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  1. #201
    JUB Addict justdra's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    I just read he has been officially charged. Does anyone has a simplified layout of what he did exactly? I mean if he was a contractor, was he allowed to obtain these documents? Did he illegally obtain them and did he leak to the the press in the states or abroad? Also, he couldn't possibly think this would end well for him? He had to know the life he has if officially over, not to mention the fallout to his family. He will be on the run for the rest of his life but more than likely he will be turned over shortly.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3480984.html
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  2. #202
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by justdra View Post
    I just read he has been officially charged. Does anyone has a simplified layout of what he did exactly? I mean if he was a contractor, was he allowed to obtain these documents? Did he illegally obtain them and did he leak to the the press in the states or abroad? Also, he couldn't possibly think this would end well for him? He had to know the life he has if officially over, not to mention the fallout to his family. He will be on the run for the rest of his life but more than likely he will be turned over shortly.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3480984.html
    He already answered all these questions from his video interview. LOL
    Surprised you didn't watch.


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  3. #203
    JUB Addict justdra's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    LOL, no I didn't but I will go back and check it out. Thanks!
    He got that thickness, the kind that make you get up makin' biscuits with breakfast, so gone - Jill Scott - So Gone

  4. #204
    JUB Addict justdra's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Update:

    Thanks Telstra, I just went and read the interview. It was quick and to the point. The way its been all over news, none of which I've sat down and listened to, I figured it would be a long drawn out interview and I just don't have the patience for it. I still think his family will be questioned thoroughly and I still stand the he will be sent back to the US. Hong Kong will get something out of the deal. He is just fodder for slow news and soon as he gets behind bars, they will move on, just like they done with the Bradley guy and only his family and friends will be concerned about him. He made vaild points, all of which I'm sure any thinking person knows, we are in everyone business in the world, who else sets up shop in other country's back yard? That will never change. We are the bully in the world, always will be and not to say we don't do good because we do, but its usually for a price but would I live anywhere, hell nawl. I got the freedom to say shit like this.
    He got that thickness, the kind that make you get up makin' biscuits with breakfast, so gone - Jill Scott - So Gone

  5. #205
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by justdra View Post
    Update:

    Thanks Telstra, I just went and read the interview. It was quick and to the point. The way its been all over news, none of which I've sat down and listened to, I figured it would be a long drawn out interview and I just don't have the patience for it. I still think his family will be questioned thoroughly and I still stand the he will be sent back to the US. Hong Kong will get something out of the deal. He is just fodder for slow news and soon as he gets behind bars, they will move on, just like they done with the Bradley guy and only his family and friends will be concerned about him. He made vaild points, all of which I'm sure any thinking person knows, we are in everyone business in the world, who else sets up shop in other country's back yard? That will never change. We are the bully in the world, always will be and not to say we don't do good because we do, but its usually for a price but would I live anywhere, hell nawl. I got the freedom to say shit like this.
    I'm glad you realize this. I would invite all of those who complain about losing their rights/freedoms or the government being out to get them to live in a country where the government is indeed out to get you and you have no rights. People make these lofty claims because they've experienced nothing different to compare it to.

    As far as Snowden is concerned, regardless of his motives, he broke the law. As a government employee, I have many channels that I can go down to report what I may perceive to be abuses of powers. I even have a method that is set up by the government for me to send concerns directly to members of Congress (including classified information) if I feel that other avenues aren't panning out. This guy had many LEGAL options to pursue and he chose the way that didn't follow the law and so he is being charged with the crimes he committed. Same thing with Bradley Manning. If you take a job and sign the lifetime obligations to protect and not disclose classified information, you become a criminal and a dishonorable person when you break those obligations.

  6. #206
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm glad you realize this. I would invite all of those who complain about losing their rights/freedoms or the government being out to get them to live in a country where the government is indeed out to get you and you have no rights. People make these lofty claims because they've experienced nothing different to compare it to.

    As far as Snowden is concerned, regardless of his motives, he broke the law. As a government employee, I have many channels that I can go down to report what I may perceive to be abuses of powers. I even have a method that is set up by the government for me to send concerns directly to members of Congress (including classified information) if I feel that other avenues aren't panning out. This guy had many LEGAL options to pursue and he chose the way that didn't follow the law and so he is being charged with the crimes he committed. Same thing with Bradley Manning. If you take a job and sign the lifetime obligations to protect and not disclose classified information, you become a criminal and a dishonorable person when you break those obligations.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. Co-sign 100%.

