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  1. #1
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Apparently the chinese may use it for free for the next 100 years after.

    Clever move ... and one that will shift powers a bit.


    Nicaragua has awarded a Chinese company a 100-year concession to build an alternative to the Panama Canal, in a step that looks set to have profound geopolitical ramifications.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...a-panama-canal
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    ^I quote a paragraph from the captioned article that may prove to be a stumbling block to China's plans:

    Nicaragua has accused Colombia and Costa Rica, which has a claim on territory likely to be used by the new canal, of trying to prevent the project going ahead.

    I believe that with increasing international shipping traffic a case can be made for this new canal without reducing traffic and revenue through the Panama Canal now under Panamanian administration understanding that the increasing size of container ships makes transit of the Panama Canal impossible for newer vessels.

    I see this plan as a positive development for world trade.

  3. #3

    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    This is likely to be motivated as part of what appears to be Chinese preparation for eventual war with the US.

  4. #4
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Now we have three countries to invade or mount a police action: North, Central and South Nicaragua. Bring on W.

  5. #5
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Ah good ole yellow journalism. Wouldn't the new canal be called the "Nicaraguan Canal"?

    This is actually a bit of sordid US history. Originally the canal was supposed to be in Nicaragua but due to a cheaper bid, built it in Panama.

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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This is likely to be motivated as part of what appears to be Chinese preparation for eventual war with the US.
    Plans for an alternative deeper and wider canal to the Panama Canal have been under discussion for very many years to enable today's much larger ships to transit from the Pacific into the Atlantic and vice versa restricted by the narrowness and lack of depth of water in the Panama Canal.

    There is no military advantage to China building a new canal for its enemies could block the canal rapidly by sinking ships in transit which occurred way back in the Suez (canal) conflict of 1956 when the UK, France and Israel invaded Egypt.

  7. #7
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This is likely to be motivated as part of what appears to be Chinese preparation for eventual war with the US.
    Just like when the Panama Canal was built is was clearly US preparation for war with China. Tit for tat.

    I wonder if you have heard the expression "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Ah good ole yellow journalism. Wouldn't the new canal be called the "Nicaraguan Canal"?

    This is actually a bit of sordid US history. Originally the canal was supposed to be in Nicaragua but due to a cheaper bid, built it in Panama.
    Is that sordid history or economics?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  8. #8
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Just like when the Panama Canal was built is was clearly US preparation for war with China.
    That would be Japan. In the early 20th century, China was basically a buffet for the Western Powers & Japan to haggle, bid & war over.

    It actually was built for the reasons we were taught in school. Way shorter than steaming around S America, whether for trade or war.

    BTW, France was the original builder, in 1881. They stopped due to disease. We took it up in 1904, finishing in 1914. We did influence Panama to succeed from Columbia, making it easier & cheaper in the long run than it would have been if we had dealt with Columbia
    Last edited by Lestatnj; June 10th, 2013 at 03:32 PM.

  9. #9
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This is likely to be motivated as part of what appears to be Chinese preparation for eventual war with the US.
    No need for them to go to war when they already have the U.S. indebted to them and pandering to their every needs - it's a guarantee now that China is the world's next superpower - and the U.S. is rolling over like a love-struck puppy for them. EVEN when China has one of the worst human rights records in the entire world, and has zero freedom of speech. Yay for U.S. values of liberty and freedom.

    Reminds me of how the British Empire ulimately fell - by economics. WWII had its impact, but the Marshall Plan finally saw the handing of power to America and the ascendancy of the United States. Now we see the beginning of the same process with China. And for all its military might, the U.S. will not lift a finger to prevent it.

  10. #10
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    No need for them to go to war when they already have the U.S. indebted to them and pandering to their every needs - it's a guarantee now that China is the world's next superpower - and the U.S. is rolling over like a love-struck puppy for them. EVEN when China has one of the worst human rights records in the entire world, and has zero freedom of speech. Yay for U.S. values of liberty and freedom.

    Reminds me of how the British Empire ulimately fell - by economics. WWII had its impact, but the Marshall Plan finally saw the handing of power to America and the ascendancy of the United States. Now we see the beginning of the same process with China. And for all its military might, the U.S. will not lift a finger to prevent it.
    Why would we??? You have any idea how much money we make when China does well?

    Man between this, Manning and Snowden the Amurika Hate is in full bloom.
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  11. #11
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Why would we??? You have any idea how much money we make when China does well?

    Man between this, Manning and Snowden the Amurika Hate is in full bloom.
    Talking logically = hate ?
    Stop being so Nationalistic ....


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  12. #12

    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Good for China. If they can swing this then let them do it.

    American exceptionalism ended when Reagan came to power.

  13. #13
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Good economic sense to invest in infrastructure.
    I hope the USA start to invest infrastructure too ...


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  14. #14
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Why would we??? You have any idea how much money we make when China does well?

    Man between this, Manning and Snowden the Amurika Hate is in full bloom.
    Oh of course - there's MONEY to be made! How stupid of me! Well that makes it ALL fine doesn't it?

