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  1. #101
    JUB Addict evanrick's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Whoa -- you're deciding what a thread someone else started is about, and adding to its purpose things he didn't state in the opening post? And you're jumping on Corny for being nice about things (as opposed to just deleting your posts and letting us all know there was a crybaby issue)?





    You're wrong: according to the sources you gave, most Americans do NOT agree with you, they agree with Snowden (his views, if not his actions). The issue isn't whether, given court orders, the NSA can track the communications of Americans believed to be connected with terrorist activities -- that's what most Americans think is fine -- but whether, without any court approval at all, the NSA can record and keep on file all your email, all your text messages, all your phone calls, all your faxes, and a lot more, along with those of numerous citizens of our allies, not just of known criminals and suspects.
    Id have to agree with this premise, Americas opinions about warrantless wiretapping and the new NSA scandal isnt fully developed yet. To say the American people support the NSA doesn't make their activity any less unconstitutional.
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  2. #102
    JUB Addict evanrick's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    SO here is a goofy question for all of you end of the world people... the government is getting this from private corporations. SO what you are saying is that it is ok for Apple or Google or ATT to track your every movement but not for the government to look for terrorist movements in that same pile. What a crock of shit.
    Nobody is saying its ok, not sure where you got than from. To assume that because something happens it suddenly makes it acceptable, thats the worst reason to justify anything if i ever heard one.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    For those interested in standing with him, there's an interesting pair of petitions at www.whitehouse.gov -- go there and search for the snowden petitions.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; June 12th, 2013 at 12:51 AM.

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    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #104
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Its not the same. Say Prostitution and porn are illegal.
    You are already guilty and caught by this spy network. What is your defense ?
    That is in no way how it is being used. It could evolve into something akin to warrant less searches where the info is used in a court of law but only after our constitution is amended... which it wont be.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  5. #105
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Who here has said it's okay for the companies to do this? My position has always been that if they're going to collect data on their customers, they should have to pay for every piece -- say, fifty cents per item of information, every time it's used or shared.

    BTW, like LostLover, you're being deceptive about the issue: it isn't that they're looking for terrorists, it's that they're looking at everything everyone does, and saving it all in archives -- where it can, and at their whim, will be used against you.
    Quote Originally Posted by evanrick View Post
    Nobody is saying its ok, not sure where you got than from. To assume that because something happens it suddenly makes it acceptable, thats the worst reason to justify anything if i ever heard one.
    Do either of you have a phone or internet service? Read the user agreement... YOU accept those conditions in that contract. THAT is who says it is alright...



    Weird...

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is the place where the unworkable idealism meets reality on these discussion forums.... lol
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  6. #106
    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Meanwhile the guy disappeared. Apparently he signed out of the hotel right after the interview. Maybe it was just a ruse and he had tickets to get out of HK all the time?
    So, are you still using Google, Yahoo!, Microsoft, Bing, Twitter, Apple and other services from American technology companies?

    BTW, if I were Snowden, and you were American, I'd be kicking myself for risking imprisonment for exposing a secret, only to find out that my fellow Americans were continuing to use Apple, Yahoo!, and Microsoft products despite their turning over of call and e-mail logs to the government.

    Why protest and the people you're trying to reach, Americans, couldn't give a shit?

    For the record, I think this is as much about Snowden's ego than government intrusion. I think you can call his "efforts," or runnings from responsibility, a failure due to the numerous polls that show that most Americans have no issue whatsoever with what NSA has done.

    I would also like to add that it's almost comical that some people come on here complaining about the NSA, but a) say NOTHING about their own government's role in this story and b) don't have enough balls/testosterone to say that they're willing to stop supporting these companies for "spying" on Americans.

    All in all, Snowden's efforts are an unequivocable failure: Americans don't care and supporters (domestic and foreign) aren't willing to stop supporting these companies that helped the NSA conduct these searches.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 12th, 2013 at 06:18 AM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  7. #107
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    So, are you still using Google, Yahoo!, Microsoft, Bing, Twitter, Apple and other services from American technology companies?
    You ask this question twice.
    It is the wrong question.