    I'm sure Snowden's glad that his "supporters" aren't even willing to give up Google internet searches. He's going to need someone or something, like an act of God, to stay out of jail.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  7. #207
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    There seems to be a slow leak of more information from Mr. Snowden.

    UK's GCHQ has tapped into the fibre optic network that transports bulk internet transmissions. This 'wiretapping' is being shared with the US.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ju...unications-nsa

    If all the data is being swallowed and retained for analysis, from all and any communication in the world, and the US and the Brits are doing it, then imagine this being done by the Russians and Chinese.

    In the last week, we found out TianHe 2 is the world's fastest supercomputer built in China, developed by China's 'National University of Defence Technology'. At almost 34 Petaflops per sec, all those encrypted business and account transactions happily being hoovered up and 'processed'...
    http://www.idigitaltimes.com/article...processing.htm


  8. #208
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm glad you realize this. I would invite all of those who complain about losing their rights/freedoms or the government being out to get them to live in a country where the government is indeed out to get you and you have no rights. People make these lofty claims because they've experienced nothing different to compare it to.

    As far as Snowden is concerned, regardless of his motives, he broke the law. As a government employee, I have many channels that I can go down to report what I may perceive to be abuses of powers. I even have a method that is set up by the government for me to send concerns directly to members of Congress (including classified information) if I feel that other avenues aren't panning out. This guy had many LEGAL options to pursue and he chose the way that didn't follow the law and so he is being charged with the crimes he committed. Same thing with Bradley Manning. If you take a job and sign the lifetime obligations to protect and not disclose classified information, you become a criminal and a dishonorable person when you break those obligations.
    Easy said than don't.
    You not in Snowden or Mannings shoes. If you are them, you will become them


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  9. #209

    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Edward Snowden is SO cute! I'd get him arrested, handcuffed and then do gay things to him.

  10. #210
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Easy said than don't.
    You not in Snowden or Mannings shoes. If you are them, you will become them
    What does having to be in their shoes have to do with anything? It's not like their family was kidnapped and threatened with death unless they revealed government secrets. These traitors willfully chose to divulge classified information. So if you're saying I've never been in the shoes of someone who chose one day to just break the law and damage the national security of their country, then you're right. I never have been there and I never will be.

  11. #211
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong via Moscow for an undisclosed third country.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ng-kong-Moscow

    May the Force be with him.

  12. #212
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Right,he goes to countries that our hostile to us and we consider him a hero?

  13. #213
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Right,he goes to countries that our hostile to us and we consider him a hero?
    That the United States authorities have requested Hong Kong to honour its extradition treaty with the United States it makes good sense to me and presumably to Mr. Snowden that he transfers to a jurisdiction without an extradition treaty with the United States.

  14. #214
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong via Moscow for an undisclosed third country.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ng-kong-Moscow

    May the Force be with him.
    Snowden needs to adjust to eating fish regularly for Iceland might well serve his agenda.

  15. #215
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    I suspect that very soon, he will just disappear. Literally.

  16. #216
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    He landed in Moscow. The russians are trying to keep him there, but it is said that he wants to leave for Venezuela. Russian officials said that, contrary to HK, they don't shy the confrontation with the US. But imho this would be a bad move, as it would label him even more of a "traitor". On the other hand, I doubt that he is safe in Venezuela ...
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  17. #217
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview


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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    If he wanted to do this,there were places and people for him to go to here. Sorry,I'm not on board with him.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    The Extradition Treaty between the US and Ecuador:

    http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/t...xt-usa-ecu.pdf

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The Extradition Treaty between the US and Ecuador:

    http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/t...xt-usa-ecu.pdf
    Thanks for posting this.

  21. #221

    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Wherever he goes, he will not be safe.
    But whatever (terrible) fate awaits Mr Snowden, we now know there has been a failure of oversight and accountability by democratic institutions of the security apparatus. It has been long in the making.

    We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. This alarming, unchecked growth of the intelligence sector and the increasingly heavy reliance on subcontractors to carry out core intelligence tasks – now estimated to account for approximately 60% of the intelligence budget – have intensified since the 9/11 attacks and what was, arguably, our regrettable over-reaction to them.

