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Thread: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

      
   
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, how about reading the supporting material instead of quoting an opinionated article. If you want to know why they keep so much secret, look how people react when they find out information they can't understand. They take no time to research, trust blindly in those that tell them what they want to hear, and make no effort to find out the ACTUAL truth for themselves. Since we're living in your fantasy world, I'd rather have the government spying on my every move with a 1% chance of stopping a terrorist attack or preventing some state actor from stealing secrets and sabotaging various aspects of our country than having you sitting behind your keyboard, armed with the knowledge of everything the government does, doing nothing but complaining about whatever the paranoid delusion of the day is. At least in the first scenario we have a 1% chance of some sort of success.
    I've read dozens of pages of "supporting material". Apparently, though, you don't read anything at all, but just insist that the government is made of saints who despite the law allowing them to don't do anything to bother the privacy of Americans.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I've read dozens of pages of "supporting material". Apparently, though, you don't read anything at all, but just insist that the government is made of saints who despite the law allowing them to don't do anything to bother the privacy of Americans.
    Well said.

    Every person working in government service always obeys the law and never, never transgresses on the rights of others.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I've read dozens of pages of "supporting material". Apparently, though, you don't read anything at all, but just insist that the government is made of saints who despite the law allowing them to don't do anything to bother the privacy of Americans.
    Well you've obviously not read the actual documents provided because if you had, you'd see that the law does not allow people in the government to just go snooping willy nilly through your stuff. In fact, if you actually read the documents, you'll find the only way they can get anything from you to begin with is if they are targeting someone overseas and you are communicating with that target (this is what inadvertent means since you like to quote it a lot). At that point, the law requires them to destroy that information unless there is indication of an immediate threat of harm, evidence of a crime that has been or is about to be committed, or that it contains foreign intelligence. Honestly, if you're communicating with terrorists, I want the government to know about it. However, the doesn't means they're spying on you. They're spying on someone else and your communication with that person is going to get pulled in with everything else they're collecting.

    The Fourth Amendment was designed to protect citizens in their day-to-day lives, not to shield them from the government in wrongdoing. If you're communicating with a target of the NSA outside of the country, then a) you are not the one being spied on and b) unless there is evidence of wrongdoing, then that communication is removed from the collection. You can argue all day that government workers can abuse this, but this can happen with a warrant as well and you have no evidence at all of this happening and it's nothing but conjecture. In fact, the only employee so far to be shown to have broken the law is Edward Snowden.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Well said.

    Every person working in government service always obeys the law and never, never transgresses on the rights of others.
    Do you have any evidence to prove that they have? People who work for the government are American citizens and are innocent until proven guilty. So if you have evidence that government employees are interfering with your an American's rights, then please present it so they can be held legally accountable. If not, I'd watch where you throw around snarky allegations.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's interesting. More and more it seems that not only is the NSA using terminology in unique ways in order to hide what it's doing, but what they're really doing is being inflated because media people don't understand technical terms. So the obfuscation feeds off itself, ignorance supplementing deception.

    Maybe somewhere in the middle is the truth -- probably that the NSA is spying on Americans every time they get "inadvertent" data that requires no warrant, but aren't going to the effort of listening to all of us.
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, how about reading the supporting material instead of quoting an opinionated article. If you want to know why they keep so much secret, look how people react when they find out information they can't understand. They take no time to research, trust blindly in those that tell them what they want to hear, and make no effort to find out the ACTUAL truth for themselves. Since we're living in your fantasy world, I'd rather have the government spying on my every move with a 1% chance of stopping a terrorist attack or preventing some state actor from stealing secrets and sabotaging various aspects of our country than having you sitting behind your keyboard, armed with the knowledge of everything the government does, doing nothing but complaining about whatever the paranoid delusion of the day is. At least in the first scenario we have a 1% chance of some sort of success.
    Most of that has to do with journalist seeking ratings and ad clicks on their websites... it is about money and revenge because this administration is using records of journalist to ferret out fucking spies, we call them leakers but they are spies attempting to change the political landscape with leaks.

    So Like I was saying from the beginning, journalist are pissed and are making this a story. It passes muster in courts, in congress.... in congress who cant even pass a farm bill, yet this gets a nod from both sides of the aisle, and it passes muster in front a President who swore up and down that it was illegal and rights were violated.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

    From the Memorandum:

    Section 3-Acquisition and Processing-General
    ....
    (b) Personnel will exercise reasonable judgment in determining whether information acquired must be minimized and will destroy inadvertently acquired communication ... at the earliest practicable point ... at which such communication can be identified either: ... or, as not containing evidence of a crime ....

    Section 5-Domestic Communications
    A communication identified as a domestic communication will be promptly destroyed ... unless ...
    (2) the communication ... is reasonably believed to contain evidence of a crime that has been, is being, or is about to be committed. Such communication may be disseminated ....[e.s.]
    I do not see the constitutional safeguards that would otherwise accompany law enforcement's acquisition of evidence of criminal activity.

    Inadvertent invasion of privacy? Or, are communications now included in the "open view" exception?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Do you have any evidence to prove that they have? People who work for the government are American citizens and are innocent until proven guilty. So if you have evidence that government employees are interfering with your an American's rights, then please present it so they can be held legally accountable. If not, I'd watch where you throw around snarky allegations.

    With all that expensive equipment do you seriously believe that United States citizens are not targeted by NSA surveillance?

    Do you seriously believe that United States citizens do not engage in terrorist activities in the United States cue Timothy McVeigh?

    Do you seriously believe that the NSA would not conduct surveillance on a United States citizen whom they suspected of planning a terrorist operation in the United States.

    Do you seriously believe that the NSA would provide me with proof that they are monitoring the telephone calls and Internet communications of United States citizens and foreigners whom they suspect are planning a terrorist operation?

    The fact that for many years the NSA has been collecting details of every telephone call placed in the United States without a warrant, President Obama tells us, is no reason for Americans to be concerned if you have nothing to hide for nobody is listening to your telephone calls. Really?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post

    The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.
    It's called stonewalling. Keep denying the obvious and sufficient people will believe you.