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  8. #108
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    You ask this question twice.
    It is the wrong question.
    So, basically, you're just talk too? I guess your anger only goes so far.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  9. #109
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Seriously, I'm never shocked at some people's responses: "I'm mad at such and such, but I won't do anything other than bitch and moan about it."

    And, when asked what you're going to do about it, besides bitching and moaning, they respond, "It is the wrong question."

    GTFO.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  10. #110
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Companies don't work for you. Our government theoretically does. And because the people seem okay with it at the moment...well, so what? We need a serious discussion about what the loss of privacy supposedly to protect our security entails. You give up a chunk now, it ain't gonna come back later. And the ground is set for a lot bigger chunk to be taken away from under your nose. Trusting the government with so much sensitive information is not something I want to gamble on.
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  11. #111
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    LL, you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I already pointed it out in post #58, but I'll repeat it once again, just for you.

    I have NOT been bitching about the companies doing what they were forced to. I haven't even been bitching about your law-abiding government. All the time, in this thread, I have been posting about Mr. Snowden (who, by the way, is the topic of this thread), his bravery and my admiration for him.

    Your attempts at twisting this around are wretched.
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  12. #112
    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    LL, you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I already pointed it out in post #58, but I'll repeat it once again, just for you.

    I have NOT been bitching about the companies doing what they were forced to. I haven't even been bitching about your law-abiding government. All the time, in this thread, I have been posting about Mr. Snowden (who, by the way, is the topic of this thread), his bravery and my admiration for him.

    Your attempts at twisting this around are wretched.
    Why don't you brush up on your reading comprehension skills...

    You sure as hell haven't made a peep about Google and other American technology companies assisting the NSA...

    That's why I asked you why you haven't. I feel that if you support what Snowden has done, which you've said you do, you can easily abstain from doing business with the companies that Snowden felt stole Americans' information.

    You should be willing to do something...anything...besides talking about it.

    On a side note: If you've gone back to using Google, Microsoft Office or called using an iPhone, then I guess you're just talk. Snowden is looking at many years in jail, and a supporter all the way from Germany, can't even abstain from using a product of a company Snowden was targeting. ***shakes head***

    What good are you to him, and his "cause," if you can only offer words? (Not a rhetorical question. I'm serious.)
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 12th, 2013 at 09:27 AM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  13. #113
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    In an interview with the South China Morning Post Snowden says he will stay in Hong Kong and let it determine his fate.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3428057.html

    Some experts are saying that Snowden could manage to stay on Hong Kong for years or even obtain asylum. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ong-kong-years

    On the other hand the director of Human Rights Watch warns that Hong Kong is not safe for him given its past co-operation with the US. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...safe-hong-kong

  14. #114
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Why don't you brush up on your reading comprehension skills...

    You sure as hell haven't made a peep about Google and other American technology companies assisting the NSA...

    That's why I asked you why you haven't. I feel that if you support what Snowden has done, which you've said you do, you can easily abstain from doing business with the companies that Snowden felt stole Americans' information.

    You should be willing to do something...anything...besides talking about it.

    On a side note: If you've gone back to using Google, Microsoft Office or called using an iPhone, then I guess you're just talk. Snowden is looking at many years in jail, and a supporter all the way from Germany, can't even abstain from using a product of a company Snowden was targeting. ***shakes head***

    What good are you to him, and his "cause," if you can only offer words? (Not a rhetorical question. I'm serious.)
    I do not see that this advances the thread topic. I certainly don't see the connection of this thread topic to using or not using Google, etc.

  15. #115
    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I do not see that this advances the thread topic. I certainly don't see the connection of this thread topic to using or not using Google, etc.
    Corny has sided with Snowden. I asked what he's done to support Snowden, besides offer his best wishes and, well, um, we're still waiting for a response.