    The roots of this trend go back at least as far as the Reagan era, when the political right became obsessed with limiting government and denigrating those who worked for the public sector. It began a wave of privatization – because everything was held to be more "cost-efficient" when done by the private sector – and that only deepened with the political polarization following the election of 2000. As it turns out, the promises of cheaper, more efficient services were hollow, but inertia carried the day.

    Today, the intelligence sector is so immense that no one person can manage, or even comprehend, its reach. When an operation in the field goes south, who would we prefer to try and correct the damage: a government employee whose loyalty belongs to his country (despite a modest salary), or the subcontractor who wants to ensure that his much fatter paycheck keeps coming?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-complex-abuse

  22. #222
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    Wherever he goes, he will not be safe.
    But whatever (terrible) fate awaits Mr Snowden, we now know there has been a failure of oversight and accountability by democratic institutions of the security apparatus. It has been long in the making.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-complex-abuse
    You must not be familiar with how the government of the US works. The US Congress legislated these programs, the US Judiciary approved these programs, and the US Executive Branch administers these programs. That is the very definition of oversight in this country. We are a representative form of government, which means that accountability follows the system set up in the Constitution. It does not mean everything the government does is publicly detailed and everyone votes on it or you go around and get every citizen's OK to proceed. The only reason you see the minor outrage with some members of Congress right now is because it's politically convenient to do so.

  23. #223
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You must not be familiar with how the government of the US works. The US Congress legislated these programs, the US Judiciary approved these programs, and the US Executive Branch administers these programs. That is the very definition of oversight in this country. We are a representative form of government, which means that accountability follows the system set up in the Constitution. It does not mean everything the government does is publicly detailed and everyone votes on it or you go around and get every citizen's OK to proceed. The only reason you see the minor outrage with some members of Congress right now is because it's politically convenient to do so.
    That's the theory....then there's reality....keep on regurgitating your spiel for I am sure that there are sufficient naive people out there happy to believe that every thing is fine and dandy when the NSA is defending Americans from those nasty foreign terrorists.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    It appears the US failed to submit a valid extradition request to Hong Kong in that it was not accompanied by an Interpol warrant.

    "...It looks like there was a technicality," he (i.e. CBS News White House Correspondent Major Garrett) continued. "There was a lack of an Interpol warrant in addition to the charges rendered by the United States government, and that might have created a seam, a very small seam in which the Hong Kong authorities allowed themselves to let Edward Snowden out of there. ....
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162...e-chase-is-on/

  25. #225
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Fucking buffoons in our government! What the fuck really goes on within the realm of the powers that be... that they can't even muster the scintilla of being above board by getting a proper warrant. Either they are complete morons or completely without a conscience. Tigerfan, I'd really love to believe things are much closer to what you say. It would be wonderful for America and the world. But the things we find out about just how deep the secrecy and corruption has gone in the past, plus with how greatly technology has advanced and will continue to do so ... you just are too much of a Boy Scout here. I hate being cynical, but forewarned is forearmed.
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  26. #226
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You must not be familiar with how the government of the US works. The US Congress legislated these programs, the US Judiciary approved these programs, and the US Executive Branch administers these programs. That is the very definition of oversight in this country. We are a representative form of government, which means that accountability follows the system set up in the Constitution. It does not mean everything the government does is publicly detailed and everyone votes on it or you go around and get every citizen's OK to proceed. The only reason you see the minor outrage with some members of Congress right now is because it's politically convenient to do so.
    I note that you do not allow that Congress probably had no idea what it was doing, even if the legislation was read, much less thought about.

    I note that you do not allow that the secret judiciary almost never met a submission it didn't like.

    I note that you do not suggest that executive oversight was meaningful. But they did understand some of it: NSA spies on US persons to a limited extent and gets GCHQ to spy on all other US persons.

    In point of fact if NSA has no idea to this day what Snowden accessed and took there was no oversight.

    You seemed adverse to use the word "meaningful" in front of "oversight."

    Your argument - as middle school civics as it is - falls within the "catch and release" category.

  27. #227
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    It appears the US failed to submit a valid extradition request to Hong Kong in that it was not accompanied by an Interpol warrant.



