notice a creeper that's at least twice your size following you in the dark. You take off and he's still there. Was this stranger following you in the dark just to say hello?

    Zimmermans videotaped (by the police) re-enactment seems truthful. The supposed conversation between them is claimed to be;
    Zimmerman lost eyesight of him only to find he had walked past TM in the dark.
    Supposedly TM said "what's your problem?". Zimmerman said "I don't have a problem", and Martin said "you do now", and attacked him. Is this 100% true? I don't know, I wasn't there, but it seems reasonable.
    Again, TM is dead. GZ and you can claim anything you want.

    A couple years ago, my parents were in the other side of the country visiting relatives. They got into a car crash. From what my parents told me (and I trust them), the other guy cut off my dad in a crowded highway and caused the crash. My parents didn't speak a word of English, so the cop that was on the scene pinned the whole thing on my dad. He got one side of the story and that was good enough for him.

    Now, instead of being unable to communicate clearly in English, we have someone that can't communicate at all because he's dead. Similar situations. That's why I said I can relate to the people involved in this case.

    Added by edit.

    Regarding the language barrier (even among Americans), go into some ghetto areas of Chicago and try to have a conversation with those people there. I swear, sometimes they don't even sound like they're speaking in English.
    Last edited by ZombieKiller; July 1st, 2013 at 01:25 PM.

  12. #12
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    What does "cracker" mean?


    Not too long ago, this word was used to describe someone of the position of power. Of course the world had to get all politically correct and hypersensitive.

  13. #13
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The witness is 19 and a Junior in high school--she has serious learning disabilities---she can not read very well and can only read printed words not script---the defense lawyer was taking full advantage of this---let's go easy on her.

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    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    A simple crime like this should be dealt with quickly and no need to waste so much money.
    Maybe 20 years jail for the crime and everyone should move on.


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  15. #15
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    A simple crime like this should be dealt with quickly and no need to waste so much money.
    Maybe 20 years jail for the crime and everyone should move on.
    20 years? This is a bit excessive don't you think? Just put him on probation.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The only thing I've heard was someone in the media observing the fact that George Zimmerman is now a clean shaven fat guy, than the lean five oclock shadow menace as pictured during his arraignment some while ago.

    Before


    Recently



    He looks like Lou Costello



  17. #17
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    She was a horrible witness. Her communication skills are non-existent, she's rude, disrespectful, and dishonest, basically a train wreck on the stand. The prosecution has nothing to hang their collective hats on. Every prosecution witness has clearly presented a case of reasonable doubt.
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/201...on_martin.html

  18. #18
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    "Us minority folk"?.........I am one of "us minority folk". You apparently believe me to be White. Yours is a prejudicial response, just like George Zimmerman. Glass houses.

    When Zimmerman followed Martin he did so because of prejudice. He prejudged that a Black man, unknown to him, walking through his gated neighbourhood, was probably up to no good. Prejudice is a ugly mind set, but it's not a crime.

    As to the lieing, people do it all the time, agreed, big lies and little lies, but lies under oath are different...Ask Martha Stewart.

    Zimmerman claims he was attacked. No prosecution witness, so far has refuted that claim, quite to the contrary. Most of the prosecution witnesses have said he's being truthful.

    The core of the criminal complaint is the shooting. IF, Zimmerman was being assaulted when he fired the shot, he's within the confines of the law, a stupid law yes, but still the law.

    It seems that people don't care what the facts are, they want him prosecuted for being a prejudiced jerk.

  19. #19
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    "Us minority folk"?.........I am one of "us minority folk". You apparently believe me to be White. Yours is a prejudicial response, just like George Zimmerman. Glass houses.
    My apologies. My previous point still stands.

    When Zimmerman followed Martin he did so because of prejudice. He prejudged that a Black man, unknown to him, walking through his gated neighbourhood, was probably up to no good. Prejudice is a ugly mind set, but it's not a crime.
    Actually, to be honest with you I don't even think he was profiling TM. Nothing I've seen so far would lead me to believe that GZ was out specifically looking for black men to follow.

