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  1. #151
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post


    It is in times of distress that our liberties are most threatened. It is during these times that we must act most emphatically to protect our rights - not suspend them because we feel threatened by trying times.
    This...............

  2. #152
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Meyer's mantra is that security is more important than liberty, especially in times of distress. As if interning Japanese Americans made us safer during WWII! So much safer that it was worth suspending the civil and human rights of 150,000 American citizens.
    Finding all those people must have posed a difficult challenge. I reckon the task would have been much easier if they’d had a database back then.


  3. #153
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Were German- Americans or Italian-Americans similarly given up and mistreated like the Japanese-Americans were? Probably one of the most disgraceful moments of destruction of individual liberties in our history, and to liberal icon FDR's eternal discredit. And lol, we had as Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces a German-American, Dwight Eisenhower. What were we thinking?( being totally sarcastic and cynical here)
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  4. #154
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, it is your contention that the NSA has set up a massive data mining system within the USA, in order to spy on foreigners, exclusively.

    I would suggest to the NSA that if it was interested in foreigners and not Americans, it might monitor foreign internet traffic, not American.
    First off, yes they did set up a massive data mining system in the US. Other countries generally would not let the United States set up data mining systems in their countries. Also, most of the world's data flows through the United States, especially when foreigners are using international providers like Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft. Please learn about how data flows around the world before you attempt to pull a conspiracy out of nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    No, of course, it's ridiculous to suppose that the NSA would set up a massive system designed to spy on Americans, and then use it to spy on Americans. What was I thinking?
    Again, you make the assumption that NSA has set up a system designed to spy on Americans and then run with it as truth. You have not provided one shred of evidence that this surveillance system was set up to spy on Americans. Not one single piece. Until you do, your arguments are nothing but your opinion with no backing.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Snowden did not claim that, and he did provide evidence of what PRISM is doing.
    Wow. Are you serious? Please go back and read the interview with Snowden because he said it clear as day. You're obviously arguing points from articles you haven't even read.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Why do you assume that a 29 year old low-level IT guy at the NSA in Hawaii had comprehensive access to everything the NSA collects nationwide, and the ability to smuggle this information out?

    Why do you regard Snowden as some kind of IT god?
    Because he said he could do it. He said it himself. I'm not assuming. I'm going by what he claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    And why do you assume that a system designed from the ground up to spy on all Americans is not being used to spy on Americans?
    Because you or anyone else has not presented ANY evidence supporting the idea the system was designed to spy on Americans. Please take an introductory to logic course at your local community college and learn how to form reasoned arguments. You have to be able to present factual premises to support your conclusion and nothing you have presented in this thread is fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    PRISM was set up within the USA to spy on American internet traffic. I guess if you want to know what is going on in Beijing, Moscow, and Tehran, you check in with Milwaukee, Burbank, and Tallahassee.
    It's funny how many times you can make an unsubstantiated claim in one post. You obviously don't understand a) how data flows around the globe and b) how the NSA works at all. As I stated above, if you want to know what people in Beijing, Moscow, and Tehran are doing on the internet, you don't (and can't) walk into those places and set up shop.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    How do you know that PRISM and multiple similar programs cost only $20 million per year?
    This is getting to the point of absurdity. The ONLY piece of evidence on the PRISM program that was released (the select PowerPoint slides that the Guardian released) showed that the program cost $20 million a year. You're being selective with the selective facts that have been released. You say we must trust the slides in order to prove that the system exists yet we can't trust the slides when they say it costs $20 million a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Exactly as I described, Meyer claims that Franklin did not mean to caution us about trading liberty for security in our current circumstance, apparently because the liberties now compromised are somehow not essential, and the safety achieved is somehow not temporary. What a staggeringly stupid argument.
    So are you then arguing that Franklin used extra words that he didn't really mean? He said "essential liberties" instead of "liberties" and "temporary security" instead of "security" for a reason. I have noticed in your understanding of the quote that you omit those words, but he clearly used them and he clearly knew what they meant. Besides, that quote does not at all convey the message that Ben Franklin actually meant the opposite of what he said. That quote demonstrates that the author of the article has an understanding of the quote that says certain liberties may be able to be sacrificed for longer term security. It is a viewpoint many Americans have. But nowhere in that quote did he say it was what Ben Franklin really meant.

  5. #155
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Interesting piece on HOW untied congress is on this issue. I wonder how many folks here agree with any other item that Rand Paul and Ted Cruz put out??

    Congress' Love fest with Spying

    Finally, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, a persistent critic of the PATRIOT Act, declined to criticize Obama or high-tech intrusion in general and has now called for Snowden’s prosecution. Pelosi may have internalized the fact that she has been on the receiving end of over $185,000 in campaign contributions from the computer and internet industries over the last three election cycles, with names like Eric Schmidt of Google and Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook gracing her donor roster, or maybe that we are under a threat, albeit one markedly different and more diffuse from that posed by the Soviet Union back in the day.

    Still, Pelosi’s newfound vigilance is noteworthy. In 2005 she had opposed blanket renewal of the PATRIOT Act, and invoked the Founding Fathers in so doing, because they “knew that you cannot have security without liberty, or liberty without security in a democracy.” Two years ago, Pelosi criticized the Republican-led Congress for failing “to seize the opportunity to enact measures and improvements needed to preserve Americans’ privacy and to incorporate oversight and compliance with the law.”
    Golly gee willickers I wonder why it is that Nancy Pelosi changed her tune?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  6. #156
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    First off, yes they did set up a massive data mining system in the US. Other countries generally would not let the United States set up data mining systems in their countries. Also, most of the world's data flows through the United States, especially when foreigners are using international providers like Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft. Please learn about how data flows around the world before you attempt to pull a conspiracy out of nothing.
    I am well aware of the flow of data around the globe. And I know that it is not necessary to listen in on the communications of every American in order to spy on foreigners.

