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  1. #51
    JUB Addict loveguys72's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    I don't get concerned about things I can't control.

  2. #52
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    I need you to calm down. Try to think this through objectively.
    I am not 'calmed up', and I AM thinking objectively. I know the case. I know the law. The prosecution has a good case against him and, with everything which happened after the shooting, I can see riots happening if the jury finds him 'not guilty'. And, in my mind, 'we do not need you to do that' means 'back off'. He was a man on a mission, and he finished it.

    But this is accomplishing nothing. I've submitted 'law' and you've submitted opinion. I'll stop now.
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

  3. #53
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    But that's the thing. Stand your ground law doesn't say anything about who started it. GZ said that TM jumped him and was beating the crap out of him banging his head down into the concrete. If this were the case, then stand your ground law applies.

    While I agree with you that yes dispatcher guy was trying to tell him to back off. But the order was poorly worded to sound like it was a suggestion. And you of all people should know that when it comes to legal issues every little word will be nitpicked and prodded.

    I agree with you that he was a man on a mission. Like I said before, how he reacted to the site of TM aligned perfectly with the way cops act in my area. Remember my story about that lady cop acting like I was assaulting her after I asked her a simple question?

    While I'd say TM was in the right in this case, crucifying GZ is definitely the wrong thing to do here.

    Anyway, I will agree to disagree. Based on the amount of bloodlust that I've been seeing in people, I'm inclined to not pass such a harsh judgment on GZ.

    Added by edit.

    Regarding legal issues and the words, a few years back a guy in my area was arrested and charged with DUI. Sounds simple, right? Well, he wasn't driving. The key wasn't even in the car. He was watching a football game in his driveway. The tv was in the garage. He was drinking beer and cleaning his car while watching a football game. A cop with absolutely no common sense drove by and arrested him for DUI. Sounds amazing, but what the cop did aligned perfectly with the law at the time. State congress changed the wording of the DUI law shortly after that to exempt such a case.

    The point is just because it's the wording of the law doesn't mean it's right. When I took law, our law professor grilled into us that there are 2 sides to the law: the literal word of the law and the spirit of the law. The DUI arrest case I mentioned was an abuse of the literal wording of the law with the total disregard for the spirit of the law. There are already enough cops and lawyers that are very good at using the literal word of the law for their egos while ignoring the spirit of the law. We really don't need to go down this route.
    Do you really believe that shit ?
    Seriously, George shot and killed a person, then he was scared, then he scratched himself after to make up a fight story.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  4. #54
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    I dont think he will walk free... the public condemned him sans all the facts... the jury, no matter how carefully selected, will come from the public. He will burn dont you worry... our media has told us so.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  5. #55
    JUB Addict vulgar_newcomer's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    It became 'voluntary' the moment the 911 operator told him to 'back off' and he continued to pursue Trayvon instead. But for Zimmerman's actions, Trayvon would very likely be alive today. Maybe he didn't intend to kill Trayvon, but his actions were a direct cause of Trayvon's death.
    But you must understand that a 911 operator/dispatcher isn't a law enforcement office and they cannot order anyone legally to do anything on a phone or in person. It's not a point of how I feel on the case but rather there is no legal ground to keep bringing up what was suggested (even if good smart advice) by a fellow citizen dispatcher . They simply repeat, what they are told by the supervisors to prevent liability. Its a standard answer for complicated issues that is given not to to pursue for obvious reasons.

  6. #56
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    I think there will be a verdict of manslaughter. If he's not found guilty,I don't know what will happen.

  7. #57
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    He (Zimmerman) will be found not guilty.

    He saw someone he thought was suspicious, and called the cops.....legal

    He was carrying a concealed weapon....legal

    The 911 operator told him not to follow......He was under no obligation to obey the 911 operator.

    He followed Martin....legal

    There was a confrontation.......only Zimmerman knows who initiated it.

    Zimmerman was hit in the face (injuries to the nose), knocked to the ground (injuries to the back of his head)

    Martin was shot from a distance of 18", leaning over Zimmerman (coroners report).

    Martin wasn't fleeing a man with a gun, he was attacking a man on the ground. Zimmerman pulled his weapon, in self defence, and fired.

    There is more than ample room for reasonable doubt.......Zimmerman walks.

