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  1. #1
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    Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    While the US deals with NSA, FBI, PRISM, the Patriot Act, telephone metadata, and Boundless Informant, the EU has been moving in a more open direction.

    INDECT is a research project in the area of intelligent security systems performed by several European universities since 2009 and funded by the European Union. The purpose of the project is to involve European scientists and researchers in the development of solutions to and tools for automatic threat detection through e.g. processing of CCTV camera data streams, standardization of video sequence quality for user applications, threat detection in computer networks as well as data and privacy protection.

    The area of research, applied methods and techniques are described in the public deliverables which are available to the public on the project's website. Practically, all information related to the research is public. Only documents that comprise information related to financial data or information that could negatively influence the competitiveness and law enforcement capabilities of parties involved in the project are not published. This follows regulations and practices applied in EU research projects.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INDECT

    European Governments are demanding that the US protect the privacy of their citizens.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ope-us-privacy

    Your thoughts, particularly if you are in Europe?

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Mostly Europe doesn't dictate what we do with our surveillance systems. Today public hearings were called for on the programs in question which have been given a legal umbrella by our congress.

    I say potato - potato (you're gonna have to pronounce them differently to get it)

    We abhor and place massive restrictions on video surveillance while Europeans embrace Orwellian monitoring. Same stew, different cooks.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  3. #3
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Project INDECT:

    The primary objective is to develop advanced and innovative algorithms for human decision support in combating terrorism and other criminal activities, such as human trafficking, child pornography, detection of dangerous situations (e.g. robberies) and the use of dangerous objects (e.g. knives or guns) in public spaces. Efficient tools for dealing with such situations are crucial to ensuring the safety of citizens.

    A significant part of the project is dedicated to the development of tools and methods for data and privacy protection. The processed information is protected before its transmission or storage to prevent any attempts at unauthorized access. Dedicated tools are being developed to protect citizens’ privacy in areas covered by visual monitoring systems.
    http://www.indect-project.eu/

    Apparently this is a data collection system for use by the particular subscribing governments. Note the emphasis on citizens' privacy.

    I would be interested in any comments on its utilization.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Yeah.. the folks from those countries seem absolutely positive America isn't protecting her citizens privacy despite statements to the contrary... so the reaction will be interesting. If that is what they do in the open, and since many of the European nations have internal security forces, I wonder how much is going on in the dark?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  5. #5
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    @ JayHawk: It will be very interesting to see what they've been getting from us and about their own citizens.

    I think there's some "you spy on ours, we'll spy on yours" understood, but not spoken, in these intelligence dealings.

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    I just love the feux outrage from the Germans that its government would never spy on its citizens like the SS. Naivety is a bastard sword.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    I wonder if any Europeans will have the **cough** courage to come out and spill their countries secrets.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I just love the feux outrage from the Germans that its government would never spy on its citizens like the SS. Naivety is a bastard sword.
    How can you be so ignorant?

    1. The SS did not spy on the citizens of Nazi Germany, that was the Gestapo (Geheime Staatspolizei / secret state police). But the biggest surveillance state in Germany was not the Gestapo, it was the Stasi (Staatsicherheit) of East Germany, which was one of the most invasive surveillance organizations in the world.

    2. Faux outrage??? I was born in East Germany, I remember when the Stasi invited my parents for... interviews when they petitioned to emigrate to the West (which was possible in the last years if you had relatives there) and I can recall how absolutely terrified they were. We suspect that my grandfather was a Stasi informer (some estimates give the number of Stasi informants with as high as ONE IN SEVEN!). This is a hugely emotional issue for me, and I cannot understand the lax US attitude to things like the PATRIOT act, but this issue is fresh in all Germans mind. East Germany fell less than 25 years ago, we KNOW what it was like to live under a totalitarian security state and we never wish to return to that.

    3. Because of our experiences we have very strong privacy and data protections anchored in our constitution, much stronger than the US has currently. The government of (West) Germany would NOT spy on its citizens like the USA does, there is no naivety involved. European privacy protection laws are also quite strong.

    4. This project INDECT seeks to use publicly available information and comb through it to find terrorists and the like. This is of course comparable to Google and co. turning over their users data to the US intelligence agencies, and totally the same like Verizon giving up the phone records to the government... Except this is obviously not the case.

    5. I hope the EU forbids Google and co. to pass on any data about its citizens to the US government. If need be they must be forced to locate the servers serving Europe on our soil to get the fucking US intelligence agencies hands off our data. And I hope that someday Americans will wake up and recognize that you will never be totally safe from terrorists, and that some increases in security are not worth the loss of personal freedom (ironic that this has to be explained to AMERICANS at all).

    6. To JayHawk, which country has an absolutely massive security apparatus spanning the whole world and thus most likely to have the "dark secrets", and which countries have relatively modest but still adequate intelligence agencies where this is less likely? And especially ironic talking about courage, when Americans are obviously frightened enough to part with all their civil liberties if it just protects them from the terrorists.
    Last edited by Tengilethos; June 13th, 2013 at 06:09 AM.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    They are not parting with civil liberties. This 'data' is given up freely when each user signs a contract. It is extremely simply to not sign that contract.