    I also know that it is no longer true that most of the world's electronic communications flow through the USA. That was true a few years ago, when most of the internet's infrastructure resided within the USA.

    So, why is the NSA spying on Americans?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, you make the assumption that NSA has set up a system designed to spy on Americans and then run with it as truth. You have not provided one shred of evidence that this surveillance system was set up to spy on Americans. Not one single piece. Until you do, your arguments are nothing but your opinion with no backing.
    That's not my claim. That is the claim of one Edward Snowden, an NSA IT systems administrator.

    The evidence I have is Snowden's claim, backed by documents he presented to The Guardian and The South China Morning Post. Of course, Snowden may be lying. But what he presents is evience, nevertheless.

    You, on the other hand, keep insisting that Americans are not being spied upon indiscriminately, and the only "evidence" you present is your impression that the NSA just wouldn't do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Wow. Are you serious? Please go back and read the interview with Snowden because he said it clear as day. You're obviously arguing points from articles you haven't even read.
    Snowden said that an analyst with the proper authority could target anyone. Technologically speaking, he could target anyone. That does not mean that analysts have permission to spy on old girlfriends, get insider stock tips from Warren Buffet, or spy on the president. Do you really think these people are given a terminal and just allowed to do whatever they want?

    IT people who work in banks, for example, often have the ability to look up the finances of any account holder at the bank, including celebrities. That does not mean that they are permitted to do so. Such employees are routinely monitored, and routinely fired if they stray outside of their assigned work at hand. Snowden emphasized several times that he was not special at the NSA. I have no reason to dispute his claim.

    There is a more important point here, however. Snowden says it is possible to target anybody. If that's true, why is the NSA targeting everybody? The civil rights issue here is not that people are being spied upon because some court has granted permission on the basis of some suspicion of wrongdoing. It is that people are being spied upon without suspicion and without court supervision.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Because he said he could do it. He said it himself. I'm not assuming. I'm going by what he claimed.
    Yes, he said he could do that. He did not say that he would or that he had permission to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Because you or anyone else has not presented ANY evidence supporting the idea the system was designed to spy on Americans. Please take an introductory to logic course at your local community college and learn how to form reasoned arguments. You have to be able to present factual premises to support your conclusion and nothing you have presented in this thread is fact.
    The evidence we have is Snowden's claims, and the documents he has produced to corroborate his claims.

    You, on the other hand, keep insisting that unauthorized spying is surely not occurring (despite Snowden's evidence to the contrary), and your own "evidence" is your belief that the NSA are fine people who surely would not do such a thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    It's funny how many times you can make an unsubstantiated claim in one post. You obviously don't understand a) how data flows around the globe and b) how the NSA works at all. As I stated above, if you want to know what people in Beijing, Moscow, and Tehran are doing on the internet, you don't (and can't) walk into those places and set up shop.
    The point is that if the NSA wants to spy on foreigners, why are they spying on Americans?

    I appreciate the difficulty they face in attempting to monitor communications activity on foreign soil. My heart bleeds for them. That does not make it okay to spy on Americans.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    This is getting to the point of absurdity. The ONLY piece of evidence on the PRISM program that was released (the select PowerPoint slides that the Guardian released) showed that the program cost $20 million a year. You're being selective with the selective facts that have been released. You say we must trust the slides in order to prove that the system exists yet we can't trust the slides when they say it costs $20 million a year.
    PRISM is one part of a spectrum of programs which seem to be targeting Americans indiscriminately. How do you know what they cost?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So are you then arguing that Franklin used extra words that he didn't really mean?
    No, I am arguing that Franklin meant exactly what he said.

    Robert Meyer's argument that Franklin was trying to warn us of the need to surrender liberty for security when times get tough is not very convincing. In fact, it's ridiculous.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 16th, 2013 at 05:59 PM.

  7. #157
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    It would be nice if you could actually understand what PRISM is if you are going to argue about it "targeting". PRISM actually works opposite of what a standard PRISM does... that being "separating white light into a spectrum..." PRISM specifically targets information meeting a guideline input by the user.

    I did find the last meaning rather amusing.... in this context...

    prism (przm)
    n.
    1. A solid figure whose bases or ends have the same size and shape and are parallel to one another, and each of whose sides is a parallelogram.
    2. A transparent body of this form, often of glass and usually with triangular ends, used for separating white light passed through it into a spectrum or for reflecting beams of light.
    3. A cut-glass object, such as a pendant of a chandelier.
    4. A crystal form consisting of three or more similar faces parallel to a single axis.
    5. A medium that misrepresents whatever is seen through it.
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  8. #158
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    It would be nice if you could actually understand what PRISM is if you are going to argue about it "targeting". PRISM actually works opposite of what a standard PRISM does... that being "separating white light into a spectrum..." PRISM specifically targets information meeting a guideline input by the user.
    That is precisely the problem.

    All of our communications are being monitored indiscriminately. And, if we say the wrong things in our private communications, our government may take action against us.

    Is that the kind of America in which we want to live? One where we must always be careful of what we say, even in our most private moments, lest the government inspectors take exception?

    Is it really necessary to destroy liberty in order to "protect" it?

  9. #159
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I am well aware of the flow of data around the globe. And I know that it is not necessary to listen in on the communications of every American in order to spy on foreigners.

    I also know that it is no longer true that most of the world's electronic communications flow through the USA. That was true a few years ago, when most of the internet's infrastructure resided within the USA.

