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  1. #51
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by loveguys72 View Post
    Based on what I've heard and seen to date, my opinion hasn't changed from when this story broke: Zimmerman is guilty of voluntary manslaughter. He willfully and knowingly engaged in reckless conduct which directly resulted in the death of another. The only reason second degree murder is a stretch is that there is question regarding Zimmerman's intent. Did he pursue Martin with the intent to kill him? The prosecution knows this, which is why the top count is second degree murder with a lesser included charge of voluntary manslaughter. The prosecution fully expects the jury will be uncomfortable with the top count, and so will go for the lesser charge.
    Well, if he was stalking him with the intention of killing him, that would be FIRST-degree murder (because of the premeditation). That's pretty clearly not what happened. Very few people think GZ left his house that evening saying "I'm-a gonna kill me a black teen tonight!" (Though actually IIUC (and IANAL) premeditation can be a few seconds of "I'm gonna kill you!" obviously the prosecution didn't believe that or didn't think they could make it stick.) Second-degree murder, again IIUC, is when you have a sudden impulse to kill and do so. Manslaughter is when you don't have the intent to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Not sure what happened to "he did whichever one he did."
    That was about deciding which crime definition applies. The judge is about the instructions to the jury and so on. I wish the judge were someone who absolutely wouldn't give GZ a pass because after all it was only a black kid, which I don't at all trust as things stand.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  2. #52
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ^ I wonder how they chose the jury? I've seen cases where choosing the jurors takes longer than the case itself.
    I was very surprised how quickly that process went.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

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  3. #53
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    whoever kept prank calling the skype testimony needs to grow the fuck up.

    that is some kindergarten crap for real.

    I really hope their IP's are masked and they get reprimanded.
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  4. #54
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taralen View Post
    whoever kept prank calling the skype testimony needs to grow the fuck up.

    that is some kindergarten crap for real.

    I really hope their IP's are masked and they get reprimanded.
    Trace their IPs and hold them in contempt.

  5. #55
    JUB Addict syoBsUtsuJ's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The only thing I know for a fact is that George got fat afterwards and changed his testimony repeatedly throughout the investigation. We all know that's he's guilty, but in the great state of Florida he'll probably be extolled as being a hero ... racist bastard!

  6. #56
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I'm watching the trial right now. Man, the defense lawyer is an asshole. He's trying to discredit the medical examiner by asking him a bunch of questions not pertaining to his specialty.

    This is the most common method to discredit an expert in front of laymen. Normal everyday people have trouble understanding specialty. So, if you're a lawyer and you want to discredit a neurologist, just ask him a bunch of questions regarding cardiology. I've seen this sort of questioning in evolution vs creation debates as well. If the pro-evolution scientist was a biologist, they would keep asking him questions about geology, which he would have to say "I don't know" a bunch of times. Since most people are illiterate idiots, they will take all his I don't know answers as him not being on top of things.

    Watching the cross examination today was painful. The defense attorney was such an asshole. The medical examiner said many times that it wasn't his job to do this, do that, and the attorney kept asking him about it, knowing he would say "I don't know".

  7. #57

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    ....Watching the cross examination today was painful....
    I think one can say that about most trials; I would rather stick needles in myself than be selected for the enfuriating, mind-numbing, fake, humiliating Kafka-esque ordeal of a jury trial.

  8. #58
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The fact that Jeanteal lied, regardless of how many times, undercuts her entire testimony.
    Oh, so you want to compare notes then?

    Here we go then...

    THINGS THAT ZIMMERMAN LIED ABOUT:

    When he was first grilled by the police right after the shooting he, claimed that Trayvon hid in the bushes. When they went to the scene later, there were no bushes.

    When Zimmerman was up for bail, he lied about having a passport and how much money he really had. He used his wife to try to hide them from the judge.

    When asked in an interview if he knew anything about the Stand Your Ground law, he said no. His Criminal Justice professor testified that it was a major issue taught in the class Zimmerman attended.

    Oh yes, Zimmerman is the epitome of honesty, indeed!