    As to the lieing, people do it all the time, agreed, big lies and little lies, but lies under oath are different...Ask Martha Stewart.
    As I understand it, the two things that she lied about she lied to investigators. She wasn't under oath. And those 2 things have little relevance to this case.

    You along with many other people have fallen victim to a red herring. The girl was questioned by investigators to which she told them the truth except for 2 things, her age and her reason for not going to TM's funeral. The first is a natural lie. Everyone does this. Given her mental state, I think it was just natural to her to lie about her age if she was used to it. The lie about the funeral was also understandable. Whatever her reason for not attending the funeral, it was personal and had absolutely nothing to do with this case.

    And about her not mentioning that TM said "get away get away" to the family, I can understand this.

    When my friend was shot to death a number of years ago, I was a prime witness to what happened. There were certain details that I did not mention when they first questioned me. After the initial shock, I finally came around to telling these missing details. No, I did not intentionally leave them out. I did not consciously make the decision to leave those details out. It just happened.

    It's all fine and all when you're a spectator and you can see everything clearly. It's not so clearly for those involved. Trust me on that.

    Zimmerman claims he was attacked. No prosecution witness, so far has refuted that claim, quite to the contrary. Most of the prosecution witnesses have said he's being truthful.
    Except for that woman that contradicted it on her 911 call.

    The core of the criminal complaint is the shooting. IF, Zimmerman was being assaulted when he fired the shot, he's within the confines of the law, a stupid law yes, but still the law.
    Here's the thing. Law or not, it's both common sense and human morality that dictates when to use deadly force and when not to use deadly force. If I were to slap you on the face, you do not have the right (legally and morally) to take out your gun and shoot me in the chest.

    It seems that people don't care what the facts are, they want him prosecuted for being a prejudiced jerk.
    No disagreement here. Like I said from the beginning, they really should have charged him with involuntary manslaughter and put him on probation for half a year.

    I've said this in other threads. Everyone underreacted when this first happened. TM was marked as John Doe for 3 days while his parents were searching for their missing son. If no one said anything, they probably would have just left it like that forever. But the story hit the mainstream media, and people (the irrational ones) demanded blood. So, they went from underreaction to overreaction and charged him with 2nd degree murder. Shooting for too high there.

    I absolutely do not believe he had any intention of killing TM. And I absolutely do not believe they will get a conviction.

    What happened to good ole common sense? What happened to the common sense for them to not leave TM a John Doe for 3 days? What happened to the common sense for them to not automatically label this as a stand your ground case and not do anything about it? What happened to common sense that would have told them not to aim for 2nd degree murder charge?

    Everyone lost in this case because some people wanted vengeance more than justice.

    And I still don't agree with how you guys portray RJ. She obviously has a severe learning disability as well as cultural/language barrier. For an educated man like that lawyer to take advantage of that in order to bring out latent bigotry from the jury is disgusting.
    Last edited by ZombieKiller; July 1st, 2013 at 03:13 PM.

  20. #20
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    20 years? This is a bit excessive don't you think? Just put him on probation.
    umm he followed the guy and gunned him down in cold blood.
    Simple case. 20 years still stand unless he is very remorseful.


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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Bottom Line:

    This is what happens when two hot-heads clash and one has a gun. One ends up dead.
    If they both had guns they'd both be dead.
    If neither had a gun we wouldn't be discussing it.


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    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cityboy-stl View Post
    Bottom Line:

    This is what happens when two hot-heads clash and one has a gun. One ends up dead.
    If they both had guns they'd both be dead.
    If neither had a gun we wouldn't be discussing it.
    According to what i have read,
    the one with a gun was following/stalking the other guy


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    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    umm he followed the guy and gunned him down in cold blood.
    Simple case. 20 years still stand unless he is very remorseful.


    Do you know what "in cold blood" means?

    You don't seem too bright.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Consider that this was almost a COLD CASE, before it finally got noticed. I think it was two or three months after the fact, before anybody outside of central Florida took notice.