    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162...e-chase-is-on/
    Or if you read the entire article... it looks as if Hong Kong, specifically China didnt want to be involved and preferred to find a slight seam to get out of being a part of that process.

    Guess it is up to the drones now.....
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Or if you read the entire article... it looks as if Hong Kong, specifically China didnt want to be involved and preferred to find a slight seam to get out of being a part of that process. .....
    No doubt in my mind about that.

  29. #229
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Or if you read the entire article... it looks as if Hong Kong, specifically China didnt want to be involved and preferred to find a slight seam to get out of being a part of that process.

    Guess it is up to the drones now.....
    What ?
    Droning the people who want Snowden arrested lol


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  30. #230
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    So far I haven't heard any other country denounce Snowden or his actions. You would think that as this plays out on the world stage that if other countries saw what he did as espionage, they would denounce his actions or at the least announce that they would extradite him if he enters their jurisdiction. Have I missed any outcry from the countries that believe the United States Government is in the right?

    As it says above in Telstra's signature line, never listen to a one sided story and judge.

    @ tigerfan, If you used the channels that you have for reporting abuses, and your efforts are ignored or dismissed repeatedly, and you know for a fact, that these abuses you are reporting violate the constitutional protections, would you continue to stay silent or would you finally alert the news media?

    How do we know that Snowden didn't use these channels before going to the public airwaves? Because our government tells us so?

    I do not like to mistrust my government, but my government has proven itself to be untrustworthy over a series of several administrations.

  31. #231
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    The USA gave political asylum from many countries all the time.
    Why two or two face ? That would make the US a big hypocrites.


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  32. #232
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm glad you realize this. I would invite all of those who complain about losing their rights/freedoms or the government being out to get them to live in a country where the government is indeed out to get you and you have no rights. People make these lofty claims because they've experienced nothing different to compare it to.
    Irrelevant. That's a prescription for sliding quietly into a total police state: so long as there's someone worse, don't complain!

    No -- we already live in a country where the courts say the police can lie to us. So out operating assumption, since the police have never neglected to use a power handed to them, should be that they are indeed lying to us.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #233
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong via Moscow for an undisclosed third country.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ng-kong-Moscow

    May the Force be with him.
    And the Schwartz.






    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I note that you do not allow that Congress probably had no idea what it was doing, even if the legislation was read, much less thought about.

    I note that you do not allow that the secret judiciary almost never met a submission it didn't like.

    I note that you do not suggest that executive oversight was meaningful. But they did understand some of it: NSA spies on US persons to a limited extent and gets GCHQ to spy on all other US persons.

    In point of fact if NSA has no idea to this day what Snowden accessed and took there was no oversight.

    You seemed adverse to use the word "meaningful" in front of "oversight."

    Your argument - as middle school civics as it is - falls within the "catch and release" category.
    King John had oversight, too. That's why they didn't actually need that magna carta thing.


    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That's the theory....then there's reality....keep on regurgitating your spiel for I am sure that there are sufficient naive people out there happy to believe that every thing is fine and dandy when the NSA is defending Americans from those nasty foreign terrorists.
    Care to provide anything of substance to back up your claim of reality (or even a statement of what you think reality is)? You may view me as regurgitating spiel, but at least I back mine up with substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Fucking buffoons in our government! What the fuck really goes on within the realm of the powers that be... that they can't even muster the scintilla of being above board by getting a proper warrant. Either they are complete morons or completely without a conscience. Tigerfan, I'd really love to believe things are much closer to what you say. It would be wonderful for America and the world. But the things we find out about just how deep the secrecy and corruption has gone in the past, plus with how greatly technology has advanced and will continue to do so ... you just are too much of a Boy Scout here. I hate being cynical, but forewarned is forearmed.
    They did have a proper warrant. See Article 8, Section 3 in this link (https://bulk.resource.org/gpo.gov/do.../105/td003.pdf) for the agreement between the US and Hong Kong. As you can see, it makes no mention of the requirement of an international warrant (INTERPOL warrant.) It only requires a warrant signed by a judge or magistrate and evidence of wrongdoing. These were submitted to Hong Kong. However, they were looking for a way out, so they made up something to justify it. The procedures were done right.