    It's standard procedure possibly cultivated by the very organisations under critique on this thread.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Britain's GCHQ has its own internet surveillance programs, and in cases has partnered with NSA.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ju...unications-nsa

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Britain's GCHQ has its own internet surveillance programs, and in cases has partnered with NSA.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ju...unications-nsa
    Nothing new here. The United Kingdom does not pretend to be whiter than white.

    I doubt whether there are any British citizens who do not believe that their security services do not use every tool available to them to monitor the communications of and hunt down suspected terrorists British and foreign.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The Fourth Amendment was designed to protect citizens in their day-to-day lives, not to shield them from the government in wrongdoing.
    Ah, the mantra of the advocate of the police state!

    Do you really fail to see that you're arguing for the government to be as intrusive as it wants?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?
    The official response of the allies of the United States will more often or not offer support for such surveillance.

    In private leaders such as Chancellor Merkel will express some misgivings.

    Angela Merkel grew up in a police state - East Germany or the GDR - and is well aware that state snooping can destroy the soul of a nation especially when those who pretend to protect citizens from the enemies of the state become the enemy of the very freedoms they pretend to defend.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?
    If ever caught up in the NSA/FBI maw - even if it's for a crime that may be committed and not involving national security - you can complain to the court. Oh, silly me, the proceedings will be secret.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

    From the Memorandum:

    I do not see the constitutional safeguards that would otherwise accompany law enforcement's acquisition of evidence of criminal activity.

    Inadvertent invasion of privacy? Or, are communications now included in the "open view" exception?
    For the first point outlined, you need to post the ENTIRE portion you are referencing. Also, the first point actually points to the second point you made in terms of the ONLY circumstances under which evidence of a crime may be retained. Additionally, the second point you linked to references sections of the USC that you really need to read to find your Constitutional protections.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1806 and http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1825

    Additionally, the disposition of what is described above isn't specified. For instance, if they get evidence of a crime about to be committed, law enforcement is legally allowed to use that information to stop the crime. If evidence of an unrelated crime is discovered during a legal gathering of evidence for a different crime, that evidence is admissible in trial. These issues have been addressed before by the Supreme Court.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    With all that expensive equipment do you seriously believe that United States citizens are not targeted by NSA surveillance? What expensive equipment? And yes I do believe that.

    Do you seriously believe that United States citizens do not engage in terrorist activities in the United States cue Timothy McVeigh? I have no doubt that some US citizens can be terrorists. I also have no doubt the FBI closely monitors them pursuant to law. It seems to me the ones they've been catching have been convicted instead of their case being thrown out for illegal surveillance. Must be doing something right.

    Do you seriously believe that the NSA would not conduct surveillance on a United States citizen whom they suspected of planning a terrorist operation in the United States. I believe that they might but that they would get the warrant needed to do so. NSA has a mission they are required to fulfill. Arguing that the NSA shouldn't be illegally monitoring and that the NSA shouldn't be monitoring at all are two separate arguments. Which one are you making?

    Do you seriously believe that the NSA would provide me with proof that they are monitoring the telephone calls and Internet communications of United States citizens and foreigners whom they suspect are planning a terrorist operation? I would believe that someone like Edward Snowden, who goes to great lengths to sneak out lots of classified documents to support his beliefs, would at the very least provide SOME evidence (voice snippet, e-mail copy, Skype conversation, etc.) that backed up his claims of all of this spying on Americans. As it turns out, he didn't and neither did any of these other "former NSA workers" who claim various forms of spying on Americans. If you're going to take the time to meticulously gather and distribute these materials while making plans to run to other countries, surely you could download a file or two showing evidence that this collection is actually happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The fact that for many years the NSA has been collecting details of every telephone call placed in the United States without a warrant, President Obama tells us, is no reason for Americans to be concerned if you have nothing to hide for nobody is listening to your telephone calls. Really?
    Where did you get this information from? Was it from the leaked copy of the warrant to Verizon showing this? I'm not sure where you get the idea that they're collecting the metadata without a warrant, because the evidence presented to support this claim WAS THE WARRANT.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Nothing new here. The United Kingdom does not pretend to be whiter than white.

    I doubt whether there are any British citizens who do not believe that their security services do not use every tool available to them to monitor the communications of and hunt down suspected terrorists British and foreign.
    So it's ok in your eyes for the UK to do it but not the US? Your personal vendetta is showing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Ah, the mantra of the advocate of the police state!

    Do you really fail to see that you're arguing for the government to be as intrusive as it wants?
    No. What I'm seeing in a person like you who will whine and complain all day about how your rights are somehow being violated, without actually being able to prove it, yet will turn around next time some attack happens and wonder why the government wasn't doing enough. Part of understanding the Constitution is understanding what the writers were trying to achieve when writing the text. The Fourth Amendment was designed to allow law-abiding citizens to be safe in their person and property against UNREASONABLE government searches. The point of the amendment was not to allow those who wish to do us harm to be shielded from the government as soon as they step foot in the country. The Constitution also gave the power to the Supreme Court to be the ultimate arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. That power was then propagated down to lower courts via Congress. All 3 branches of government have determined that the activities that go on are Constitutional. No American citizen has shown any loss of rights or harm suffered by the program. The only person here who seems to be running contradictory to the Constitution right now is you claiming all of this is illegal and unconstitutional based on your personal belief.

    And no, I am not arguing the government can be intrusive as it wants. For instance, I'm not arguing that the government should be able to kick in anyone's door and randomly search for contraband. I'm not in favor of the government listening in on every domestic phone call (which someone has yet to prove.) However, I am arguing that if the government is monitoring terrorist Abu over in Pakistan and they find in their review of their material that you are calling him 3 times a day, then they should be able to monitor that communication, store it, and use to to prevent crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?
    Or maybe she is informed on how the program works and, like the Legislative, Executive, and Judiciary branches of our government along with the governments of other countries, see that it is actually not illegal and not spying on Americans. Maybe, just maybe, the leaders of these countries see the intelligence value of these programs and the good it does each of their respective countries and have decided that it is more valuable to keep these secret and use these to stop attacks rather than release all of the information to the public so they can feel safe that they're not being targeted and then do nothing else with the information. What have you done to look out for those to wish to do us harm today?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    For the first point outlined, you need to post the ENTIRE portion you are referencing. Also, the first point actually points to the second point you made in terms of the ONLY circumstances under which evidence of a crime may be retained. Additionally, the second point you linked to references sections of the USC that you really need to read to find your Constitutional protections.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1806 and http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1825

    Additionally, the disposition of what is described above isn't specified. For instance, if they get evidence of a crime about to be committed, law enforcement is legally allowed to use that information to stop the crime. If evidence of an unrelated crime is discovered during a legal gathering of evidence for a different crime, that evidence is admissible in trial. These issues have been addressed before by the Supreme Court.