    There was no Illegal act until the physical confrontation.

    Who actually threw the first punch? Zimmerman? Very unlikely, he had a gun, and was waiting for the cops.

  8. #58
    Look Away To The Moon. MoufOfKhaos's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    He (Zimmerman) will be found not guilty.

    He saw someone he thought was suspicious, and called the cops.....legal

    He was carrying a concealed weapon....legal

    The 911 operator told him not to follow......He was under no obligation to obey the 911 operator.

    He followed Martin....legal


    There was a confrontation.......only Zimmerman knows who initiated it.

    Zimmerman was hit in the face (injuries to the nose), knocked to the ground (injuries to the back of his head)

    Martin was shot from a distance of 18", leaning over Zimmerman (coroners report).

    Martin wasn't fleeing a man with a gun, he was attacking a man on the ground. Zimmerman pulled his weapon, in self defence, and fired.

    There is more than ample room for reasonable doubt.......Zimmerman walks.

    There was no Illegal act until the physical confrontation.

    Who actually threw the first punch? Zimmerman? Very unlikely, he had a gun, and was waiting for the cops.
    I won't go over what I didn't bold, because it's not needed - I will agree on the FIRST point that he had every right to contact the police when he suspected something suspicious.

    First point - him ignoring the 911 operator not only looks horrible for this perceived notion that he had no intent to harm Trayvon, it negates him calling the police in the first place; if he was just going to pursue the "suspicious" person anyway, whether or not the police were involved, why involve them? He was told not to pursue - whether he has the LEGAL RIGHT to ignore their instruction is wholly irrelevant.

    Second point - him following Trayvon created a situation that didn't have to be; had Zimmerman simply done as he was advised to do by the operator, Trayvon would more than likely be alive and both man and boy would have gone home. This, by the way, NEGATES your last point - Zimmerman did NOT wait for the cops, because you cannot wait and FOLLOW at the same time. Having a gun does not mean the man could not have thrown the first punch, it just means had things escalated that he had a ready weapon to use. There's no "reasonable doubt" on that.

    Third point - But that's what we're talking about; the illegal act and the intent/reasoning for it. You don't call the police and then go looking for a fight - that's ass backwards. And given the circumstance so far, it sounds like that's what the man did. Now you can say he had the right to do all the things he did, and it a lot of ways i'll agree, but I can also say it also erases this so-called reasonable doubt you claim he has.
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  9. #59
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Zimmerman did one thing right: calling the police. Everything else he did is against the rules of Neighbourhood Watch. I found this news article explaining what Zimmerman did wrong:

    SANFORD, Fla. — Last August, Wendy Dorival got a call about setting up a local neighborhood watch. As the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department here, she gets such calls regularly, and the city already had at least 10 active watch groups. So she thought nothing of this call, from George Zimmerman.

    She set up a visit for the next month at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community that had been dealing with a string of burglaries. When 25 residents showed up, a decent turnout, she had the residents introduce themselves; after all, people join the groups to look out for each other. She then gave a PowerPoint presentation and distributed a handbook. As she always does, she emphasized what a neighborhood watch is — and what it is not.

    In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”

    Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.


    Mr. Zimmerman was there, she recalled, and the local group appointed him their coordinator. But on Feb. 26, Mr. Zimmerman, 28, pursued, confronted and fatally shot Trayvon Martin, 17, an unarmed black high school student who had been carrying only an iced tea and a bag of Skittles.

    <snip>

    To Ms. Dorival, the widening controversy has led to a false impression about neighborhood watch programs, which she said strengthen local communities and help reduce crime.

    “I believe in neighborhood watch,” she said. “I advocate for neighborhood watch. I don’t want this black eye for neighborhood watch.”

    In Sanford, she said, watch groups are not even supposed to make the rounds. That is the job of another kind of volunteer organization, Citizens on Patrol, whose members are selected and trained by the police and who drive the streets in a specially marked vehicle. Members of that group, Ms. Dorival said, “are armed only with a radio.”

    A wide range of neighborhood watch organizations exist across the country. Some have patrols, while others like Sanford’s do not. But the National Sheriffs’ Association, which sponsors the program nationwide, is absolutely clear on one point: guns have no place in a watch group. A manual distributed by the association repeatedly underscores the point: “Patrol members do not carry weapons.”