  9. #59
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Here's an opinion piece about Rachel Jeantel's court performance.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcel...b_3537226.html

    I can relate. I'm a 30 year old guy who came to the US when I was 10. There are still English words that I struggle to say correctly. These sounds most people would learn from their parents at a very young age. I missed out on that.

    Like I said, it could have been me on the stand while the very articulate and smart lawyer make fun of how I talk. Shame on that lawyer for exploiting Rachel's weakness. And shame on the rest of the world for falling for what the lawyer intended.
    My grandmother was born in Texas, but Spanish was her first language, and was picking cotton and tomatoes in the fields instead of going to school so her family could eat during the Depression. Even though she learned English and got her GED later on, there's still some words that are hard for her to pronounce or understand. This might make some people think she's an idiot, but she is anything but. She raised 16 kids, worked for the NYC Police Dept, and was a Park Ranger in Florida.

    Not everyone born in America are taught English first, or primarily speak English.

  10. #60
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Oh, so you want to compare notes then?

    Here we go then...

    THINGS THAT ZIMMERMAN LIED ABOUT:

    When he was first grilled by the police right after the shooting he, claimed that Trayvon hid in the bushes. When they went to the scene later, there were no bushes.

    When Zimmerman was up for bail, he lied about having a passport and how much money he really had. He used his wife to try to hide them from the judge.

    When asked in an interview if he knew anything about the Stand Your Ground law, he said no. His Criminal Justice professor testified that it was a major issue taught in the class Zimmerman attended.

    Oh yes, Zimmerman is the epitome of honesty, indeed!


    Well first off, there were bushes, and Trayvon was standing/hiding in them, as the lead detective for the prosecution testified.

    Additionally, I never said Zimmerman was the "epitome of honesty", but he has not lied on the stand under oath or in a sworn deposition.

    I have never said, nor do I believe, Zimmerman is a good guy. The question is, did he break the law? The only legal violation he's been charged with is the shooting. Was it in self defence? Did Martin attack him? Was he genuinely in fear for his life (the everyman standard)?

    The standard for conviction is "BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt", the prosecution has not met that threshold.

  11. #61
    I spell spelled spelt
    gsdx's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The standard for conviction is "BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt", the prosecution has not met that threshold.
    That is the standard for any trial by jury. However, you're not on the jury, so you can't see into their minds to know what they're thinking. Some juries are smart enough to see through the lies and find the truth. So far, the only truth is Zimmerman's, and we have only his word for it.

    To you, reasonable doubt is obvious, but, to the jury, they may be thinking that it's reasonable to believe that Zimmerman is full of shit and a racists who profiled a young man and taunted him into a confrontation where he shot him to death.

  12. #62
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Well first off, there were bushes, and Trayvon was standing/hiding in them, as the lead detective for the prosecution testified.

    Additionally, I never said Zimmerman was the "epitome of honesty", but he has not lied on the stand under oath or in a sworn deposition.

    I have never said, nor do I believe, Zimmerman is a good guy. The question is, did he break the law? The only legal violation he's been charged with is the shooting. Was it in self defence? Did Martin attack him? Was he genuinely in fear for his life (the everyman standard)?

    The standard for conviction is "BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt", the prosecution has not met that threshold.
    Unfortunately, they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't want to see GZ getting 25 to life. I think that's excessive. But a couple of facts stood out to me.

    A doctor examining GZ testified that his injuries were not serious. Just scrapes. That's a long shot from life threatening.

    The medical examiner of TM testified that his group didn't find any tissue belonging to GZ under TM's fingernails. Of TM had GZ pinned down and banging his head onto the concrete, there should have been some traces there.

    I don't want to believe it, but did GZ really go after TM intending to apprehend him and when TM fought back GZ realized he wasn't in control so he pulled out gun? The scrapes on GZ's head were minor and do not at all show a life and death struggle. It would, however, indicate that TM was fighting back to something. That and he had 100+ pounds on TM.

    Good job defense lawyers for swaying my opinion the other way.
    Last edited by ZombieKiller; July 5th, 2013 at 01:01 PM.

