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  1. #51
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemothepanda View Post
    On the one hand, England, and most of western Europe to a certain degree, is having an issue with immigration. Many are from places like Pakistan or Nigeria where religion, like Islam, plays a major role. There have been cases of hyper-religious immigrants clashing with the more secular people of England; the infamous case of an English soldier being killed in the streets by an immigrant for England's actions in the Middle East is such an example, along with issues with the openly gay population. I don't agree with this man on many things, but there is a culture clash going on that is being exacerbated by immigration.

    However on the other, Europe is greying and shrinking like every other developed part of the world. Immigrants help fill in the spots left and do provide a needed jolt for a nation's economy, that's why England has it's current immigration policy in the first place. Plus, there are many children and children's children of immigrants that've embraced English culture. Sadly, you have people like in the BNP trying to deport them because on the incredibly off chance that they could be connected to some radical terrorist group, which does not help matters in the slightest. People are not going to assimilate if they feel unwelcomed. It's a very tenacious situation.

    I personally feel that England does need to curb the number of people coming into its borders. It's not a big country. Culture aside, having all these peoples of different backgrounds coming in at once is not conducive to assimilation. The whole bout on Englishmen being minorities in their own country is bullshit, but when you can't walk down the street without feeling "at home" anymore, it does fuel the fires.
    Ironically, the killers of Lee Rigby were completely assimilated. It was only when both men "converted" to a particularly virulent strain of Islam, that they developed a loathing for their adopted Country and which ultimately lead to their actions in Woolwich. This fact only strengthens my belief that Islam is incompatible with the values of a free and open society. In a previous post, I stated that I had no answers to the UK`s present difficulties...well...that`s not strictly true. Unfortunately, my vision of a RIGIDLY secular state where, among other things, such "conversions" are not so easily tolerated, does not sit easily with the free and open society I have previously mentioned. But what the of it? If it came down to a choice between religious freedoms and social freedoms, I certainly know where I stand.

  2. #52
    On the Prowl Nemothepanda's Avatar
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseYouLikeIt View Post
    Ironically, the killers of Lee Rigby were completely assimilated. It was only when both men "converted" to a particularly virulent strain of Islam, that they developed a loathing for their adopted Country and which ultimately lead to their actions in Woolwich. This fact only strengthens my belief that Islam is incompatible with the values of a free and open society. In a previous post, I stated that I had no answers to the UK`s present difficulties...well...that`s not strictly true. Unfortunately, my vision of a RIGIDLY secular state where, among other things, such "conversions" are not so easily tolerated, does not sit easily with the free and open society I have previously mentioned. But what the of it? If it came down to a choice between religious freedoms and social freedoms, I certainly know where I stand.
    I guess it depends on how common these kinds of conversions are, but that would mean invading the privacy and religious freedoms of many people which I don't approve of. Islam definitely needs to review itself if it wants a harmonious existence in the west. As I recall, one of the first gay couples married in France where gay, but I maybe wrong on that, but my point is that there are Muslims that do fine in places like London. The issue is that you have the religion being focused too much in where the immigrants came from, rather than where they are now.

  3. #53
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    No, you get off.
    Take your own advice and stop acting like the people you wish to lecture. Example is the best teacher, or so they say.

    And I have answered my share of questions about abortion, and I have nothing more to say on the matter, also, please don't turn this thread into another abortion-discussion. This thread has a basically different theme and I don't wish to see it burn.

    Also, you are open to many things, including reason, right until you like the way reason sounds. You are also very good at passing judgements that you know to be wrong.
    Now please get off your high horse and stick one of your musical instruments up to your egocentric, arrogant black hole.
    You wretch.

    Time for me to leave this community. I had too many posts removed without any reason.
    If all gay people were like you, I would actually work against you.
    Yeah, if that's how little it takes to turn you into a screeching rude mess, maybe this forum is not for you.
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  4. #54
    mitchymo
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Immigration is one of the primary concerns of the british electorate right now, and has been for several years. Unfortunately, its hard to have a reasonable debate on it, since too many racists are making the case, and too many anti-racists (if you like) are dismissing the arguments which are shared concerns. Its almost as if, if racists say it, you then can't, otherwise you MUST be.
    What the guy in the video says has some validity, so to dismiss him, regardless of being racist or not, is nothing but ignorant to do.