    The manual warns that watch members should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” It should be emphasized to members of patrols, the materials state, that “they do not possess police power and they shall not carry weapons.” The consequences of not following the guidelines are severe, the manual states: “Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us...anted=all&_r=0
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  10. #60
    JUB Addict statsguy's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Here's the thing. We all make stupid mistakes. Some of our mistakes don't have lasting consequences. Some do.
    Guns are a major amplifier on the possible consequences. There's a reason it's called deadly force. I have a couple of friends that are real hot heads, but normally cool down rather quickly, and sometimes even admit they were wrong on a subject. But put a gun in their hand at the right moment and it might be fatal. This is my complaint about people having guns in an urban environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    But that's the thing. Stand your ground law doesn't say anything about who started it.
    This is one of the major flaws in stand your ground laws. The "shooter" just has to "feel threatened" to justify his actions. And sometimes the only person that could refute that is dead. Maybe guns should be required to have a video camera that always records the five minutes before it is used.

  11. #61
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoufOfKhaos View Post
    I won't go over what I didn't bold, because it's not needed - I will agree on the FIRST point that he had every right to contact the police when he suspected something suspicious.

    First point - him ignoring the 911 operator not only looks horrible for this perceived notion that he had no intent to harm Trayvon, it negates him calling the police in the first place; if he was just going to pursue the "suspicious" person anyway, whether or not the police were involved, why involve them? He was told not to pursue - whether he has the LEGAL RIGHT to ignore their instruction is wholly irrelevant.

    Second point - him following Trayvon created a situation that didn't have to be; had Zimmerman simply done as he was advised to do by the operator, Trayvon would more than likely be alive and both man and boy would have gone home. This, by the way, NEGATES your last point - Zimmerman did NOT wait for the cops, because you cannot wait and FOLLOW at the same time. Having a gun does not mean the man could not have thrown the first punch, it just means had things escalated that he had a ready weapon to use. There's no "reasonable doubt" on that.

    Third point - But that's what we're talking about; the illegal act and the intent/reasoning for it. You don't call the police and then go looking for a fight - that's ass backwards. And given the circumstance so far, it sounds like that's what the man did. Now you can say he had the right to do all the things he did, and it a lot of ways i'll agree, but I can also say it also erases this so-called reasonable doubt you claim he has.


    As I said I wasn't there, but can reasonably assume Zimmerman was following Martin to keep him (Martin) in visual contact in order to inform the police of his (martin) whereabouts. His (Zimmerman's) intent was not to confront Martin, but rather alert the police and hopefully (in Zimmerman's eyes) play the hero. There had been an unsolved burglary in the neighbourhood.


    As to the point "You can't wait and follow"..........actually you can, Zimmerman kept a visual on the person he believed to be suspicious, while waiting for the police to arrive on scene.
    I agree, the mere possession of a gun doesn’t mean Zimmerman "couldn't" have thrown the first punch, but his injuries lend credence to the incident time line stated by Zimmerman.
    Reasonable doubt, not certain fact, reasonable doubt.

    You perceive Zimmerman went looking for a fight, I believe he saw someone he thought was suspicious and saw an opportunity to for positive interaction with the local police. There is nothing in Zimmerman's past, that I'm aware of, that indicates a willingness for physical confrontation, the same cannot be said of Martin.

    I believe the verdict will hinge on who initiated the physical confrontation, the balance leans towards Martin.
    Last edited by The Fly; June 11th, 2013 at 08:17 AM.

  12. #62
    JUB Addict HunterM's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    It's like preparing for a hurricane. Whatever the verdict will be...make sure you have a week's worth of food and water in your home. Lock down, hunker down in your basement for 3 to 4 days until the riot is over.

  13. #63
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Didn't really know that much about it, not usually too interested in these types of things. However, since I've just speed-read most of the LONG Wiki article (locked) about the whole event, may as well give an opinion....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

    Turns out not to be as clear-cut against Zimmerman as I always imagined this case was. But that isn't to say he wasn't the clear instigator and provoker of the whole sorry event. Nevertheless multiple eye-witnesses mostly confirm that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him. Backing up that view is Z's injuries, a bloodied nose, black eyes, scratches on the back of his head from him being laid down on his back on the ground. Then there's these contentious 911 audio sounds where yelling for help is heard in the background - but no-one can identify for certain which of them it is.