    And I don't buy your "government is corrupt and against us" conspiracy theories. As I've asked in most of these threads, where is the evidence that there has been any illegal targeting or collection of Americans? It just isn't there. When you show me actual evidence, then we'll talk. Just assuming a party is guilty because I want to believe it and a proven liar has said it isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I note that you do not allow that Congress probably had no idea what it was doing, even if the legislation was read, much less thought about.

    I note that you do not allow that the secret judiciary almost never met a submission it didn't like.

    I note that you do not suggest that executive oversight was meaningful. But they did understand some of it: NSA spies on US persons to a limited extent and gets GCHQ to spy on all other US persons.

    In point of fact if NSA has no idea to this day what Snowden accessed and took there was no oversight.

    You seemed adverse to use the word "meaningful" in front of "oversight."

    Your argument - as middle school civics as it is - falls within the "catch and release" category.
    I am adverse to the idea that meaningful has any objective meaning to it at all. Everything that has occurred has followed the lawful process outlined in the Constitution. Whether you personally feel that is "meaningful" or not is irrelevant. If crimes have been committed or the Constitutional process has been violated, let's see some evidence. That seems to be severely lacking in many of these posts. Existence of a surveillance program is not proof of its use against American citizens. No proof of its use against American citizens has been provided. The only thing we have is the word of a traitor who clearly had a vendetta against the government. If he wanted so badly to get the word out that the government is breaking all of these laws and violating the Constitution, where is the proof? Where are samples of all of this collection they're doing against Americans?

    So I'll note that your first point is complete speculation. You have no idea what Congress knew. Premises that contain the word probably don't tend to be backed up with much fact, only speculation.

    I'll note that your second point is again speculation because you have no idea what the "secret judiciary" allows and doesn't allow. And regardless, it is the court set up by law to make these decisions. The judges who sit on that court are appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, so I'm sure you'll have a hard time making the case it's unconstitutional.

    I'll note that your third point is yet again speculation because you have no idea what oversight the executive branch subjects these programs to. You like to back your point up with more speculation (do you have any proof that the NSA spied on Americans and do you have any proof that GCHQ has spied on Americans and turned it over to the NSA?) If there is such lax oversight, where are all of the cases of these innocent Americans being prosecuted for all of this surveillance they are being subjected to?

    I'll note tht in your final point, you have no idea what NSA knows and doesn't know. They're not go to itemize lists of what they have records of Snowden taking and print it in the newspaper. It's like any criminal investigation - they're not going to give a play-by-play of the investigation.

    You seem adverse to the idea of requiring evidence to prove any truth and seem to just accept speculation and theories at face value. I wonder how you would feel if you were dragged into court and convicted of a crime with the case against you being nothing but speculation and conspiracy theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    So far I haven't heard any other country denounce Snowden or his actions. You would think that as this plays out on the world stage that if other countries saw what he did as espionage, they would denounce his actions or at the least announce that they would extradite him if he enters their jurisdiction. Have I missed any outcry from the countries that believe the United States Government is in the right?

    As it says above in Telstra's signature line, never listen to a one sided story and judge.

    @ tigerfan, If you used the channels that you have for reporting abuses, and your efforts are ignored or dismissed repeatedly, and you know for a fact, that these abuses you are reporting violate the constitutional protections, would you continue to stay silent or would you finally alert the news media?

    How do we know that Snowden didn't use these channels before going to the public airwaves? Because our government tells us so?

    I do not like to mistrust my government, but my government has proven itself to be untrustworthy over a series of several administrations.
    Really? Why would any country care about the US's problem with someone committing espionage by releasing their secrets? And other countries have denounced Snowden. Angela Merkel from Germany for one. Great Britain denounced him. And many others have done so by specifically stating they will not give him asylum if he tried.

    I would agree with your listening to a one-sided story. However, that applies in all cases. Many of you seem to be listening to Snowden's claim and accepting them as fact without requiring any evidence to support his claim that the government is spying on Americans.

    Since my channels include everyone from my direct supervisor to my Office of General Counsel to my Inspector General to the Attorney General to Members of Congress, I would say that if everyone of those channels returned back answers I didn't want, then obviously the concern is not illegal or I have a view on it that differs from what the law says. I would under no circumstances take information I was sworn to protect to the news media simply because I personally believed it was wrong.

    Since I'm not investigating the situation, I don't know what Edward Snowden did or didn't report. However, he has not once claimed that he followed any chain of command or reporting system. Instead, he's made several comments to the fact that he saw this information and "felt like something had to be done."