    Where did you get this information from? Was it from the leaked copy of the warrant to Verizon showing this? I'm not sure where you get the idea that they're collecting the metadata without a warrant, because the evidence presented to support this claim WAS THE WARRANT.


    So it's ok in your eyes for the UK to do it but not the US? Your personal vendetta is showing.


    No. What I'm seeing in a person like you who will whine and complain all day about how your rights are somehow being violated, without actually being able to prove it, yet will turn around next time some attack happens and wonder why the government wasn't doing enough. Part of understanding the Constitution is understanding what the writers were trying to achieve when writing the text. The Fourth Amendment was designed to allow law-abiding citizens to be safe in their person and property against UNREASONABLE government searches. The point of the amendment was not to allow those who wish to do us harm to be shielded from the government as soon as they step foot in the country. The Constitution also gave the power to the Supreme Court to be the ultimate arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. That power was then propagated down to lower courts via Congress. All 3 branches of government have determined that the activities that go on are Constitutional. No American citizen has shown any loss of rights or harm suffered by the program. The only person here who seems to be running contradictory to the Constitution right now is you claiming all of this is illegal and unconstitutional based on your personal belief.

    And no, I am not arguing the government can be intrusive as it wants. For instance, I'm not arguing that the government should be able to kick in anyone's door and randomly search for contraband. I'm not in favor of the government listening in on every domestic phone call (which someone has yet to prove.) However, I am arguing that if the government is monitoring terrorist Abu over in Pakistan and they find in their review of their material that you are calling him 3 times a day, then they should be able to monitor that communication, store it, and use to to prevent crimes.


    Or maybe she is informed on how the program works and, like the Legislative, Executive, and Judiciary branches of our government along with the governments of other countries, see that it is actually not illegal and not spying on Americans. Maybe, just maybe, the leaders of these countries see the intelligence value of these programs and the good it does each of their respective countries and have decided that it is more valuable to keep these secret and use these to stop attacks rather than release all of the information to the public so they can feel safe that they're not being targeted and then do nothing else with the information. What have you done to look out for those to wish to do us harm today?
    Lots of may bes.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Lots of may bes.
    Good one! FYI, I see 3 maybes in the last paragraph where I was being semi-sarcastic.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007


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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Multiply that one misguided effort to promote justice through dubious means by just how immensely wide the scope and reach of our national surveillance state is.... while there are those who genuinely believe they are on the side of the good guys even using such disreputable methods, it destroys the essence of what we claim to be proud of as Americans.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    So misguided.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Multiply that one misguided effort to promote justice through dubious means by just how immensely wide the scope and reach of our national surveillance state is.... while there are those who genuinely believe they are on the side of the good guys even using such disreputable methods, it destroys the essence of what we claim to be proud of as Americans.
    Evidence?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    I am continually bemused by those asking for proof that NSA/FBI has targeted "US persons," or otherwise abused the programs.

    Were it not for Snowden the existence of these programs would not have gained currency. It is reluctantly revealed that these programs have been successful _____ (insert last number you've heard) times. We can hardly expect the failures or abuse of the programs to be revealed. Now we find that the NSA has been "least untruthful" (i.e., lied) to Congress. We are in a situation where Senators who wish to correct a "misleading" statement on the NSA website have to do so in a classified attachment to their letter. Proceedings supporting and challenging these programs are cloaked in national security secrecy, and those challenging the proceedings are required to prove the underlying orders are illegal - an interesting burden given they presumptively have been found lawful by the FISA Court.

    From this those concerned about these programs are expected to generate proof?

    Give me a break!

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I am continually bemused by those asking for proof that NSA/FBI has targeted "US persons," or otherwise abused the programs.

    Were it not for Snowden the existence of these programs would not have gained currency. It is reluctantly revealed that these programs have been successful _____ (insert last number you've heard) times. We can hardly expect the failures or abuse of the programs to be revealed. Now we find that the NSA has been "least untruthful" (i.e., lied) to Congress. We are in a situation where Senators who wish to correct a "misleading" statement on the NSA website have to do so in a classified attachment to their letter. Proceedings supporting and challenging these programs are cloaked in national security secrecy, and those challenging the proceedings are required to prove the underlying orders are illegal - an interesting burden given they presumptively have been found lawful by the FISA Court.

    From this those concerned about these programs are expected to generate proof?

    Give me a break!
    In what part did NSA lie? The collections on Americans? Please read again about the TRUTH being sought...

    What you are experiencing is confirmation bias... it is like a collection of tin foil hatters getting so close and in such number that they develop a spark of static electricity and demand it is proof of alien life.

    Please feel free to read again my previously linked material. The NSA did not admit any such thing as you all here suggest. It is merely confirmation bias on the part of the journalist looking for that popping headline.

    Should we have a conversation about what is acceptable and what is not for our intelligence agencies? Absolutely. But to suggest malfeasance because someone wants a hits story is ignorant.

    A Geek’s Guide to the NSA Scandal: What You May Not Know About Data Collection

    That and now the unsung hero of the information revolution is fleeing to communist strongman countries where freedom is not even an illusion? Fucking laughable. I wonder how he is bartering his way with those four laptops of stolen data.
    Last edited by JayHawk; June 25th, 2013 at 07:18 AM.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Misguided? No that would be you, Lostlover and Tigerfan here. Snowden may be clearly less than he seemed to present himself but you think our people are better? you're so cynical about everything else virtually, but here trust a vast, deeply hidden surveillance state structure? More like there are no angels in this battle, and our guys are closer to the devils we despise than we'd care to admit.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    @ JayHawk; Post #223 You are invited - after removing your feet from the apple pie in which they are so firmly planted - to counter-source my misgivings. I have sourced (throughout this Thread) all of my positions.