    So, why is the NSA spying on Americans?
    Again, you are assuming that spying on Americans is going on and you're using it as a truth to base your argument on. There is nothing at all that substantiates any claim you make that the NSA is spying on Americans. None whatsoever. You haven't presented a single thing to back up your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    That's not my claim. That is the claim of one Edward Snowden, an NSA IT systems administrator.

    The evidence I have is Snowden's claim, backed by documents he presented to The Guardian and The South China Morning Post. Of course, Snowden may be lying. But what he presents is evience, nevertheless.

    You, on the other hand, keep insisting that Americans are not being spied upon indiscriminately, and the only "evidence" you present is your impression that the NSA just wouldn't do that.
    Snowden has not given any evidence that Americans are or were being spied on. He even stated that he was showing that using the PRISM system someone could possibly spy on Americans, and that he didn't have any evidence that Americans were being targeted for spy operations. However, in order to give yourself a chance to vindicate your argument, please post the links to those articles showing the proof that Americans are being spied on, keeping in mind that saying that "well they could use this system to spy on Americans" is not the same as "they have used this system to spy on Americans."

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Snowden said that an analyst with the proper authority could target anyone. Technologically speaking, he could target anyone. That does not mean that analysts have permission to spy on old girlfriends, get insider stock tips from Warren Buffet, or spy on the president. Do you really think these people are given a terminal and just allowed to do whatever they want?

    IT people who work in banks, for example, often have the ability to look up the finances of any account holder at the bank, including celebrities. That does not mean that they are permitted to do so. Such employees are routinely monitored, and routinely fired if they stray outside of their assigned work at hand. Snowden emphasized several times that he was not special at the NSA. I have no reason to dispute his claim.

    There is a more important point here, however. Snowden says it is possible to target anybody. If that's true, why is the NSA targeting everybody? The civil rights issue here is not that people are being spied upon because some court has granted permission on the basis of some suspicion of wrongdoing. It is that people are being spied upon without suspicion and without court supervision.
    Sounds like you're getting caught up in your doublespeak. Let's review how this conversation went down:
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482
    If this system is capable of spying on all Americans and Snowden had the ability, as he claimed, to be able to tap into anyone's information at the push of a button, why didn't he provide an example?
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx
    Snowden did not claim that, and he did provide evidence of what PRISM is doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482
    Wow. Are you serious? Please go back and read the interview with Snowden because he said it clear as day. You're obviously arguing points from articles you haven't even read.
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx
    Snowden said that an analyst with the proper authority could target anyone. Technologically speaking, he could target anyone. That does not mean that analysts have permission to spy on old girlfriends, get insider stock tips from Warren Buffet, or spy on the president. Do you really think these people are given a terminal and just allowed to do whatever they want?
    Looks to me like you completely changed your stance. And besides, Snowden claimed that "I sitting at my desk certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone...". For your reference, this occurs in the interview found here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...nterview-video at around the 3:30 mark.

    It also appears here that you are not only arguing against yourself, but supporting my stance as well. You argue that just because someone has the technical or physical ability to possibly do something doesn't mean they ever have, currently are, or will ever do it. However, you turn right around and say that (minus any evidence to support it) NSA must be spying on Americans because they have a technological capability to do so. You're going to have to choose one side or the other in this argument.

    And what sense does your last paragraph there make at all? First off, the NSA is not targeting everybody. Snowden has said this himself. We'll assume for the moment that the PRISM program works as you claim and that every bit of data on earth is stored by NSA. It's still not spying or targeting unless someone specifically goes into and extracts/reviews the information about someone. So it would be impossible for the NSA to target everybody. I don't expect you to get this because you're hell bent on the idea that the government is spending all of its time spying on Americans, but it's just a logical conclusion at this point given what has been put out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Yes, he said he could do that. He did not say that he would or that he had permission to do so.
    First off, he claimed he had the authorities to do it. I take that as him saying he has the permission to do it. Second, so this is an acceptable argument when giving Snowden a free pass, but it's not okay if it applies to the government? The comparison of "could" and "is doing" occurred earlier in this thread, so please go back and read that. Bottom line is that the government may possess an ability that, when specifically set to target an American, could technically collect communications. That doesn't mean they're doing it. The government is technically and physically capable of kicking in the door of every house in America and searching for drugs, but they're not doing that. You're rights/liberties are only violated when an action happens against you, not when you fear having a capability may one day lead to an action being taken against you.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The evidence we have is Snowden's claims, and the documents he has produced to corroborate his claims.

    You, on the other hand, keep insisting that unauthorized spying is surely not occurring (despite Snowden's evidence to the contrary), and your own "evidence" is your belief that the NSA are fine people who surely would not do such a thing.
    Technically, you're right. Snowden never claimed that any Americans were being targeted or spied on. He was claiming the capability to do so was there. But you're wrong in that there has been no evidence at all provided showing that any Americans have been spied on or had their Fourth Amendment protections violated. Again, produce some hard evidence and then we'll start talking about you losing your liberties.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The point is that if the NSA wants to spy on foreigners, why are they spying on Americans?