    And exactly how has the government proven itself untrustworthy? You're still alive. You're still posting your thoughts and opinions under your rights of free speech online. You're a free man who hasn't been imprisoned for speaking out against the government. I just don't understand what you feel you've lost. If anything, you have more rights and opportunities today than you did 15-20 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Irrelevant. That's a prescription for sliding quietly into a total police state: so long as there's someone worse, don't complain!

    No -- we already live in a country where the courts say the police can lie to us. So out operating assumption, since the police have never neglected to use a power handed to them, should be that they are indeed lying to us.
    Not irrelevant at all. You provide no proof of a loss of any rights or liberties yet you complain constantly about it. It's because you don't know what losing rights and liberties is because you've never experienced it. Try going to a friendly middle east country (Qatar for instance.) Try being gay there. Try saying what you think about the government there. Try having a muscle magazine on you when you enter the country. And this is one of the more westernized countries out there. So what I'm actually saying is that you need to get a perspective on what it is you're complaining about before you actually start complaining because it's very possible you're complaint isn't really valid.

    And what are you talking about with courts and police lying to you?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    "The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

    -- Kosh of Vorlon

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    I wonder how many of the puritan sisters will be preaching the book of Snowden once he starts selling secrets to other nations to make ends meet.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  38. #238
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And what are you talking about with courts and police lying to you?
    The US Supreme Court has ruled that police can lie to suspects to trick information from them, and to anyone associated with an investigation for the same reason, whether as to facts or as to the law. They're even authorized to lie to the media if they decide it will aid an investigation.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; June 23rd, 2013 at 08:29 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I wonder how many of the puritan sisters will be preaching the book of Snowden once he starts selling secrets to other nations to make ends meet.
    I think you puritans who think the government is holy and without stain will be pleased.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    ...I would agree with your listening to a one-sided story. However, that applies in all cases. Many of you seem to be listening to Snowden's claim and accepting them as fact without requiring any evidence to support his claim that the government is spying on Americans...

    ...And exactly how has the government proven itself untrustworthy? You're still alive. You're still posting your thoughts and opinions under your rights of free speech online. You're a free man who hasn't been imprisoned for speaking out against the government. I just don't understand what you feel you've lost. If anything, you have more rights and opportunities today than you did 15-20 years ago...
    I am waiting for evidence, but I do not believe that the government will be forthcoming with evidence that it has not done these acts either. The information that have read discusses NSA facilities in several states that have the capabilities to download and store entire phone conversations, entire blocks of thousands of emails at a time, Thousands of banking transactions, and entire blocks of information and store it for retrieval later. Indiscriminate storage of all information for later retrieval does not tell me that my government is tracking suspected terrorists. Nor does it tell me that the government is not collecting conversations of my fellow citizens. The government has been sued by the ACLU demanding that the government disclose what information that they have collected on that Organization. The government has been proven to have lied to us in the past. Watergate, Iran Contra, Mission Accomplished, and the patriot act to name a few. The patriot act, was a wholesale revocation of individual rights. The idea that Americans have to give up individual rights to protect ourselves from terrorism is bullshit. The Patriot Act has done nothing identifiable to reduce terrorism, and if the government has any evidence, they have not shared that, which you would think they would want to do to show the citizens that these measures are working. If you evaluate the government only on Human Rights Violations, we probably don't have it too bad, unless of course you want to marry someone you love.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    I have been trying to figure out what is happening. I keep getting emails stating Snowden is right in what he is doing very few stating he is a traitor. The ones stating he is a traitor are those who I wouldn't believe if they said my pants were on fire. Today I got emails from BoldProgre​ssives & RootsActio​n Team, both stating to protect Snowden from the Government.
    Those of you at JUB that are saying Snowden was right in what he did I will trust what you say. I think I have just made up my mind. Thanks.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  42. #242
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    I am waiting for evidence, but I do not believe that the government will be forthcoming with evidence that it has not done these acts either. The information that have read discusses NSA facilities in several states that have the capabilities to download and store entire phone conversations, entire blocks of thousands of emails at a time, Thousands of banking transactions, and entire blocks of information and store it for retrieval later. Indiscriminate storage of all information for later retrieval does not tell me that my government is tracking suspected terrorists. Nor does it tell me that the government is not collecting conversations of my fellow citizens. The government has been sued by the ACLU demanding that the government disclose what information that they have collected on that Organization. The government has been proven to have lied to us in the past. Watergate, Iran Contra, Mission Accomplished, and the patriot act to name a few. The patriot act, was a wholesale revocation of individual rights. The idea that Americans have to give up individual rights to protect ourselves from terrorism is bullshit. The Patriot Act has done nothing identifiable to reduce terrorism, and if the government has any evidence, they have not shared that, which you would think they would want to do to show the citizens that these measures are working. If you evaluate the government only on Human Rights Violations, we probably don't have it too bad, unless of course you want to marry someone you love.
    You do realize it is impossible to prove a negative right? That's why the Constitution requires innocence to be assumed and guilt to be proven. The burden should be on those who make an accusation to prove that the accusation is correct.