    In this discussion we must recall President Eisenhower (himself no slacker when it came to foreign intelligence; witness Project Homerun):

    .... The total influence (of the military-industrial complex) — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...strial_complex (emphasis in sourced document)

    We should harken to those words even if from a different time.

    The effective oversight of these NSA/FBI programs is belied by Maine Senator Susan Collins, who, if anyone was, was entitled to be "read in:"

    Collins, who served as the top-ranking Republican on the Homeland Security Committee last year and is a member of the intelligence committee this session, said she hadn't been briefed on the sweeping internet data collection program before The Guardian reported on it last week.

    Collins said she never had access to the "highly compartmentalized information," and dismissed President Obama's claim that members of Congress could have requested a briefing on the surveillance program. "How can you ask when you don't know the program exists?" Collins asked, as quoted by the Huffington Post.
    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...ver-briefed-on

    I have read the Geek's Guide. The author draws distinctions without difference to the issue at hand. And if he knows so much why isn't he in jail?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Two instances of NSA over-reach:

    The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, or FISC, ruled Wednesday (i.e., June 12, 2013) that it has no objection to the release of a 2011 opinion of the court, which found that some of the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs under the FISA Amendments Act, were unconstitutional.

    A 2011 FISC court ruling had concluded that some of the NSA’s surveillance programs had violated sections of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, a law aimed at protecting American citizens from surveillance programs targeted at foreigners.
    http://www.ibtimes.com/fisc-will-not...lance-1305023#

    DNI James Clapper's statements to Congress that NSA does "not wittingly" collect data on Americans. He knew that response to be false, and later stated it was the "least untruthful" way he could answer.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...veillance.html

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    @ JayHawk; Post #223 You are invited - after removing your feet from the apple pie in which they are so firmly planted - to counter-source my misgivings. I have sourced (throughout this Thread) all of my positions.

    In this discussion we must recall President Eisenhower (himself no slacker when it came to foreign intelligence; witness Project Homerun):



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...strial_complex (emphasis in sourced document)

    We should harken to those words even if from a different time.

    The effective oversight of these NSA/FBI programs is belied by Maine Senator Susan Collins, who, if anyone was, was entitled to be "read in:"



    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...ver-briefed-on

    I have read the Geek's Guide. The author draws distinctions without difference to the issue at hand. And if he knows so much why isn't he in jail?
    First, fuck Eisenhower, they had no clue what intelligence was in his day.

    Second, Ole boy isn't in jail because we aren't a tyrannical overbearing society; which is something folks would like desperately to believe so they can justify why so much sucks around them but there is no 'there' there. All the conspiracies are simply a society that has out grown god and is looking for new bogey men

    Finally, Collins was a HLS committee member last year which would not have been briefed and this year if she hasn't asked what her committee oversees that she was not privy to then how the fuck does she expect to do her job? The VERY first thing I ask for after walking behind the fifty five doors is "What don't I know about that I should to do this job..." If she is that incompetent then the state who voted for her deserves incompetence.
    Last edited by JayHawk; June 25th, 2013 at 05:18 PM.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Two instances of NSA over-reach:



    http://www.ibtimes.com/fisc-will-not...lance-1305023#

    DNI James Clapper's statements to Congress that NSA does "not wittingly" collect data on Americans. He knew that response to be false, and later stated it was the "least untruthful" way he could answer.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...veillance.html
    Hmmm weird... so you are saying the system that was setup to provide checks and balances was providing checks and balances.... fuckin weird shit.

    Next you will be telling this gravity thing is sticking around.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I am continually bemused by those asking for proof that NSA/FBI has targeted "US persons," or otherwise abused the programs.

    Were it not for Snowden the existence of these programs would not have gained currency. It is reluctantly revealed that these programs have been successful _____ (insert last number you've heard) times. We can hardly expect the failures or abuse of the programs to be revealed. Now we find that the NSA has been "least untruthful" (i.e., lied) to Congress. We are in a situation where Senators who wish to correct a "misleading" statement on the NSA website have to do so in a classified attachment to their letter. Proceedings supporting and challenging these programs are cloaked in national security secrecy, and those challenging the proceedings are required to prove the underlying orders are illegal - an interesting burden given they presumptively have been found lawful by the FISA Court.

    From this those concerned about these programs are expected to generate proof?

    Give me a break!
    First off, the existence of a program that has technical capability is no proof of how that capability is used. Snowden released (and the Guardian only printed a partial) PowerPoint of the PRISM program and a copy of a Verizon warrant that was legally issued by a court. What Snowden didn't provide was evidence of the government performing mass surveillance (or any surveillance at all) on American citizens. You're championing Snowden for gathering evidence and releasing it to the public about the existence of a technical capability, yet you don't seem to expect the same level of disclosure from him of proof that it has been or ever will be used against Americans. He claimed to have unprecedented access to these files and that he could wiretap anyone, yet he provided no proof at all of that portion.

    So you're right. I wouldn't expect the NSA to release evidence of wrongdoing because they haven't made any claims that any wrongdoing occurred. In fact, they make the claim that there has been no wrongdoing at all. So the burden of proof in on Edward Snowden to prove that the wrongdoing has occurred, which he has clearly failed to do.

    The "least untruthful" quote you are incorrectly attributing to the NSA instead of the correct person, James Clapper. I also believe you are mischaracterizing the letter from the Senators to the NSA. From reading it, it seems to me that the NSA released a fact sheet to try and answer questions the public may have and that the Senators interpreted one of the statements as being misleading, based on classified information they were aware of, and asked that the agency correct the statement. Here is the link to the document: Link. As of this moment, the NSA has removed the document and we will see what they put up as a correction.

