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  1. #101
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    He will walk, reasonable doubt.

  2. #102
    JUB Addict Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by loveguys72 View Post
    Based on what I've heard and seen to date, my opinion hasn't changed from when this story broke: Zimmerman is guilty of voluntary manslaughter. He willfully and knowingly engaged in reckless conduct which directly resulted in the death of another. The only reason second degree murder is a stretch is that there is question regarding Zimmerman's intent. Did he pursue Martin with the intent to kill him? The prosecution knows this, which is why the top count is second degree murder with a lesser included charge of voluntary manslaughter. The prosecution fully expects the jury will be uncomfortable with the top count, and so will go for the lesser charge.
    Well, if he was stalking him with the intention of killing him, that would be FIRST-degree murder (because of the premeditation). That's pretty clearly not what happened. Very few people think GZ left his house that evening saying "I'm-a gonna kill me a black teen tonight!" (Though actually IIUC (and IANAL) premeditation can be a few seconds of "I'm gonna kill you!" obviously the prosecution didn't believe that or didn't think they could make it stick.) Second-degree murder, again IIUC, is when you have a sudden impulse to kill and do so. Manslaughter is when you don't have the intent to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Not sure what happened to "he did whichever one he did."
    That was about deciding which crime definition applies. The judge is about the instructions to the jury and so on. I wish the judge were someone who absolutely wouldn't give GZ a pass because after all it was only a black kid, which I don't at all trust as things stand.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  3. #103
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ^ I wonder how they chose the jury? I've seen cases where choosing the jurors takes longer than the case itself.
    I was very surprised how quickly that process went.
    "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." -The Scarecrow, THE WIZARD OF OZ, 1939

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  4. #104
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    whoever kept prank calling the skype testimony needs to grow the fuck up.

    that is some kindergarten crap for real.

    I really hope their IP's are masked and they get reprimanded.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The only thing I know for a fact is that George got fat afterwards and changed his testimony repeatedly throughout the investigation. We all know that's he's guilty, but in the great state of Florida he'll probably be extolled as being a hero ... racist bastard!

  6. #106
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    ....Watching the cross examination today was painful....
    I think one can say that about most trials; I would rather stick needles in myself than be selected for the enfuriating, mind-numbing, fake, humiliating Kafka-esque ordeal of a jury trial.
    .

  7. #107
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The fact that Jeanteal lied, regardless of how many times, undercuts her entire testimony.
    Oh, so you want to compare notes then?

    Here we go then...

    THINGS THAT ZIMMERMAN LIED ABOUT:

    When he was first grilled by the police right after the shooting he, claimed that Trayvon hid in the bushes. When they went to the scene later, there were no bushes.

    When Zimmerman was up for bail, he lied about having a passport and how much money he really had. He used his wife to try to hide them from the judge.

    When asked in an interview if he knew anything about the Stand Your Ground law, he said no. His Criminal Justice professor testified that it was a major issue taught in the class Zimmerman attended.

    Oh yes, Zimmerman is the epitome of honesty, indeed!

  8. #108
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Here's an opinion piece about Rachel Jeantel's court performance.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcel...b_3537226.html

    I can relate. I'm a 30 year old guy who came to the US when I was 10. There are still English words that I struggle to say correctly. These sounds most people would learn from their parents at a very young age. I missed out on that.

    Like I said, it could have been me on the stand while the very articulate and smart lawyer make fun of how I talk. Shame on that lawyer for exploiting Rachel's weakness. And shame on the rest of the world for falling for what the lawyer intended.
    My grandmother was born in Texas, but Spanish was her first language, and was picking cotton and tomatoes in the fields instead of going to school so her family could eat during the Depression. Even though she learned English and got her GED later on, there's still some words that are hard for her to pronounce or understand. This might make some people think she's an idiot, but she is anything but. She raised 16 kids, worked for the NYC Police Dept, and was a Park Ranger in Florida.

    Not everyone born in America are taught English first, or primarily speak English.