    Some guy, you don't even know, who you said you support, risks imprisonment for "doing the right things," and you can't even say what [token] actions you'd be willing to take to show solidarity with this "whistle-blower"?

    There's a big enthusiasm gap between what you say you support and what you [haven't] said you'd do to offer support.

    Hell, I have seen people stop going to veterinarians because they removed skin tags off their dogs.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 12th, 2013 at 10:37 AM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  16. #116
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post

    Corny has sided with Snowden. I asked what he's done to support Snowden, besides offer his best wishes and, well, um, we're still waiting for a response.
    What would you suggest apart from words that offer moral support Corny (and I for that matter) should do?

    That you support imprisoning Snowden it would be sensible to ask you what you are doing to expedite the incarceration of Snowden?

  17. #117
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Corny has sided with Snowden. I asked what he's done to support Snowden, besides offer his best wishes and, well, um, we're still waiting for a response.

    Some guy, you don't even know, who you said you support, risks imprisonment for "doing the right things," and you can't even say what [token] actions you'd be willing to take to show solidarity with this "whistle-blower"?

    There's a big enthusiasm gap between what you say you support and what you [haven't] said you'd do to offer support.

    Hell, I have seen people stop going to veterinarians because they removed skin tags off their dogs.
    When the time comes I will financially support his legal defense. Right now I see no credible recipient of that commitment. I see no benefit from gratuitous gestures, such as boycotting Google would be, even if you could do it.

  18. #118
    JUB Addict Lostlover's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    What would you suggest apart from words that offer moral support Corny (and I for that matter) should do?

    That you support imprisoning Snowden it would be sensible to ask you what you are doing to expedite the incarceration of Snowden?
    Well, if I knew Snowden's location, was in Asia, and had a pair of handcuffs handy, I guess I could attempt a Citizen's Arrest. Since Hong Kong is a friendly, pro-American territory, I am confident in the US-HK extradition treaty being sufficient in getting Snowden back to his home country.

    He's going to have many years to think about what he's done. He's also going to hopefully think of all the "supporters" he has that offered him their well wishes, like Corny, while using Google, Twitter, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo! for EVERYTHING in their lives.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 12th, 2013 at 10:58 AM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  19. #119
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Well, if I knew Snowden's location, was in Asia, and had a pair of handcuffs handy, I guess I could attempt a Citizen's Arrest. Since Hong Kong is a friendly, pro-American territory, I am confident in the US-HK extradition treaty to be sufficient in getting him back to his home country.

    He's going to have many years to think about what he's done. He's also going to hopefully think of all the "supporters" he has that offered him their well wishes, like Corny, while using Google, Twitter, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo! for EVERYTHING in their lives.
    Good intentions are fine but they amount to words only.

    When you finally get round to cuffing Snowden drop us a line.

  20. #120
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    He's going to have many years to think about what he's done. He's also going to hopefully think of all the "supporters" he has that offered him their well wishes, like Corny, while using Google, Twitter, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo! for EVERYTHING in their lives.
    The CEO of Google has publicly stated that his company was unaware that the NSA were actively snooping on Americans and has written to the NSA requesting transparency in any future request for cooperation. I'm prepared to accept at face value that the Internet giants would not have placed their relationships with their customers at risk by knowingly permitting the NSA to monitor the communications of Americans with a very wide net.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...585.html?hp=l3

  21. #121
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Care to explain me how I would support the guy buy stopping to use all those companies that you listed?

    Apart from that, it seems that you believe to know more about my life than you do. From those companies, I use the services of one. And that only because it's mandatory for my work.

    But again, this is not helping the guy at all. This is not going to show the NSA anything. And again, I'm not talking about the NSA here, nor about your law-abiding government. Maybe you really should read my posts again
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  22. #122

    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Just two quick points: (1) It would be useful for all here to read the recent op-ed commentary of David Brooks in the New York Times.
    (2) Someone in this thread asserted that Fox "(Faux" news was painting Snowden as a great hero. To the contrary, he is being described by commentators as a traitor. Sincere, but treasones. It might be useful to watch what is actually being said before making "Faux" criticisms.