    I appreciate the difficulty they face in attempting to monitor communications activity on foreign soil. My heart bleeds for them. That does not make it okay to spy on Americans.
    The point is that you obviously don't grasp the concept that there is no proof that NSA is spying on Americans. That statement you made is complete conjecture coming from you. Don't blame Snowden for this one. Americans are not being spied on. I will maintain that stance until some evidence is provided that they are being spied on. Currently, my evidence that they are not being spied on includes courts reviewing the program and approving it, Congress reviewing the program and approving it, and the Executive Branch/Department of Justice reviewing the program and approving it. Every one of those parties has given the okay to the program and has verified it is not spying on Americans. They are the Constitutionally appointed branches of government and arbiters of what does and does not constitute violation of rights/liberties. You can't stand behind the Constitution when arguing about your rights and liberties and then throw it out the window when the process it sets up for establishing, executing, and reviewing these types of situations doesn't yield the result you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    PRISM is one part of a spectrum of programs which seem to be targeting Americans indiscriminately. How do you know what they cost?
    Again, I am talking about the PRISM program which had a cost associated with it on the evidence provided. Sure, I can claim that since NSA is part of the Department of Defense, that it costs $700+ billion a year. Or I could claim that since the US Government runs the NSA that it costs over $1 trillion a year. But what we are talking about is the PRISM program and the information that we've been given on the PRISM program (the same information you and everyone else is basing their flawed arguments on) states that the program is $20 million a year. So again, until you can show evidence that the program is more than that, it's the evidence we have to go on and the current facts that are out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    No, I am arguing that Franklin meant exactly what he said.

    Robert Meyer's argument that Franklin was trying to warn us of the need to surrender liberty for security when times get tough is not very convincing. In fact, it's ridiculous.
    HE DOESN'T MAKE THAT ARGUMENT. He was saying that Franklin wasn't speaking in absolutes, which is why he used the terms "essential" and "temporary" and didn't omit them to make an absolute like you have been trying so hard to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx
    That is precisely the problem.

    All of our communications are being monitored indiscriminately. And, if we say the wrong things in our private communications, our government may take action against us.

    Is that the kind of America in which we want to live? One where we must always be careful of what we say, even in our most private moments, lest the government inspectors take exception?

    Is it really necessary to destroy liberty in order to "protect" it?
    Now you're just getting into a paranoid panic. According to the slides, this program has been in place since 2007. Assuming that your (completely unsubstantiated) claim that all of our communications are being monitored indiscriminately, how many Americans have had any adverse action taken against them because someone didn't like what they were saying? Show me some evidence, any at all, that substantiates anything you have said here. You're being nothing but a complete bag of hot air. You make post after post without producing any evidence (or links to anyone else's evidence) of the vast majority of claims you are making and then come out with some tin-foil hat craziness like this? You're either purposely trolling to get a rise out of people or you are so seriously under-informed and paranoid that you can't even make a reasoned argument anymore.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    ^ Clearly, you don't like Snowden and regard him as a traitor. You don't believe any of his statements, you don't accept the documents he has provided to various newspapers, and you think the PowerPoint presentation was a fake. Because he did not give us one of the president's emails, he's obviously a liar.

    Fine.

    You are entitled to weigh the evidence for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.

    But, the rest of us deluded people think there may be some truth in what he says, and in the evidence he has provided. If you want to persuade us of the veracity of your position, you need to give us something other than your personal certainty that the NSA would never spy on Americans without warrants. You need to provide evidence to refute Snowden's evidence. We respect your opinions, but opinion does not outweigh evidence in a debate.

    As for Ben Franklin, I give up. You are correct. Franklin disdained liberty and urged us to surrender it to totalitarianism whenever we were gripped by fear. Freedom is just too difficult to protect, and not really worth it when you realize how safe you can be without it. Robert Meyer is a genius for finally pointing out to us, after 250 years of misunderstanding, what Franklin really meant.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 16th, 2013 at 10:16 PM.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post

    The point is that you obviously don't grasp the concept that there is no proof that NSA is spying on Americans. That statement you made is complete conjecture coming from you. Don't blame Snowden for this one. Americans are not being spied on. I will maintain that stance until some evidence is provided that they are being spied on.
    Americans can't be terrorists therefore there is no need for the NSA to spy on Americans!
    Timothy McVeigh's actions in Oklahoma City would suggest that Americans can also terrorise Americans.

    I'll assume that the NSA does not distinguish between Americans and foreigners for their task is to identify terrorists, nationality not being relevant for explosives can also be detonated by Americans as easily as they can by foreigners.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Interesting piece on HOW untied congress is on this issue. I wonder how many folks here agree with any other item that Rand Paul and Ted Cruz put out??



    Golly gee willickers I wonder why it is that Nancy Pelosi changed her tune?
    Because like most political opportunists, Nancy's zeal for reform has substantially faded now she's part of the political elite. You have become skeptical and cynical on a lot of political issues over the past few years, why do you lack even the most basic skepticism for such a massive increase in the scope and reach of the national surveillance state? Is THIS what you spent so many years risking your life fighting for? An America whose secretive "protectors" cast the widest possible net over the population... guilty til proven innocent? Obviously, a noble view of America's promise is a hope towards the best America that can be, and our own history has often fallen far short. Yet it is the America that can be, and has shown flashes of that brilliance, that we should strive for. What are you striving for?
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    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    ^ Clearly, you don't like Snowden and regard him as a traitor. You don't believe any of his statements, you don't accept the documents he has provided to various newspapers, and you think the PowerPoint presentation was a fake. Because he did not give us one of the president's emails, he's obviously a liar.

    Fine.

    You are entitled to weigh the evidence for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.

    But, the rest of us deluded people think there may be some truth in what he says, and in the evidence he has provided. If you want to persuade us of the veracity of your position, you need to give us something other than your personal certainty that the NSA would never spy on Americans without warrants. You need to provide evidence to refute Snowden's evidence. We respect your opinions, but opinion does not outweigh evidence in a debate.