    Ten fingers you panties are in a wad but it is ok... we still could go on another couple centuries on this path and not have the war mongering destructive nature of the German people. That is all you will be known for over the next couple centuries and nothing you people say or do will change the fact that you tried to exterminate the world.... twice.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    They are not parting with civil liberties. This 'data' is given up freely when each user signs a contract. It is extremely simply to not sign that contract.

    Ten fingers you panties are in a wad but it is ok... we still could go on another couple centuries on this path and not have the war mongering destructive nature of the German people. That is all you will be known for over the next couple centuries and nothing you people say or do will change the fact that you tried to exterminate the world.... twice.
    Ah yes, let's Godwin the thread when we have no more valid arguments. Also you are misremembering World War 1. The motivations of all involved certainly did not involve world extermination.

    And what kind of logic is that? You can avoid being spied on by the government if you don't use a phone or the internet? Well, nothing to worry about then.

  11. #11
    mitchymo
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    They are not parting with civil liberties. This 'data' is given up freely when each user signs a contract. It is extremely simply to not sign that contract.

    Ten fingers you panties are in a wad but it is ok... we still could go on another couple centuries on this path and not have the war mongering destructive nature of the German people. That is all you will be known for over the next couple centuries and nothing you people say or do will change the fact that you tried to exterminate the world.... twice.
    I'd say you owe Tengilethos an apology for that DISGRACEFUL comment. Absolutely disgraceful.

  12. #12
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    They are not parting with civil liberties. This 'data' is given up freely when each user signs a contract. It is extremely simply to not sign that contract.
    In the law they are called "contracts of adhesion." If the contract provisions are not truly negotiable courts will look askance at those terms.

    Ten fingers you panties are in a wad but it is ok... we still could go on another couple centuries on this path and not have the war mongering destructive nature of the German people. That is all you will be known for over the next couple centuries and nothing you people say or do will change the fact that you tried to exterminate the world.... twice.
    Painting with a broad brush aren't you? An inexcusable imputation.

  13. #13
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Yeah.. the folks from those countries seem absolutely positive America isn't protecting her citizens privacy despite statements to the contrary... so the reaction will be interesting. If that is what they do in the open, and since many of the European nations have internal security forces, I wonder how much is going on in the dark?
    When law enforcement in the US stops shooting innocent people in their own homes, stops arresting and then inventing a reason for doing so after the fact, stops requiring people to lie on demand, and stops lying to get their way, your objection might have some substance. Indeed, when the Supreme Court itself upholds the practice of police lying to citizens, it's only common sense for the rest of the world to take any assurances given by any of our law enforcement people on any level with a lump of salt.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    They are not parting with civil liberties. This 'data' is given up freely when each user signs a contract. It is extremely simply to not sign that contract.
    Bullshit. Google knows close to 99% of what people do on the internet, whether they're Google customers or not. The ONLY way to not have these companies hand your information to the government is to not use the internet... or a cell phone.

    And any contract signed under duress is illegitimate to begin with. Since it's impossible to use electronic communications systems without these companies spying on you, none of those contracts are valid -- they're just coercive instruments invented by coercive institutions and backed by coercive government under the threat of force (in the end, as George Washington noted, government is force).

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Ten fingers you panties are in a wad but it is ok... we still could go on another couple centuries on this path and not have the war mongering destructive nature of the German people. That is all you will be known for over the next couple centuries and nothing you people say or do will change the fact that you tried to exterminate the world.... twice.
    Maybe to those whose business is being at the beck and call of warmongers.

    The American people are little different, or we would have seen tens of thousands of military personnel refuse on moral grounds to engage in the invasion of a country which had not harmed us.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #15
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    The CCTV's in Britain are being monitored, here is an example from 2007

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6524495.stm
    "Talking" CCTV cameras that tell off people dropping litter or committing anti-social behaviour are to be extended to 20 areas across England.

    And this one to contrast the negative story above

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4062023.stm
    Dieter Graw, 47, tried to kidnap the 16-year-old on York Road, Doncaster, in June 2003. The footage caused outrage when it was screened on TV.

    He was jailed on Thursday by a judge at Sheffield Crown Court. A claim he was trying to save her was rejected.

    The court heard how the girl was walking home at 3.15am on 26 June, 2003, when she was approached by Graw.


  16. #16
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I'd say you owe Tengilethos an apology for that DISGRACEFUL comment. Absolutely disgraceful.
    Not hardly, if one choose to engage in xenophobia instead of conversation then it will be returned likewise.

    The funny thing about all of this is that Prism will disappear and be cancelled. And whatever moniker they call the next one will be spun up. Our government and MOST of our people are fine with that legal mechanism existing. What is telling is that people in Europe apparently think their countries don't do such things. That is true head in the sand behavior but it is their head and their sand.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  17. #17
    mitchymo
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Not hardly, if one choose to engage in xenophobia instead of conversation then it will be returned likewise.
    What part exactly, of Tengilethos's comment, was xenophobic to you?

