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  1. #1
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Well, as I thought, our very own Quebec Separatists are mounting a court challenge to rescind the Royal Succession Act because it was done without their benighted permission.

    If they are successful, it would break Canada's alignment with the other Commonwealth Realms, where by long custom all countries must agree to any change to our shared monarchy.

    That would mean either the whole thing is scuppered as other countries are forced into reverse, or they'd keep their laws and Canada would be on the way to having its own King: if Will and Kate have a girl, then a boy, the girl will be the heiress apparent in the UK and other countries, her younger brother the heir apparent in Canada.

    I suppose the boy could abdicate in favour of his elder sister.
    Last edited by bankside; June 7th, 2013 at 05:52 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  2. #2

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    was thinking , Canada Australia New Zealand and the others with the UK monarchy as head of state : in all the Head of State is totally powerless and non-functional , totally symbolic , to replace the monarchy with an equal appointed presidency would not be the slightest real change beyond reprinting all the stationary and a few signs . That is all it could be . Not be the slightest real change .
    Last edited by csb999; June 7th, 2013 at 06:59 AM.

  3. #3
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by csb999 View Post
    That is all it could be . Not be the slightest real change
    That would make the change rather pointless then, wouldn't it.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  4. #4

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    I lived in Canada for 5 1/2 years and never could get the Canadian attachment to those parasites.

  5. #5

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Has the amendment to the Act of succession been ratified by all the Commonwealth countries to make it effective?

  6. #6

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaypiper View Post
    I lived in Canada for 5 1/2 years and never could get the Canadian attachment to those parasites.
    Parasites? If they spent as much on their vacations as Michelle, they would have been ousted long ago.

  7. #7
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaypiper View Post
    I lived in Canada for 5 1/2 years and never could get the Canadian attachment to those parasites.
    Well, it's the same as the British attachment to those parasites, and the New Zealander attachment to those parasites, and the Bahamian attachment….

    It's our history. It's - more than just harmless - it's a living cultural tradition. And it provides no resistance at all to democratic governance in any commonwealth realm.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  8. #8
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Isn't monarchy rather outdated (like, by about 200 years?).

    Why don't you guys just declare your independence from that stupidity, and get on with life?

    You could even issue currency that has famous Canadians on it, if you have any such people.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 7th, 2013 at 08:44 AM.

  9. #9

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Well, it's the same as the British attachment to those parasites, and the New Zealander attachment to those parasites, and the Bahamian attachment….

    It's our history. It's - more than just harmless - it's a living cultural tradition. And it provides no resistance at all to democratic governance in any commonwealth realm.
    That right there sounds totally like a method a worm attaches to an intestine...

    That being said I'm sorry you're being screwed over. Hope you guys win.

  10. #10

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    The British government is the most sucessful form of government in history, by far. There is hardly a government in the world that has not borrowed from it to some degree. Even communist countries pretend to be parliamentary democracies. "Prudence, indeed, would dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes." Declaration of Independence
    Canada's government, patterned after that of Britain's has been successful, and that should militate against unnecessary change.
    Last edited by Benvolio; June 7th, 2013 at 09:10 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Well, as I thought, our very own Quebec Separatists are mounting a court challenge to rescind the Royal Succession Act because it was done without their benighted permission.

    If they are successful, it would break Canada's alignment with the other Commonwealth Realms, where by long custom all countries must agree to any change to our shared monarchy.

    That would mean either the whole thing is scuppered as other countries are forced into reverse, or they'd keep their laws and Canada would be on the way to having its own King: if Will and Kate have a girl, then a boy, the girl will be the heiress apparent in the UK and other countries, her younger brother the heir apparent in Canada.

    I suppose the boy could abdicate in favour of his elder sister.
    If you went with Will and Kate's children as King or Queen, wouldn't you pass up the problem of getting Charles one day? Ewe!!
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  12. #12
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    I would just point out that as anachronistic as it is, the Commonwealth parliamentary system of governing seems to be working just fine...without the partisan paralysis that seems to have a death grip on the US. In fact, the Governor General as the Crown's representative is able to help defuse or avert crises such as Harper visited upon us in 2008 before they woke the fuck up and started to govern like they had to for the good of the whole country and not just for the fringe right.

  13. #13

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    In retrospect the Presidential system was a mistake which has failed in most countries--it often leads to dictatorship. In the US it makes possible the partisan split and gridlock of the Presidency and two houses of Congress. Worse, being elected Pres is so hard that the abilities to be elected are quite different than those to be a good President. Experience becomes a negative, as it provides the opposition with ammunition. It is harder to find past mistakes by someone who has done little.