  9. #109
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Oh, so you want to compare notes then?

    Here we go then...

    THINGS THAT ZIMMERMAN LIED ABOUT:

    When he was first grilled by the police right after the shooting he, claimed that Trayvon hid in the bushes. When they went to the scene later, there were no bushes.

    When Zimmerman was up for bail, he lied about having a passport and how much money he really had. He used his wife to try to hide them from the judge.

    When asked in an interview if he knew anything about the Stand Your Ground law, he said no. His Criminal Justice professor testified that it was a major issue taught in the class Zimmerman attended.

    Oh yes, Zimmerman is the epitome of honesty, indeed!


    Well first off, there were bushes, and Trayvon was standing/hiding in them, as the lead detective for the prosecution testified.

    Additionally, I never said Zimmerman was the "epitome of honesty", but he has not lied on the stand under oath or in a sworn deposition.

    I have never said, nor do I believe, Zimmerman is a good guy. The question is, did he break the law? The only legal violation he's been charged with is the shooting. Was it in self defence? Did Martin attack him? Was he genuinely in fear for his life (the everyman standard)?

    The standard for conviction is "BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt", the prosecution has not met that threshold.

  10. #110
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The standard for conviction is "BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt", the prosecution has not met that threshold.
    That is the standard for any trial by jury. However, you're not on the jury, so you can't see into their minds to know what they're thinking. Some juries are smart enough to see through the lies and find the truth. So far, the only truth is Zimmerman's, and we have only his word for it.

    To you, reasonable doubt is obvious, but, to the jury, they may be thinking that it's reasonable to believe that Zimmerman is full of shit and a racists who profiled a young man and taunted him into a confrontation where he shot him to death.
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

  11. #111
    JUB Addict Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Here's an article listing many of GZ's lies: http://www.legalspeaks.com/2013/07/5...zimmermantrial

    TM didn't ambush him from the bushes, or bang his head on the ground multiple times. GZ told the cop at the time that it wasn't HIM calling for help. He knew all about Stand Your Ground laws. It goes on. The guy's a lying sack of shit.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  12. #112
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    The scrapes on GZ's head were minor and do not at all show a life and death struggle. It would, however, indicate that TM was fighting back to something. That and he had 100+ pounds on TM.
    The prosecution hasn't proven anything, they've asserted alot.
    How many times does a person need to have their head impacted on concrete before they can legitimately feel in fear for their life?
    Martin weighed 158 pounds, Zimmerman weighed 200 pounds, that is not a difference of 100+ pounds, as you keep repeating. It's 42.

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    GZ told the cop at the time that it wasn't HIM calling for help. He knew all about Stand Your Ground laws. It goes on. The guy's a lying sack of shit.
    Zimmerman told the lead detective the screams "didn't even sound like me", not that it wasn't him screaming.

    I have not, and am not, saying Zimmerman is someone worthy of praise or admiration.

    His contention is that he shot Martin because he was in fear for his life. The prosecution has done nothing to disprove that assertion.
    He claims he was attacked by Martin. There is no legal justification for attacking someone for following you.

    Unless you believe Zimmerman inflicted his own injuries, you have to believe Martin caused them, because they were the only people there.

    No matter how minor the injuries were, or weren’t, have no bearing on the case. The standard is did he (Zimmerman) believe his life was in danger. Besides which, physical injuries are not required to claim self defence, simply believing your life is in danger is the legal threshold.

    Apparently in this, like many other trials, racial considerations trump facts and the rule of law.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 5th, 2013 at 02:46 PM.

  13. #113
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Here's an article listing many of GZ's lies: http://www.legalspeaks.com/2013/07/5...zimmermantrial
    Well worth the time to read. There is no DNA evidence to support his 'story', and I loved the bit about his injuries requiring only a band-aid.