    For me, immigration hasn't been handled very well, since it was hugely underestimated how many eastern europeans were going to arrive in the UK since the EU enlarged in 2004. It should have been expected however, since it wasn't just Poland joining that year (contrary to many dumb people who blame the Polish for everything). It was the largest expansion that the EU has ever had, and i know that Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Malta and Cyprus also joined in that year.
    This has lead to immigration being brought to the fore by the likes of UKIP (uk independence party) as well as a number of Conservatives. This plays right into the hands of bigotted parties, but it also bears an importance to ordinary non-bigotted people, concerned not so much by the immigration of people, but the importation of negative culture. Most people want the UK to remain 'our' country, where our country retains a culture of Western values (as opposed to the bigots who want an english only, only white' culture).

    The primary concern for me is Islam. I'm certain it is for most uk citizens also. As far as the faith goes, it is no different to me as any other religion. I'm not concerned that people adhere to religion, and i won't treat people with less respect for it etc. But Islam in its radical form is dangerous.
    Its all very well and good to argue that a religion is fundamentally good, but its hard to believe that when the faith is then abused for reasons that are claimed to be in the name of it. Even when we can accept that its a mere excuse for bad people to get their way, it still doesn't detract from the fact that the faith has failed to control radical forms of practice. Forms which not only create harsh realities for people within islamic countries, but we are seeing those radical beliefs spreading to our own shores. Something has got to be wrong somewhere. And whilst i accept that western foreign policy is providing the catalyst for homegrown terrorism to be spread, its being done by those who share values with those far from outside of the West.

    I cannot wait for a future where zero countries are governed by the influence of religious beliefs.
    The sooner that the regime in Iran changes, the better. Its no good rotating leadership when the Ayatollah always has the ultimate say. It'd be like the Queen turning around and saying tough shit, even if all the main parties voted for gay marriage.
    Last edited by mitchymo; June 23rd, 2013 at 02:46 PM.

  5. #55
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Remember that the shrinking population is largely because abortion has become a sacred cow of the liberals.
    The issue is not prominent on their website. (In fact, I donít even see it listed.)


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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    I heartily agree with the person in the movie in the OP; enough is enough.

    Muslim citizens that threaten us must be punished and made harmless.

  7. #57
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post

    For me, immigration hasn't been handled very well, since it was hugely underestimated how many eastern europeans were going to arrive in the UK since the EU enlarged in 2004. It should have been expected however, since it wasn't just Poland joining that year (contrary to many dumb people who blame the Polish for everything). It was the largest expansion that the EU has ever had, and i know that Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Malta and Cyprus also joined in that year.
    This has lead to immigration being brought to the fore by the likes of UKIP (uk independence party) as well as a number of Conservatives. This plays right into the hands of bigotted parties, but it also bears an importance to ordinary non-bigotted people, concerned not so much by the immigration of people, but the importation of negative culture. Most people want the UK to remain 'our' country, where our country retains a culture of Western values (as opposed to the bigots who want an english only, only white' culture).
    It truly is interesting reading people's opinions about issues not from the country you reside in. (No sarcasm)

    I just couldn't help but notice the irony of this paragraph alone, as an American, complaining about immigrants. The British tried flooding this land and displacing Native Americans, without their permission, decimating their populations, cultures and livelihoods. Now, I don't blame you or anyone living which would be silly. I just couldn't help but point that out as someone who lives in a state with the third most Native Americans in it.

    The UK should not subjugate people across the globe by having a monarch, even if it's a figurehead, as people's head of state. It's 2013, not 1013. For such a primitive practice being extended to so many non-British people around the globe, it's kind of ironic that you take in these religious fanatics, who themselves are very primitive.

    Generally speaking, it seems that Britain lets everyone and their mother into the country. That's a mistake. They should only let skilled workers in. My doctor is Iranian and the likelihood she'd become a killer is far less than some thug like the one that killed that British soldier a few weeks ago. A doctor, who will live pretty comfortably here, probably won't be a target of law enforcement and rightfully so.

    I'm on Britain's side here. I read somewhere, probably on The Guardian, about how much money the UK has spent trying to assimilating these "people" into mainstream British society. That right there is admission of a failure, in my opinion. The UK has to start shipping them back to wherever they came from, even for minor offenses. I have traveled the world and followed the rules of whatever country I am in to a T. I couldn't ever imagine going to a country, rejecting its customers, telling the people what I will and won't do, like that Jordanian cleric, who seems to have some type of immunity from his nonsense.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 23rd, 2013 at 05:09 PM.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Immigration is one of the primary concerns of the british electorate right now, and has been for several years. Unfortunately, its hard to have a reasonable debate on it, since too many racists are making the case, and too many anti-racists (if you like) are dismissing the arguments which are shared concerns. Its almost as if, if racists say it, you then can't, otherwise you MUST be.
    What the guy in the video says has some validity, so to dismiss him, regardless of being racist or not, is nothing but ignorant to do.