    As for Ben Franklin, I give up. You are correct. Franklin disdained liberty and urged us to surrender it to totalitarianism whenever we were gripped by fear. Freedom is just too difficult to protect, and not really worth it when you realize how safe you can be without it. Robert Meyer is a genius for finally pointing out to us, after 250 years of misunderstanding, what Franklin really meant.
    Again, Snowden never said the government was spying on Americans. And I'd love to weigh the evidence. Can you put some here for me to weigh? You can't just keep saying that Snowden has given all of this evidence yet not be able to provide any of it. I have listed my evidence in my previous post which you just chose to ignore apparently.

    As for Ben Franklin, thank you for giving up [Text: Removed]. I don't know how to make something any clearer. With both of these issues, [Text: Removed].
    Last edited by opinterph; June 17th, 2013 at 01:25 PM. Reason: removed interpersonal commentary/personal insult

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Americans can't be terrorists therefore there is no need for the NSA to spy on Americans!
    Timothy McVeigh's actions in Oklahoma City would suggest that Americans can also terrorise Americans.

    I'll assume that the NSA does not distinguish between Americans and foreigners for their task is to identify terrorists, nationality not being relevant for explosives can also be detonated by Americans as easily as they can by foreigners.
    I'm sorry, but what? If an American is suspected of being a terrorist, it's the FBI that investigates them, not the NSA. And yes, nationality of who is being targeted IS important to the NSA as they are charged with targeting foreigners, not Americans.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm sorry, but what? If an American is suspected of being a terrorist, it's the FBI that investigates them, not the NSA. And yes, nationality of who is being targeted IS important to the NSA as they are charged with targeting foreigners, not Americans.
    We are all well aware of the roles of the NSA and FBI for not a few of us have been walking this earth for many years.

    The NSA monitors all who they suspect are terrorists....without exception...then the FBI step in.

    Nationality does not determine who is and who is not a terrorist as United States citizen Timothy McVeigh's terrorist actions in Oklahoma City evidenced.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    That is precisely the problem.

    All of our communications are being monitored indiscriminately. And, if we say the wrong things in our private communications, our government may take action against us.

    Is that the kind of America in which we want to live? One where we must always be careful of what we say, even in our most private moments, lest the government inspectors take exception?

    Is it really necessary to destroy liberty in order to "protect" it?
    It has nothing to do with 'saying' something wrong. But I understand the world of paranoid fear being developed, it was almost fully mature when Bush was President and it is now starting to cry again.

    Please tell me another issue that almost EVERY politician is supportive of that faces our nation? DO you really think Obama, Pelosi and Feinstein are willy nilly giving up the banner flag they hoisted to oust Bush? Nope. They simply gained knowledge that allowed them to understand no civil rights were being violated.

    But now this is getting to be a pointless argument..

    One side says nuh uhhh my country is monitoring me and i just hate it... i do ... i do...

    While the other says.... nuh uh... the protection are in place and i like them there... i do ... i do ...

    So until something else comes out, I doubt it will change a single thing. Just more nuh uhs and uh huhs.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm sorry, but what? If an American is suspected of being a terrorist, it's the FBI that investigates them, not the NSA. And yes, nationality of who is being targeted IS important to the NSA as they are charged with targeting foreigners, not Americans.
    The NSA is charged with being the ONLY agency to break codes and interpret signals. SO the FBI uses them to break these codes and interpret these signals. THE REASON is because the congressional oversight, court sanctions and court approved process is observed at the NSA and would be ridiculous to re-create at the FBI.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The NSA is charged with being the ONLY agency to break codes and interpret signals. SO the FBI uses them to break these codes and interpret these signals. THE REASON is because the congressional oversight, court sanctions and court approved process is observed at the NSA and would be ridiculous to re-create at the FBI.

    He he he Ha ha ha

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    He he he Ha ha ha
    Where are the charges against the NSA for breaking the law then? Why did Snowden avoid saying the NSA broke the law yesterday in his online chat? You do realize one of the leaked documents was a court order granting NSA the ability to collect the Verizon metadata right?

    You can sit there and claim all day that the NSA is breaking the law, but until someone is charged and found guilty, we have to presume them innocent. Or is that not part of the Constitution that you agree with so you ignore it?

    Bottom line is that there is a Constitutionally outlined procedure involving 3 branches of government for passing, executing, and adjudicating laws and the NSA has followed that process. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean the procedure wasn't followed like it should or that the outcome was unconstitutional.

    I'm anxious to see how you people react when a judge throws out/finds Constitutional the ACLU lawsuit in New York.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    I cant believe a semi-intelligent person who thinks enough of politics to even monitor this set of threads would be so naive as to think either side of the aisle wouldnt bash each other over the head with this program if there were improprieties. It is simply delusional.

    In the end the only guy getting charges and a life sentence will be Edward Snowden. There will be the same fucking morons clamoring to Free Snowden as there are to Free Manning. Both deserve to be shot.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Where are the charges against the NSA for breaking the law then? Why did Snowden avoid saying the NSA broke the law yesterday in his online chat? You do realize one of the leaked documents was a court order granting NSA the ability to collect the Verizon metadata right?

    You can sit there and claim all day that the NSA is breaking the law, but until someone is charged and found guilty, we have to presume them innocent. Or is that not part of the Constitution that you agree with so you ignore it?

    Bottom line is that there is a Constitutionally outlined procedure involving 3 branches of government for passing, executing, and adjudicating laws and the NSA has followed that process. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean the procedure wasn't followed like it should or that the outcome was unconstitutional.

    I'm anxious to see how you people react when a judge throws out/finds Constitutional the ACLU lawsuit in New York.
    No one in their right mind expects legal action against the NSA to succeed.

    No one in their right mind believes that the NSA is not snooping on the communications of United States citizens.