    I have this ugly feeling that he's going to end up walking away from all of this, entirely free. Though, at the very least, if that happens, it happens only after he's been "run through the wringer" a few times. (sorry, rather archaic saying nowadays...)
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cityboy-stl View Post
    Bottom Line:

    This is what happens when two hot-heads clash and one has a gun. One ends up dead.
    If they both had guns they'd both be dead.
    If neither had a gun we wouldn't be discussing it.
    Uh, no. This is what happens when someone assumes he has more power than he does, gets into a fight that he could have avoided and was advised not to get into, and then ends up shooting that person and is now trying to say he felt "threatened".

    I would think that this case and waste of life was wholly avoidable if the man had just followed SIMPLE instructions, but apparently some people seem to think character assassination will absolve the man of his many critical errors.

    And should that happen, hell help Central Florida.
    "As anarchism rears its face,

    They are answered by an iron fist..."

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    My opinion on this issue is that Trayvon Martin feels he is being stalked by a strange man. The man is not wearing a police uniform, and for all that Trayvon knows, could be a mugger. In terror, Trayvon tries to defend himself and gets killed. If George Zimmerman didn't take it upon himself to play "Policeman" and stalk this poor guy, none of this would have happened. I think George will be found guilty.

  27. #27
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by eddielee View Post
    My opinion on this issue is that Trayvon Martin feels he is being stalked by a strange man. The man is not wearing a police uniform, and for all that Trayvon knows, could be a mugger. In terror, Trayvon tries to defend himself and gets killed. If George Zimmerman didn't take it upon himself to play "Policeman" and stalk this poor guy, none of this would have happened. I think George will be found guilty.
    If it had been a charge of involuntary manslaughter, I would have hoped for him to be found guilty. But since it's 2nd degree murder charge, I sincerely hope he goes free. Life in prison is not an appropriate justice for this case.

  28. #28
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    If it had been a charge of involuntary manslaughter, I would have hoped for him to be found guilty. But since it's 2nd degree murder charge, I sincerely hope he goes free. Life in prison is not an appropriate justice for this case.
    Involuntary manslaughter requires that you didn't intend to do the thing that led to the other person's death. So if the gun had gone off without intent but through Z's negligence, that would justify involuntary manslaughter.

    He doesn't deny pulling the trigger on purpose. That's voluntary manslaughter, even if he didn't intend Martin's death. IANAL; TINLA

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eddielee View Post
    My opinion on this issue is that Trayvon Martin feels he is being stalked by a strange man. The man is not wearing a police uniform, and for all that Trayvon knows, could be a mugger. In terror, Trayvon tries to defend himself and gets killed. If George Zimmerman didn't take it upon himself to play "Policeman" and stalk this poor guy, none of this would have happened. I think George will be found guilty.
    I share your assessment of the situation but not your optimism regarding justice.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  29. #29
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Involuntary manslaughter requires that you didn't intend to do the thing that led to the other person's death. So if the gun had gone off without intent but through Z's negligence, that would justify involuntary manslaughter.

    He doesn't deny pulling the trigger on purpose. That's voluntary manslaughter, even if he didn't intend Martin's death. IANAL; TINLA
    Voluntary manslaughter carries a sentence of about 25 years. I'm sorry, but this seems a bit excessive. Just put him on probation.

  30. #30
    Lest We Forget
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ That's quite the message: shoot someone dead and get probation.

    This way, even if Zimmerman is found 'not guilty', it's sending the message that, if you shoot someone dead, we're going to make you prove that you felt your life was in danger.

  31. #31
    huh?
    FPNY's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Zimmerman stalked and killed Trayvon, he said it on a taped police line. He said, this guy is looking for trouble, he's acting suspiciously, I'm tired of these assholes getting away. He made several very telling statements on taped lines. he was told to stop following him, yet he didn't. He pursued and scared Trayvon to the point he felt he needed to hide from Zimmerman, Trayvon confronted him, Zimmerman attacked, Trayvon fought back and Zimmerman shot and killed him. Seems at one point Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman hitting him and that's how he got banged up.
    FPNY
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  32. #32
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by FPNY View Post
    Zimmerman stalked and killed Trayvon, he said it on a taped police line. He said, this guy is looking for trouble, he's acting suspiciously, I'm tired of these assholes getting away. He made several very telling statements on taped lines. he was told to stop following him, yet he didn't. He pursued and scared Trayvon to the point he felt he needed to hide from Zimmerman, Trayvon confronted him, Zimmerman attacked, Trayvon fought back and Zimmerman shot and killed him. Seems at one point Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman hitting him and that's how he got banged up.
    Here's the thing. Yes, he got marks on his head, but they were scrapes. I really don't want to sound judgmental, but those scrapes don't look like a life and death struggle.