    For me, immigration hasn't been handled very well, since it was hugely underestimated how many eastern europeans were going to arrive in the UK since the EU enlarged in 2004. It should have been expected however, since it wasn't just Poland joining that year (contrary to many dumb people who blame the Polish for everything). It was the largest expansion that the EU has ever had, and i know that Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Malta and Cyprus also joined in that year.
    This has lead to immigration being brought to the fore by the likes of UKIP (uk independence party) as well as a number of Conservatives. This plays right into the hands of bigotted parties, but it also bears an importance to ordinary non-bigotted people, concerned not so much by the immigration of people, but the importation of negative culture. Most people want the UK to remain 'our' country, where our country retains a culture of Western values (as opposed to the bigots who want an english only, only white' culture).

    The primary concern for me is Islam. I'm certain it is for most uk citizens also. As far as the faith goes, it is no different to me as any other religion. I'm not concerned that people adhere to religion, and i won't treat people with less respect for it etc. But Islam in its radical form is dangerous.
    Its all very well and good to argue that a religion is fundamentally good, but its hard to believe that when the faith is then abused for reasons that are claimed to be in the name of it. Even when we can accept that its a mere excuse for bad people to get their way, it still doesn't detract from the fact that the faith has failed to control radical forms of practice. Forms which not only create harsh realities for people within islamic countries, but we are seeing those radical beliefs spreading to our own shores. Something has got to be wrong somewhere. And whilst i accept that western foreign policy is providing the catalyst for homegrown terrorism to be spread, its being done by those who share values with those far from outside of the West.

    I cannot wait for a future where zero countries are governed by the influence of religious beliefs.
    The sooner that the regime in Iran changes, the better. Its no good rotating leadership when the Ayatollah always has the ultimate say. It'd be like the Queen turning around and saying tough shit, even if all the main parties voted for gay marriage.
    Great post.
    The islamist would say you are a racist.

    Anyway, i don't think Iran is as bad as Saudi Arabia for spreading Islam.


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  9. #59
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Yes Lostlover I agree it IS 2013 not 1013 as you say.

    How ironic, then, that your espoused view is like from 1713 or 1813 - you seem to think we're still in the age of an aggressive and tyrannical British Empire conquering and colonising the world, subjugating peoples and cultures, crushing dissent, and all with a despotic bloodthirsty monarch at the all-powerful throne.

    It might have passed you by, but modern 21st century European monarchies are progressive and forward-looking, with little or no powers left except for the ceremonial. And instead of plotting global supremacy, our royal families are now patrons of charities, health, achievement, skills, industry, business, culture, the arts - you name it.

    Time to leave your grudges and animosity from the past behind.

  10. #60
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    I will begin this post with a disclaimer, I only watched the video posted in the opening post. I am basing all my opinions on the content of that video.

    Another thing, this is directed at two individuals in particular, this thread is NOT about abortion. Refrain from trying to derail this thread by repeatedly bringing abortion into the thread. You are out of line.

    Now, I see this thread being about three issues, Racism, Nationalism, and Immigration.

    The definition of Racism is: rac∑ism /ˈrāˌsizəm/ Noun:
    1.The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
    2.Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.
    Synonyms: racialism

    The definition of nationalism is as follows: na∑tion∑al∑ism /ˈnaSHənəˌlizəm/ Noun
    1.Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
    2.An extreme form of this, esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
    Synonyms: patriotism

    Based on the evidence in the video, I fail to find evidence of Racism. I do however find evidence of nationalism, The epithet of being racist is thrown about wildly in society, usually by people who want to halt conversation that doesn't agree with their views. I have problems with people saying that we need to stop immigration. Nearly every light skinned person on the continents of North America, South America, Africa, and Australia is a descendant of a European Immigrant. Now, these seem to be the people that yell the loudest that we need to stop immigration. Also, Borders are a man made constraint. These lines were placed by men who were in "power" with their own best interests in mind. This is done with out the interests of the indigenous peoples in mind, especially in the United States, where the territories of the indigenous peoples were completely ignored and land was taken from them without compensation. The damage is done now, we cannot go back to the way things were, but we can look at history and learn from it to improve the way we do things in the future. Yes, there probably need to be changes to immigration, but what they are and how they should work I do not know.