  13. #63
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Here's an article listing many of GZ's lies: http://www.legalspeaks.com/2013/07/5...zimmermantrial

    TM didn't ambush him from the bushes, or bang his head on the ground multiple times. GZ told the cop at the time that it wasn't HIM calling for help. He knew all about Stand Your Ground laws. It goes on. The guy's a lying sack of shit.
    ____
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  14. #64
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    The scrapes on GZ's head were minor and do not at all show a life and death struggle. It would, however, indicate that TM was fighting back to something. That and he had 100+ pounds on TM.
    The prosecution hasn't proven anything, they've asserted alot.
    How many times does a person need to have their head impacted on concrete before they can legitimately feel in fear for their life?
    Martin weighed 158 pounds, Zimmerman weighed 200 pounds, that is not a difference of 100+ pounds, as you keep repeating. It's 42.

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    GZ told the cop at the time that it wasn't HIM calling for help. He knew all about Stand Your Ground laws. It goes on. The guy's a lying sack of shit.
    Zimmerman told the lead detective the screams "didn't even sound like me", not that it wasn't him screaming.

    I have not, and am not, saying Zimmerman is someone worthy of praise or admiration.

    His contention is that he shot Martin because he was in fear for his life. The prosecution has done nothing to disprove that assertion.
    He claims he was attacked by Martin. There is no legal justification for attacking someone for following you.

    Unless you believe Zimmerman inflicted his own injuries, you have to believe Martin caused them, because they were the only people there.

    No matter how minor the injuries were, or weren’t, have no bearing on the case. The standard is did he (Zimmerman) believe his life was in danger. Besides which, physical injuries are not required to claim self defence, simply believing your life is in danger is the legal threshold.

    Apparently in this, like many other trials, racial considerations trump facts and the rule of law.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 5th, 2013 at 02:46 PM.

  15. #65
    I spell spelled spelt
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Here's an article listing many of GZ's lies: http://www.legalspeaks.com/2013/07/5...zimmermantrial
    Well worth the time to read. There is no DNA evidence to support his 'story', and I loved the bit about his injuries requiring only a band-aid.

    The whole story of what happened on February 26, 2012 will never be known as Trayvon Martin did not live to tell his version while Zimmerman’s version changes constantly depending on to whom he is telling it and when he tells it. In the final analysis, those Zimmerman lies and inconsistencies add up and may end up being huge in the eyes of the all women jury and land Zimmerman in jail for life to ponder them.

  16. #66
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The prosecution hasn't proven anything, they've asserted alot.
    How many times does a person need to have their head impacted on concrete before they can legitimately feel in fear for their life?
    Martin weighed 158 pounds, Zimmerman weighed 200 pounds, that is not a difference of 100+ pounds, as you keep repeating. It's 42.
    My mistake. You are right about the weight difference. That said, I simply have a hard time believing scrapes on his head indicated a life and death situation.



    His contention is that he shot Martin because he was in fear for his life. The prosecution has done nothing to disprove that assertion.
    He claims he was attacked by Martin. There is no legal justification for attacking someone for following you.
    But this is just it. He claims. He can claim a lot of things. We really don't know if TM attacked GZ or if TM was defending himself.

    Unless you believe Zimmerman inflicted his own injuries, you have to believe Martin caused them, because they were the only people there.
    I haven't seen anyone seriously suggesting GZ inflicted his own injuries. But that doesn't mean TM provoked and attacked. The thing about a dead boy is that he can't tell us his side of the story.

    No matter how minor the injuries were, or weren’t, have no bearing on the case. The standard is did he (Zimmerman) believe his life was in danger. Besides which, physical injuries are not required to claim self defence, simply believing your life is in danger is the legal threshold.
    Is that the standard now? Do you not see the implication of this? People getting shot for pushing, slapping, etc.

    I'm sorry, but I'm extremely uncomfortable with the notion that we can kill people in the name of self defense over some scrapes that only require band-aid.
    Last edited by ZombieKiller; July 5th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.

  17. #67
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Zimmerman does not claim Martin provoked the attack, he claims Martin attacked him. And there is no evidence to the contrary. Anything else is speculation.
    The defence has so far eliminated 2nd degree murder from the realm of possibility, but the lesser included charge of manslaughter is still a possibility, though I'm doubtful.