    I tend to agree with The Fly and ZombieKiller - a sorry mess where no-one comes out good, and both could be said to have been at fault - Trayvon for attacking and punching (understandably though since he was being stalked and confronted by a man) - and Zimmerman for going off on a chase despite being told otherwise, and for blatantly spoiling for a confrontation.

    Verdict will probably be not guilty of the charges (but maybe guilty of a lesser offence and also in a civil case)

    LEAVING ALL THIS ASIDE....

    These types of (in the grand picture of things) insignificant and routine legal cases have a very bad habit in the United States of being conflated by the entire country into a MAJOR national story, fracturing it along racial lines, and then completely exaggerating the impact that the verdict has on the entire nation. It blows the whole thing up into a ridiculous level of importance beyond what it ever should be.

    The most telling and depressing sign of this is that probably (I'm guessing) 90% of African-Americans have already automatically declared T innocent and Z guilty and that (another guess) 60% of whites/other races have already declared exactly the opposite. Plucking those figures out of thin air but I'm describing the tendency for this to be come a racial CONTEST. It should never be portrayed that way, but I've no doubt it will. Speaks volumes of the low state of race relations in some parts of the U.S.

    Then on top of all that you have the amplified consequences of the verdict based on the already amplified case, ESPECIALLY if Z is found innocent, because it then gives sanction to (as I referred to in another thread) frightened white people to think they can legally shoot black people dead where and when they choose. Or at least that is how it will be perceived and portrayed.

    Bottom line.... regardless of what occurred and who is guilty or innocent, this entire case should not be made into a great national black vs. white judgment on race. Doing so actually does terrible harm to race relations and blows racial tension sky-high. One legal case should never have such amount of power.

  14. #64
    JUB Addict 2243's Avatar
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    Didn't really know that much about it, not usually too interested in these types of things. However, since I've just speed-read most of the LONG Wiki article (locked) about the whole event, may as well give an opinion....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

    Turns out not to be as clear-cut against Zimmerman as I always imagined this case was. But that isn't to say he wasn't the clear instigator and provoker of the whole sorry event. Nevertheless multiple eye-witnesses mostly confirm that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him. Backing up that view is Z's injuries, a bloodied nose, black eyes, scratches on the back of his head from him being laid down on his back on the ground. Then there's these contentious 911 audio sounds where yelling for help is heard in the background - but no-one can identify for certain which of them it is.

    I tend to agree with The Fly and ZombieKiller - a sorry mess where no-one comes out good, and both could be said to have been at fault - Trayvon for attacking and punching (understandably though since he was being stalked and confronted by a man) - and Zimmerman for going off on a chase despite being told otherwise, and for blatantly spoiling for a confrontation.

    Verdict will probably be not guilty of the charges (but maybe guilty of a lesser offence and also in a civil case)

    LEAVING ALL THIS ASIDE....

    These types of (in the grand picture of things) insignificant and routine legal cases have a very bad habit in the United States of being conflated by the entire country into a MAJOR national story, fracturing it along racial lines, and then completely exaggerating the impact that the verdict has on the entire nation. It blows the whole thing up into a ridiculous level of importance beyond what it ever should be.

    The most telling and depressing sign of this is that probably (I'm guessing) 90% of African-Americans have already automatically declared T innocent and Z guilty and that (another guess) 60% of whites/other races have already declared exactly the opposite. Plucking those figures out of thin air but I'm describing the tendency for this to be come a racial CONTEST. It should never be portrayed that way, but I've no doubt it will. Speaks volumes of the low state of race relations in some parts of the U.S.

    Then on top of all that you have the amplified consequences of the verdict based on the already amplified case, ESPECIALLY if Z is found innocent, because it then gives sanction to (as I referred to in another thread) frightened white people to think they can legally shoot black people dead where and when they choose. Or at least that is how it will be perceived and portrayed.