    The whole story of what happened on February 26, 2012 will never be known as Trayvon Martin did not live to tell his version while Zimmerman’s version changes constantly depending on to whom he is telling it and when he tells it. In the final analysis, those Zimmerman lies and inconsistencies add up and may end up being huge in the eyes of the all women jury and land Zimmerman in jail for life to ponder them.
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

  14. #114
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Zimmerman does not claim Martin provoked the attack, he claims Martin attacked him. And there is no evidence to the contrary. Anything else is speculation.
    The defence has so far eliminated 2nd degree murder from the realm of possibility, but the lesser included charge of manslaughter is still a possibility, though I'm doubtful.



    And Yes, that is the standard now...in Florida, and a few other states. The assertion that feeling your life was in danger is reasonable grounds for a claim of self defence. It doesn’t usually work, but it is a legal answer to a charge.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 5th, 2013 at 07:45 PM.

  15. #115
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Zimmerman told the lead detective the screams "didn't even sound like me", not that it wasn't him screaming.
    Plausible...there's a very good chance that Zimmerman had never before heard himself on a RECORDING of any kind. I remember the very first time I heard a recording of myself, and I was like "IS THAT ME???" We always hear ourselves along with the tonal resonance which takes place INSIDE our bodies, as well as what is vocalized, but recordings do not capture any of the internal sound aspects, so recordings of ourselves sound very "different" to us.

    So, the case is including possibilities of findings of Second Degree Murder *AND* Manslaughter? I didn't realize that, but that would mean that if the stringent 2nd cannot be proven in court, I think manslaughter calls for much less of a requirement. Certainly there is NO question, whatsoever, that he did kill TM.
    "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." -The Scarecrow, THE WIZARD OF OZ, 1939

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  16. #116
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    ...We always hear ourselves along with the tonal resonance which takes place INSIDE our bodies, as well as what is vocalized, but recordings do not capture any of the internal sound aspects...
    That's right.
    .

  17. #117
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    So, the case is including possibilities of findings of Second Degree Murder *AND* Manslaughter? I didn't realize that, but that would mean that if the stringent 2nd cannot be proven in court, I think manslaughter calls for much less of a requirement. Certainly there is NO question, whatsoever, that he did kill TM.

    Zimmerman has never denied that he shot Martin, he says it was in self defence.

  18. #118
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Zimmerman has never denied that he shot Martin, he says it was in self defence.
    That's why I said there is "no question, whatsoever" - because even if there was some doubt that he killed TM, he readily admits (and seems to EMBRACE) it.
    "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." -The Scarecrow, THE WIZARD OF OZ, 1939

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    Make, for a man, a fire - and he'll be warm for a few hours. Set a man afire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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  19. #119
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The defence has so far eliminated 2nd degree murder from the realm of possibility
    Unless, of course, the jury has a problem trying to figure out which one of Zimmerman's stories is the most truthful one. The only thing he did right was to call 911. He did everything else knowing that he shouldn't be doing them. When you are armed and the instigator, self defence pretty-much flies out the window. If the jury sees that and accepts it, they will see that Trayvon was the one acting in self defence. He was the one standing his ground.

    No matter what story Zimmerman can make up for the events of that night, the facts are that Trayvon died at Zimmerman's hand, and it is because of Zimmerman's actions that he is dead.
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    With all at has been revealed thus far, I believe GZ had every intent on killing TM. GZ was angered by "these guys" and that "they always get away." He wanted to play cop, as he continued to follow TM despite police orders to stay put. I do believe GZ wanted to handle this on his own. Well aware of the laws, Zimmerman knew there was a chance he'd get away with the murder by claiming self-defense. Truly the best defense would have been for him to stay inside his car or be more conspicuous. The fact that he regrets nothing shows that he is a danger to society. I hope he gets the maximum penalty.