  11. #61
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    Yes Lostlover I agree it IS 2013 not 1013 as you say.

    How ironic, then, that your espoused view is like from 1713 or 1813 - you seem to think we're still in the age of an aggressive and tyrannical British Empire conquering and colonising the world, subjugating peoples and cultures, crushing dissent, and all with a despotic bloodthirsty monarch at the all-powerful throne.

    It might have passed you by, but modern 21st century European monarchies are progressive and forward-looking, with little or no powers left except for the ceremonial. And instead of plotting global supremacy, our royal families are now patrons of charities, health, achievement, skills, industry, business, culture, the arts - you name it.

    Time to leave your grudges and animosity from the past behind.
    Grudges with who? The UK is 1/5 the size of the US population-wise, 1/45 by land mass, and about 1/6 by economic output. Additionally, the UK does the US government's bidding even when it's criminal, like the Iraq War. Who's holding a grudge and over what then?

    Let that Disneyland, fairy tale crap go. It's 2013. Not 1013.

    I'm sure today's Islam is more progressive than Mohammed's, but that doesn't make it any more desirable.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 23rd, 2013 at 09:14 PM.
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  12. #62
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    I heartily agree with the person in the movie in the OP; enough is enough.

    Muslim citizens that threaten us must be punished and made harmless.
    All criminals should be processed through the criminal justice system including those who espouse atheist or theistic beliefs.

  13. #63
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    All criminals should be processed through the criminal justice system including those who espouse atheist or theistic beliefs.
    No-one would disagree with that, unfortunately there is a move amongst radical Islamist elements to promote Sharia law, here in the West. If we end up with a situation where muslim citizens of the UK are subject to a religiously based judicial system, even for relatively minor "property law" matters, then we really will have taken a step back 1000 years.

  14. #64
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseYouLikeIt View Post
    No-one would disagree with that, unfortunately there is a move amongst radical Islamist elements to promote Sharia law, here in the West. If we end up with a situation where muslim citizens of the UK are subject to a religiously based judicial system, even for relatively minor "property law" matters, then we really will have taken a step back 1000 years.
    ^So well said .
    Since that barbaric murder of young Lee Rigby the amount of violence against Muslims has risen sharply , i do not know if anyone has had the chance to watch the videos taken with cell-phones right after the attack .

    No remorse , just bloodthirsty happiness , though under Shariac Law the fucker would have been be-headed within 48 hrs , and in public by the *Religious Police* , am not saying that is right , but it was one of the most horrific things i have watched in a long time .

  15. #65

    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    I find it ironic that conservatives wail and complain about immigrants harming our culture and way of life and not integrating. Conservatives have undermined the two of the most important institutions in America that have integrated new immigrants into our society and helped them acculturate to their new country, public education and the trade union movement.

  16. #66
    mitchymo
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseYouLikeIt View Post
    If we end up with a situation where muslim citizens of the UK are subject to a religiously based judicial system, even for relatively minor "property law" matters, then we really will have taken a step back 1000 years.
    You DO realise that there are already at least 3 or 4 sharia law courts in the UK? There is one in London, one in Birmingham and one in Cardiff i believe, maybe a couple others up north. Muslims have to consent to their case being heard there, so if one party wants the trial held there, the oppposing party, defendant or whatever has to give consent first, otherwise its dealt with in a british court. This is insanity to me. It flies in the face of one law for all. Furthermore, the culture within Islam does not instill any faith that women aren't forced under duress to attending a sharia court, which heavily favours men. The court cannot impose sentences that are against british standard sentencing, but they can choose to always enforce maximum penalty or excessive leniency within that scope.
    It seems like the previous Labour government bent over backward to accomodate Islam, creating their usual mess in the process. The same government that pushed for gay equality by giving us civil partnerships instead of gay marriage. The same government that failed to regulate the banks and left the treasury empty on their way out of office. The same government that took us to war in Iraq for WMD that didn't exist. I have no faith in the Labour party. I'm hoping to see the next couple of general elections result in coalition government again, until the Lib Dems replace Labour as the party of opposition.
    Last edited by mitchymo; June 24th, 2013 at 04:58 AM.