    And did you know that Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, Google, Apple, and numerous other companies already possess the capability to store all of that information you mention and more? I don't know why it's so hard to explain to people that just because something is technically capable of something doesn't mean that it is or ever will be used for doing that. Again, as I have said before, there has been no evidence produced at all that the government is storing all of the data in the world (or even any data on US citizens at all) in this data center.

    Yes the government has been sued by the ACLU as have many organizations. What's the point? The lawsuit hasn't even been accepted by a court yet.

    And several of your examples of being "lied to" aren't exactly what you claim. For instance, "Mission Accomplished" was a political speech George W. Bush made, but was not actually any official policy or promise to the American people. The Patriot Act was a piece of legislation that was available for anyone (including the voting members of Congress) to read. And out of a government that's over 220 years old (depending on what you considering the starting point of the government), I'd say it's a good track record given that fallible humans run the government, just like they run everything else.

    And the Patriot Act doesn't require you to give up individual rights and I haven't seen anyone who has been able to show that their rights have been violated in any way or that they've lost any freedom at all. Of course the government isn't going to come out and say "we stopped a terrorist attack today by monitoring the phone calls in Pakistan of this individual" because you not only burn your methods of being able to get that information, but you tip off other terrorists and cause them to change their modes of behavior to avoid detection.

    And I, for one, can go out and marry anyone I want right now. I'm sorry you live in a state you can't, but you could certainly move to a state where you are allowed to. I would consider that a violation of human rights though.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I have been trying to figure out what is happening. I keep getting emails stating Snowden is right in what he is doing very few stating he is a traitor. The ones stating he is a traitor are those who I wouldn't believe if they said my pants were on fire. Today I got emails from BoldProgre​ssives & RootsActio​n Team, both stating to protect Snowden from the Government.
    Those of you at JUB that are saying Snowden was right in what he did I will trust what you say. I think I have just made up my mind. Thanks.
    Do you really base your opinions of of what e-mails and people on JUB tell you? Go read the documentation provided, do some research on the laws and regulations, read up on the background of places like the NSA, etc. Ingest information and make your own decision. Don't go by what other people tell you think.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I have been trying to figure out what is happening. I keep getting emails stating Snowden is right in what he is doing very few stating he is a traitor. The ones stating he is a traitor are those who I wouldn't believe if they said my pants were on fire. Today I got emails from BoldProgre​ssives & RootsActio​n Team, both stating to protect Snowden from the Government.
    Those of you at JUB that are saying Snowden was right in what he did I will trust what you say. I think I have just made up my mind. Thanks.
    I trust you to make the judgment you think right - no matter what your decision is.

    If you will look at the excerpts from the secret Memorandum I posted at #206 in the Prism Thread

    and the measured response from tigerfan in the PRISM Thread (Post #215),

    you will see that the US citizen's relief from proceedings incident to the Government's finding of a non-national security crime are burdensome, onerous, exhorbitantly expensive. Any relief is doomed to failure as the accused must establish that the evidence was "unlawfully acquired" or not acquired pursuant to the appropriate paperwork, all of which is conveniently secret. The Government should have to approve lawfulness.

    I, personally, am sorry that Mr. Snowden had to take this course. But, I am glad he did: our Congresspersons seem not to have been minding the store.