    And everyone is making a bigger deal out of his friend than need be because she's black. The lady (can't access her name) who analyzed Zimmerman's scars on stand had an air that she didn't want to be there either. You could tell she was frustrated by the defense's lack of knowledge to the science she so clearly understood. Yet media isn't going to portray this because it is easier to paint the portrait of yet another angry black woman

  21. #121
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I want:Guilty of murder 2
    Hopefully Happens:Guilty of manslaughter
    Hope doesn't happen:Not guilty
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  22. #122
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    Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    The state prosecutors in the Travon Martin case has filed a motion today with the judge to allow the jury to consider lesser charges of manslaughter and aggravated assault against Zimmerman. The defense is objecting and the judge will consider the request tomorrow. The last minute change shows the prosecution has realized what most of the experts watching the trial has been observing for days, the state has utterly failed to make its case for murder two based on the available evidence. To meet the standard for murder two under Florida law they had to prove that Zimmerman had malicious and depraved intent to kill Martin. The only real evidence they have been able to show is a couple of swear words that one expert says is more a sign of frustration than malice. With the majority of the forensic experts saying the evidence supports Zimmerman's account, they simply cannot make the murder two case beyond reasonable doubt.

    Manslaughter and assault has a much lower bar since they only need to prove that Zimmerman was negligent in his actions leading to the conflict. A case they can make with the existing evidence.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  23. #123
    JUB Addict justdra's Avatar
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    I don't think it really matters, he is either going to jail or he will go in hiding the rest of his life, it's just that simple. He can Casey Anthony can live together. All young black men in FL will be on the endangered list just be the way you look. The minute they talk back or piss off someone, they can be shot on the spot and have the person claim self defense under the stand your ground law. People keep forgetting Zimmerman would be a free man now if the media hadn't put this FL law in the spotlight.
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    I do not know the Florida law on changing charges. If I were the Judge, I would require the prosecution to drop the 2d degree charge as a condition to adding the lower charges.

  25. #125
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by justdra View Post
    I don't think it really matters, he is either going to jail or he will go in hiding the rest of his life, it's just that simple. He can Casey Anthony can live together. All young black men in FL will be on the endangered list just be the way you look. The minute they talk back or piss off someone, they can be shot on the spot and have the person claim self defense under the stand your ground law. People keep forgetting Zimmerman would be a free man now if the media hadn't put this FL law in the spotlight.
    On the other paw, the state might not have of tried to reach that bridge too far of murder 2, and thus risking losing the case, if they weren't bending a little too much to the pressure from that spotlight.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  26. #126
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I do not know the Florida law on changing charges. If I were the Judge, I would require the prosecution to drop the 2d degree charge as a condition to adding the lower charges.
    It seems Florida allows lesser charges to be considered if they are related and relevant to the case. The state even tried to include the option for murder 3 which requires the defendant to be engaged in a felony when the homicide occurred. The problem is Zimmerman wasn't engaged in any crime at the time other than the struggle and shooting itself. So they invented a silly argument that Zimmerman's struggle with Trayvon was 'child abuse'. The Judge wisely rejected that argument.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  27. #127
    Perpetual Misspeeler Vitamin's Avatar
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Yup, hopefully this little trick is what gets Zimmerman a felony and some serious jail time (manslaughter with a firearm has a 30 year prison sentence for the max in FL). This guy is a vigilante of the worst sort, and our society needs to send a clear message that we do NOT tolerate such behavior.

  28. #128
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    We live in a country of laws. At least I hope we still do. The prosecution had to prove their case -- what I saw from the prosecution was emotional. Take away who the people are and no jury would convict the man. Justice must be blind in order for our republic to continue.

  29. #129
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    It seems that the prosecution is throwing every charge possible in hopes that something will stick. That's crap!

    If the prosecution's case is that weak, then they should not have tried him in the first place.

  30. #130
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by mbamike View Post
    It seems that the prosecution is throwing every charge possible in hopes that something will stick. That's crap!