    The fact you brought up Germany's dark history to attack a population today, was what was disgraceful. Just how many people do you think are left living who played any major part in WWII (let alone WWI)?

    What Tengilethos said here:
    "And especially ironic talking about courage, when Americans are obviously frightened enough to part with all their civil liberties if it just protects them from the terrorists."
    - it is not without current, NOTE CURRENT, evidence. When the police went on a man-hunt for the Boston bomber, what happened to the freedom of the people who were under curfew? You can argue it was for their own protection, but it is still prioritising the attack against terrorism over the rights of the people.
    Giving in to fear.

  18. #18
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    I apologize. I was pretty mad yesterday and should not have posted without calming down. I don't think what I said was actually xenophobic, more a really unfair and exaggerated characterization, but I don't want to argue over semantics. Anyway, this was inappropriate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengilethos View Post
    And especially ironic talking about courage, when Americans are obviously frightened enough to part with all their civil liberties if it just protects them from the terrorists.
    That is very exaggerated and people can come to the conclusion that more security is worth the loss in freedom with logical thinking. But I want to ask who first doubted the other people's courage?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I wonder if any Europeans will have the **cough** courage to come out and spill their countries secrets.
    And if my comments are xenophobic, what was this?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I just love the feux outrage from the Germans that its government would never spy on its citizens like the SS. Naivety is a bastard sword.
    This post made me really mad and I overreacted, but this is really really ignorant.


    And I think the gist of my post is still right. There is no doubt that European governments increased surveillance following 9/11. There are always more politicians with paternalistic/autocratic tendencies that would like the law enforcement agencies to have even more power. But overall privacy protections are not in a bad place, our own constitutional court struck down several methods to gain the data of citizens as too invasive. I am not naive enough to believe we know about everything our government does, but it is absolutely not on the level the US government is doing. At least in Germany this has also political reasons, because our government will nearly always consist of one of the two big parties who like more surveillance, and one of the two small parties who are very strong on civil liberties. Our current justice minister resigned as justice minister about 20 years ago rather than expand a wire tapping program.


    And I still cannot understand how Americans can be so relaxed about their government spying on them. Don't you see that the terrorist win if they can force you to make your society less free?

    And lastly, you cannot expect me to be unconcerned if the US government is spying on me, when I don't even have the limited protections US citizens enjoy.
    Last edited by opinterph; June 14th, 2013 at 12:35 AM. Reason: added attribution

  19. #19
    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengilethos View Post


    And I still cannot understand how Americans can be so relaxed about their government spying on them. Don't you see that the terrorist win if they can force you to make your society less free?

    And lastly, you cannot expect me to be unconcerned if the US government is spying on me, when I don't even have the limited protections US citizens enjoy.
    Germany is spying on its citizens more than the US government is spying on us. Where's your outrage?

    Germany has about 1/4 our population and about 1/3 of the number of requests for personal user information.

    Smells like bullshit. You're only outraged if someone else does it.

    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  20. #20
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Mostly Europe doesn't dictate what we do with our surveillance systems. Today public hearings were called for on the programs in question which have been given a legal umbrella by our congress.
    Europe doesn't care how the US government treats its own citizens but it absolutely has authority in how its citizens get treated, and companies with interests in Europe or clients in Europe are answerable to Europe no matter where their head office is.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Tengilethos don't apologise, you made very good points.

    It is ridiculous to assume modern Germans have some kind of latent fascist characteristics just waiting to re-emerge. There was a German resistance to both naziism and communism, before WWII, and before and during the Cold War. Those people and those ideas have now prevailed and are firmly anchored in German law, and German public life.

    It is as meaningless to blame modern Germans for nazi abuses against civil liberties, as it would be to blame modern Americans for American infringements against civil liberties when the King of America was George III.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Slut Tengilethos's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Disclaimer: Yesterday was the first day in at least a month that I visited JUB, and I only skimmed CEP for topics that might be of interest to me. I have not read any of the other leak/NSA/Snowden threads so I cannot say anything about them.

    I am personally not bothered with bringing up the Nazis. I don't believe they are relevant to the discussion at hand but people can disagree about that. What enraged me about the post of maxpowr9 was not any connection to the Nazis or him confusing the SS with the Gestapo but the accusation of faux outrage. I lived in a part of Germany suffering under one of the worst tyrannical surveillance states in history, but we have overcome them (with the help of our Allies!) and broken with this strain of politics.

    As a comparison, imagine if you criticized Apartheid South Africa over their racist laws, and they would accuse Americans of faux outrage since as recently as the Fifties big parts of the USA were still segregated. After you struggled through the Civil Rights era to eliminate these injustices in your society, you are then told you cannot criticize others for their racism because you were racists in recent memory too. That is how I felt.