    Theory is wonderful to behold when it stares back at you from a piece of paper....for theories impress the idealist..then there is reality in practice teaching us that Utopia remains a distant dream...worth aiming for.
    Last edited by kallipolis; June 18th, 2013 at 08:38 AM.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post

    I cant believe
    Sure you can.

    Just pretend that you can think for your self and dispense with all those Disney fed dreams of being an American patriot blinded by your naive belief that those in power are all paragons of virtue dutifully committed to obeying the laws of the land.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Where are the charges against the NSA for breaking the law then? Why did Snowden avoid saying the NSA broke the law yesterday in his online chat? You do realize one of the leaked documents was a court order granting NSA the ability to collect the Verizon metadata right?

    You can sit there and claim all day that the NSA is breaking the law, but until someone is charged and found guilty, we have to presume them innocent. Or is that not part of the Constitution that you agree with so you ignore it?
    Government agencies should always be presumed guilty, especially ones which operate in secret.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    No one in their right mind expects legal action against the NSA to succeed.

    No one in their right mind believes that the NSA is not snooping on the communications of United States citizens.

    Theory is wonderful to behold when it stares back at you from a piece of paper....for theories impress the idealist..then there is reality in practice teaching us that Utopia remains a distant dream...worth aiming for.
    Or the ideologue.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    No one in their right mind expects legal action against the NSA to succeed.

    No one in their right mind believes that the NSA is not snooping on the communications of United States citizens.

    Theory is wonderful to behold when it stares back at you from a piece of paper....for theories impress the idealist..then there is reality in practice teaching us that Utopia remains a distant dream...worth aiming for.
    Exactly. It won't succeed because there is no breaking of the law. And I am in my right mind and I don't believe the NSA is snooping on Americans. I believe no one in their right mind actually believes the NSA is spying on all Americans.

    Yes, theory is a wonderful thing on paper. Unfortunately, that's all that your contention that the NSA is spying on Americans is sadly. You have yet to produce any evidence or proof that they are doing so, so it is still all just theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Government agencies should always be presumed guilty, especially ones which operate in secret.
    Definitely a paranoid belief there. I can see why it's hard to get a reasoned response out of you. It's apparently difficult to understand some government agencies have to operate in secret to maintain the upper hand. You can't announce to the US population (and thus the world) what it is you are doing and expect it to ever be effective again. However, to assume that because you don't know every detail about what they do, then they must be doing something illegal is preposterous and is really just a reflection of your obvious hatred of the government. If another 9/11 happens, I'm sure you'll be the first in line asking why more wasn't being done to protect us.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Exactly. It won't succeed because there is no breaking of the law. And I am in my right mind and I don't believe the NSA is snooping on Americans. I believe no one in their right mind actually believes the NSA is spying on all Americans.

    Yes, theory is a wonderful thing on paper. Unfortunately, that's all that your contention that the NSA is spying on Americans is sadly. You have yet to produce any evidence or proof that they are doing so, so it is still all just theory.


    Definitely a paranoid belief there. I can see why it's hard to get a reasoned response out of you. It's apparently difficult to understand some government agencies have to operate in secret to maintain the upper hand. You can't announce to the US population (and thus the world) what it is you are doing and expect it to ever be effective again. However, to assume that because you don't know every detail about what they do, then they must be doing something illegal is preposterous and is really just a reflection of your obvious hatred of the government. If another 9/11 happens, I'm sure you'll be the first in line asking why more wasn't being done to protect us.
    Power corrupts.

    It corrupts on the local level to the point that cops can just shoot innocent people and get no punishment other than a suspension with pay... they can cuff people and then make up the reason for the arrest.

    Power wielded in secret just corrupts all the more rapidly. So to believe that the NSA is not spying on Americans is naive delusion.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Power corrupts.

    It corrupts on the local level to the point that cops can just shoot innocent people and get no punishment other than a suspension with pay... they can cuff people and then make up the reason for the arrest.

    Power wielded in secret just corrupts all the more rapidly. So to believe that the NSA is not spying on Americans is naive delusion.
    Again, more rhetoric with absolutely nothing to back it up.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, more rhetoric with absolutely nothing to back it up.
    You're one of those who would have told President Roosevelt there was no hurry to invade Europe because there was no evidence the Nazis were really exterminating Jews or gays.

    Blind worship of country must be nice -- it doesn't require one to think.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're one of those who would have told President Roosevelt there was no hurry to invade Europe because there was no evidence the Nazis were really exterminating Jews or gays.

    Blind worship of country must be nice -- it doesn't require one to think.
    Except there was evidence in that case. Blind commitment to paranoia and hatred of the government obviously doesn't require one to think logically.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    I recognize that NSA cannot at any one moment spy on American citizens. They can't do it physically and they can't do it legally.

    I also recognize they are collecting, indexing and cross-referencing everything they can get their hands on. Present reports suggest the information is kept for 5 years. I call that spying; you may not. If you steal mail and don't open it for 4 years you have spied. maybe not effectively, but you have spied.

    I foresee many dangerous consequences here. See my post #129. Extend it: what if in legitimately investigating A for a national security inquiry they investigate his contacts X, Y, and Z - as good investigative protocol says they must. Most investigations, as in a background check, will the investigate X, Y, and Z's acquaintances, say, M, N, and O. What then if Y and N have together committed felony murder? Complicate the picture by introducing a foreign national.

    I think Y and N will be charged - for matters having nothing to do with national security. And based upon evidence "not gathered - !!! - through spying.

    Can you honestly say they haven't been spied upon? I cannot.