  17. #67

    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I find it ironic that conservatives wail and complain about immigrants harming our culture and way of life and not integrating. Conservatives have undermined the two of the most important institutions in America that have integrated new immigrants into our society and helped them acculturate to their new country, public education and the trade union movement.
    Immigration is not the most important thing. The only thing which has weakened education and the unions, is their enormous success. The Unions have achieved an almost complete victory against their dread enemy, heavy industry. But, once you have totally defeated an enemy, you cannot keep squeezing the life out. GM is in its death throes, but the unions can keep squeezing as long as the Democrat pours tax money into the company for the union to squeeze out. Our education system is the most expensive and successful in the world--measured from the point of view of the teachers union. The teachers see their goal is to teach political correctness and achieve equality of education, rather than undemocratic stuff like math, science, history. Some students are less capable of learning the tough stuff, so it is better to teach easy stuff and achieve equality.
    Last edited by Benvolio; June 24th, 2013 at 05:09 AM.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseYouLikeIt View Post
    No-one would disagree with that, unfortunately there is a move amongst radical Islamist elements to promote Sharia law, here in the West. If we end up with a situation where muslim citizens of the UK are subject to a religiously based judicial system, even for relatively minor "property law" matters, then we really will have taken a step back 1000 years.
    Doesn't the confusion proceed from the UK legal system allowing for this kind of religious justice in some cases?

  19. #69
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    Doesn't the confusion proceed from the UK legal system allowing for this kind of religious justice in some cases?
    The Sharia thing in the UK (and Commonwealth countries like Canada) is based on the very British principle of the courts of law not getting involved when people can settle their differences by themselves.

    So if a divorcing couple agree to have their fates decided by some crazy imam, why should the Courts interfere? They would take the same approach if the couple split their assets on the flip of a coin, or if they asked for a divorce from a circus clown, or a random passenger on public transit, or whose frog reaches the finish line first in a frog-hopping contest.

    On one hand it is nice to know the law is not hovering over every decision two people make in private, but once it is established that the entire system is inherently bonkers, sexist, and incapable of delivering an equitable outcome, then it makes more sense to discourage its use.

    But what do you do with religious insanity anyway? A court could order formal legal custody to the mother and half the matrimonial assets plus child support. But what stops her from giving the children and house over to her ex husband once the divorce is settled if she decides that is what she must do to be sharia-compliant? What stops her from permitting the children to travel to Patriarchistan where, inshallah, full custody will be granted immediately to the father?

    You can forbid dual citizenship but the receiving country doesn't have to abide by that.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    ^ Any legislation based on Sharia contradicts established U.K. legislation and jurisprudence in all but the most trivial of matters.

    It's the duty of our elected representatives to stand up to defend the values that have sired the modern social democratic state.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    But do you see the difference between legislation and what people do privately?

    No law in any commonwealth country has ever obliged people to accept the terms of Sharia in any legal matter. There is literally no legislation "based on" Sharia. However in some cases, people have been permitted to use those principles if they declare that they'd like to.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    ^ The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has Sharia-based legislation, and I'm sure so do other Islamic member states.

  23. #73
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    ^ The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has Sharia-based legislation, and I'm sure so do other Islamic member states.
    That for many years UK Jews have been granted the right to exercise Mosaic Law practices for the Jewish community it would appear equitable to me to grant the same rights to UK Muslims particularly as we are discussing matters of divorce and precious little else.

    Let's not let our imagination run wild...particularly those posters who daily remind us of their anti Muslim prejudices.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    ^ The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has Sharia-based legislation, and I'm sure so do other Islamic member states.
    Oh, quite right. I meant Commonwealth Realms, not Commonwealth Countries.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    It may interest the anti Muslim brigade here to know that I have an Iranian friend who is a member of the Armenian community living in Isfahan who are Christian and have been granted the legal right by the Islamic Republic of Iran to exercise their own Christian customs pertaining to such matters as marriage and divorce.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Here's a link to the appropriate Sharia Law site:

    http://www.islamic-sharia.org/

    I quote:

    Welcome to the Islamic Sharia Council. The Islamic Shari'a Council was formed to solve the matrimonial problems of Muslims living in the United Kingdom in the light of Islamic family law. The council is made up of members from all of the major schools of Islamic legal thought (mad'hab) and is widely accepted as an authoritative body with regards to Islamic law.



    unquote

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    It may interest the anti Muslim brigade here to know that I have an Iranian friend who is a member of the Armenian community living in Isfahan who are Christian and have been granted the legal right by the Islamic Republic of Iran to exercise their own Christian customs pertaining to such matters as marriage and divorce.