    Now I think JayHawk seeking refuge in Nazi comparisons is rather weak, but I am unfazed by that. It is not the first time that someone played the Nazi card against me on the internet. Hitler was more than ten years dead when my parents were born, I am not a Nazi, so I can just shrug this off.

    And I am sorry palbert for derailing the thread even more.

    @Lostlover, I will address your points later but I have no time right now to search for the relevant quotes/sources.

  23. #23
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed]
    What are you going on about jack springer for (and corny for that matter)? I don't know what posts you are referring to. Did I miss a shit show and half the posts are gone? This is post 31 as far as I can see, and based on the 30 preceding it, I stand by my remarks.
    And what part of recent Canadian history is instructive here?

    Tengilethos it is apt that you mention South Africa. The resemblance of Germany's government after the Second World War has no more to do with the third reich than South Africa's government under democracy can be equated with South Africa's government under apartheid. None of those governments are immune from criticism but suggesting some kind of continuity between old and new is beyond pointless and into the realm of a xenophobic slander.

    All of which people are welcome to continue spouting as I am welcome to continue refuting.
    Last edited by opinterph; June 14th, 2013 at 09:04 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    They are not parting with civil liberties. This 'data' is given up freely when each user signs a contract. It is extremely simply to not sign that contract.

    Ten fingers you panties are in a wad but it is ok... we still could go on another couple centuries on this path and not have the war mongering destructive nature of the German people. That is all you will be known for over the next couple centuries and nothing you people say or do will change the fact that you tried to exterminate the world.... twice.
    A crock of complete excrement about the nature of "German people." You wouldn't want to know where you'd find support for that notion of inherent immutable traits.

    And the point you present on voluntary contracts has already been ably refuted by kulindahr with useful context from palbert.

    I do have a question on that point however. If the terms of the contract are voluntary then Google or Facebook have created those terms at their discretion. Why don't they offer terms more amenable to our legitimate privacy interests?

    Voluntary my ass.
    Last edited by bankside; June 14th, 2013 at 12:39 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  25. #25
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post


    Voluntary my ass.
    Bingo!.................

  26. #26
    mitchymo
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed]
    How have i act shocked lol??? Nobody has asked me anything specifically. I was following the thread and only decided to comment because JayHawk brought up what i consider to be an extremely distasteful remark. Perhaps it's fair to say i'm being a little biased, as my best friend through my teens and twenties was german, he moved here a decade before i met him, but i don't believe i am. I fail to see the relevance of bringing up history from 60+ years ago (even if that does constitute recent history), in response to a percieved similarity of generalising entire people, when that perception is based on current history. It stunk of an attempt to hit below the belt, and that is the place to hit when you have no other comeback.
    I have no qualms with people bringing up the nazis, or indeed calling people nazis, so long as there are facts that can reasonably some people up as that. What Jayhawk said, disgusted me, because the thing he said is ONLY true of Germans today BECAUSE people like him insist on holding an unreasonable grudge. For the rest of us who are moving on with history, this is totally untrue. In the UK, German history is not forgotten, you only have to watch some of our comedy panel shows or stand-ups to see that we make 'digs' at the germans based on that history, but its only ever in that domain of comedy. IT IS NOT THE REALITY. We take the piss out of anybody for anything in comedy, but where it matters, the Germans are not remembered NOW (let alone for the next couple centuries like jayhawk said) for their darkest history (maybe in America???), but here they are known for being an economic powerhouse with a great manufacturing industry, a friend and ally of the WEST. If a guy from Japan came into the debate, would Jayhawk bring up Pearl Harbour whenever his current government came under criticism?

    It was a cheap shot, uncalled for, thats all.
    Last edited by opinterph; June 14th, 2013 at 09:04 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengilethos View Post
    I apologize. I was pretty mad yesterday and should not have posted without calming down. I don't think what I said was actually xenophobic, more a really unfair and exaggerated characterization, but I don't want to argue over semantics. Anyway, this was inappropriate:

    That is very exaggerated and people can come to the conclusion that more security is worth the loss in freedom with logical thinking. But I want to ask who first doubted the other people's courage?

    And if my comments are xenophobic, what was this?



    This post made me really mad and I overreacted, but this is really really ignorant.


    And I think the gist of my post is still right. There is no doubt that European governments increased surveillance following 9/11. There are always more politicians with paternalistic/autocratic tendencies that would like the law enforcement agencies to have even more power. But overall privacy protections are not in a bad place, our own constitutional court struck down several methods to gain the data of citizens as too invasive. I am not naive enough to believe we know about everything our government does, but it is absolutely not on the level the US government is doing. At least in Germany this has also political reasons, because our government will nearly always consist of one of the two big parties who like more surveillance, and one of the two small parties who are very strong on civil liberties. Our current justice minister resigned as justice minister about 20 years ago rather than expand a wire tapping program.


    And I still cannot understand how Americans can be so relaxed about their government spying on them. Don't you see that the terrorist win if they can force you to make your society less free?