    If the prosecution's case is that weak, then they should not have tried him in the first place.
    The case for Murder 2 is practically non-existant and based entirely on a couple of swear words. The evidence just plain didn't support it. The original investigator wanted to go for manslaughter originally but the state seems to have responded to the public hysteria and overreacted in deciding what charges to bring. Now they could lose the case because of it.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  31. #131
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I'm very surprised that nobody brought up the point that somebody who has burglary or other mayhem on their mind, IS NOT likely to go to the store and buy stuff that occupies his hands. I think that most break-ins (which Zimmerman appears to have been the most worried about, with Trayvon - y'know, to get "drug money" from his fence or something??) are done by people who purposely make sure their hands are free. I doubt that Trayvon bought tea and skittles which he would have probably needed to leave behind at a crime.

    Or did I miss something? I am not glued to the testimony.

    If this question didn't get asked, WHY didn't anybody think to ask it?
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    I'm very surprised that nobody brought up the point that somebody who has burglary or other mayhem on their mind, IS NOT likely to go to the store and buy stuff that occupies his hands. I think that most break-ins (which Zimmerman appears to have been the most worried about, with Trayvon - y'know, to get "drug money" from his fence or something??) are done by people who purposely make sure their hands are free. I doubt that Trayvon bought tea and skittles which he would have probably needed to leave behind at a crime.

    Or did I miss something? I am not glued to the testimony.

    If this question didn't get asked, WHY didn't anybody think to ask it?

    I am very relieved to see that the possibility of the manslaughter charge has been included, as well as seeing that the absurd "child abuse" ruse has been removed. It's awfully and abundantly clear to me that this armed Zimmerman guy does NOT need to be out there on the streets, totin' his tool of terror.
    "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." -The Scarecrow, THE WIZARD OF OZ, 1939

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    Perpetual Misspeeler Vitamin's Avatar
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I'm very surprised that nobody brought up the point that somebody who has burglary or other mayhem on their mind, IS NOT likely to go to the store and buy stuff that occupies his hands. I think that most break-ins (which Zimmerman appears to have been the most worried about, with Trayvon - y'know, to get "drug money" from his fence or something??) are done by people who purposely make sure their hands are free. I doubt that Trayvon bought tea and skittles which he would have probably needed to leave behind at a crime.

    Or did I miss something? I am not glued to the testimony.

    If this question didn't get asked, WHY didn't anybody think to ask it?

    I am very relieved to see that the possibility of the manslaughter charge has been included, as well as seeing that the absurd "child abuse" ruse has been removed. It's awfully and abundantly clear to me that this armed Zimmerman guy does NOT need to be out there on the streets, totin' his tool of terror.
    Just to make an attempt at answering your question, what makes you think Zimmerman was aware that Martin had just bought Skittles?

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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I'm very surprised that nobody brought up the point that somebody who has burglary or other mayhem on their mind, IS NOT likely to go to the store and buy stuff that occupies his hands. I think that most break-ins (which Zimmerman appears to have been the most worried about, with Trayvon - y'know, to get "drug money" from his fence or something??) are done by people who purposely make sure their hands are free. I doubt that Trayvon bought tea and skittles which he would have probably needed to leave behind at a crime.

    Or did I miss something? I am not glued to the testimony.

    If this question didn't get asked, WHY didn't anybody think to ask it?

    I am very relieved to see that the possibility of the manslaughter charge has been included, as well as seeing that the absurd "child abuse" ruse has been removed. It's awfully and abundantly clear to me that this armed Zimmerman guy does NOT need to be out there on the streets, totin' his tool of terror.
    Zimmerman's account is that he was aware that Trayvon had something in his hand but he did not know what it was nor did he have any knowledge that the boy had just come from the store.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  35. #135
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Because racist white people never ever use logic.
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taralen View Post
    Because racist white people never ever use logic.


    Or because the skittles and Iced tea were in the front pouch of Trayvons hoodie and Zimmerman never saw them.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ Everything I've heard, is that he was carrying them (or that was implied, or something).
    "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." -The Scarecrow, THE WIZARD OF OZ, 1939

    Boss, to Sue: "Sorry, we have to downsize, and I need to lay you and Jack off." Sue to boss: "Can you just jack off? I feel like shit today."