    Never mind China beheading people in front of their own open graves, never mind the brutal crackdowns, never mind them forcing a society into enslavement in sweatshops and factories, never mind the hatred of free speech to the extent where a TV camera can barely be turned on without government authorisation - JUST so long as they benefit the oh-so-mighty and wonderful capitalist heaven back in good old United States of Dollars Greed Selfishness Stupidity America, then who the fuck cares about such insignificant matters like the dignity of the human race?

    Really disappointed in you JayHawk, please leave aside your fervent moronic patriotism and get with the real world for JUST a minute. Shaking my head.

  15. #15

    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Good economic sense to invest in infrastructure.
    I hope the USA start to invest infrastructure too ...
    We can't because of the republicans in the House. They want our infrastructure to crumble.

  16. #16
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    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    Oh of course - there's MONEY to be made! How stupid of me! Well that makes it ALL fine doesn't it?

    Never mind China beheading people in front of their own open graves, never mind the brutal crackdowns, never mind them forcing a society into enslavement in sweatshops and factories, never mind the hatred of free speech to the extent where a TV camera can barely be turned on without government authorisation - JUST so long as they benefit the oh-so-mighty and wonderful capitalist heaven back in good old United States of Dollars Greed Selfishness Stupidity America, then who the fuck cares about such insignificant matters like the dignity of the human race?

    Really disappointed in you JayHawk, please leave aside your fervent moronic patriotism and get with the real world for JUST a minute. Shaking my head.
    Oh fuck off... first we invade too many countries and then we are supposed to jump up and defend everything... why don't you and the other america haters get together and decide what we should do... so we can ignore you. Who is China's second most prevalent trading partner??? Is sure as fuck aint us and I don't see the UK closing their Embassy in Beijing? How about you get your own country to do something about the profiteering on Chinese labor and then tell us we are horrible from your high perch.
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  17. #17
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Question,
    I'm sure there are many foreign companies in China.
    What are the basic agreement between these companies and china ?


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  18. #18

    Re: New Pananma Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    Oh of course - there's MONEY to be made! How stupid of me! Well that makes it ALL fine doesn't it?

    Never mind China beheading people in front of their own open graves, never mind the brutal crackdowns, never mind them forcing a society into enslavement in sweatshops and factories, never mind the hatred of free speech to the extent where a TV camera can barely be turned on without government authorisation - JUST so long as they benefit the oh-so-mighty and wonderful capitalist heaven back in good old United States of Dollars Greed Selfishness Stupidity America, then who the fuck cares about such insignificant matters like the dignity of the human race?

    Really disappointed in you JayHawk, please leave aside your fervent moronic patriotism and get with the real world for JUST a minute. Shaking my head.
    You are trying to blame capitalists for wrongs committed by your leftists/socialists/communists/ liberals.

  19. #19

    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Apparently the chinese may use it for free for the next 100 years after.

    Clever move ... and one that will shift powers a bit.



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...a-panama-canal
    The article doesn't say anything about the Chinese using it for free. Did I miss something? A Chinese company, not the Chinese government, will build and run the canal. Why would they let any ships through for free, unless the Chinese shippers are subsidized by the Chinese government, in which case it would be a clear violation of international trade law, permitting other countries to slap retaliatory trade sanctions on Chinese shipped goods.
    Last edited by palemale; June 11th, 2013 at 09:48 AM.

  20. #20
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    I admit my use of "the chinese" was a bit broad. But it's a chinese company so you can count on the government being involved
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    I'm actually very surprised the Chinese are going to build a Nicaraguan canal - they (along with other nations) have become increasingly interested in the opening of the Arctic Sea and want in... Maybe this is their quick & short term solution to the blockade of legalities involved with international trade laws and the UNCLOS?
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  22. #22
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    I've always been rather surprised that there hasn't been a canal built across the isthmus of Mexico, which is 100 miles across. (Coatzacoalcos is on the Gulf of Mexico side.) It's quite a ways closer to principal shipping nations (eastern USA and Canada, Japan, China...) than a cut across Nicaragua is. I don't know much about the geography across Mexico's isthmus - the type and altitude of mountains, etc. A canal across Nicaragua, if it uses Lake Nicaragua as a shortcut, may be shorter.

    I think a canal across Mexico would be used by many shippers.

    Does sea shipping from western Europe to eastern Asia go through the Suez Canal, or does it take the "longer" way through Panama?

    Shipping through that part of the world, skirting the Red Sea between Africa and Asia, brings some rather "dangerous" political geography into play...
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  23. #23
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I've always been rather surprised that there hasn't been a canal built across the isthmus of Mexico, which is 100 miles across. (Coatzacoalcos is on the Gulf of Mexico side.) It's quite a ways closer to principal shipping nations (eastern USA and Canada, Japan, China...) than a cut across Nicaragua is. I don't know much about the geography across Mexico's isthmus - the type and altitude of mountains, etc. A canal across Nicaragua, if it uses Lake Nicaragua as a shortcut, may be shorter.