  23. #123
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post


    Weird...


    This is the place where the unworkable idealism meets reality on these discussion forums.... lol
    Talk about a loaded poll. It's a great example of "the question is wrong".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #124
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Why don't you brush up on your reading comprehension skills...

    You sure as hell haven't made a peep about Google and other American technology companies assisting the NSA...

    That's why I asked you why you haven't. I feel that if you support what Snowden has done, which you've said you do, you can easily abstain from doing business with the companies that Snowden felt stole Americans' information.

    You should be willing to do something...anything...besides talking about it.

    On a side note: If you've gone back to using Google, Microsoft Office or called using an iPhone, then I guess you're just talk. Snowden is looking at many years in jail, and a supporter all the way from Germany, can't even abstain from using a product of a company Snowden was targeting. ***shakes head***

    What good are you to him, and his "cause," if you can only offer words? (Not a rhetorical question. I'm serious.)
    Could you stop whining about COrny having the conversation he wants and not changing it to the one you want?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #125
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    What would you suggest apart from words that offer moral support Corny (and I for that matter) should do?

    That you support imprisoning Snowden it would be sensible to ask you what you are doing to expedite the incarceration of Snowden?
    That's a good question. We US citizens can sign the petition I linked above, but others can't do much except perhaps demand that their governments rebuke the US for trying to become the world's god-government, knowing everything about everyone.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #126
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by big_guy View Post
    Just two quick points: (1) It would be useful for all here to read the recent op-ed commentary of David Brooks in the New York Times.
    (2) Someone in this thread asserted that Fox "(Faux" news was painting Snowden as a great hero. To the contrary, he is being described by commentators as a traitor. Sincere, but treasones. It might be useful to watch what is actually being said before making "Faux" criticisms.
    I read it -- here's the link, for others:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/op...aker.html?_r=0


    And I call him a demagogue on the issue, because he comes down to this:

    Is the information so grave that it’s worth betraying an oath, circumventing the established decision-making procedures, unilaterally exposing secrets that can never be reclassified?
    What secrets that "can't be reclassified" did he expose? I've seen numerous analyses saying he didn't reveal anything classified, so there's really no basis for action against him except that he's embarrassed people by revealing their underhanded actions and their disdain for human liberty and privacy.

    The only real item of substance he told us is that the government isn't just listening, it's recording everything and will never throw it away. Given that there's no authority anywhere in the Constitution for such a thing, he should be considered a patriot for his action.

    If Obama had a pair, Snowden would get the next Presidential Medal of Freedom.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #127
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What secrets that "can't be reclassified" did he expose? I've seen numerous analyses saying he didn't reveal anything classified, so there's really no basis for action against him except that he's embarrassed people by revealing their underhanded actions and their disdain for human liberty and privacy.

    The only real item of substance he told us is that the government isn't just listening, it's recording everything and will never throw it away. Given that there's no authority anywhere in the Constitution for such a thing, he should be considered a patriot for his action.

    If Obama had a pair, Snowden would get the next Presidential Medal of Freedom.
    Did you not see any of the material that he gave to the Guardian that they reprinted? The material is CLEARLY classified. This guy is a low-life scumbag who broke the law (consequently, the only actual person to have broken the law in this whole matter) in the pursuit of a selfish agenda. He made a commitment to guard secrets he was given access to and he is not the arbiter of what is classified and what isn't. There are/were numerous channels for him to go through to protest actions he finds illegal or improper. He chose the path that was illegal and, either directly or indirectly, damaged capabilities that not only fight terrorism but also deter our foreign adversaries. And like I've said before, if you review any of the information that was released by the Guardian, there is no evidence of the government illegally targeting (monitoring, collecting, etc.) against ANY Americans. The only thing that comes close to that is the Verizon warrant which is a) legal collection since a court did grant the warrant and b) legal collection in that the Supreme Court has already previously ruled that metadata (phone numbers, call duration, etc.) is not data that has any reasonable expectation of privacy since it is shared with a third party in a transaction.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    When the time comes I will financially support his legal defense. Right now I see no credible recipient of that commitment. I see no benefit from gratuitous gestures, such as boycotting Google would be, even if you could do it.
    So...your answer is to continue using Google, and to have Google send data to the government about your internet usage, right after you said you support a guy who leaked information about Google sharing this data in order to prevent it from happening in the future?