    And lastly, you cannot expect me to be unconcerned if the US government is spying on me, when I don't even have the limited protections US citizens enjoy.
    Returning the favor.

    I still have no doubt that ZERO privacy has been violated. And if my reaction was less than stellar to your comments it is because there are a few posters who never chime in on anything unless they can make themselves feel better by claiming to be non american. I suppose you got to try and claim something nationalistic to feel good but it is tiring.

    It is covered in our law and accepted by the American people for the most part except for the tin foil hatters and poli-tics trying to suck the blood out of a situation for political gain. There is nothing wrong with and nothing with change because of the criminal Snowden.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    What are you going on about jack springer for (and corny for that matter)? I don't know what posts you are referring to. Did I miss a shit show and half the posts are gone? This is post 31 as far as I can see, and based on the 30 preceding it, I stand by my remarks.
    And what part of recent Canadian history is instructive here?

    Tengilethos it is apt that you mention South Africa. The resemblance of Germany's government after the Second World War has no more to do with the third reich than South Africa's government under democracy can be equated with South Africa's government under apartheid. None of those governments are immune from criticism but suggesting some kind of continuity between old and new is beyond pointless and into the realm of a xenophobic slander.

    All of which people are welcome to continue spouting as I am welcome to continue refuting.
    You are perfectly free to onject and not partake in their domains. In fact, there are plenty of alternate solutions.

    Google meet non tracking search engines

    Any National cell plan meet the Tracfone. There is literally zero harm in shifting plans to something more your taste IF you disagree with a user agreement that gives your data to a corporation and the federal law that gives the government access.

    Chicken Little meet sky!!
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post

    I still have no doubt that ZERO privacy has been violated.
    Keep on denying it will not change the reality that the media is commenting upon in great detail that Americans are being spied upon by the NSA and that in closed session Congress is grilling FBI officials and intelligence chiefs:

    I quote:

    But senior figures from both parties emerged from the meeting alarmed at the extent of a surveillance program that many claimed never to have heard of until whistleblower Edward Snowden leaked a series of top-secret documents.

    The congressional fury came at the end of a day of fast-moving developments.

    In a lawsuit filed in New York, the American Civil Liberties Union accused the US government of a process that was "akin to snatching every American's address book".


    unquote

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...nce-programmes

  30. #30
    mitchymo
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed]
    There is no outrage from me on this matter actually. I am fully aware that if i post something on Facebook or Twitter for example, that i am not protected under the same scope as free speech as what citizens in the US are, and as such, that can and does lead to trackbacks so that the police can arrest you for committing crimes, such as inciting riots or hate speech, (and even then, its not a certainty, there tends to be crackdowns on bad behaviour when a riot is in full swing or when a subject is sensitive, rather than a 100% application). But the bulk of requests being made are probably in relation to terrorism investigations. For all i know, i'd only need to update my Facebook status with 'i let off a stink-bomb in the library today' and suddenly my government is spying on me, because their sophisticated means of spying noticed the word bomb in my status. Who knows. I certainly don't fear being spied on, i have nothing to hide. Then, if you look at muslims in the west, who governments may be keen to learn more about, well, its Europe that has the higher populations of muslims, ergo higher populations of radical ones amongst them. I don't know what it is like for you in the US, or for anyone in any other country, but in the UK, there have been countless incidents of individuals over the last decade, of muslims caught in relation to terrorist activities, and they keep coming out of the woodwork. These are people who our intelligence agencies NEED to be able to spy on, and if that means they may have reason to snoop around to find out who i am, good, they won't find anything that i wouldn't say to them if they popped around in person instead, at least they aren't having to waste my time finding out whether i'm any kind of threat to national security, they won't have reason to, simple as.

    The only reason i can think that this whole affair is any BIG DEAL, is because the people of the US prefer generally that their government keeps their beaks as far back as possible. You have to have a balance though. You can't just sit back and do nothing, but you can't go too far either. So, for me, i'm happy for government to spy on me if they wish, i hope i provide them with some entertainment until they find a terrorist to follow, so long as they don't come knocking on my door to question me about activities that are in no way indicative of a tendency to blow myself up in a crowded place. That would just be a pointless endeavour.
    Last edited by opinterph; June 14th, 2013 at 09:02 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster

  31. #31
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by star-warrior View Post
    The CCTV's in Britain are being monitored, here is an example from 2007

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6524495.stm
    You don't find this a little freaky?

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I still have no doubt that ZERO privacy has been violated.
    Your privacy is violated every time you use the internet. Case in point: posts here should be private to JUB, but they aren't -- they can be found by googling them. You don't have to have an account with google; they track you anyway.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #33
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed]
    People should cry foul at fallacious arguments.
    Last edited by opinterph; June 14th, 2013 at 09:01 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  34. #34
    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    People should cry foul at fallacious arguments.
    Jayhawk was nice enough to post ways to go into stealth mode, away from the peering eyes of the NSA. Are you going to get a Tracfone and stop using the major search engines?
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Jayhawk was nice enough to post ways to go into stealth mode, away from the peering eyes of the NSA. Are you going to get a Tracfone and stop using the major search engines?
    WAKE UP.