    And Yes, that is the standard now...in Florida, and a few other states. The assertion that feeling your life was in danger is reasonable grounds for a claim of self defence. It doesn’t usually work, but it is a legal answer to a charge.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 5th, 2013 at 07:45 PM.

  18. #68
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Zimmerman told the lead detective the screams "didn't even sound like me", not that it wasn't him screaming.
    Plausible...there's a very good chance that Zimmerman had never before heard himself on a RECORDING of any kind. I remember the very first time I heard a recording of myself, and I was like "IS THAT ME???" We always hear ourselves along with the tonal resonance which takes place INSIDE our bodies, as well as what is vocalized, but recordings do not capture any of the internal sound aspects, so recordings of ourselves sound very "different" to us.

    So, the case is including possibilities of findings of Second Degree Murder *AND* Manslaughter? I didn't realize that, but that would mean that if the stringent 2nd cannot be proven in court, I think manslaughter calls for much less of a requirement. Certainly there is NO question, whatsoever, that he did kill TM.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

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  19. #69

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    ...We always hear ourselves along with the tonal resonance which takes place INSIDE our bodies, as well as what is vocalized, but recordings do not capture any of the internal sound aspects...
    That's right.

  20. #70
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    So, the case is including possibilities of findings of Second Degree Murder *AND* Manslaughter? I didn't realize that, but that would mean that if the stringent 2nd cannot be proven in court, I think manslaughter calls for much less of a requirement. Certainly there is NO question, whatsoever, that he did kill TM.

    Zimmerman has never denied that he shot Martin, he says it was in self defence.

  21. #71
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Zimmerman has never denied that he shot Martin, he says it was in self defence.
    That's why I said there is "no question, whatsoever" - because even if there was some doubt that he killed TM, he readily admits (and seems to EMBRACE) it.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

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  22. #72
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The defence has so far eliminated 2nd degree murder from the realm of possibility
    Unless, of course, the jury has a problem trying to figure out which one of Zimmerman's stories is the most truthful one. The only thing he did right was to call 911. He did everything else knowing that he shouldn't be doing them. When you are armed and the instigator, self defence pretty-much flies out the window. If the jury sees that and accepts it, they will see that Trayvon was the one acting in self defence. He was the one standing his ground.

    No matter what story Zimmerman can make up for the events of that night, the facts are that Trayvon died at Zimmerman's hand, and it is because of Zimmerman's actions that he is dead.

  23. #73
    ZombieKiller
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I'm simply astonished at the level of ignorance people are at about science and opinion. People seem to still think science is like a doctrine where you never ever ever change your opinion.

    Take the case with Dr. Bao. He's made a change in his opinion about TM's survival from 1-3 minutes to 1-10 minutes. And the defense somehow made it sound like everything he says about the case is invalid.

    Dr. Bao said it very nicely. You improve yourself by changing your opinion as new information comes in. If you don't ever change your opinion despite new information, then you will never improve yourself.

    I'm guessing the stupid women on the jury are now dismissing everything Dr. Bao said just because he improved himself by changing his opinion from 1-3 minutes to 1-10 minutes.

  24. #74
    JUB Addict MMMonsterBoy's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    With all at has been revealed thus far, I believe GZ had every intent on killing TM. GZ was angered by "these guys" and that "they always get away." He wanted to play cop, as he continued to follow TM despite police orders to stay put. I do believe GZ wanted to handle this on his own. Well aware of the laws, Zimmerman knew there was a chance he'd get away with the murder by claiming self-defense. Truly the best defense would have been for him to stay inside his car or be more conspicuous. The fact that he regrets nothing shows that he is a danger to society. I hope he gets the maximum penalty.