    Isn't that not a textbook circular argument?
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Good intentions are fine but they amount to words only.

    When you finally get round to cuffing Snowden drop us a line.
    I was being facetious in the first paragraph. Maybe I should have used this smiley -->
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    So...your answer is to continue using Google, and to have Google send data to the government about your internet usage, right after you said you support a guy who leaked information about Google sharing this data in order to prevent it from happening in the future?

    Isn't that not a textbook circular argument?
    I will say this right now. Might as well accept it. Most Americans will act outraged because they weren't informed about everything the government is doing, but when they do find out, they won't do anything about it. It does nothing more than satisfy the curiosity they have about the unknown. This is why things are classified. Keeping them secret serves a useful and productive purpose. Releasing them does absolutely nothing. What has changed since this guy released this information? Americans haven't stopped using Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc. but I bet you the adversary has.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Edward Snowden has told the South China Morning Post that the US has been hacking Hong Kong Chinese electronic activity since 2009.

    According to documents the Post says it possesses but hasn't yet verified, the use of PRISM to monitor Chinese electronic activity has been taking place since 2009.

    "We hack backbones—huge Internet routers, basically—that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one," Snowden said.
    http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden...151848288.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...radition-fight

    (*starts rereading James Clavell's Noble House*)

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    So...your answer is to continue using Google, and to have Google send data to the government about your internet usage, right after you said you support a guy who leaked information about Google sharing this data in order to prevent it from happening in the future?

    Isn't that not a textbook circular argument?
    May be. May not be. I can live with circumstances as I understand them. The only one I need to justify my actions to is myself.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Care to explain me how I would support the guy buy stopping to use all those companies that you listed?

    Apart from that, it seems that you believe to know more about my life than you do. From those companies, I use the services of one. And that only because it's mandatory for my work.

    But again, this is not helping the guy at all. This is not going to show the NSA anything. And again, I'm not talking about the NSA here, nor about your law-abiding government. Maybe you really should read my posts again
    No. No.

    You're not getting it.

    Snowden let America know that the government was being assisted by these tech companies in order to get our phone and e-mail logs of our activity online. These tech companies are co-conspirators (or accomplices) with the government. You can't, as you've done, hail Snowden as a hero and let these tech companies off the hook. It's lighting both ends of the stick. It's duplicitous. It's hypocrisy to hold these two, opposing beliefs at the same damn time: Snowden a hero and continue using Google as your search engine (for example).

    No, I'm not presuming to know you personally. I'd imagine you'd use at least one of those companies in your life however. Is that too much of a stretch?

    So, why are you continuing to use one of these companies' services? That company is just as "guilty" as NSA in all of this.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    May be. May not be. I can live with circumstances as I understand them. The only one I need to justify my actions to is myself.
    Thank you for your honesty and I mean it.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    the government was being assisted by these tech companies in order to get our phone and e-mail logs of our activity online. These tech companies are co-conspirators (or accomplices) with the government.
    Does it matter that these co-conspirators (tech companies) were acting under federal court order to provide data to the NSA?

  36. #136

    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I will say this right now. Might as well accept it. Most Americans will act outraged because they weren't informed about everything the government is doing, but when they do find out, they won't do anything about it. It does nothing more than satisfy the curiosity they have about the unknown. This is why things are classified. Keeping them secret serves a useful and productive purpose. Releasing them does absolutely nothing. What has changed since this guy released this information? Americans haven't stopped using Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc. but I bet you the adversary has.
    Makes you ask the question .... who do they want to spy on? Targeting spying on enemies is ok with me -- but spying on every American citizen --- why?