    It's been posted here multiple times: it doesn't matter if you use the major search engines; Google knows what you're doing whether they're your customer or not.

    As for Tracfone, I've been trying to find if one of theirs will work with the Garmin GPS tracker for my service dog -- if one does, I've already decided to switch.



    edit: it wasn't jayhawk, it was palbert.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  36. #36
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    just to avoid accusations of tinfoilhattery, by what means does google know this?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  37. #37
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    just to avoid accusations of tinfoilhattery, by what means does google know this?
    Can't find the article, but it's been linked in one of the threads about this. Basically, if you go to a site that uses google in any way ("search powered by google" google maps, whatever), google gets all the metadata and maybe more. Additionally, if your browser has a google tool bar, even if you don't use google for mail or search, they still know what you do -- and sometimes even if you've removed the google tool bar, they still know (you have to do a complete and thorough uninstall).

    And IIRC, Google pays other companies for the metadata they're not gathering directly.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    WAKE UP.

    It's been posted here multiple times: it doesn't matter if you use the major search engines; Google knows what you're doing whether they're your customer or not.

    As for Tracfone, I've been trying to find if one of theirs will work with the Garmin GPS tracker for my service dog -- if one does, I've already decided to switch.



    edit: it wasn't jayhawk, it was palbert.
    More talk and no actions. All these years you've branded yourself as someone concerned with liberty and "rights," but when it comes to abandoning Google, who is giving your information to the government, you can't be bothered to use another search engine.

    There are ways around Google, but it will require lifting a couple of fingers and moving them across your keyboard to protect your liberty and rights.

    I guess you're trying to have your Google and eat it too.

    There's been a lot of talk the last couple of days: supporters not even bothering to lift a finger to support their cause and freedom watchers not willing to give the Google the boot. Google is so bad with privacy, even before this latest issue, in an admission of its own intrusive waves, 2 months ago, the company was offering people kill-switches on their personal data once they die.

    Maybe one of the people here that claims to care about freedom, privacy, and personal rights can do something about protecting living people's privacy.

    I've never seen a side of an argument defended so weakly.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 14th, 2013 at 11:45 PM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    There is no outrage from me on this matter actually. I am fully aware that if i post something on Facebook or Twitter for example, that i am not protected under the same scope as free speech as what citizens in the US are, and as such, that can and does lead to trackbacks so that the police can arrest you for committing crimes, such as inciting riots or hate speech, (and even then, its not a certainty, there tends to be crackdowns on bad behaviour when a riot is in full swing or when a subject is sensitive, rather than a 100% application). But the bulk of requests being made are probably in relation to terrorism investigations. For all i know, i'd only need to update my Facebook status with 'i let off a stink-bomb in the library today' and suddenly my government is spying on me, because their sophisticated means of spying noticed the word bomb in my status. Who knows. I certainly don't fear being spied on, i have nothing to hide. Then, if you look at muslims in the west, who governments may be keen to learn more about, well, its Europe that has the higher populations of muslims, ergo higher populations of radical ones amongst them. I don't know what it is like for you in the US, or for anyone in any other country, but in the UK, there have been countless incidents of individuals over the last decade, of muslims caught in relation to terrorist activities, and they keep coming out of the woodwork. These are people who our intelligence agencies NEED to be able to spy on, and if that means they may have reason to snoop around to find out who i am, good, they won't find anything that i wouldn't say to them if they popped around in person instead, at least they aren't having to waste my time finding out whether i'm any kind of threat to national security, they won't have reason to, simple as.

    The only reason i can think that this whole affair is any BIG DEAL, is because the people of the US prefer generally that their government keeps their beaks as far back as possible. You have to have a balance though. You can't just sit back and do nothing, but you can't go too far either. So, for me, i'm happy for government to spy on me if they wish, i hope i provide them with some entertainment until they find a terrorist to follow, so long as they don't come knocking on my door to question me about activities that are in no way indicative of a tendency to blow myself up in a crowded place. That would just be a pointless endeavour.
    You might not know this because it's one of the nuances that only Americans who follow the news pick up. Those people on TV that talk about rights and government intrusion (usually old) are full of shit. They love government more than anyone else in the world. Even more than Europe who they always seem to bring up when they talk about how they fear for our country's future. Government can't do enough for these people even though they swear up and down and on the Bible that they're self-made and independent.

    If every European worked for the next two years and gave ever penny he or she made to the US, it would cover senior citizen's medication and procedures, both current and future expenses. But they swear they don't like the government. So, the idea that Americans care about government listening in on conversations is a myth.