    Damned by faint praise, is the term that comes to mind.

    Get back to me when Iran would allow that person to convert to Islam, then back to Christianity, then marry an atheist.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Here's a link to the appropriate Sharia Law site:

    http://www.islamic-sharia.org/

    I quote:

    Welcome to the Islamic Sharia Council. The Islamic Shari'a Council was formed to solve the matrimonial problems of Muslims living in the United Kingdom in the light of Islamic family law. The council is made up of members from all of the major schools of Islamic legal thought (mad'hab) and is widely accepted as an authoritative body with regards to Islamic law.



    unquote
    But you understand this isn't really law. It has no force of law, it is just custom that people can opt in to. It is the choice to opt which may carry the force of law if it leads to a contract regarding some matter of family business.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Damned by faint praise, is the term that comes to mind.

    Get back to me when Iran would allow that person to convert to Islam, then back to Christianity, then marry an atheist.
    Do you know of an Iranian who has faced this dilemma?

    Or are you offering us a sample of might be the case in Iran based upon your assumptions as an evangelical atheist?

    Most Iranian minority communities socialise and marry within their own communities ensuring that they do not have to face difficulties.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    But you understand this isn't really law. It has no force of law, it is just custom that people can opt in to. It is the choice to opt which may carry the force of law if it leads to a contract regarding some matter of family business.
    Within Orthodox Jewish and Muslim communities these customs are respected and binding upon the family and community.

    That such religious customs have not been legislated into law by Parliament does not lessen their impact on their respective communities.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Do you know of an Iranian who has faced this dilemma?

    Or are you offering us a sample of might be the case in Iran based upon your assumptions as an evangelical atheist?

    Most Iranian minority communities socialise and marry within their own communities ensuring that they do not have to face difficulties.
    It is not a dilemma for the one who would convert; it is a simple exercise of the freedom of conscience which can unfold quite peaceably when left to occur unmolested by the intrusion of the state. I can see that might have escaped your notice based on your assumptions as a theocrat.

    Saying "Most Iranian minority communities socialise and marry within their own communities" is like saying "Most prisoners like to sleep and wake at the same time, take their meals together, and enjoy afternoon exercise in each other's company for exactly one hour."

    To get a sense of the enormity of the problem, you can google "iran persecution conversion" or "iran persecution atheist." Or indeed "iran persecution christian" if you would like to feel a sense of outrage more compatible with your own prejudices.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It is not a dilemma for the one who would convert; it is a simple exercise of the freedom of conscience which can unfold quite peaceably when left to occur unmolested by the intrusion of the state. I can see that might have escaped your notice based on your assumptions as a theocrat.

    Saying "Most Iranian minority communities socialise and marry within their own communities" is like saying "Most prisoners like to sleep and wake at the same time, take their meals together, and enjoy afternoon exercise in each other's company for exactly one hour."

    To get a sense of the enormity of the problem, you can google "iran persecution conversion" or "iran persecution atheist." Or indeed "iran persecution christian" if you would like to feel a sense of outrage more compatible with your own prejudices.
    I'm well aware of the issue of conscience as it governs human rights.

    I'm also very well aware of the issues that face many people living in Iran for on behalf of an NGO I interview many Iranians and Afghans en route to various countries in Northern Europe with Greece their first port of call in the European Union.

    I can tell you many stories...but won't for want of time.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    You DO realise that there are already at least 3 or 4 sharia law courts in the UK? There is one in London, one in Birmingham and one in Cardiff i believe, maybe a couple others up north. Muslims have to consent to their case being heard there, so if one party wants the trial held there, the oppposing party, defendant or whatever has to give consent first, otherwise its dealt with in a british court. This is insanity to me. It flies in the face of one law for all. Furthermore, the culture within Islam does not instill any faith that women aren't forced under duress to attending a sharia court, which heavily favours men. The court cannot impose sentences that are against british standard sentencing, but they can choose to always enforce maximum penalty or excessive leniency within that scope.
    It seems like the previous Labour government bent over backward to accomodate Islam, creating their usual mess in the process. The same government that pushed for gay equality by giving us civil partnerships instead of gay marriage. The same government that failed to regulate the banks and left the treasury empty on their way out of office. The same government that took us to war in Iraq for WMD that didn't exist. I have no faith in the Labour party. I'm hoping to see the next couple of general elections result in coalition government again, until the Lib Dems replace Labour as the party of opposition.
    I was under the impression that these existing "courts" only dealt with property law, I had no idea they actually had some jurisdiction over family law, ie: divorce. This is unacceptable, organised religion (Christian, muslim, jewish, whatever) should have no influence in the legal system, the law must be based on rational thought and not a load of theological hocus pocus, wether it be indigenous or imported from abroad.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    ^ Any legislation based on Sharia contradicts established U.K. legislation and jurisprudence in all but the most trivial of matters.

