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  1. #1
    Bammer's Papa
    Kulindahr's Avatar
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    Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    In a thread here it was reported that the NSA told Congress they can listen in on any US phone conversation if an analyst decides to. But now President Obama has a different story:

    What I can say unequivocally is that if you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls, and the NSA cannot target your emails … and have not. They cannot and have not, by law and by rule, and unless they — and usually it wouldn’t be “they,” it’d be the FBI — go to a court, and obtain a warrant, and seek probable cause, the same way it’s always been, the same way when we were growing up and we were watching movies, you want to go set up a wiretap, you got to go to a judge, show probable cause….

    So point number one, if you’re a U.S. person, then NSA is not listening to your phone calls and it’s not targeting your emails unless it’s getting an individualized court order. That’s the existing rule.
    http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/0...t-your-emails/

    So who's lying?




    BTW, for those who love to criticize the president for anything he does no matter which choice he makes, here's some possible actual substance.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #2
    JUB Addicts Orlandude's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Obama is citing the law, the NSA is citing technological capability. The problem with these republican-inspired witch hunts is that there are as many ways to answer a question as there are ways to ask one. Too many of the questions being asked are framed for a desired outcome which makes these committee's an utter waste of time. They need to get serious and bring in a special prosecutor and stop the political grandstanding...or give it up and stop wasting taxpayer money. Issa has turned these committees into partisan bullshit.

  3. #3
    Bammer's Papa
    Kulindahr's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlandude View Post
    Obama is citing the law, the NSA is citing technological capability.
    So both are playing innocent when they darned well know the capability will be used regardless of the law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #4
    JUB Addicts Orlandude's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    This isn't about innocence or guilt. It's about revisiting/overturning laws that were legislated in the Bush administration, that everyone agreed to, now taken to task because nobody likes what they agreed to legislate. This is a result of the consequences of the existing laws.

  5. #5
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
    palbert's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    They're both lying. Silly you.

  6. #6
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So both are playing innocent when they darned well know the capability will be used regardless of the law.
    You're hilarious. "There's no evidence of it being used in the wrong way but everyone knows they will do so."

    I think that argument should be used to take away guns from every citizen of this country. Sure, most of them aren't going around shooting people, but we all know that they're going to, so let's take away the tools to do it now.

    Obama was CLEARLY talking about the fact that policy and law prevents analysts from using the system against Americans. I also don't recall the NSA ever saying they had the capability to spy on any American at any time. I remember Snowden being the one saying that.

  7. #7
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You're hilarious. "There's no evidence of it being used in the wrong way but everyone knows they will do so."

    I think that argument should be used to take away guns from every citizen of this country. Sure, most of them aren't going around shooting people, but we all know that they're going to, so let's take away the tools to do it now.
    Just shows you support totalitarianism and despise individual rights.

    Individuals have rights and the presumption of innocence. Power has no rights and gets no such presumption.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #8
    JUB Addicts Orlandude's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    They're both lying. Silly you.
    Yet there's not a shred of evidence. Now whose being silly?

  9. #9

    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    The democrats have always claimed that the Patriot act trashes our rights under the Constitution. As I recall, the big point of the Act was that US authorities should be able to listen to terrorist calls out of the country without a warrant, since obviously the call will be over before the warrant is obtained. Now BO assures us nothing has changed.

  10. #10
    mitchymo
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The democrats have always claimed that the Patriot act trashes our rights under the Constitution. As I recall, the big point of the Act was that US authorities should be able to listen to terrorist calls out of the country without a warrant, since obviously the call will be over before the warrant is obtained. Now BO assures us nothing has changed.
    The Patriot Act is inbalanced. It should never have included domestic terrorism imo. It was set up in the wake of of sept 11th, and should have focussed on outside threats to the security of the nation. Anyone operating in regards to those outside threats, even if they are homegrown terrorists would be covered by the act. But the act went too far and included domestic terrorism, allowing anyone in the US to be subject to the acts provisions, regardless of what the supposed threat is. If the government decides that a gay rights advocate is a threat, then they can abuse their power. Same with human rights campaigners, same with whistleblowers, same with protesters. And anyone can be considered a solo agent, not having to be connected with any group. You could be a government critic and get spied upon, and through that, potential means can be learned for silencing you. Its an invasive measure that is unnecessary in a supposedly free society. The only saving grace, and i believe, that is i trust, that the US government, and my own, are using their powers as intended. This doesn't mean that at some point we might learn otherwise, but there is no real scandal come out to suggest that abuse of power has resulted in actual harm to anyone.

  11. #11
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Just shows you support totalitarianism and despise individual rights.

    Individuals have rights and the presumption of innocence. Power has no rights and gets no such presumption.
    The government isn't a person. There are people, normal citizens, who work for these agencies. If you're accusing these agencies of doing something illegal, like spying on Americans, then you're accusing some subset of employees at these agencies of breaking the law. Maybe your problem is that you see the government as some singular being instead of the numerous citizens that actually comprise it.