    Finally, it is nothing but reasonable to review classified programs in classified courts. The government isn't going to publicly reveal all of its classified information simply because someone wants to challenge it in court. That's the whole reason the FISC was created by Congress. And yes, if someone want to challenge an order of the court, the onus is on them to prove it is illegal, as it is in all cases that go before any court in this country. If the FISC finds something lawful, then they are the the arbiter of classified information, as established by Congress (a Constitutionally granted responsibility) and so it is by definition legal.

    So yes. People who claim illegal activities are taking place are required to provide proof. It would be the same as the government going to a court and saying "We believe palbert is a drug dealer. We don't have any proof or reasonable suspicion, but just let us go into his house to look for some and we'll come back to you."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Misguided? No that would be you, Lostlover and Tigerfan here. Snowden may be clearly less than he seemed to present himself but you think our people are better? you're so cynical about everything else virtually, but here trust a vast, deeply hidden surveillance state structure? More like there are no angels in this battle, and our guys are closer to the devils we despise than we'd care to admit.
    I've seen no evidence of a deep, hidden surveillance state structure. I see plenty of proof that Snowden is a liar.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Two instances of NSA over-reach:

    http://www.ibtimes.com/fisc-will-not...lance-1305023#
    This is the perfect example of the NSA developing a surveillance program, taking it to the court, and the court finding it wasn't legal. Rubber stamp my ass. The system seems to work just fine.

    DNI James Clapper's statements to Congress that NSA does "not wittingly" collect data on Americans. He knew that response to be false, and later stated it was the "least untruthful" way he could answer.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...veillance.html
    Let's go with the whole back and forth to get the context under which he answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by March 12, 2013 Senate Intelligence Committee Hearing
    Wyden: "And this is for you, Director Clapper, again on the surveillance front. And I hope we can do this in just a yes or no answer, because I know Sen. Feinstein wants to move on.
    "Last summer the NSA director was at a conference and he was asked a question about the NSA surveillance of Americans. He replied, and I quote here, '... the story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is completely false.'
    "The reason I'm asking the question is, having served on the committee now for a dozen years, I don't really know what a dossier is in this context. So what I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes or no answer to the question: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?"
    Clapper: "No, sir."
    Wyden: "It does not."
    Clapper: "Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently perhaps collect, but not wittingly."
    Wyden: "All right. Thank you. I'll have additional questions to give you in writing on that point, but I thank you for the answer."
    So I'm not going to expect any of you people with predisposed feelings of hostility towards the government to really read or try to understand this, but for the others, I will explain to you exactly what happened here. I have worked with some people who have worked in the intelligence field before, and my experience with them is where I am getting some of this. First off, it was a loaded question, asked in a yes or no fashion, which was designed to trip someone up. Second, in the intelligence community, the term collect is used to refer to a situation in which you focus your resources on a specific target and use those resources to get the information you need from that target. Third, and most important, metadata, such as that the Verizon warrant specifies, isn't legally considered data belonging to a specific individual, and as such, isn't considered data of any person until such time as that metadata is time correlated with an individual person. So a phone number is nothing but a phone number until it is associated with an individual at that point in time. So in 2011, that phone number may have belonged to Bob Smith. In 2012, that phone number may belong to Jane Doe. They aren't identifiable pieces of information until time correlated, at which point they are then considered data belonging to an individual. According to the warrant, Verizon was required to give ALL of its metadata from all calls that passed through its networks to the NSA. The data only included phones numbers, durations of calls, and transactional data. It specifically prohibits the collection of personally identifiable information (name, address, and financial information) as well as the content of any calls.

    So yes - in the intelligence (and legal) worlds, what James Clapper said was correct. And his attempts to explain it to an uncleared public audience was that it was the "least untruthful" he could be without divulging classified information used to frame his answer to what was specifically asked to be a yes or no question.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    That and now the unsung hero of the information revolution is fleeing to communist strongman countries where freedom is not even an illusion?
    He hasn't been to one.

    That you make the claim he has is tragic.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Misguided? No that would be you, Lostlover and Tigerfan here. Snowden may be clearly less than he seemed to present himself but you think our people are better? you're so cynical about everything else virtually, but here trust a vast, deeply hidden surveillance state structure? More like there are no angels in this battle, and our guys are closer to the devils we despise than we'd care to admit.
    There's no arguing with those who worship the holy State. They're part of a disease that needs to fade away --carefully -- if mankind is to survive.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The effective oversight of these NSA/FBI programs is belied by Maine Senator Susan Collins, who, if anyone was, was entitled to be "read in:"



    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...ver-briefed-on

    I have read the Geek's Guide. The author draws distinctions without difference to the issue at hand. And if he knows so much why isn't he in jail?
    Oh, but public officials can be in error or corrupt -- it's only the hidden, secret part of the government that is holy and righteous and pure.


    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    The NSA has pulled a Surveillance Fact Sheet ("SFS") from its website in response to Senators' objections that the SFS inaccurately described collection efforts regarding "US persons" communications.

    National Security Agency Director Gen. Keith B. Alexander acknowledged Tuesday that a fact sheet on the agency’s Web site inaccurately described the extent to which the communications of U.S. citizens are protected from the spy agency’s collection of e-mail and other material from technology companies.
    ....
    “Given the intense interest from the media, the public, and Congress, we believe the precision of the source document (the statute) is the best possible representation of applicable authorities,” (NSA spokesperson) Emmel said in a prepared statement sent by e-mail to The Washington Post.
    ....
    The fact sheet asserted broadly that the program “allows only the targeting . . . of communications of foreign persons who are located abroad.” In his reply letter, Alexander acknowledged that the law allows for “the targeting of persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States.” That language leaves a fair amount of discretion to analysts to determine whether a person is overseas.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...9c6_story.html

    The Surveillance Fact Sheet also stated that Section 702 did not allow for the collection anywhere of communications of US persons. (Page 2 of SFS)

    This indicates that at some level the NSA did not understand the limits (unclear as they are) of its mandate.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Let us not forget that many of us are viewing PRISM and related efforts in the light of history. NSA has never been remiss in its efforts to accumulate information on Americans.

    Sister Projects SHAMROCK and MINARET are prime examples. These lead to the Church Committee and, ultimately, FISA. (Senate Intelligence Committee chairman Sen. Frank Church concluded that Project SHAMROCK was "probably the largest government interception program affecting Americans ever undertaken.")