    It makes you ask another question -- does Obama see everyday Americans as the enemy?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Talk about a loaded poll. It's a great example of "the question is wrong".
    So what question should be asked? Are you implying people don't know what they are talking about? I can buy that logic. but do so with a ton of skepticism... it is wall to wall everywhere.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Makes you ask the question .... who do they want to spy on? Targeting spying on enemies is ok with me -- but spying on every American citizen --- why?

    It makes you ask another question -- does Obama see everyday Americans as the enemy?
    You mean with his use of the prgram started by Bush and endorsed by both parties senior leadership... hell defended by them... so you are saying Obama, Bush, McCain, Feinstein, Graham, and a slew of others are all viewing america as the enemy... or what are you saying besides..

    OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Does it matter that these co-conspirators (tech companies) were acting under federal court order to provide data to the NSA?
    Does it matter whether the companies were acting under federal court orders or not if their users' data are still being passed on to the NSA?

    Of course it doesn't matter. The result is the same.

    Google, Yahoo! and Bing aren't the only search engines out there.

    Basically, what you have here is a bunch of people that want to bitch and moan without lifting a finger--almost literally--by putting in a few extra keystrokes to find a non-compliant search engine that didn't report their activities to the NSA.

    Laziness isn't an excuse for being an armchair critic.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 12th, 2013 at 06:00 PM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  40. #140

    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You mean with his use of the prgram started by Bush and endorsed by both parties senior leadership... hell defended by them... so you are saying Obama, Bush, McCain, Feinstein, Graham, and a slew of others are all viewing america as the enemy... or what are you saying besides..

    OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA
    He's the head guy, the supposed leader, the big fish ... but so far he's the "dumb one" who's not talking.

    This version of spying is bigger, grander, more expansive than anything Bush had in mind.

    Isn't it time to let Obama take a little responsibility?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    Laziness isn't an excuse for being an armchair critic.
    So people concerned about global climate change should stop using gasoline, tires, natural gas, home heating oil, all forms of plastic, candles, and of course any road that is surfaced with asphalt?



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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    all the "supporters" he has that offered him their well wishes, like [INSERT NEARLY ANY SUPPORTER'S NAME HERE], while using Google, Twitter, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo! for EVERYTHING in their lives.
    I actually don't think Twitter is on the list, but that Facebook is. I'm not sure I remember this correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    So, why are you continuing to use one of these companies' services? That company is just as "guilty" as NSA in all of this.
    It would be rather difficult, if not impossible, to refuse ever to use any company who supplied information, whether willingly or forced via court order. I think that we are only seeing the "short list" - mentioning only the companies at the top of the food chain. Who's to say that if we instead used a Trac-Fone as our only phone carrier, and used Dogpile as our chosen search engine, and used American Express instead of Master Card [are they on the list?], that we could avoid the surveillance and storage of logs and all content?

    How many ISP's may be part of the massive dragnet? I have a discount card which I use at Kroger supermarkets (and, which also covers a number of smaller independents and regional chains) - is THAT information being stored? Does anybody know?

    And, as above, I think that Twitter was conspicuously absent from the list we commonly see, but I don't trust that AT ALL.

    I'm not convinced that it is possible to keep oneself "off the grid" of surveillance unless one lives their life as though it's still 1910.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    It makes you ask another question -- does Obama see everyday Americans as the enemy?
    Obama...merely another cog in a continuing series. When a government has become officiall9y fascist, the "People" are ALWAYS the enemy, and Partisan labels are little more than window dressing.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
    "But, hey, who cares about women and their rights when the religious liberty of a nationwide chain of arts and crafts stores is at stake?" - Daily Kos, 30 June 2014
    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I have a discount card which I use at Kroger supermarkets (and, which also covers a number of smaller independents and regional chains) - is THAT information being stored? Does anybody know?
    Don't know if Kroger's information is routinely being monitored by the NSA; but it is, of course, available to them by subpoena (by the FISA court or any other court).