  33. #33
    Happy Festivus! Ellybelly909's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Today was very interesting in court. The prosecution is about to prove that Zimmerman lied about knowledge of Florida's Stand Your Ground policy/law. In a very telling interview with Sean Hannity in 2012, GZ said he had no knowledge of such a law as of the night of the murder. He is a cop wannabe and took classes that discussed Stand Your Ground and allegedly wrote a paper about them -- before the murder.

    If you watch this interview on YouTube, it's stunning how little remorse GZ has. He actually said that what happened was "God's will." He also stated that he did NOT regret going after Trayvon Martin AND that he did NOT regret having a gun that fateful night.

    The all female jury will hopefully find this tool guilty.
    Last edited by Ellybelly909; July 2nd, 2013 at 07:43 PM.
    "Masturbation, at least it's sex with someone I love!"

  34. #34
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Here's an opinion piece about Rachel Jeantel's court performance.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcel...b_3537226.html

    I can relate. I'm a 30 year old guy who came to the US when I was 10. There are still English words that I struggle to say correctly. These sounds most people would learn from their parents at a very young age. I missed out on that.

    Like I said, it could have been me on the stand while the very articulate and smart lawyer make fun of how I talk. Shame on that lawyer for exploiting Rachel's weakness. And shame on the rest of the world for falling for what the lawyer intended.

  35. #35
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I just came across this. I must say this is disturbing, if West's daughter was referring to what I think she was referring to.

    http://urbanbellemag.com/2013/07/don...ntroversy.html

  36. #36
    huh?
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Maybe Trayvon was standing his ground and Zimmerman shot him. I think 2nd degree murder is the right charge and GZ, as we are now calling him, should be found guilty. I really think GZ wanted to shoot someone, anyone. He thought it would make him a neighborhood hero.
    FPNY
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  37. #37
    JUB Addict nycguydowntown's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Voluntary manslaughter carries a sentence of about 25 years. I'm sorry, but this seems a bit excessive. Just put him on probation.
    Involuntary manslaughter would get him less time but in Florida--because he killed a 17 year old kid---(under 18 years old) if convicted he can get 30 years.

  38. #38

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    If the jury understands its duty to find not guilty in the absence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it will not convict him. The facts simply do not amount to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There is a better than reasonable probability that he shot in self defense.

  39. #39
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    There is a better than reasonable probability that he shot in self defense.
    Too bad that the victim isn't alive to offer his version. The jury will hear Zimmerman's version of the events, but Tayvon's version is pure conjecture. The only option left to the prosecution is to discredit Zimmerman's testimony. That's the problem with cases such as this. The victims are never available to defend themselves.

  40. #40
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Voluntary manslaughter carries a sentence of about 25 years. I'm sorry, but this seems a bit excessive. Just put him on probation.
    So you're basing your theory of which crime applies on the available sentence? There are two things wrong with that: 1. He did whichever one he did, and the fact that it was a black boy doesn't actually change what crime it is. 2. You do know that judges have discretion in sentencing, right? They can evaluate mitigating factors, if any, and shorten the sentence accordingly.

    Personally I wish the judge were a black woman with a teenage son.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  41. #41
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellybelly909 View Post
    If you watch this interview on YouTube, it's stunning how little remorse GZ has. He actually said that what happened was "God's will." He also stated that he did NOT regret going after Trayvon Martin AND that he did NOT regret having a gun that fateful night.
    I wonder if he'll think a long prison sentence is "God's will" too. Let's be sure and tell him it is if he gets one.

    It wasn't God's fucking will. It was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S CHOICES that led to the death of Trayvon Martin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellybelly909 View Post
    The all female jury will hopefully find this tool guilty.
    Are any of them black? With teenage sons? I hope so.