    Most Americans aren't that stereotype you quoted, even the loudmouths you seem to be referencing. They like government intrusion; it keeps them alive and breaths life into a good conspiracy theory.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 14th, 2013 at 11:58 PM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post

    So, the idea that Americans care about government listening in on conversations is a myth.
    Keep repeating these words much like a mantra and you might just convince yourself...meantime, in the real world distant from your Alice in Wonderland make believe life Americans do care about their privacy and right to live their lives without government snooping with Congressional interrogation of those who head the NSA and FBI evidence of this fact of life in the United States of America.

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    More talk and no actions. All these years you've branded yourself as someone concerned with liberty and "rights," but when it comes to abandoning Google, who is giving your information to the government, you can't be bothered to use another search engine.

    There are ways around Google, but it will require lifting a couple of fingers and moving them across your keyboard to protect your liberty and rights.

    I guess you're trying to have your Google and eat it too.
    Don't read well, do you?

    It doesn't matter which search engine you use -- Google still knows something like 98% of what you do online. As FrankFrank pointed out, the only way to avoid thus surveillance is to live like it's 1910.

    It's like caring about global warming but still buying gasoline or using electricity or buying imported products: there are actions that can be taken, and actions that can't. In this case, you're advocating actions that can't be taken -- and you haven't said one word about actions that can.

    Actions that can be taken:

    • write the White House
    • write your US Senators
    • write your US Representatives



    and others.

    I've done five things that will actually have an effect. But if it makes you happy, go on acting so self-righteous, chastizing people for doing things that wouldn't make a difference anyway.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  42. #42
    mitchymo
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    You might not know this because it's one of the nuances that only Americans who follow the news pick up. Those people on TV that talk about rights and government intrusion (usually old) are full of shit. They love government more than anyone else in the world. Even more than Europe who they always seem to bring up when they talk about how they fear for our country's future. Government can't do enough for these people even though they swear up and down and on the Bible that they're self-made and independent.

    If every European worked for the next two years and gave ever penny he or she made to the US, it would cover senior citizen's medication and procedures, both current and future expenses. But they swear they don't like the government. So, the idea that Americans care about government listening in on conversations is a myth.

    Most Americans aren't that stereotype you quoted, even the loudmouths you seem to be referencing. They like government intrusion; it keeps them alive and breaths life into a good conspiracy theory.
    Ok Lostlover, no need for me to pay any more attention now that i know the whole thing is about a bunch of people getting their knickers in a twist about a blanket of government surveillance which they actually like to snuggle under.
    I've never been a fan of wild goose chases.

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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    There is no outrage from me on this matter actually. I am fully aware that if i post something on Facebook or Twitter for example, that i am not protected under the same scope as free speech as what citizens in the US are, and as such, that can and does lead to trackbacks so that the police can arrest you for committing crimes, such as inciting riots or hate speech, (and even then, its not a certainty, there tends to be crackdowns on bad behaviour when a riot is in full swing or when a subject is sensitive, rather than a 100% application). But the bulk of requests being made are probably in relation to terrorism investigations. For all i know, i'd only need to update my Facebook status with 'i let off a stink-bomb in the library today' and suddenly my government is spying on me, because their sophisticated means of spying noticed the word bomb in my status. Who knows. I certainly don't fear being spied on, i have nothing to hide. Then, if you look at muslims in the west, who governments may be keen to learn more about, well, its Europe that has the higher populations of muslims, ergo higher populations of radical ones amongst them. I don't know what it is like for you in the US, or for anyone in any other country, but in the UK, there have been countless incidents of individuals over the last decade, of muslims caught in relation to terrorist activities, and they keep coming out of the woodwork. These are people who our intelligence agencies NEED to be able to spy on, and if that means they may have reason to snoop around to find out who i am, good, they won't find anything that i wouldn't say to them if they popped around in person instead, at least they aren't having to waste my time finding out whether i'm any kind of threat to national security, they won't have reason to, simple as.

    The only reason i can think that this whole affair is any BIG DEAL, is because the people of the US prefer generally that their government keeps their beaks as far back as possible. You have to have a balance though. You can't just sit back and do nothing, but you can't go too far either. So, for me, i'm happy for government to spy on me if they wish, i hope i provide them with some entertainment until they find a terrorist to follow, so long as they don't come knocking on my door to question me about activities that are in no way indicative of a tendency to blow myself up in a crowded place. That would just be a pointless endeavour.
    For some reason my response to the first paragraph was cropped, but here it goes:

    So, let me get this right. You've accepted the UK government spying on you as a price to using the internet and staying safe from Muslims. But, it gets your ire when you hear that our government does it and does it on a smaller scale than your government?

    How many silly responses will you guys have?

    1) I support Snowden but don't ask me to actually do anything for him, including token things like avoiding Google or Microsoft of Apple products.

    2) From Mr. Liberty himself... "I care about liberty and personal freedoms, but don't ask me about stopping to use Google even though they're passing my information on to the government without warrants." (Don't buy the Google-knows-everything defense --> )

    and then this here above...

    3) "I'm okay with the UK government spying on me to keep me safe, but it's wrong if the US government does the same thing on its citizens." Mitchymo, this is actually the SAME damn rationale from the NSA to spy on us: to keep us safe from terrorists (read: Muslims)!