    Bottom line.... regardless of what occurred and who is guilty or innocent, this entire case should not be made into a great national black vs. white judgment on race. Doing so actually does terrible harm to race relations and blows racial tension sky-high. One legal case should never have such amount of power.
    ^


  15. #65
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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    ^ Jury selection must have been a nightmare for both the defence and the prosecution. There would have been so very many people to eliminate for one reason or another. I wouldn't be surprised if they went through the entire pool on this one.
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    We might want to ask who was "standing his ground" that day, Trayvon or the man who stalked him?
    Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
    A man killed an unarmed teen, why? Because he was BLACK.
    Would Zimmerman have stalked a nice looking white teen? Hell no.
    Put George's ass where a murder's ass belongs, behind bars.
    If he is found not guilty then I for one will be pissed off, yes, I am concerned.

    That pretty much sums up my opinion.

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    Re: Are you concerned about the George Zimmerman verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    …A man killed an unarmed teen, why? Because he
    You're presuming to psychoanalyse a man you've never met.

    You're psychoanalysing a man via ESP? your remote control?
    .

  18. #68
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    Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    All the discussions here and in CE's & Politics are from months ago.

    I thought it was more important than that.
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?



    I hear that Jeantel's testimony was a "labyrinth of cultural nuances".

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3525805.html
    .

  20. #70
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post


    I hear that Jeantel's testimony was a "labyrinth of cultural nuances".

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3525805.html

    She was a horrible witness. Her communication skills are non-existent, she's rude, disrespectful, and dishonest, basically a train wreck on the stand. The prosecution has nothing to hang their collective hats on. Every prosecution witness has clearly presented a case of reasonable doubt.
    Last edited by The Fly; July 1st, 2013 at 06:50 AM.

  21. #71
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post

    Both sides have little to agree on, but they do agree on the following. GZ admitted that he was following TM. At one point, TM took off running and GZ pursued. TM then stopped, turned and demanded why GZ was following him. What happened after was where the stories split off.


    All that having been said, what the defense did to Rachel Jeantel was disgusting. The defense lawyer purposefully kept her on the stand for hours and hours making her reveal to the world her way of talking. Considering the jury is mostly white, I'm convinced the defense was trying to bring out the inner, hidden, and latent racist attitude of the jury.



    There is not one shred of evidence, it hasn't even been suggested, that Martin ran and Zimmerman gave chase. Zimmerman followed Martin, there's a big difference between chased and followed.

    The defence kept Jeanteal on the stand to expose her for the lier that she is. If her attitude, personality, and general demeanour put off the jury, so be it.

    As to the "latent racist attitude", who called who a "cracker"? The only evidence of racist epithets are in regards to Martin. The press has tried to paint Zimmerman as a racist but has fallen flat, even after they manipulated 911 calls.



    The trial isn't over, but so far it seems Martin was angry that Zimmerman was following him, and initiated the physical confrontation resulting in his own death.

  22. #72
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    She was a horrible witness. Her communication skills are non-existent, she's rude, disrespectful, and dishonest, basically a train wreck on the stand. The prosecution has nothing to hang their collective hats on. Every prosecution witness has clearly presented a case of reasonable doubt.
    I think that is exactly what makes her completely genuine.


    Additionally, if you are the neighborhood watch when you approach someone and they ask who are you, why are you following me? Wouldn't you state clearly you are the neighborhood watch? Finally, if the police dispatch directed you not to follow the person then why would you do so? Trayvon MIGHT have stated his father lived there and he was going to his home. Then Zimmerman would be speaking to a guest of a resident and have zero reason to be neighborhood watching.

    George Zimmerman was looking for conflict and he found it. Now I hope the justice system funds him as well. They call it neighborhood watch for a reason. The same reason it is not referred to as neighborhood vigilantes.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  23. #73
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Chase, follow, whatever. At one point everyone agreed that TM ran off. GZ admitted on the 911 call he made that he was "following" TM. Happy?


    Well, they confirmed that she lied about 2 things during the investigation: her age and the reason why she didn't go to TM's funeral. How does this invalidate the main core of her story?


    Here's the thing. Just because a politically incorrect word was used doesn't mean it was used in a racist manner. First of all, the word cracker isn't even offensive. It reminds white people of a time when they used to own land and people. How is that even come close to being offensive?