    I think a canal across Mexico would be used by many shippers.

    Does sea shipping from western Europe to eastern Asia go through the Suez Canal, or does it take the "longer" way through Panama?

    Shipping through that part of the world, skirting the Red Sea between Africa and Asia, brings some rather "dangerous" political geography into play...
    According to google map, it is a huge block of land (with high mountains?)
    Man is good but you are asking too much to dig and remove a solid land mass for such a canal.


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  24. #24

    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    This is actually a bit of sordid US history. Originally the canal was supposed to be in Nicaragua but due to a cheaper bid, built it in Panama.
    And not only that, but since Colombia did not want to cooperate on America's terms, the USA organized a coup in Colombia which conveniently made the district of Panama an "independent" nation whose leaders where puppets answering to the US.

    But who still remembers that today?

  25. #25

    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeno Lorea View Post
    And not only that, but since Colombia did not want to cooperate on America's terms, the USA organized a coup in Colombia which conveniently made the district of Panama an "independent" nation whose leaders where puppets answering to the US.

    But who still remembers that today?
    Everyone remembers who is interested. It appears in all the histories and has often been on TV. It was long ago and would not be handled the same way today. While it is hard to justify in theory, the world, not just the US, needed the canal, and it was good for the local people and would have been a great thing for Columbia. Remember, there could never be an interstate highway, a railroad, a power line, a telephone line, or a pipeline, if any land owner along the way could veto the entire project by saying no. Sometimes the omelet is worth breaking a few eggs.

  26. #26
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Everyone remembers who is interested. It appears in all the histories and has often been on TV. It was long ago and would not be handled the same way today.
    True.

    Today, we would just claim that the Colombians possessed WMDs and that they were training al-Qaeda. Then, we would preemptively invade and take over the whole country.

  27. #27

    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    True.

    Today, we would just claim that the Colombians possessed WMDs and that they were training al-Qaeda. Then, we would preemptively invade and take over the whole country.
    Even as trolling goes, that was very mediocre.

  28. #28
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    The present Panama Canal is too narrow for modern ships and even as is cannot handle the volume of traffic.

    A wider canal would also suit military expansionism.

    Many modern ships are too wide to use the 92-year-old Panama Canal, where traffic is so heavy that vessels still able to squeeze through can face costly delays.
    http://digitaljournal.com/article/41448#ixzz2WTqjxvTe

  29. #29
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Ah good ole yellow journalism. Wouldn't the new canal be called the "Nicaraguan Canal"?

    This is actually a bit of sordid US history. Originally the canal was supposed to be in Nicaragua but due to a cheaper bid, built it in Panama.
    Um, no. The location of the canal was picked by the French, under the leadership of the guy who built the Suez Canal. The route was partly determined by the route of the Panama Railway, which had been built by private investors. The US didn't get involved until the French gave up their effort.

    The sordid part is where the US went along with French advice and supported a revolt in Colombia after the Colombian government rejected the treaty the US Senate had passed. The result was the country of Panama, which thanks to a hefty US payment happily accepted the treaty.

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    *the number is now forty

  30. #30
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    Re: New Panama Canal built by the Chinese in Nicaragua

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    No need for them to go to war when they already have the U.S. indebted to them and pandering to their every needs - it's a guarantee now that China is the world's next superpower - and the U.S. is rolling over like a love-struck puppy for them. EVEN when China has one of the worst human rights records in the entire world, and has zero freedom of speech. Yay for U.S. values of liberty and freedom.

    Reminds me of how the British Empire ulimately fell - by economics. WWII had its impact, but the Marshall Plan finally saw the handing of power to America and the ascendancy of the United States. Now we see the beginning of the same process with China. And for all its military might, the U.S. will not lift a finger to prevent it.
    Super-wealthy businessmen frequently sell out their own countries for more wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    I admit my use of "the chinese" was a bit broad. But it's a chinese company so you can count on the government being involved
    Given that it was a Chinese justice on the world court who provided the vote handing Nicaragua control of a batch of disputed waters, the Chinese government is plainly already involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I've always been rather surprised that there hasn't been a canal built across the isthmus of Mexico, which is 100 miles across. (Coatzacoalcos is on the Gulf of Mexico side.) It's quite a ways closer to principal shipping nations (eastern USA and Canada, Japan, China...) than a cut across Nicaragua is. I don't know much about the geography across Mexico's isthmus - the type and altitude of mountains, etc. A canal across Nicaragua, if it uses Lake Nicaragua as a shortcut, may be shorter.

    I think a canal across Mexico would be used by many shippers.

    Does sea shipping from western Europe to eastern Asia go through the Suez Canal, or does it take the "longer" way through Panama?

    Shipping through that part of the world, skirting the Red Sea between Africa and Asia, brings some rather "dangerous" political geography into play...
    A canal there was considered but abandoned once the French started in Panama. IIRC, it was reconsidered later, the idea being to use nukes to do the excavation work....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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