    It's the duty of our elected representatives to stand up to defend the values that have sired the modern social democratic state.
    Couldn't agree more

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseYouLikeIt View Post
    I was under the impression that these existing "courts" only dealt with property law, I had no idea they actually had some jurisdiction over family law, ie: divorce. This is unacceptable, organised religion (Christian, muslim, jewish, whatever) should have no influence in the legal system, the law must be based on rational thought and not a load of theological hocus pocus, wether it be indigenous or imported from abroad.
    Religious practitioners also pay taxes.....such customs do not interfere with the rights of others....for these customs are focused on marriage, divorce and inheritance squabbles within families.

    You are using the same argument that the self righteous anti gay religious fanatic uses when attempting to argue that extending marriage rights to gays will destroy the sanctity of marriage for heterosexual couples....nevertheless, I note your very personal opinion which you are entitled to express and for me to reject.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I'm well aware of the issue of conscience as it governs human rights.

    I'm also very well aware of the issues that face many people living in Iran for on behalf of an NGO I interview many Iranians and Afghans en route to various countries in Northern Europe with Greece their first port of call in the European Union.

    I can tell you many stories...but won't for want of time.
    Ahh. No time for stories. Well then, in the matter of your awareness, I shall have to take it on faith.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Ahh. No time for stories. Well then, in the matter of your awareness, I shall have to take it on faith.
    That'll be a first from you. Here's a round of applause.

    In my experience Iranians and Afghans are very easy to bed and make good bed mates. I heartily recommend them.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That'll be a first from you. Here's a round of applause.

    In my experience Iranians and Afghans are very easy to bed and make good bed mates. I heartily recommend them.
    Is that part of the refugee intake process?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Is that part of the refugee intake process?
    Greece has a well established custom of preferring to encourage refugees to continue their journey north soonest.

    Most refugees are happy to oblige the Greek authorities.

    My experience with Iranians and Afghans has enabled me to confront my own prejudices teaching me that I also have been blinded by my easy willingness to believe all that I once believed was fact and now understand to be nothing more than empty prejudices long consigned to the refuse heap....for people remain people when they are faced with trails that test their humanity. I also stand guilty.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Immigration is not the most important thing. The only thing which has weakened education and the unions, is their enormous success. The Unions have achieved an almost complete victory against their dread enemy, heavy industry. But, once you have totally defeated an enemy, you cannot keep squeezing the life out. GM is in its death throes, but the unions can keep squeezing as long as the Democrat pours tax money into the company for the union to squeeze out. Our education system is the most expensive and successful in the world--measured from the point of view of the teachers union. The teachers see their goal is to teach political correctness and achieve equality of education, rather than undemocratic stuff like math, science, history. Some students are less capable of learning the tough stuff, so it is better to teach easy stuff and achieve equality.
    Is nobody seriously going to respond to this? Anyone? Really?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  41. #91
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Who can be bothered? It is so ridiculous and delusional that BV doesn't even merit a response any more.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    You DO realise that there are already at least 3 or 4 sharia law courts in the UK? There is one in London, one in Birmingham and one in Cardiff i believe, maybe a couple others up north. Muslims have to consent to their case being heard there, so if one party wants the trial held there, the oppposing party, defendant or whatever has to give consent first, otherwise its dealt with in a british court. This is insanity to me. It flies in the face of one law for all. Furthermore, the culture within Islam does not instill any faith that women aren't forced under duress to attending a sharia court, which heavily favours men. The court cannot impose sentences that are against british standard sentencing, but they can choose to always enforce maximum penalty or excessive leniency within that scope.
    It seems like the previous Labour government bent over backward to accomodate Islam, creating their usual mess in the process. The same government that pushed for gay equality by giving us civil partnerships instead of gay marriage. The same government that failed to regulate the banks and left the treasury empty on their way out of office. The same government that took us to war in Iraq for WMD that didn't exist. I have no faith in the Labour party. I'm hoping to see the next couple of general elections result in coalition government again, until the Lib Dems replace Labour as the party of opposition.
    What a mess, two parallel court system.
    It is almost impossible to get rid off islamic court in Britain now.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    What a mess, two parallel court system.
    It is almost impossible to get rid off islamic court in Britain now.
    It is actually.