    Secondly, different people from different backgrounds talk differently. Trying to superimpose your cultural political correctness on the way other people of other backgrounds talk is called ethnocentric. English is Rachel Jeantel's 3rd language.

    Having been born and raised in a completely different country and completely different culture and language, I saw this as little better than when the white kids at school made fun of my broken English when I first came here. They would purposely ask me to say something and then laugh about it. Heck, I'm a 30 year old adult and there are still white adults trying to trap me into saying something funny so they could laugh by asking me "how do you say this in your language, how do you say that in your language?"

    Watching the testimony of RJ was kinda painful to me, because it looked exactly like my experiences dealing with ethnocentric white folks.

    That said, her testimony was genuine. She didn't try to rose it up like most people would have done.


    Says the guy who shot him. You started out your post with there's no evidence for this, there's no evidence for that, and presented a "fact" that came straight from the guy who shot the gun. TM isn't here to defend himself, so I guess you have a valid point there.

    That said, even if TM initiated the physical contact, it was over self defense. You're a 130lb kid who just bought iced tea and skittles for your little brother and you're on your way back to your dad's place. There's some creep that is over 200lb chasing following you. TM was within his right to fight back (stand your ground law).

    Again, I say go for manslaughter, put him on probation, and call it a day.

    Are you actually following the trial, or getting info from 3rd party sources?

    The fact that Jeanteal lied, regardless of how many times, undercuts her entire testimony.

    "cracker isn't even offensive" really? According to who? Are you saying you can determine whether or not someone else has the right to be offended?

    "having been born in a completely different country" Who? Jeanteal was born and raised in Miami, Fla. English is not her 3rd language.

    What was he (TM) defending himself from? Being followed? I am unaware of assault being a reasonable defence to being followed.

    Zimmermans videotaped (by the police) re-enactment seems truthful. The supposed conversation between them is claimed to be;
    Zimmerman lost eyesight of him only to find he had walked past TM in the dark.
    Supposedly TM said "what's your problem?". Zimmerman said "I don't have a problem", and Martin said "you do now", and attacked him. Is this 100% true? I don't know, I wasn't there, but it seems reasonable.

  24. #74
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    What does "cracker" mean?
    .

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The witness is 19 and a Junior in high school--she has serious learning disabilities---she can not read very well and can only read printed words not script---the defense lawyer was taking full advantage of this---let's go easy on her.

  26. #76
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    A simple crime like this should be dealt with quickly and no need to waste so much money.
    Maybe 20 years jail for the crime and everyone should move on.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  27. #77
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    The only thing I've heard was someone in the media observing the fact that George Zimmerman is now a clean shaven fat guy, than the lean five oclock shadow menace as pictured during his arraignment some while ago.

    Before


    Recently



    He looks like Lou Costello



  28. #78
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    "Us minority folk"?.........I am one of "us minority folk". You apparently believe me to be White. Yours is a prejudicial response, just like George Zimmerman. Glass houses.

    When Zimmerman followed Martin he did so because of prejudice. He prejudged that a Black man, unknown to him, walking through his gated neighbourhood, was probably up to no good. Prejudice is a ugly mind set, but it's not a crime.

    As to the lieing, people do it all the time, agreed, big lies and little lies, but lies under oath are different...Ask Martha Stewart.

    Zimmerman claims he was attacked. No prosecution witness, so far has refuted that claim, quite to the contrary. Most of the prosecution witnesses have said he's being truthful.

    The core of the criminal complaint is the shooting. IF, Zimmerman was being assaulted when he fired the shot, he's within the confines of the law, a stupid law yes, but still the law.

    It seems that people don't care what the facts are, they want him prosecuted for being a prejudiced jerk.

  29. #79
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    20 years? This is a bit excessive don't you think? Just put him on probation.
    umm he followed the guy and gunned him down in cold blood.
    Simple case. 20 years still stand unless he is very remorseful.


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  30. #80
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Bottom Line:

    This is what happens when two hot-heads clash and one has a gun. One ends up dead.
    If they both had guns they'd both be dead.
    If neither had a gun we wouldn't be discussing it.