  44. #244
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I suspect that very soon, he will just disappear. Literally.
    yep, the plane will NOT make it to the destination.
    one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

  45. #245
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Do you really base your opinions of of what e-mails and people on JUB tell you?
    I don't....especially your theoretical reasoning that imagines all government employees never break the law and are Heaven bound as a result of their saintly lives.

  46. #246
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    If you will look at the excerpts from the secret Memorandum I posted at #206 in the Prism Thread

    and the measured response from tigerfan in the PRISM Thread (Post #215),

    you will see that the US citizen's relief from proceedings incident to the Government's finding of a non-national security crime are burdensome, onerous, exhorbitantly expensive. Any relief is doomed to failure as the accused must establish that the evidence was "unlawfully acquired" or not acquired pursuant to the appropriate paperwork, all of which is conveniently secret. The Government should have to approve lawfulness.
    Exactly. Laws all over the country also exempt goverment officials from doing actual harm so long as they claim they were endeavoring to do their jobs. The mere existence of such laws proves we have had rights taken away, because they allow authorities to detain, jail, and otherwise harm citizens with no recourse allowed.

    "With liberty for the rich and the justice you can afford" is the truth.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  47. #247
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I don't....especially your theoretical reasoning that imagines all government employees never break the law and are Heaven bound as a result of their saintly lives.
    Heh -- yeah. Reading his posts is like qtching a "science fiction" movie where they obviously didn't have any advisors who grasped so much as middle school physics: the suspension of disbelief required is enormous... and disgusting.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #248
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Heh -- yeah. Reading his posts is like qtching a "science fiction" movie where they obviously didn't have any advisors who grasped so much as middle school physics: the suspension of disbelief required is enormous... and disgusting.
    I believe he needs a prescription, prescribing a daily dosage of George Orwell's classics..beginning with 1984.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    One of my favourite quotes from 1984:

    Winston Smith: Does Big Brother even exist?

    O'Brien: Of course he exists.

    Winston Smith: No, I mean... does he exist like you or me?

    O'Brien: You do not exist.

  50. #250
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You do realize it is impossible to prove a negative right? That's why the Constitution requires innocence to be assumed and guilt to be proven. The burden should be on those who make an accusation to prove that the accusation is correct.

    And did you know that Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, Google, Apple, and numerous other companies already possess the capability to store all of that information you mention and more? I don't know why it's so hard to explain to people that just because something is technically capable of something doesn't mean that it is or ever will be used for doing that. Again, as I have said before, there has been no evidence produced at all that the government is storing all of the data in the world (or even any data on US citizens at all) in this data center.

    Yes the government has been sued by the ACLU as have many organizations. What's the point? The lawsuit hasn't even been accepted by a court yet.

    And several of your examples of being "lied to" aren't exactly what you claim. For instance, "Mission Accomplished" was a political speech George W. Bush made, but was not actually any official policy or promise to the American people. The Patriot Act was a piece of legislation that was available for anyone (including the voting members of Congress) to read. And out of a government that's over 220 years old (depending on what you considering the starting point of the government), I'd say it's a good track record given that fallible humans run the government, just like they run everything else.

    And the Patriot Act doesn't require you to give up individual rights and I haven't seen anyone who has been able to show that their rights have been violated in any way or that they've lost any freedom at all. Of course the government isn't going to come out and say "we stopped a terrorist attack today by monitoring the phone calls in Pakistan of this individual" because you not only burn your methods of being able to get that information, but you tip off other terrorists and cause them to change their modes of behavior to avoid detection.

    And I, for one, can go out and marry anyone I want right now. I'm sorry you live in a state you can't, but you could certainly move to a state where you are allowed to. I would consider that a violation of human rights though.


    Do you really base your opinions of of what e-mails and people on JUB tell you? Go read the documentation provided, do some research on the laws and regulations, read up on the background of places like the NSA, etc. Ingest information and make your own decision. Don't go by what other people tell you think.
    1. I don't go by what others say.
    2. I really didn't say what my decision was. I said I trust what Jubbers say because I know their beliefs and how they lead their lives. And just look at Palbert's post #243. The ones I believe will show more of what they are going by. Palbert did just that.
    palbert... If you will look at the excerpts from the secret Memorandum I posted at #206 in the Prism Thread

    and the measured response from tigerfan in the PRISM Thread (Post #215),
    I am going there right now.
    Last edited by White Eagle; June 24th, 2013 at 08:47 AM.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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