    When I worked for the coroner's office, we once identified a dead body by the Kroger card on his key ring.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    So people concerned about global climate change should stop using gasoline, tires, natural gas, home heating oil, all forms of plastic, candles, and of course any road that is surfaced with asphalt?


    No. People concerned with global warming can do something. Corny, admittedly, hasn't done squat besides talk.

    It takes a few keystrokes to find a non-Google, non-Bing, and non-Yahoo! search engine. Pressing a few more keys on the keyboard is even too much for these armchair critics.

    It's called being sincere. And, usually, sincere people match their words with their actions.

    And, by the way, that's good of you to ignore the rest of the post and do exactly what I did when Corny said I was making "ad hominem attacks" in my talks with Kallopsis. I wonder what he thinks of you doing the same thing. Splitting hairs between whether or not Google supplying the government with user data is court ordered or not is pussy bullshit that one uses to weasel out of talking the talk and walking the walk because the result is still the same: the government still gets user data with or without that supposed court order.
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 12th, 2013 at 07:28 PM.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Edward Snowden has told the South China Morning Post that the US has been hacking Hong Kong Chinese electronic activity since 2009.



    http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden...151848288.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...radition-fight

    (*starts rereading James Clavell's Noble House*)
    So now that he's sharing his information with China, he's involved in espionage. This guy is a traitor plain and simple. Motivation doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Makes you ask the question .... who do they want to spy on? Targeting spying on enemies is ok with me -- but spying on every American citizen --- why?

    It makes you ask another question -- does Obama see everyday Americans as the enemy?
    Again, where is any evidence at all that anyone is spying on Americans? Any evidence. Any at all. You're making an assumption that just because they have enlisted the assistance of American companies that they're spying on Americans.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlover View Post
    So...your answer is to continue using Google, and to have Google send data to the government about your internet usage, right after you said you support a guy who leaked information about Google sharing this data in order to prevent it from happening in the future?

    Isn't that not a textbook circular argument?
    I reject your continued attempt to highjack the thread, but I'm going to answer this idiocy because of the degree of ignorance it involves.

    It's almost impossible to visit a web page without Google knowing it and recording that information, so it doesn't matter if someone uses google or not. The only way to not let Google know what you're doing is to stop using the internet.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    As I said, live like it's 1910.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
    "But, hey, who cares about women and their rights when the religious liberty of a nationwide chain of arts and crafts stores is at stake?" - Daily Kos, 30 June 2014
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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Edward Snowden has told the South China Morning Post that the US has been hacking Hong Kong Chinese electronic activity since 2009.



    http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden...151848288.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...radition-fight

    (*starts rereading James Clavell's Noble House*)
    So he goes deeper in . . . .

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    So what question should be asked? Are you implying people don't know what they are talking about? I can buy that logic. but do so with a ton of skepticism... it is wall to wall everywhere.
    The actual options should be set out instead of a false dichotomy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

    Fake, phony outrage.

    The UK and Germany makes more requests for user information, proportionally, than the US. The UK has one-fifth of our population and half of our requests for information for online user activity. And, UK posters, your government helped the NSA spy on us. If this was a real news story, I guess I would shake my head, but I find it worth talking about only to point out the hypocrisies.



    Fake, phony outrage on a fake, phony issue and not a peep from these posters whose government willingly, in a clandestine fashion, assisted the NSA to spy on us. To top it off, most Americans don't care about this issue. I'd also say that some of the "supporters" here don't care either. They've yet to say what they've done, besides typing a good game, to support their "hero."

    It makes no sense to say you support someone who is against the government spying while giving more data to the government so they can continue to spy.

    Actions ain't matching the words. I smell bullshit.

    http://gizmodo.com/the-top-10-countr...pani-513056340
    Last edited by Lostlover; June 13th, 2013 at 09:08 AM.
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