    Make, for a man, a fire - and he'll be warm for a few hours. Set a man afire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I'm very surprised that nobody brought up the point that somebody who has burglary or other mayhem on their mind, IS NOT likely to go to the store and buy stuff that occupies his hands. I think that most break-ins (which Zimmerman appears to have been the most worried about, with Trayvon - y'know, to get "drug money" from his fence or something??) are done by people who purposely make sure their hands are free. I doubt that Trayvon bought tea and skittles which he would have probably needed to leave behind at a crime.

    Or did I miss something? I am not glued to the testimony.

    If this question didn't get asked, WHY didn't anybody think to ask it?

    I am very relieved to see that the possibility of the manslaughter charge has been included, as well as seeing that the absurd "child abuse" ruse has been removed. It's awfully and abundantly clear to me that this armed Zimmerman guy does NOT need to be out there on the streets, totin' his tool of terror.
    I think if I was sitting in the jury I'd be offended by the constant use of the word 'child' in the prosecution's closing arguments. Martin was not a child.

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    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    ^ Everything I've heard, is that he was carrying them (or that was implied, or something).


    A lot of garbage was implied about both Martin and Zimmerman. I watched the trial (gavel to gavel)on live feed, without the medias constant chattering. The only thing he was carrying in his hands was his phone.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Or because the skittles and iced tea were in the front pouch of Trayvons hoodie and Zimmerman never saw them.
    No, the point wasn't that Martin should have proved his innocence to Zimmerman by whipping out some skittles, because that was none of Zimmerman's business. The point was, if Martin was carrying items that a normal person would carry when he goes about his business, then we can be sure Martin was just going about his business, and not there to steal anything or threaten anyone. It pulls the rug out from under Zimmerman's whining that he was just facing up to a threatening person. What was Martin going to do, club him to death with some iced tea?

    And although I'm tired of hearing the same excuse that it's okay to say "white racist" as I hear when people say "drunken indian" or "lazy black" ("I didn't mean allllll indians, just this one I'm talking about in my stereotype-reinforcing story….I didn't mean allllll blacks, just the one I work with who I talk about in my stereotype-reinforcing story…I didn't mean alllll whites….. "), that doesn't change the fact that Martin is dead for no particular good reason, and Zimmerman looks to be responsible for that.
    Last edited by bankside; July 13th, 2013 at 06:22 AM.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The big question is who struck the first blow? Perhaps Zimmerman should not have followed, but that does not justify violence. If Zimmerman struck first, he is guilty of at least manslaughter. But, if Martin struck first, Zimmerman was entitled to defend himself. Not necessarily with lethal force, but he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The burden is always on the State to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 13th, 2013 at 07:12 AM.

  42. #142
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Zimmerman's account is that he was aware that Trayvon had something in his hand but he did not know what it was nor did he have any knowledge that the boy had just come from the store.
    All the more reason Zimmerman should have never got out of his car in the first place. Does he assume every black guy is carrying a weapon?

  43. #143
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MLSFreak View Post
    All the more reason Zimmerman should have never got out of his car in the first place. Does he assume every black guy is carrying a weapon?
    Neither the Prosecution or the Defense have brought race into the case. It seems to be a non-factor, though it could have been since the suspects in the recent robberies in the neighborhood were identified as young African-American males. The Prosecution's position is Zimmerman profiled Trayvon as a criminal. Zimmerman's account to police is that Trayvon was acting suspiciously, standing in the yard of a house and his behavior seemed odd. The Defense simply pointed to the fact that there had been a series of robberies in the area by young men, including bringing a woman to the stand who was inside her home with her daughter when a break-in occurred.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  44. #144
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The big question is who struck the first blow?
    But that's the whole point. We have only Zimmerman's side of the story. We will never know the truth because anything other than Zimmerman's testimony is pure speculation on the part of the prosecution. And, quite frankly, Zimmerman's versions (yes, plural!) simply don't add up to the physical evidence.