  31. #81
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cityboy-stl View Post
    Bottom Line:

    This is what happens when two hot-heads clash and one has a gun. One ends up dead.
    If they both had guns they'd both be dead.
    If neither had a gun we wouldn't be discussing it.
    According to what i have read,
    the one with a gun was following/stalking the other guy


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    umm he followed the guy and gunned him down in cold blood.
    Simple case. 20 years still stand unless he is very remorseful.


    Do you know what "in cold blood" means?

    You don't seem too bright.

  33. #83
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Consider that this was almost a COLD CASE, before it finally got noticed. I think it was two or three months after the fact, before anybody outside of central Florida took notice.

    I have this ugly feeling that he's going to end up walking away from all of this, entirely free. Though, at the very least, if that happens, it happens only after he's been "run through the wringer" a few times. (sorry, rather archaic saying nowadays...)
    "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." -The Scarecrow, THE WIZARD OF OZ, 1939

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    Make, for a man, a fire - and he'll be warm for a few hours. Set a man afire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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  34. #84
    Look Away To The Moon. MoufOfKhaos's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cityboy-stl View Post
    Bottom Line:

    This is what happens when two hot-heads clash and one has a gun. One ends up dead.
    If they both had guns they'd both be dead.
    If neither had a gun we wouldn't be discussing it.
    Uh, no. This is what happens when someone assumes he has more power than he does, gets into a fight that he could have avoided and was advised not to get into, and then ends up shooting that person and is now trying to say he felt "threatened".

    I would think that this case and waste of life was wholly avoidable if the man had just followed SIMPLE instructions, but apparently some people seem to think character assassination will absolve the man of his many critical errors.

    And should that happen, hell help Central Florida.
    "There’s death on the horizon,

    and I’ll run to behold your sacrifice..."

  35. #85
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    My opinion on this issue is that Trayvon Martin feels he is being stalked by a strange man. The man is not wearing a police uniform, and for all that Trayvon knows, could be a mugger. In terror, Trayvon tries to defend himself and gets killed. If George Zimmerman didn't take it upon himself to play "Policeman" and stalk this poor guy, none of this would have happened. I think George will be found guilty.

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    JUB Addict Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    If it had been a charge of involuntary manslaughter, I would have hoped for him to be found guilty. But since it's 2nd degree murder charge, I sincerely hope he goes free. Life in prison is not an appropriate justice for this case.
    Involuntary manslaughter requires that you didn't intend to do the thing that led to the other person's death. So if the gun had gone off without intent but through Z's negligence, that would justify involuntary manslaughter.

    He doesn't deny pulling the trigger on purpose. That's voluntary manslaughter, even if he didn't intend Martin's death. IANAL; TINLA

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eddielee View Post
    My opinion on this issue is that Trayvon Martin feels he is being stalked by a strange man. The man is not wearing a police uniform, and for all that Trayvon knows, could be a mugger. In terror, Trayvon tries to defend himself and gets killed. If George Zimmerman didn't take it upon himself to play "Policeman" and stalk this poor guy, none of this would have happened. I think George will be found guilty.
    I share your assessment of the situation but not your optimism regarding justice.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  37. #87
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ That's quite the message: shoot someone dead and get probation.

    This way, even if Zimmerman is found 'not guilty', it's sending the message that, if you shoot someone dead, we're going to make you prove that you felt your life was in danger.
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

  38. #88
    huh?
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Zimmerman stalked and killed Trayvon, he said it on a taped police line. He said, this guy is looking for trouble, he's acting suspiciously, I'm tired of these assholes getting away. He made several very telling statements on taped lines. he was told to stop following him, yet he didn't. He pursued and scared Trayvon to the point he felt he needed to hide from Zimmerman, Trayvon confronted him, Zimmerman attacked, Trayvon fought back and Zimmerman shot and killed him. Seems at one point Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman hitting him and that's how he got banged up.
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  39. #89
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Today was very interesting in court. The prosecution is about to prove that Zimmerman lied about knowledge of Florida's Stand Your Ground policy/law. In a very telling interview with Sean Hannity in 2012, GZ said he had no knowledge of such a law as of the night of the murder. He is a cop wannabe and took classes that discussed Stand Your Ground and allegedly wrote a paper about them -- before the murder.

    If you watch this interview on YouTube, it's stunning how little remorse GZ has. He actually said that what happened was "God's will." He also stated that he did NOT regret going after Trayvon Martin AND that he did NOT regret having a gun that fateful night.