    ***

    I also don't buy the story that we only monitor "foreign" transmissions, including phone calls. Given today's interlinked communications network a communication does not necessarily stay within the US. Once the connection leaves the US, goes to a foreign country, and comes back it is no longer a "domestic" communication. It is subject to full monitoring. And lord only know how satellite relays obscure the jurisdictional quagmire.

    The staunch chest-thumping defenders do so without much thought.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    People, an FBI person told the country they have all our email and phone conversations recorded -- all of them. They pretend they haven't "collected" it because they allegedly don't look.

    Everything you've said online or on the phone since Bush took office is in their "book". The only question is whether they "take it off the shelf".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Power corrupts.

    It corrupts on the local level to the point that cops can just shoot innocent people and get no punishment other than a suspension with pay... they can cuff people and then make up the reason for the arrest.

    Power wielded in secret just corrupts all the more rapidly. So to believe that the NSA is not spying on Americans is naive delusion.
    Yes, "power corrupts, and absolute power..."

    I am not convinced that the NSA is scrutinizing and reading contents of stuff right now - but the slope from where things currently stand is very slippery indeed.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I recognize that NSA cannot at any one moment spy on American citizens. They can't do it physically and they can't do it legally.

    I also recognize they are collecting, indexing and cross-referencing everything they can get their hands on. Present reports suggest the information is kept for 5 years. I call that spying; you may not. If you steal mail and don't open it for 4 years you have spied. maybe not effectively, but you have spied.

    I foresee many dangerous consequences here. See my post #129. Extend it: what if in legitimately investigating A for a national security inquiry they investigate his contacts X, Y, and Z - as good investigative protocol says they must. Most investigations, as in a background check, will the investigate X, Y, and Z's acquaintances, say, M, N, and O. What then if Y and N have together committed felony murder? Complicate the picture by introducing a foreign national.

    I think Y and N will be charged - for matters having nothing to do with national security. And based upon evidence "not gathered - !!! - through spying.

    Can you honestly say they haven't been spied upon? I cannot.
    With a piece of mail, the contents of the mail have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Anything written on the outside of the envelope does not. So if someone keeps a piece of your mail for 4 years and doesn't open it, then they are not spying on you. In fact, unless they opened your mailbox and took it out, they haven't even committed a crime.

    Now with your scenario you gave, if all of those parties are foreigners outside of the country, then anything gathered on them could be used for any purpose. If any of those parties are US citizens or are in the country legally, then you have to have a court order to collect any information involving those parties. Those court orders specify what information can be collected. If the fact that two of those people committed murder is included in the scope of that information, then it could be used in court. If it doesn't fall in the scope of that court order, it can't be used regardless of whether it points to a crime or not. So the NSA gains nothing from spying on Americans anyway because nothing they get would be admissible in court without a valid court order/warrant covering it.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I also don't buy the story that we only monitor "foreign" transmissions, including phone calls. Given today's interlinked communications network a communication does not necessarily stay within the US. Once the connection leaves the US, goes to a foreign country, and comes back it is no longer a "domestic" communication. It is subject to full monitoring. And lord only know how satellite relays obscure the jurisdictional quagmire.

    The staunch chest-thumping defenders do so without much thought.
    I give this plenty of thought and have done MUCH research. I would suggest everyone here start out by reading the FISA and the FAAs. The reason for the FAAs was because foreigners were using networks that would pass the messages through servers/switches in the US but both parties would be in a foreign country. The current definition of foreign communications involves the parties on that communication and their locations, not the location of the wire that carries it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    People, an FBI person told the country they have all our email and phone conversations recorded -- all of them. They pretend they haven't "collected" it because they allegedly don't look.

    Everything you've said online or on the phone since Bush took office is in their "book". The only question is whether they "take it off the shelf".
    What FBI person said that? Can you link the transcript or the news article or anything?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    What FBI person said that? Can you link the transcript or the news article or anything?
    Opinterph posted it in a different thread.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Except there was evidence in that case. Blind commitment to paranoia and hatred of the government obviously doesn't require one to think logically.
    Those who question government activities clearly are not patriots......"love America...or leave it..." a familiar refrain during the Vietnam war...when questioning the war was akin to treason.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Or the ideologue.
    ...blinded by their "patriotic" allegiance...so blinded that they can't distinguish truth from fiction when the "government" speaks.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    ....
    Now with your scenario you gave, if all of those parties are foreigners outside of the country, then anything gathered on them could be used for any purpose. If any of those parties are US citizens or are in the country legally, then you have to have a court order to collect any information involving those parties. Those court orders specify what information can be collected. If the fact that two of those people committed murder is included in the scope of that information, then it could be used in court. If it doesn't fall in the scope of that court order, it can't be used regardless of whether it points to a crime or not. So the NSA gains nothing from spying on Americans anyway because nothing they get would be admissible in court without a valid court order/warrant covering it.
    We differ on the stringency of the legal process and the breadth of the "material" accumulated.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rocess-secrecy
    (Section: "The emptiness of "oversight" from the secret Fisa [sic] court)
    (Article is both an excellent read and overview)

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    We differ on the stringency of the legal process and the breadth of the "material" accumulated.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rocess-secrecy
    (Section: "The emptiness of "oversight" from the secret Fisa [sic] court)
    (Article is both an excellent read and overview)
    So there are laws and regulations in place to prevent spying on Americans. Those are on the books. You're basing your argument on the fact that "well it's too easy to break the law." Snowden has not provided any evidence whatsoever he could access any of this information. He's basically saying it and then saying "I know I don't have any proof, but trust me." We're holding this guy, who has broken the law, up on this pedestal and we're accusing everyone else of being the criminals.