    And everyone is making a bigger deal out of his friend than need be because she's black. The lady (can't access her name) who analyzed Zimmerman's scars on stand had an air that she didn't want to be there either. You could tell she was frustrated by the defense's lack of knowledge to the science she so clearly understood. Yet media isn't going to portray this because it is easier to paint the portrait of yet another angry black woman

  25. #75
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I want:Guilty of murder 2
    Hopefully Happens:Guilty of manslaughter
    Hope doesn't happen:Not guilty
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  26. #76
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I'm very surprised that nobody brought up the point that somebody who has burglary or other mayhem on their mind, IS NOT likely to go to the store and buy stuff that occupies his hands. I think that most break-ins (which Zimmerman appears to have been the most worried about, with Trayvon - y'know, to get "drug money" from his fence or something??) are done by people who purposely make sure their hands are free. I doubt that Trayvon bought tea and skittles which he would have probably needed to leave behind at a crime.

    Or did I miss something? I am not glued to the testimony.

    If this question didn't get asked, WHY didn't anybody think to ask it?
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  27. #77
    Match in the gas tank..
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Because racist white people never ever use logic.
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  28. #78
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taralen View Post
    Because racist white people never ever use logic.


    Or because the skittles and Iced tea were in the front pouch of Trayvons hoodie and Zimmerman never saw them.

  29. #79
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ Everything I've heard, is that he was carrying them (or that was implied, or something).
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  30. #80
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    ^ Everything I've heard, is that he was carrying them (or that was implied, or something).


    A lot of garbage was implied about both Martin and Zimmerman. I watched the trial (gavel to gavel)on live feed, without the medias constant chattering. The only thing he was carrying in his hands was his phone.

  31. #81
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Or because the skittles and iced tea were in the front pouch of Trayvons hoodie and Zimmerman never saw them.
    No, the point wasn't that Martin should have proved his innocence to Zimmerman by whipping out some skittles, because that was none of Zimmerman's business. The point was, if Martin was carrying items that a normal person would carry when he goes about his business, then we can be sure Martin was just going about his business, and not there to steal anything or threaten anyone. It pulls the rug out from under Zimmerman's whining that he was just facing up to a threatening person. What was Martin going to do, club him to death with some iced tea?

    And although I'm tired of hearing the same excuse that it's okay to say "white racist" as I hear when people say "drunken indian" or "lazy black" ("I didn't mean allllll indians, just this one I'm talking about in my stereotype-reinforcing story….I didn't mean allllll blacks, just the one I work with who I talk about in my stereotype-reinforcing story…I didn't mean alllll whites….. "), that doesn't change the fact that Martin is dead for no particular good reason, and Zimmerman looks to be responsible for that.
    Last edited by bankside; July 13th, 2013 at 06:22 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  32. #82

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The big question is who struck the first blow? Perhaps Zimmerman should not have followed, but that does not justify violence. If Zimmerman struck first, he is guilty of at least manslaughter. But, if Martin struck first, Zimmerman was entitled to defend himself. Not necessarily with lethal force, but he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The burden is always on the State to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Last edited by Benvolio; July 13th, 2013 at 07:12 AM.

  33. #83
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The big question is who struck the first blow?
    But that's the whole point. We have only Zimmerman's side of the story. We will never know the truth because anything other than Zimmerman's testimony is pure speculation on the part of the prosecution. And, quite frankly, Zimmerman's versions (yes, plural!) simply don't add up to the physical evidence.

    Even if Trayvon threw the first punch, you defend yourself with a punch, not with a gun when your life isn't in danger.

  34. #84
    I need water Kabluey's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Sad truth is that ongoing denial is a useful defense in the absence of witnesses.
    The only thing that's certain is that Zimmerman killed a kid. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it's fair to assume the kid was innocent.
    The only person who knows what happened is Zimmerman, and even then his memory will be subject to bias.

  35. #85
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The big question is who struck the first blow? Perhaps Zimmerman should not have followed, but that does not justify violence. If Zimmerman struck first, he is guilty of at least manslaughter. But, if Martin struck first, Zimmerman was entitled to defend himself. Not necessarily with lethal force, but he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The burden is always on the State to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
    In addition to what gsdx said (and GZ apparently told police that Martin "was running away" when he stopped him), that's bullshit. If you harass, stalk, and terrorize someone, that undermines your self-defense argument if they attack you. Otherwise anyone with a concealed-carry permit has a license to go hunting anyone they don't like.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  36. #86
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    In addition to what gsdx said (and GZ apparently told police that Martin "was running away" when he stopped him), that's bullshit. If you harass, stalk, and terrorize someone, that undermines your self-defense argument if they attack you. Otherwise anyone with a concealed-carry permit has a license to go hunting anyone they don't like.