    It seems that NSA programs - and certainly program "creep" - are shielded from effective oversight or are unknown to those who should be informed.

    Are elements of NSA's programs inimical to some "US persons?" Almost assuredly, but we know not how much.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Let us not forget that many of us are viewing PRISM and related efforts in the light of history. NSA has never been remiss in its efforts to accumulate information on Americans.

    Sister Projects SHAMROCK and MINARET are prime examples. These lead to the Church Committee and, ultimately, FISA. (Senate Intelligence Committee chairman Sen. Frank Church concluded that Project SHAMROCK was "probably the largest government interception program affecting Americans ever undertaken.")

    It seems that NSA programs - and certainly program "creep" - are shielded from effective oversight or are unknown to those who should be informed.

    Are elements of NSA's programs inimical to some "US persons?" Almost assuredly, but we know not how much.
    That much we know - it's what we don't know that should concern Americans. For sure there is much, much more that is concealed from Congressional oversight ...in the interests of national security - of course.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The NSA has pulled a Surveillance Fact Sheet ("SFS") from its website in response to Senators' objections that the SFS inaccurately described collection efforts regarding "US persons" communications.



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...9c6_story.html

    The Surveillance Fact Sheet also stated that Section 702 did not allow for the collection anywhere of communications of US persons. (Page 2 of SFS)

    This indicates that at some level the NSA did not understand the limits (unclear as they are) of its mandate.
    And proves, contrary to those who worship government and holy and pure, that they have been willingly and knowingly lying to us.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Let us not forget that many of us are viewing PRISM and related efforts in the light of history. NSA has never been remiss in its efforts to accumulate information on Americans.

    Sister Projects SHAMROCK and MINARET are prime examples. These lead to the Church Committee and, ultimately, FISA. (Senate Intelligence Committee chairman Sen. Frank Church concluded that Project SHAMROCK was "probably the largest government interception program affecting Americans ever undertaken.")

    It seems that NSA programs - and certainly program "creep" - are shielded from effective oversight or are unknown to those who should be informed.

    Are elements of NSA's programs inimical to some "US persons?" Almost assuredly, but we know not how much.
    See my post in the other thread for this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That much we know - it's what we don't know that should concern Americans. For sure there is much, much more that is concealed from Congressional oversight ...in the interests of national security - of course.
    No. There is so much more concealed from you and you hate it. You hate the fact that you don't know everything the government is doing. There has been, at best, a muted response from Congress because they did know about the programs, they did authorize, then reauthorize them, and they do know how they operate and what they do. They have oversight and this is why you see nothing really happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And proves, contrary to those who worship government and holy and pure, that they have been willingly and knowingly lying to us.
    Wel now let's get the actual fact sheets and letters out there before we start taking snippets from these sensationalist articles.

    Original Fact Sheets
    Letter to NSA from Senators Wyden and Udall
    General Alexander's Response

    So, without knowing exactly what was in the classified attachment, I could safely guess the second bullet point under the top portion for FAA 702 is what concerned the Senators. This is true under the FAA 702. What is not true is that NSA can't target Americans at all, which is what the Senators seemed to be concerned about. The NSA can target Americans with an appropriate warrant, but that does not fall under the authorities of FAA 702. As you can see from the letter, General Alexander acknowledged they could have made this clearer to those not familiar with FAA or FISA, so he broke down exactly what was meant by that second bullet point. It is clear from the bullet points General Alexander used in his letter, the NSA cannot target Americans (at least those that they are able to identify as Americans) or anyone in America under the FAA 702.

    So your contention that the NSA explicitly lied, that the Senators accused them of specifically lying, and that the NSA then admitted to lying are just completely false.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    He hasn't been to one.

    That you make the claim he has is tragic.
    Bullshit dude, if you think China and Russia are democracies then you're delusional.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    There has been, at best, a muted response from Congress because they did know about the programs, they did authorize, then reauthorize them, and they do know how they operate and what they do. They have oversight and this is why you see nothing really happening.
    THIS.... we have had hearings galore on the IRS and yet the NSA situation isn't getting the time of day from our government.... gee golly. So are you all from abroad and those of you in the US that give a shit--- are you going to push the police government into the sea as Kulidhar recently applauded the Brazilian people for doing?

    I'll wait.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Bullshit dude, if you think China and Russia are democracies then you're delusional.
    So you're changing your claim -- that shows me you know you were wrong.

    Hong Kong is not run by a strongman,and is not communist; Russia is not communist.

    In fact Hong Kong may be closer to a real democracy than many states run by the GOP.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And proves, contrary to those who worship government and holy and pure, that they have been willingly and knowingly lying to us.
    And you responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So your contention that the NSA explicitly lied, that the Senators accused them of specifically lying, and that the NSA then admitted to lying are just completely false.
    The only way your claim here is true is if the Washington Post is lying.

    You go to great lengths to claim the government is pure and spotless. Senator Wyden pointed out to the NSA that they had false or misleading information on the fact sheet. They changed it -- which is an admission that the good senator was correct.

    Your case now rests on insisting that some, anyone, maybe everyone -- except the NSA! -- is lying.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    THIS.... we have had hearings galore on the IRS and yet the NSA situation isn't getting the time of day from our government.... gee golly. So are you all from abroad and those of you in the US that give a shit--- are you going to push the police government into the sea as Kulidhar recently applauded the Brazilian people for doing?

    I'll wait.
    I'm not surprised that you're chiming in with the theme that senators lied, and the NSA never, ever would.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I said:



    And you responded:



    The only way your claim here is true is if the Washington Post is lying.

    You go to great lengths to claim the government is pure and spotless. Senator Wyden pointed out to the NSA that they had false or misleading information on the fact sheet. They changed it -- which is an admission that the good senator was correct.

    Your case now rests on insisting that some, anyone, maybe everyone -- except the NSA! -- is lying.
    I would unequivocally believe the Washington Post is lying. No, I take that back. They are sensationalizing a story as they have been known to do. However, you don't need to take my word or their word for it. You can read the linked supporting material yourself.