    Ontario provides the example:

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edito...ontarians.html

    Five years ago, Premier Dalton McGuinty announced, “There will be no sharia law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians.”
    The premier was referring to the fact that since 1991, arbitration decisions made according to religious laws were enforceable in Ontario courts, and he was now going to rescind the law that made this possible.
    McGuinty’s declaration ended a heated 20-month controversy sparked by Toronto lawyer Syed Mumtaz Ali’s 2004 announcement that an “Islamic Institute of Civil Justice” would shortly begin arbitrating family matters on the basis of sharia law, accompanied by a warning that Muslims who did not submit cases to Islamic arbitration panels were not “good Muslims.”
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  44. #94
    On the Prowl Nemothepanda's Avatar
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Immigration is not the most important thing. The only thing which has weakened education and the unions, is their enormous success. The Unions have achieved an almost complete victory against their dread enemy, heavy industry. But, once you have totally defeated an enemy, you cannot keep squeezing the life out. GM is in its death throes, but the unions can keep squeezing as long as the Democrat pours tax money into the company for the union to squeeze out. Our education system is the most expensive and successful in the world--measured from the point of view of the teachers union. The teachers see their goal is to teach political correctness and achieve equality of education, rather than undemocratic stuff like math, science, history. Some students are less capable of learning the tough stuff, so it is better to teach easy stuff and achieve equality.
    Um...the social sciences, like history, have been on the cutting block to favor math and science. Most schools these days have AP or advanced classes almost always for Math and Science, but never the liberal arts. Stop bringing up connections that don't exist and examples that you can't back up.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Sharia courts shouldn't exist...as should any other court system that tries to parallel the current system. How are immigrants going to assimilate if they follow laws of their home country and not the one of the country they're currently living in?

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    What a mess, two parallel court system.
    It is almost impossible to get rid off islamic court in Britain now.
    Customs, and traditions that are arbitrated by faith based communities such as the Jews, and the Muslims represents a willingness by a democratic society to address the needs of the many in a multi cultural society complimenting the main stream justice system....and of course, the cost of such procedures is met by the respective community rather than by the taxpayer.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemothepanda View Post
    Sharia courts shouldn't exist...as should any other court system that tries to parallel the current system. How are immigrants going to assimilate if they follow laws of their home country and not the one of the country they're currently living in?
    Jews and Muslims are accorded rights that ensure their matters are arbitrated according to their religious customs.

    These procedures do not impact upon the rest of society, and the cost of these tribunals is met by those communities.

    Marriage disputes, divorce, and inheritance squabbles are the matters normally arbitrated by these tribunals.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    For me, I do not see a problem if Sharia courts exist to arbitrate in matters of divorce, inheritance, and marriage disputes and other civil matters. But in the case of divorce, which also has a legal component of dissolving the marriage contract, there needs to be approval from the state.

  49. #99
    On the Prowl Nemothepanda's Avatar
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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Jews and Muslims are accorded rights that ensure their matters are arbitrated according to their religious customs.

    These procedures do not impact upon the rest of society, and the cost of these tribunals is met by those communities.

    Marriage disputes, divorce, and inheritance squabbles are the matters normally arbitrated by these tribunals.
    Be it as it may, we already have a law system for those situations. Are they not good enough because they don't follow the arbitrary credos of ancient desert societies? Sorry, but that has no place in modern democracies that still are doing what they can to be as egalitarian and efficient as possible.
    Last edited by Nemothepanda; June 25th, 2013 at 09:01 PM.

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    Re: Open Racism In The UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    For me, I do not see a problem if Sharia courts exist to arbitrate in matters of divorce, inheritance, and marriage disputes and other civil matters. But in the case of divorce, which also has a legal component of dissolving the marriage contract, there needs to be approval from the state.
    Sorry mate, but have you never heard of the term "slippery slope" before?

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