    I favor individual rights, but I also realize and accept that responsibilities come with those rights. Going around espousing some crackpot paranoid idea that the government is spying on all Americans' communications without any evidence is not being responsible. Pounding your chest about how your rights are being violated without actually having any of your rights violated is not being responsible. When the Supreme Court rules that collecting metadata is illegal and violates your rights, then your rights are violated. When there is evidence provided that the government is spying on US citizens, then your rights are violated. Until that happens, your rights are not violated and running around screaming the sky is falling is as ridiculous as what I proposed earlier with the guns.

  12. #12
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    If somebody has the data, he will use it eventually. A simple look at history will prove this true in every single instance. No judges, no laws have stopped people from that.


    Anyway, in reply to the first post:

    As a system administrator, Snowden "could go on the network or go into any file or any system and change it or add to it or whatever, just to make sure -- because he would be responsible to get it back up and running if, in fact, it failed. So that meant he had access to go in and put anything. That's why he said, I think, 'I can even target the president or a judge.' If he knew their phone numbers or attributes, he could insert them into the target list which would be distributed worldwide. And then it would be collected, yeah, that's right. As a super-user, he could do that."
    source:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...claims/276964/

    Further this story from 2008:
    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5987804

    Just look a bit closer and read the press statement again:

    Only when there is probable cause, given from a court order by a federal judge, can they go into the content of phone calls and emails…
    They need an order to access the data. But it's actually there already. And now read the first quote again. At least some people, including somebody almost irrelevant as Snowden, actually do have full access to the data without any court order or similar.

    A somewhat deeper analysis:
    http://blog.rubbingalcoholic.com/pos...ing-everything

    http://blog.rubbingalcoholic.com/pos...ing-everything
    Check out my very own Body Hair Lovers and Photography Groups!

  13. #13
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    I like the book-on-the-shelf illustration. It tells us that they are in fact recording everything. Then there's this:

    In a recent interview about the Boston Marathon investigation, former FBI counterterrorism agent Tim Clemente shocked CNN’s Erin Burnett when he nonchalantly revealed that the government could listen in on past phone conversations between suspect Tsarnaev and his wife, or indeed any Americans. When CNN dragged him back in the next day for follow-up questioning, he stuck to his guns, adding that “all digital communications” are recorded and stored, and that “no digital communication is secure.”
    So we've been flat out told in plain language that they record and keep absolutely everything.

    What that boils down to is that the answer to my question "Who's lying?" is "All of the above".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #14
    JUB Addicts Orlandude's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The democrats have always claimed that the Patriot act trashes our rights under the Constitution. As I recall, the big point of the Act was that US authorities should be able to listen to terrorist calls out of the country without a warrant, since obviously the call will be over before the warrant is obtained. Now BO assures us nothing has changed.
    The following link may be helpful to you. It outlines all the rights we have lost and rights that have been degraded under the Patriot Act. Democrats should be outraged by this horrible law and I'm disappointed that Obama hasn't aggressively pursued its repeal...

    http://www.nyclu.org/pdfs/eroding_liberty.pdf

  15. #15
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ... they record and keep absolutely everything.
    Probably more than we've realized, but at least including phone conversations, emails, text messages, and instant messages:


  16. #16
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Suddenly Shia seems believable (from 2008)

    Check out my very own Body Hair Lovers and Photography Groups!

  17. #17
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    They have all contents of conversations and e-mails and other communications. This much is unassailable...they have EVERYTHING... anyone defending the program by saying they cannot record your contents is misinformed or lying through their teeth. The only thing they can say with possibly a shred of truth is they are constrained by law from actually listening to or reading the communications. Today, maybe... tomorrow, well better hope for one of those cones of silence from "Get Smart" to send out any kind of communication. Though they probably don't work, either!
    unofficial official mini meet Friday- Saturday April 11-12, 2014

  18. #18

    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    They're both lying. Silly you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlandude View Post
    Yet there's not a shred of evidence. Now whose being silly?
    I saw their lips move. How much more evidence do you need than that?
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic216959_1.gif

  19. #19
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    They have all contents of conversations and e-mails and other communications. This much is unassailable...they have EVERYTHING... anyone defending the program by saying they cannot record your contents is misinformed or lying through their teeth. The only thing they can say with possibly a shred of truth is they are constrained by law from actually listening to or reading the communications. Today, maybe... tomorrow, well better hope for one of those cones of silence from "Get Smart" to send out any kind of communication. Though they probably don't work, either!
    Any proof? That claim is totally assailable because no one arguing that point has produced one shred of evidence to support it. All it takes is one recorded phone conversation, one intercepted e-mail, one recorded Skype chat. But no one, either on here or in the press, has been able to produce a single piece of evidence, other than their word, that any spying or surveillance of citizens has taken place.

  20. #20
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Somebody's lying: President, or NSA

    "What have I got in my pocket?" [Bilbo] said aloud.
    J.R.R., The Hobbit, 1937 (Chapter V: Riddles In The Dark)

    "What have I got behind my curtain?" the Feds said aloud.

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