    The all female jury will hopefully find this tool guilty.
    Last edited by Ellybelly909; July 2nd, 2013 at 07:43 PM.
    "Masturbation, at least it's sex with someone I love!"

  40. #90
    huh?
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Maybe Trayvon was standing his ground and Zimmerman shot him. I think 2nd degree murder is the right charge and GZ, as we are now calling him, should be found guilty. I really think GZ wanted to shoot someone, anyone. He thought it would make him a neighborhood hero.
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Voluntary manslaughter carries a sentence of about 25 years. I'm sorry, but this seems a bit excessive. Just put him on probation.
    Involuntary manslaughter would get him less time but in Florida--because he killed a 17 year old kid---(under 18 years old) if convicted he can get 30 years.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    If the jury understands its duty to find not guilty in the absence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it will not convict him. The facts simply do not amount to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There is a better than reasonable probability that he shot in self defense.

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    There is a better than reasonable probability that he shot in self defense.
    Too bad that the victim isn't alive to offer his version. The jury will hear Zimmerman's version of the events, but Tayvon's version is pure conjecture. The only option left to the prosecution is to discredit Zimmerman's testimony. That's the problem with cases such as this. The victims are never available to defend themselves.
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

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    JUB Addict Críostóir's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller View Post
    Voluntary manslaughter carries a sentence of about 25 years. I'm sorry, but this seems a bit excessive. Just put him on probation.
    So you're basing your theory of which crime applies on the available sentence? There are two things wrong with that: 1. He did whichever one he did, and the fact that it was a black boy doesn't actually change what crime it is. 2. You do know that judges have discretion in sentencing, right? They can evaluate mitigating factors, if any, and shorten the sentence accordingly.

    Personally I wish the judge were a black woman with a teenage son.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  45. #95
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellybelly909 View Post
    If you watch this interview on YouTube, it's stunning how little remorse GZ has. He actually said that what happened was "God's will." He also stated that he did NOT regret going after Trayvon Martin AND that he did NOT regret having a gun that fateful night.
    I wonder if he'll think a long prison sentence is "God's will" too. Let's be sure and tell him it is if he gets one.

    It wasn't God's fucking will. It was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S CHOICES that led to the death of Trayvon Martin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellybelly909 View Post
    The all female jury will hopefully find this tool guilty.
    Are any of them black? With teenage sons? I hope so.

    Quote Originally Posted by nycguydowntown View Post
    Involuntary manslaughter would get him less time but in Florida--because he killed a 17 year old kid---(under 18 years old) if convicted he can get 30 years.
    I didn't know that. I'm glad to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If the jury understands its duty to find not guilty in the absence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it will not convict him. The facts simply do not amount to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There is a better than reasonable probability that he shot in self defense.
    I don't agree. And I think the kind of aggressive harassment, terrorizing, and provocation he subjected Martin to should undermine any claim of self-defense. It depends on the judge's instructions to the jury...who will decide what conclusion the facts support, not you or me.
    ____
    If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. -- Voltaire (1694-1778).

  46. #96
    JUB Addict loveguys72's Avatar
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Based on what I've heard and seen to date, my opinion hasn't changed from when this story broke: Zimmerman is guilty of voluntary manslaughter. He willfully and knowingly engaged in reckless conduct which directly resulted in the death of another. The only reason second degree murder is a stretch is that there is question regarding Zimmerman's intent. Did he pursue Martin with the intent to kill him? The prosecution knows this, which is why the top count is second degree murder with a lesser included charge of voluntary manslaughter. The prosecution fully expects the jury will be uncomfortable with the top count, and so will go for the lesser charge.

  47. #97
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ I wonder how they chose the jury? I've seen cases where choosing the jurors takes longer than the case itself.
    .

  48. #98
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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Well, Ive been watching the trial everyday. I have HLN on as I type this. Its very important to me.
    " For all there is to feel, let it be felt"
    ― Emeli Sande

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    ^ Yes. Why?
    .

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    Re: Nothing on Trayvon Martin x George Zimmerman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Críostóir View Post
    Personally I wish the judge were a black woman with a teenage son.
    Not sure what happened to "he did whichever one he did."

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