    Quote Originally Posted by nycguydowntown View Post
    Involuntary manslaughter would get him less time but in Florida--because he killed a 17 year old kid---(under 18 years old) if convicted he can get 30 years.
    I didn't know that. I'm glad to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If the jury understands its duty to find not guilty in the absence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it will not convict him. The facts simply do not amount to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There is a better than reasonable probability that he shot in self defense.
    I don't agree. And I think the kind of aggressive harassment, terrorizing, and provocation he subjected Martin to should undermine any claim of self-defense. It depends on the judge's instructions to the jury...who will decide what conclusion the facts support, not you or me.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  42. #42
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The background about this case still bothers me. What if TM was my nephew?

    (1) During a football halftime, TM went to a corner store to buy ice tea and skittles for his little brother.

    (2) On his way home, he noticed a creepy ass cracker stalking him.

    (3) He tells his friend Rachel Jeantel on the phone that there's some creepy ass cracker stalking him.

    (4) He gets shot in a confrontation with the stalker.

    (5) Stalker claimed self defense to the cops.

    (6) TM's body was labeled as John Doe for 3 days while his parents searched for their missing son.

    (7) Finally, someone put 2 and 2 together to realize the John Doe they had all along was the missing teenager.

    (8) Cops decided to do nothing about this case. Never interviewed the friend of TM that was the last person to speak with him.

    (9) Several months later, the story hits the national news and the state decided to do something about it.

    Imagine if this was your teenage son, your teenage nephew, or even your teenage brother. He did not do a single thing wrong that night.

    (1) He went out to a corner store to get ice tea and skittles for his little brother. Nothing wrong there.

    (2) He walked home. Nothing wrong there.

    (3) He confronted a stalker that's been stalking him. Nothing wrong there.

    (4) He fought with the stalker. Even if he instigated the physical contact, he was defending himself. People keep saying he should have run away. News flash, not everyone reacts to a threat the same way. Some people run away, some people fight back. Nothing wrong there.

    Having said that, 2nd degree murder charge is a bit excessive. What the hell are they thinking? It's like nobody involved has any common sense.

  43. #43
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    So you're basing your theory of which crime applies on the available sentence? There are two things wrong with that: 1. He did whichever one he did, and the fact that it was a black boy doesn't actually change what crime it is. 2. You do know that judges have discretion in sentencing, right? They can evaluate mitigating factors, if any, and shorten the sentence accordingly.

    Personally I wish the judge were a black woman with a teenage son.
    I don't know law. I'm not a lawyer. All I know is 25 years is a bit excessive in this case. The man made some poor choices that led to the death of an innocent teenager just a couple blocks from his waiting father and little brother. All of us make poor choices at some point. Sometimes we get lucky and the poor choices don't matter. Sometimes they do . And sometimes they have great consequences.

    Ok, so some people don't think probation is enough. Then put him in jail for a couple years. But no more than that. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance. I don't believe GZ is a danger to society after this point.

  44. #44
    JUB Addict loveguys72's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Based on what I've heard and seen to date, my opinion hasn't changed from when this story broke: Zimmerman is guilty of voluntary manslaughter. He willfully and knowingly engaged in reckless conduct which directly resulted in the death of another. The only reason second degree murder is a stretch is that there is question regarding Zimmerman's intent. Did he pursue Martin with the intent to kill him? The prosecution knows this, which is why the top count is second degree murder with a lesser included charge of voluntary manslaughter. The prosecution fully expects the jury will be uncomfortable with the top count, and so will go for the lesser charge.

  45. #45

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ I wonder how they chose the jury? I've seen cases where choosing the jurors takes longer than the case itself.

  46. #46
    Respira MissAnne's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Well, Ive been watching the trial everyday. I have HLN on as I type this. Its very important to me.
    " For all there is to feel, let it be felt"
    ― Emeli Sande

  47. #47
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by MissAnne View Post
    Well, Ive been watching the trial everyday. I have HLN on as I type this. Its very important to me.
    Why is it important to you?

  48. #48

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ Yes. Why?

  49. #49
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Personally I wish the judge were a black woman with a teenage son.
    Not sure what happened to "he did whichever one he did."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  50. #50
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    He will walk, reasonable doubt.

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