    Even if Trayvon threw the first punch, you defend yourself with a punch, not with a gun when your life isn't in danger.
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I think if I was sitting in the jury I'd be offended by the constant use of the word 'child' in the prosecution's closing arguments. Martin was not a child.
    The prosecution played heavily on the ages of the two, trying to invoke sympathy from the all women jury most likely, an understandable strategy on their part. The defense tried to counter by showing with life size cut outs that Trayvon was quite taller than Zimmerman, showing more recent photos of Trayvon and bringing in Zimmerman's martial arts teacher to testify that Zimmerman was not a very good fighter. Zimmerman seems to have put on weight before the trail, which perhaps is also a strategy on the defense to emphasis that the difference in their body masses does not mean that Zimmerman was a stronger opponent.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  46. #146
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Sad truth is that ongoing denial is a useful defense in the absence of witnesses.
    The only thing that's certain is that Zimmerman killed a kid. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it's fair to assume the kid was innocent.
    The only person who knows what happened is Zimmerman, and even then his memory will be subject to bias.

  47. #147
    JUB Addict Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The big question is who struck the first blow? Perhaps Zimmerman should not have followed, but that does not justify violence. If Zimmerman struck first, he is guilty of at least manslaughter. But, if Martin struck first, Zimmerman was entitled to defend himself. Not necessarily with lethal force, but he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The burden is always on the State to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
    In addition to what gsdx said (and GZ apparently told police that Martin "was running away" when he stopped him), that's bullshit. If you harass, stalk, and terrorize someone, that undermines your self-defense argument if they attack you. Otherwise anyone with a concealed-carry permit has a license to go hunting anyone they don't like.
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  48. #148
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The prosecution played heavily on the ages of the two, trying to invoke sympathy from the all women jury most likely, an understandable strategy on their part. The defense tried to counter by showing with life size cut outs that Trayvon was quite taller than Zimmerman, showing more recent photos of Trayvon and bringing in Zimmerman's martial arts teacher to testify that Zimmerman was not a very good fighter. Zimmerman seems to have put on weight before the trail, which perhaps is also a strategy on the defense to emphasis that the difference in their body masses does not mean that Zimmerman was a stronger opponent.
    Quite an understandable strategy considering five of the six women are mothers.

    I want to believe this story or this actual event fits the programming to say guns are evil.... but it doesnt.

    The senior investigator and the Chief of Police said from the word go that nothing existed to make this murder two. Possibly manslaughter.

    So, I take it as heartening that even with ridiculous pressure outside the courtroom our system came to the same conclusion. Hopefully the jury will see it as manslaughter as well.
    Last edited by JayHawk; July 13th, 2013 at 09:30 AM.
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  49. #149
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    Re: Floridia Prosecutors downgrading Zimmerman charges

    I was only able to follow the actual testimony sporadically but managed to read most of the HLN summaries. The state was anxious to include as much previous accounts of Zimmerman calling the police to bolster their position he was an out of control cop wanna be. But from what they did manage to get put into testimony, I picked up something that I didn't note anyone else picking up on. Zimmerman seemed to be reluctant to directly engage a suspect. He seemed to want to avoid confrontations when he could.
    “You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will catch on.”


  50. #150
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    In addition to what gsdx said (and GZ apparently told police that Martin "was running away" when he stopped him), that's bullshit. If you harass, stalk, and terrorize someone, that undermines your self-defense argument if they attack you. Otherwise anyone with a concealed-carry permit has a license to go hunting anyone they don't like.

    There is no evidence that Zimmerman harassed or terrorized Martin, or anyone else. Zimmerman followed not stalked Martin. There is NO point of law that allows for physically assaulting someone for following you (though it would make parades alot more interesting). Zimmerman never stopped Martin, I don't know where you got that bit of misinformation.
    I watched the entire trial, gavel to gavel, and even the prosecution never asserted any such contact.

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