  14. #14
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    How about when the reigning monarch dies or abdicates, the next five in line for the throne become candidates, and each Commonwealth country votes for which to make the next monarch (re-voting until there's a firm majority)?


    BTW, what would happen if the rest of Canada accepted the Succession Act while Quebec didn't?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #15
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Isn't monarchy rather outdated (like, by about 200 years?).
    I'll just point out that the office of US President, for example, is now over 200 years old. On the other hand, the office of General Secretary of the Politbureau was only established in the 1960's. Often, "new" does not mean "better."

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Why don't you guys just declare your independence from that stupidity, and get on with life?

    You could even issue currency that has famous Canadians on it, if you have any such people.
    There's nobody to declare independence from. That happened in 1982. The reason Canada has a Queen is because the federal government and the 10 provinces have agreed that it should be that way. No other country has a veto in that process.

    Oh, and our money does have Canadians on it - every denomination of banknote. Four Prime Ministers and the Queen, who is, of course, also a Canadian. http://www.bankofcanada.ca/banknotes...eries/polymer/
    McDonald, Laurier, McKenzie King, Borden & Liz II
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    That right there sounds totally like a method a worm attaches to an intestine...

    That being said I'm sorry you're being screwed over. Hope you guys win.
    Eww, and thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, what would happen if the rest of Canada accepted the Succession Act while Quebec didn't?
    Well this is a bit tricky. The law is now on the books. It required no provincial approval at all because it doesn't change the role or powers of the monarchy, particularly with respect to the provinces. The complaint before the courts disagrees with this view, and I hope it is dismissed. The Constitution Act 1867 requires provincial consent and concurrence for any change to the office of the Queen (Victoria at the time)

    41. An amendment to the Constitution of Canada in relation to the following matters may be made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada only where authorized by resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons and of the legislative assembly of each province:
    (a) the office of the Queen, the Governor General and the Lieutenant Governor of a province;
    This relates to the powers of the monarchy, and the Federal government's position would be that the order of succession isn't really a "power." Also it doesn't really affect the interests of the provinces. Thus, provincial consent is inapplicable.

    If the complaint is successful, the Court would recognise that provincial consent is required, and then all bets are off. The previous Succession Act would return. And it is unlikely that the separatists currently inhabiting the legislature in Quebec City would cooperate, if only for the reason of annoying the rest of Canada and promoting their marketing message that they "just aren't compatible" with the rest of us even when they need to invent a pretext to do so.

    That would mean that Canada's next ruler after William would be a king as long as Will and Kate manage to pump out a boy eventually. The rest of the Commonwealth would go, as has been decided, with the firstborn. Thus the monarchy could split if a girl is born first. Of course the rest of the Commonwealth could backtrack for the sake of unity.
    Last edited by bankside; June 7th, 2013 at 12:02 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  16. #16

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Parasites? If they spent as much on their vacations as Michelle, they would have been ousted long ago.
    You speak with such authority, you must actually know the figures. So, how much has Michelle spent on her vacations and how much has the royal family?

  17. #17

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    You could even issue currency that has famous Canadians on it, if you have any such people.
    I suggest Canada drop Betty from the currency and put Joni Mitchel, Neil Young and Leonard Cohen on it instead.
    Last edited by palemale; June 7th, 2013 at 12:37 PM.

  18. #18
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I'll just point out that the office of US President, for example, is now over 200 years old.
    The office of the presidency was established 200 years ago, not eliminated.


    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    There's nobody to declare independence from. That happened in 1982. The reason Canada has a Queen is because the federal government and the 10 provinces have agreed that it should be that way.
    In other words, you have voluntarily subjected yourself to another country's monarch.

    Isn't it time to declare your independence from this nonsense?

  19. #19
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I suggest Canada drop Betty from the currency and put Joni Mitchel, Neil Young and Leonard Cohen on it instead.
    That would be cool.

    Also, K. D. Lang, Rufus Wainwright, Wayne Gretsky, and Sidney Crosby.

  20. #20
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, you have voluntarily subjected yourself to another country's monarch.
    No, they've voluntarily retained their own monarch.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #21
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The office of the presidency was established 200 years ago, not eliminated.



    Isn't it time to declare your independence from this nonsense?

    In other words, you have voluntarily subjected yourself to another country's monarch.

    I don't think that you necessarily understand the constitutional role of the Crown in government and law. Canada does have its own Constitution and Bill of Rights you know. And you do know that the monarchy does not make laws or actually govern or even take any portion of taxes don't you?

  22. #22

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    The whole idea of a monarchy is anachronistic and ridiculous, as is religion.