    And I have never claimed the government is pure and spotless. In fact, I have said many times in multiple posts that they have made mistakes in the past. But I have also said that those mistakes were done by individuals or small groups within the government and that there was no far-reaching, government wide conspiracy, which you have provided no proof to support.

    The Senator pointed out that he believed the information would be misleading to the public, and the NSA clarified (not corrected) the information. Again, if you read the attached supporting documents, you will see that General Alexander said exactly that.

    And I have not based my case on claiming anyone else is lying. I have based my case on what actual evidence is out there and not some sensationalized news story or blog post. You, on the other hand, have provided almost no evidence or supporting material except your own biases, an occasional (and generally (mis)) quote from another JUB poster, or some link to some libertarian leaning opinion piece that you accept as fact. Your argument is week. Please go get some supporting evidence before you post again and embarrass yourself further.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And I have not based my case on claiming anyone else is lying. I have based my case on what actual evidence is out there and not some sensationalized news story or blog post. You, on the other hand, have provided almost no evidence or supporting material except your own biases, an occasional (and generally (mis)) quote from another JUB poster, or some link to some libertarian leaning opinion piece that you accept as fact. Your argument is week. Please go get some supporting evidence before you post again and embarrass yourself further.
    I can't figure out what sort of bubble you live in. History shows that government cannot be trusted. The trend of every government throughout history has been toward gathering ever more authority and power, and abusing what it has. Republics have risen, but always fallen, and so it goes. Only throwing out a government and starting anew has ever managed to increase liberty, unless an outside power has leaned on a smaller one to increase liberty for its citizens. After a pair of university world history, plus ancient history and other courses, that's pretty obvious.

    Your position rests on assuming that because those outside the circle of power can't find evidence of wrongdoing, there is no wrongdoing. That's naive, the sort of belief someone in an ivory tower with no experience of human nature might hold, but not someone who's dealt with the real world. Case in point: out of five contractors asked to assess my mom's house and provide information and estimates about installing a heat pump, only one was fully honest and didn't lie or distort in order to pump up his price. Of the two who were fully or partly honest, both told me how to deal with the government on the issue, because the government can't be trusted to be honest.

    If that last applies to local government, it most assuredly applies to the higher -- and more so. Those who love power and its perks and abuses always gravitate toward where there is more power, where they abuse it the more.

    If the NSA is even as pure as the inverse of the ratio tossed out earlier -- if even one in three or four of its employees is really intent on working for the people and obeying the law -- it will be a purity exceeding that of any government I've seen.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; June 26th, 2013 at 11:32 PM. Reason: idiotic "update" function doubled my post

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I can't figure out what sort of bubble you live in. History shows that government cannot be trusted. The trend of every government throughout history has been toward gathering ever more authority and power, and abusing what it has. Republics have risen, but always fallen, and so it goes. Only throwing out a government and starting anew has ever managed to increase liberty, unless an outside power has leaned on a smaller one to increase liberty for its citizens. After a pair of university world history, plus ancient history and other courses, that's pretty obvious.

    Your position rests on assuming that because those outside the circle of power can't find evidence of wrongdoing, there is no wrongdoing. That's naive, the sort of belief someone in an ivory tower with no experience of human nature might hold, but not someone who's dealt with the real world. Case in point: out of five contractors asked to assess my mom's house and provide information and estimates about installing a heat pump, only one was fully honest and didn't lie or distort in order to pump up his price. Of the two who were fully or partly honest, both told me how to deal with the government on the issue, because the government can't be trusted to be honest.

    If that last applies to local government, it most assuredly applies to the higher -- and more so. Those who love power and its perks and abuses always gravitate toward where there is more power, where they abuse it the more.

    If the NSA is even as pure as the inverse of the ratio tossed out earlier -- if even one in three or four of its employees is really intent on working for the people and obeying the law -- it will be a purity exceeding that of any government I've seen.
    I know exactly what bubble you live in. A bubble full of obvious hate and loathing for the government. It's clear in every one of your posts. You provide no fact (so the government is totally crooked and dishonest because you tell us some home inspector told you that the government couldn't be trusted?) and merely state what your opinion is and try to pass it off as fact. You've never worked for the government and you have no idea what goes on in it outside of your daily sensationalized news feed.

    However, I would challenge that if the government is indeed power hungry and rife with lies and deceit, then it's only because that's what the populace has made it. In a government the is made up of members of the society who were voted in by the society at large, the only ones to blame are those in the society.

    But that's assuming that the government is this power-hungry, corrupt, dishonest cesspool you make it out to be, which it is not. You hate the government, we get that. Most Libertarians do except when it comes time to rely on them, then they'll yell and scream that they aren't getting what's owed to them.

    Also, I would invite you to read (and maybe get someone to help you comprehend if you're having trouble) my previus posts to see that I acknowledged several times that there are bad apples in government because it is made up of fallible people. But we live in a country where wrongdoing is required to be proven, not that innocence from wrongdoing has to be proven. Your argument is so astoundingly lacking in any rationality that it is humorous. You argue that because some local contractor that you claim told you the local government couldn't be trusted so by virtue of that fact everyone in the federal government above that must be corrupt and untrustworthy as well because it's a higher level of government. That is one of the funniest things I've read in a while. Completely lacking any substantiative premises, but it is funny. Cheers to you!

    Point is, until you actually can show proof of wrongdoing, you have no argument. It's what is required by the Constitution that you pull out when you want to argue a supporting position for your points and then quickly put away when the situation doesn't match what you believe.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    I am neither a pinko nor a Luddite. I tend to not get involved in long screeds. I have been seeking a succinct statement of my concerns, and came across this:

    Our government is not totalitarian. Our leaders, even the worst of them, are not totalitarian. But our technology is totalitarian, or rather it is there and can be used and abused by those whose impulses tend, even unconsciously or unthinkingly, in that direction.