    There is no evidence that Zimmerman harassed or terrorized Martin, or anyone else. Zimmerman followed not stalked Martin. There is NO point of law that allows for physically assaulting someone for following you (though it would make parades alot more interesting). Zimmerman never stopped Martin, I don't know where you got that bit of misinformation.
    I watched the entire trial, gavel to gavel, and even the prosecution never asserted any such contact.

  37. #87
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    There is no evidence that Zimmerman harassed or terrorized Martin, or anyone else. Zimmerman followed not stalked Martin.
    So you keep saying, over and over and over ad nauseum. 'Followed' and 'stalked' are open to interpretation. You say 'follow'. Many say 'stalked'. He did one thing right and a whole lot of things wrong. As a result, an innocent teenage boy is dead.

    And how do you know Zimmerman never stopped Trayvon? We have only HIS word, and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. We'll never, ever know what happened that night, but Zimmerman has a reason for saying he didn't stop Trayvon. He doesn't want his ass parked behind bars.

    We don't know what happened. YOU don't know what happened. Why do you insist that you are right about what happened that night and everyone else is wrong? The only other person who could give us a different version is conveniently dead. I don't understand why you're defending him so vehemently.

  38. #88
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    So you keep saying, over and over and over ad nauseum. 'Followed' and 'stalked' are open to interpretation. You say 'follow'. Many say 'stalked'. He did one thing right and a whole lot of things wrong. As a result, an innocent teenage boy is dead.

    And how do you know Zimmerman never stopped Trayvon? We have only HIS word, and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. We'll never, ever know what happened that night, but Zimmerman has a reason for saying he didn't stop Trayvon. He doesn't want his ass parked behind bars.

    We don't know what happened. YOU don't know what happened. Why do you insist that you are right about what happened that night and everyone else is wrong? The only other person who could give us a different version is conveniently dead. I don't understand why you're defending him so vehemently.

    I never said I KNOW what happened that night, but I listened to the evidence and testimony, not news reports. The evidence offered at trial does not support the prosecutions claim. And it isn't just me who believes this, the overwhelming majority of people who watched the trial say the same thing, the prosecution failed to meet the burden of proof.
    I am not defending Zimmerman, I am defending the process "Innocent until PROVEN guilty". You and others have it backwards.
    YOU believed he was guilty before a single iota of evidence was presented.
    The EVIDENCE leans in support of Zimmerman's claims. Do I believe everything Zimmerman claims? NO! Nor do I believe he was/is a racist vigilante.
    He's a little man who wanted to be a big hero and got himself involved in a tragic event. That's proof of stupidity not criminality.

    NOW I'll turn the question of proof to you. You believe Zimmerman's guilty. Based on what evidence? What testimony? What physical evidence?

    You joyously jumped into the lycnch mob, let's see your facts.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 13th, 2013 at 01:30 PM.

  39. #89
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    NOW I'll turn the question of proof to you. You believe Zimmerman's guilty. Based on what evidence? What testimony? What physical evidence?
    I never said that. All I said was that Zimmerman shot Trayvon and Trayvon died as a result of Zimmerman's actions. Could the death have been prevented? Absolutely, if Zimmerman had followed directions of both the neighbourhood watch and the 911 operator. He made up his mind that Trayvon was 'up to no good' and pursued him, and that pursuit lead to the death of a young man. There is no disputing that Zimmerman shot Trayvon. The dispute is, was it justified? Was Zimmerman defending himself? Was he justified in 'standing his ground'? That is the question, and everything he did that night EXCEPT phone 911 belies his claim of self-defence.

    Did he set out to kill Trayvon? No. Is he responsible for Trayvon's death? Absolutely. Was he standing his ground? If he was (which I seriously doubt), he wouldn't have had to if he wasn't such a big shot asshole who thought he was better than a teenage boy walking home with some treats for his younger brother.