  23. #23
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The whole idea of a monarchy is anachronistic and ridiculous, as is religion.
    Calling something anachronistic is just a dodge for saying you don't like it. Why not call flags anachronistic? How about national anthems? What about national borders?

    I'd love to have a monarchy, if it had one piece of authority: any time 20% of the people regarded any piece of legislation as violating their rights, the monarch could veto it -- even if it had been around for a long time... heck, then the king could say, "It's an anachronism".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #24
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Calling something anachronistic is just a dodge for saying you don't like it. Why not call flags anachronistic? How about national anthems? What about national borders?

    I'd love to have a monarchy, if it had one piece of authority: any time 20% of the people regarded any piece of legislation as violating their rights, the monarch could veto it -- even if it had been around for a long time... heck, then the king could say, "It's an anachronism".
    That is not so far different from reality. In the late autumn of 2008, after a series of Parliamentary elections where no party was able to command an absolute majority in Parliament, the current Prime Minister acted rashly in his legislative proposals immediately following an election.

    As he did not have an absolute majority, it was within the right of other parliamentarians not only to reject his legislative agenda, but to propose an alternate for the office of Prime Minister that would have seen his government out and a coalition brought in. The Prime Minister used parliamentary procedure to prevent a vote from occurring on this matter. The Opposition, being denied a voice in the House of Commons, took the matter to the Crown for resolution.

    On behalf of the Queen, the Governor General summoned the Prime Minister to explain himself. In the end, his explanation was - barely - satisfactory. In a situation like that, the Crown would make the least disruptive exercise of its powers. But the Governor General really did have the power to fire him, and call on another would-be Prime Minister from the ranks of the Opposition to test his support in the House of Commons, or to dissolve Parliament and call fresh elections.

    Any of those options could be imposed by the Crown to guarantee democratic rule when the government of the day takes its mandate beyond its votes. The least intrusive option was to allow the Prime Minister a brief recess to recalibrate his legislative program, and return to face the Commons in the new year. By then the PM had backed down from some of the more ridiculous legislative initiatives, and the Opposition had lost its nerve, which means the Governor General's decision was probably correct. Had they maintained their coalition, Harper would have been out, and the Governor General would have either been swearing in a new PM or calling an election. That they did not was a sign that the PM truly did have the (limited) mandate of the House.

    I was going to say it was the first time in the lifetime of the Queen that such a direct intervention would have been considered by the crown. In fact something comparable did happen once before, when she was only a few months old. In 1926. It's hard to call that meddling in the affairs of a democracy. Indeed this rarely-used power is a guarantor of democracy, intended to stabilise it, not usurp it, intended to let the powerful govern, but to place limits on their power by guaranteeing review by the opposition, and that the longer-term interests of Canadians are considered.
    Last edited by bankside; June 7th, 2013 at 05:40 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  25. #25

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    The real question is whether an elected President, performing the constitutional function of the monarch, would be superior. The easy answer is not as long as a large majority prefer to retain the monarchy. An important part of the function of the Chief of State is to unify the country by their loyalty to him/ her. "Prudence, indeed, would dictate that governments of long standing should not be changed for light and transient causes." The mere whim of anachronism is a light cause.

  26. #26
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    That is not so far different from reality. In the late autumn of 2008, after a series of Parliamentary elections where no party was able to command an absolute majority in Parliament, the current Prime Minister acted rashly in his legislative proposals immediately following an election.

    As he did not have an absolute majority, it was within the right of other parliamentarians not only to reject his legislative agenda, but to propose an alternate for the office of Prime Minister that would have seen his government out and a coalition brought in. The Prime Minister used parliamentary procedure to prevent a vote from occurring on this matter. The Opposition, being denied a voice in the House of Commons, took the matter to the Crown for resolution.

    On behalf of the Queen, the Governor General summoned the Prime Minister to explain himself. In the end, his explanation was - barely - satisfactory. In a situation like that, the Crown would make the least disruptive exercise of its powers. But the Governor General really did have the power to fire him, and call on another would-be Prime Minister from the ranks of the Opposition to test his support in the House of Commons, or to dissolve Parliament and call fresh elections.

    Any of those options could be imposed by the Crown to guarantee democratic rule when the government of the day takes its mandate beyond its votes. The least intrusive option was to allow the Prime Minister a brief recess to recalibrate his legislative program, and return to face the Commons in the new year. By then the PM had backed down from some of the more ridiculous legislative initiatives, and the Opposition had lost its nerve, which means the Governor General's decision was probably correct. Had they maintained their coalition, Harper would have been out, and the Governor General would have either been swearing in a new PM or calling an election. That they did not was a sign that the PM truly did have the (limited) mandate of the House.