    So what's needed? We must realize this is a crucial moment: We either go forward with these programs now or we stop, and think. Some call for a conversation, but what we really need is a debate—a real argument. It will require a new candor from the government as to what the National Security Agency does and doesn't do. We need a new rigor in the areas of oversight and accountability—including explicit limits on what can and should be allowed, accompanied by explicit and even harsh penalties for violations. This debate will also require information that is reliable—that is, true—from the government about what past terrorist attempts have been slowed or stopped by the surveillance state.
    The quote is from Peggy Noonan, writing in the Wall Street Journal, at:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...259199626.html

    The Snowden revelations followed quickly upon my expressed concerns about the advances in biometrics.

    At this point the only "truth" - pertinent to me - appears to be coming from the Snowden revelations. While the government says that for national security reasons it cannot be more forthcoming, in my mind the government has an obligation to do so.

    The debate has yet to be had.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I am neither a pinko nor a Luddite. I tend to not get involved in long screeds. I have been seeking a succinct statement of my concerns, and came across this:

    The quote is from Peggy Noonan, writing in the Wall Street Journal, at:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...259199626.html
    I would think Noonan needs to go and read the laws that govern how the NSA and other intelligence agencies conduct their business. There are laws in place that explicitly state what can and cannot be done and under what circumstances. It's in writing for anyone who looks up the FISA and FAAs can read. What the NSA does and does do is explained, on their website and in other sources, to the extent possible. If Noonan is advocating declassifying everything the government does and putting it out for the public to see, that is a task that is not doable and defeats the purpose of the government doing those things anyway. When you are going after an adversary, whether it be terrorists, hostile foreign governments, rogue enemy individuals, etc., you have to do it in a way that allows you to do so without allowing them to stay one step ahead. Would people agree with the idea that the military should broadcast its battle plans to everyone in the US to gain approval and have a spirited debate before carrying them out? I would hope the answer would be no from a logical individual. The same holds even more true for intelligence gathering, where you have to operate out of the public view in order to gather the knowledge needed. You can bet that states like China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, and a whole list of others conduct these operations daily without a peep to the world community, or even their populations, because they understand that the efficacy of such programs depend on doing them in silence. What people don't seem to get is that secrecy doesn't equate to nefarious. Just because people are scared of what they don't know, doesn't mean what they don't know is abridging their rights or making them less of a free people.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The Snowden revelations followed quickly upon my expressed concerns about the advances in biometrics.

    At this point the only "truth" - pertinent to me - appears to be coming from the Snowden revelations. While the government says that for national security reasons it cannot be more forthcoming, in my mind the government has an obligation to do so.

    The debate has yet to be had.
    I would say your concerns about biometrics, while partially legitimate, are not necessarily germane to this argument. If you make advances to prevent identification of a person by biometrics (especially things such as gait identification), then you get into the slippery slope of eliminating things like eye witnesses and put into a domain consider to be protected under privacy a whole host of identification features that have no reasonable expectation of privacy.

    However, as far as truth in this case goes, I don't believe Snowden has met the burden of such yet.

    1) He released a PowerPoint (which we've only seen 4 of 41 pages of) that indicates there is a program that allows the NSA to obtain a particular set of data from US service providers. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact, and there is partial evidence to back that up. However, what wasn't provided was any evidence that it has been used to target Americans. Snowden claims the NSA stores all of this and he could access it, given his accesses, on anyone in the US, yet he provided no proof of this. The service providers claim they can provide data when NSA comes to them with a valid court order. So in the use of this program, there is no evidence to support either side, so you can't derive any truth from either of those. Both parties, Snowden because he is an admitted Libertarian leaning person who admitted to taking the job with Booz Allen to get information on the programs to use, and the service providers who could stand to lose a lot of trust and business because of this program, have plenty of motivation to direct the conversation and push their version of the story.

    2) He released a Verizon warrant showing the delivery of bulk metadata to the NSA. There is no one denying this. However, the data delivered (originating phone number, destination phone number, and length of call) have been ruled in the past as not covered under the Fourth Amendment (Smith vs. Maryland) and was codified into law with the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. Thus, the fact that the government had a warrant granting them this collection (which incidentally, if you look at the warrant is only a Secondary Order) and the fact that they were collecting non-protected data indicates that no wrongdoing at all occurred. The reason the program was kept secret is because announcing to the world you're using metadata, with the appropriate warrants, to find who terrorists called from overseas in the US, compromises your ability to find and track terrorists and their activities in the US.

    The burden of proof is still on Snowden to support his claims that the government collects all of this PRISM data and can easily access it whenever. Even he himself has not accused anyone of actually breaking the law and using this technology to spy on Americans. I'm not so sure why everyone else has jumped on the hyped up media spin that somehow existence of these programs automatically means that they are being used against Americans.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    A group of bipartisan Senators has written the the NSA accusing it of using a "secret body of law" to justify its material accumulation.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ata-collection

    Letter at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...-james-clapper

    Today The New York Times editorialized that the known NSA projects were "criminal." To date they have said precious little - and covered less - of this controversy.

    And with this I take my leave of this Thread, and, soon of JUB.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    A group of bipartisan Senators has written the the NSA accusing it of using a "secret body of law" to justify its material accumulation.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ata-collection

    Letter at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...-james-clapper

    Today The New York Times editorialized that the known NSA projects were "criminal." To date they have said precious little - and covered less - of this controversy.

    And with this I take my leave of this Thread, and, soon of JUB.
    I will be interested to see the response to the questions in the letter. I'll also be interested to see what actions come from them. I'm betting nothing. From many of them (like Wyden and Udall) it's faux outrage over programs they've known about for a while.

    As far as the New York Times article, I don't pay much attention to editorials. I like facts and evidence to be in the articles I read.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Another lawsuit has been filed questioning the surveillance by NSA/FBI.

    Unitarian Church, Gun Groups Join EFF to Sue NSA Over Illegal Surveillance

    San Francisco - Nineteen organizations including Unitarian church groups, gun ownership advocates, and a broad coalition of membership and political advocacy organizations filed suit against the National Security Agency (NSA) today for violating their First Amendment right of association by illegally collecting their call records. The coalition is represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), a group with years of experience fighting illegal government surveillance in the courts.
    https://www.eff.org/press/releases/u...l-surveillance

    For the complaint:

    https://www.eff.org/node/75009

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