    All I've ever claimed is that Zimmerman was guilty of Trayvon's death. Nothing more. Should he be punished for it? In my opinion, yes. It will be a travesty of justice if he isn't.

  40. #90
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Are you aware that the phone call where the operator told Zimmerman " we don't need you to do that" in reference to following Martin, was the 3rd phone call? In the first 2 the operator asked "what's he doing now?, which way is he going, can you still see him?" prompting Zimmerman to follow. Zimmerman wasn't told not to follow until a supervisor stepped in. This is where my aversion to the accusation of "stalking" comes from.

  41. #91
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    And then he didn't follow the directions of the police, but continued to follow Trayvon. He was doing all sorts of wrong actions, all of which led to this young man's death. Trayvon didn't do anything wrong up to the confrontation (and perhaps then either, since we only have the word of a known liar for the report of what he did).

    That this is GZ's fault, at least primarily and perhaps entirely, is not even in dispute.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  42. #92
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    And then he didn't follow the directions of the police, but continued to follow Trayvon. He was doing all sorts of wrong actions, all of which led to this young man's death. Trayvon didn't do anything wrong up to the confrontation (and perhaps then either, since we only have the word of a known liar for the report of what he did).

    That this is GZ's fault, at least primarily and perhaps entirely, is not even in dispute.

    And that's the core of the case....who initiated the physical confrontation. Even if you believe in the deepest recesses of your heart that Zimmerman is entirely to blame....he gets the benefit of the doubt. Because what you believe or feel is irrelevant to the question.......What can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt?
    It ain’t perfect but it's the best legal system we got.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 13th, 2013 at 06:14 PM.

  43. #93
    JUB Addict MorrisseyX's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    I think George Zimmerman should get a long prison sentence at least 10 years or more BUT I am not sure if the jury is going to go that far?

    I am worried Zimmerman might get off for killing Trayvon! This is my fear that this man is going to walk free and not spend a day in prison where he should be. Zimmerman has no regret for killing Travyon Martin the most sickest part is people have been helping Zimmerman pay his legal fees.

    Zimmerman went after Trayvon he killed the boy and the people I feel the saddest for are his PARENTS. People seem to forget a seventeen year old boy is dead and his parents are grieving. I feel so bad for Trayvon's mom and dad the pain these people must be going through. Terrible for a parent to outlive their child. The worst part about this is, Zimmerman went after Travyon acting like a town vigilante I hear. This man should be behind bars a message must be sent you cannot just go around shooting and killing children and getting away with it.

    I pray that the jury convicts this son of a bitch and he gets A LONG prison sentence!
    Last edited by MorrisseyX; July 13th, 2013 at 06:15 PM.

  44. #94
    Evolving...give it a try. Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    As someone said on Twitter, the danger of a Zimmerman acquittal is...more George Zimmermans.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  45. #95
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - A Florida jury interrupted deliberations on the fate of George Zimmerman for the shooting death of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin on Saturday to ask a question about manslaughter, the presiding judge in the case said.
    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/florida-jur...221452403.html

  46. #96
    Kien
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Holy shit.

  47. #97
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Found not guilty!!

    Homophobia kills!

  48. #98
    Dejavudoo
    Guest

    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Zimmerman is acquitted, as predicted. Reasonable doubt existed for the jury.

    The suggestion that this is any kind of green light for "more George Zimmermans" is not plausible. When Mr. Simpson was acquitted, no one saw an oncoming tide of more O.J., nor will we.

    Even for those who believe Mr. Zimmerman guilty, there isn't any credible evidence that he began the patrol intending murder.

    As was said early on, the prosecution overreached.

    It is, of course, tragic for the Martin family. No matter what the truth of his death, it is a great tragedy in any case.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; July 13th, 2013 at 07:10 PM.

  49. #99
    Of Nightmares & Secrets. MoufOfKhaos's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    This, is not good. Chaos forever fucking reigning...
    "I snuff their tongues, my heart a-flutter,

    These words i speak are gates to Hell..."

  50. #100
    Ωℯѵℯ® Faℒℒ ℒℴѵℯ Sha-Rok's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    What a load of shit. The US justice system strikes again.

    R.I.P Tray; we love you bro.

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