    I was going to say it was the first time in the lifetime of the Queen that such a direct intervention would have been considered by the crown. In fact something comparable did happen once before, when she was only a few months old. In 1926. It's hard to call that meddling in the affairs of a democracy. Indeed this rarely-used power is a guarantor of democracy, intended to stabilise it, not usurp it, intended to let the powerful govern, but to place limits on their power by guaranteeing review by the opposition, and that the longer-term interests of Canadians are considered.
    I remember that being discussed, and wishing that the PM would get ditched just to remind everyone of the process.

    But what I had in mind when I typed that was the current mess in the U.S. over the steady chipping away of rights as in DNA collection from anyone the police get sent after. In my idea of a libertarian monarchy, the monarch would look at the polls, see that a substantial number of citizens believe it to be a violation of their rights, and summarily decree that those citizens were correct. Such a decree in favor of individual rights would trump any legislative or judicial decisions.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #27
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    I call bullshit ON KULI!!! If in the US a hereditary monarch or representative thereof had the legal authority to replace an elected chief exec, you would be the first one in the protest line.

    And in your hypo above - just whose polls would the Queen be looking at?


    Bankside, Monarchy may be one of your traditions, but then one of ours is calling on people to abandon the British Crown. (grin)
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  28. #28
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I call bullshit ON KULI!!! If in the US a hereditary monarch or representative thereof had the legal authority to replace an elected chief exec, you would be the first one in the protest line.

    And in your hypo above - just whose polls would the Queen be looking at?


    Bankside, Monarchy may be one of your traditions, but then one of ours is calling on people to abandon the British Crown. (grin)
    Unless you are Washington DC, when you hand a petition to the British Embassy asking to be allowed back...

    In all seriousness no-one has really had any beef with the Monarch for a long time. Northern Europe has developed a tradition of constitutional monarchy over a century, unlike southern Europe where deals were made with fascist or military dictators (Italy and Greece). There are very rare occasions where the Monarch (and by extension Governor Generals) does have a political role, the last in Britain was probably in 1962 but that was more because of the Conservative Party's leadership problems than some sort of constitutional crisis. You must also remember that some Commonwealth countries still have the UK Supreme Court as their own final court of appeal, as a matter of choice not imposition. We have been very fortunate in having two monarchs in succession whose commitment to constitutional behaviour has cemented the minimal political role while retaining public trust. This is why people get very nervous about Prince Charles intervening in conservation issues or architecture, and hope that this will become smothered by his constitutional responsibilities when Brenda finally kicks the bucket...

    M
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  29. #29

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    And remember, when the President and First Lady have tea at the Palace, it is they who are nervous. She is not the one worried whether she will hold her tea cup the correct way.
    The entire world watches their weddings and funerals on TV, especially the Americans. The point is that the monarchy gives Britain and the Commonwealth countries a prestige which is worth keeping. If they had an elected President to perform that function, who would care?
    Last edited by Benvolio; June 9th, 2013 at 04:05 AM.

  30. #30
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    It is also worth noting that it is generally accepted that the most democratic nations on this planet are also constitutional monarchies such as The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxembourg, Spain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom.

  31. #31
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    And remember, when the President and First Lady have tea at the Palace, it is they who are nervous. She is not the one worried whether she will hold her tea cup the correct way.
    The entire world watches their weddings and funerals on TV, especially the Americans. The point is that the monarchy gives Britain and the Commonwealth countries a prestige which is worth keeping. If they had an elected President to perform that function, who would care?
    The Queen is just as nervous in Washington or Beijing, knowing that there is a high likelihood of a Don Imus reference joke from Prince Philip on arriving at the White House, or that upon arriving at Tiananmen Square, he'll remark on the largest take-away he's ever seen...
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  32. #32
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    IMO. a monarch as head of state is better than an elected president. There were no remarks about people who disagreed with Blair going along with Bush's illegal war being traitors or unpatriotic, as there were in this country. The Brits can disagree with their political leaders & not be seen as unpatriotic

  33. #33

    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestatnj View Post
    IMO. a monarch as head of state is better than an elected president. There were no remarks about people who disagreed with Blair going along with Bush's illegal war being traitors or unpatriotic, as there were in this country. The Brits can disagree with their political leaders & not be seen as unpatriotic
    This was mostly a myth. Critics accused others of calling them unpatriotic, as a way of saying the supporters were bad people on more than one level. It is similar to the current claim that anyone who disagrees with Obama is racist.

  34. #34
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Separatists monkey with the throne.

    Of Course, I keep reading this a 'Separatist Monkeys with the Throne'.




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