    You can't help but shake your head at this. And you guys are serious too!

    For what it's worth, when I saw the graphic about how prolific the UK and German governments are at spying on their people, it didn't mean much to me. My attitude is that you, a citizen of your own country, can figure out how much spying you find to be acceptable. I sure as hell wouldn't even have commented on it, because I have enough things going on in my own life.

    I'd love to see Greece's and Iceland's spying data as well. Unfortunately, they didn't even register on Gizmodo's radar (or it could be that they don't collect and publish data on this).
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 15th, 2013 at 09:37 AM.
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Your privacy is violated every time you use the internet. Case in point: posts here should be private to JUB, but they aren't -- they can be found by googling them. You don't have to have an account with google; they track you anyway.
    BECAUSE you agreed to the terms of use and folks like CORNY allow google to take data from JUB servers so they can be found and increase profits.

    LOL... stop making my argument for me. ANYTIME you agree to a user agreement to utilize a service provided by someone else you do so on THEIR terms.
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  45. #45
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Keep on denying it will not change the reality that the media is commenting upon in great detail that Americans are being spied upon by the NSA and that in closed session Congress is grilling FBI officials and intelligence chiefs:

    I quote:

    But senior figures from both parties emerged from the meeting alarmed at the extent of a surveillance program that many claimed never to have heard of until whistleblower Edward Snowden leaked a series of top-secret documents.

    The congressional fury came at the end of a day of fast-moving developments.

    • In a lawsuit filed in New York, the American Civil Liberties Union accused the US government of a process that was "akin to snatching every American's address book".


    unquote

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...nce-programmes
    Their tune will change once they have had the classified briefing that is scheduled next week.

    EVERY SINGLE SENATOR no matter the political bent or their previous statements agrees with PRISM once they are read in.... that will not change. Everyone is not corrupt. I am pretty sure if you go back and look I stated very clearly that once BHO has a clue in office MOST of what he was bitching about for GWB will be saved and increased.

    Meanwhile Europe records every waking moment in the public sphere of a peeking camera but that is no biggy. lol
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  46. #46
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Their tune will change once they have had the classified briefing that is scheduled next week.

    EVERY SINGLE SENATOR no matter the political bent or their previous statements agrees with PRISM once they are read in.... that will not change. Everyone is not corrupt. I am pretty sure if you go back and look I stated very clearly that once BHO has a clue in office MOST of what he was bitching about for GWB will be saved and increased.

    Meanwhile Europe records every waking moment in the public sphere of a peeking camera but that is no biggy. lol
    That you say so.

    I'll wait for the media reports.

  47. #47
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    We abhor and place massive restrictions on video surveillance while Europeans embrace Orwellian monitoring. Same stew, different cooks.
    This is probably where the difference is made and why it isn't the same stew.

    A police officer without much to do could spend his days standing on the street corner watching my to-ing and fro-ing. A video camera would accomplish the same. But if he sets foot on my doorstep or opens my mail, he is answerable to the courts to produce a very good reason why. That's as it should be. There is no reason why people's privacy expectations with respect to postal mail should be watered down for other forms of communication.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  48. #48
    mitchymo
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    So, let me get this right. You've accepted the UK government spying on you as a price to using the internet and staying safe from Muslims.
    No, terrorists.

    But, it gets your ire when you hear that our government does it and does it on a smaller scale than your government?
    No. Where did you get the impression that i care in the slightest? I don't care that your government is spying on its citizens, just like i don't care about mine spying on me, if they did.

    and then this here above...

    3) "I'm okay with the UK government spying on me to keep me safe, but it's wrong if the US government does the same thing on its citizens." Mitchymo, this is actually the SAME damn rationale from the NSA to spy on us: to keep us safe from terrorists (read: Muslims)!
    Where have you gotten me saying its wrong if the US does it? Have i been writing as a schizophrenic or something?

  49. #49
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    This is probably where the difference is made and why it isn't the same stew.

    A police officer without much to do could spend his days standing on the street corner watching my to-ing and fro-ing. A video camera would accomplish the same. But if he sets foot on my doorstep or opens my mail, he is answerable to the courts to produce a very good reason why. That's as it should be. There is no reason why people's privacy expectations with respect to postal mail should be watered down for other forms of communication.
    However... since there is no proof they open mail without warrants that analogy is not accurate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That you say so.

    I'll wait for the media reports.
    I do, wait and learn.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  50. #50
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: Project INDECT: European Surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    BECAUSE you agreed to the terms of use and folks like CORNY allow google to take data from JUB servers so they can be found and increase profits.
    So many issues in one post.

    a) I am not the one "allowing" google to do it, IF at all, it's the owners.
    b) what you post here is public, google collects public data.
    c) it is possible to expose not public data (like PMs, registered e-mail address, etc..) to google - JUB does not do that.
    d) it's easy to say that being on google is only to increase profit. but how many people would know JUB if it weren't for google or some other search engine?
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