    The bottom line is that there are laws in place that keep the government from spying on Americans. If someone breaks that law and spies on Americans, then they are a criminal and should be held accountable. These laws are no easier to break than any other law out there. As I've said before, once proof starts coming out that they are actually spying on Americans, then I will be outraged. Until then, all we have is part of a PowerPoint presentation (why is no one asking the Guardian what's on the other 37 pages?) and the word of a person who is a proven liar. He was already breaking the law releasing this information, so why didn't he provide a sample of all of these minotred calls that he had all of this access to?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    @ tigerfan482: As I said, we differ.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So there are laws and regulations in place to prevent spying on Americans. Those are on the books. You're basing your argument on the fact that "well it's too easy to break the law." Snowden has not provided any evidence whatsoever he could access any of this information. He's basically saying it and then saying "I know I don't have any proof, but trust me." We're holding this guy, who has broken the law, up on this pedestal and we're accusing everyone else of being the criminals.

    The bottom line is that there are laws in place that keep the government from spying on Americans. If someone breaks that law and spies on Americans, then they are a criminal and should be held accountable. These laws are no easier to break than any other law out there. As I've said before, once proof starts coming out that they are actually spying on Americans, then I will be outraged. Until then, all we have is part of a PowerPoint presentation (why is no one asking the Guardian what's on the other 37 pages?) and the word of a person who is a proven liar. He was already breaking the law releasing this information, so why didn't he provide a sample of all of these minotred calls that he had all of this access to?
    No, what's on the books is a law that says the government can spy on Americans so long as it means they catch some foreigners while they're at it.

    BTW, when you work in secret for a secret agency, where things are approved by secret "courts" working with secret interpretations of laws, then it's incredibly easier to break a law -- because no one even knows you're engaging in activities where there are laws.

    And the proof that they're spying on Americans has been posted. Congress fell all over itself rushing to pass a law that made the illegal Bush warrantless wiretaps legit.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, what's on the books is a law that says the government can spy on Americans so long as it means they catch some foreigners while they're at it.
    Not true in the least. Please go read the FISA, FAAs, and the Patriot Act. The government cannot spy on Americans with a warrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, when you work in secret for a secret agency, where things are approved by secret "courts" working with secret interpretations of laws, then it's incredibly easier to break a law -- because no one even knows you're engaging in activities where there are laws.
    The FISA court is still staffed by federal judges who have legal standing as part of the judiciary. It was set up specifically to allow judges to render Constitutional decisions on programs that have to remain secret to protect the efficacy of the programs. The court was legally setup in 1978 and the judges that sit on it are appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. It is a completely legal court, made up of federal judges and is tasked with rendering decisions on classified situations. It makes it no easier to break the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And the proof that they're spying on Americans has been posted. Congress fell all over itself rushing to pass a law that made the illegal Bush warrantless wiretaps legit.
    No it hasn't And if it has, repost it. I've been asking for proof in numerous threads and I either get nothing or I get a link to an opinion article. Please, repost the proof for all to see.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Not true in the least. Please go read the FISA, FAAs, and the Patriot Act. The government cannot spy on Americans with a warrant.


    The FISA court is still staffed by federal judges who have legal standing as part of the judiciary. It was set up specifically to allow judges to render Constitutional decisions on programs that have to remain secret to protect the efficacy of the programs. The court was legally setup in 1978 and the judges that sit on it are appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. It is a completely legal court, made up of federal judges and is tasked with rendering decisions on classified situations. It makes it no easier to break the law.


    No it hasn't And if it has, repost it. I've been asking for proof in numerous threads and I either get nothing or I get a link to an opinion article. Please, repost the proof for all to see.
    You're being deceptive and duplicitous: you've posted in the thread where the evidence was given. Representatives of the FBI and NSA have flat out said that they are spying on Americans and that the law authorizes them to do so.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    The secret order concerning minimization of surveillance without a warrant of US persons:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...dures-document

    as Exhibit B to the main article:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ithout-warrant .

    This just became available so I haven't digested it yet.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're being deceptive and duplicitous: you've posted in the thread where the evidence was given. Representatives of the FBI and NSA have flat out said that they are spying on Americans and that the law authorizes them to do so.
    I have not done any such thing. I have specifically said there is no evidence the US is spying on US persons. And representatives from the NSA have specifically said they DO NOT spy on Americans. The FBI may have said they use systems to perform surveillance on Americans, but that is with a warrant and they are authorized to do so as they ARE the domestic law enforcement body.

    Again, so you don't get confused

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The secret order concerning minimization of surveillance without a warrant of US persons:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...dures-document

    as Exhibit B to the main article:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ithout-warrant .

    This just became available so I haven't digested it yet.
    Definitely read through it then. You will see that they show a) the NSA is tasked only to monitor communications of foreign individuals in foreign countries and b) if, in the course of doing this they unintentionally get the communications of an American citizen (such as they're monitoring a terrorist and they call an American), they have very strict procedures on how to destroy such information or process it per current law.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    ^
    You should read what you reference:
    Top secret documents submitted to the court that oversees surveillance by US intelligence agencies show the judges have signed off on broad orders which allow the NSA to make use of information "inadvertently" collected from domestic US communications without a warrant.
    (emphasis added)

    See? They can can use information from domestic sources and they don't need a warrant to get it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ^
    You should read what you reference:

    (emphasis added)

    See? They can can use information from domestic sources and they don't need a warrant to get it.
    First off, I didn't reference anything. Also, please read the actual documents and not the Guardian's article (assuming you don't actually need someone else to read it for you and explain it to you.) The documents clearly spell out that the NSA can only target foreigners not in the United States. The information that the article is referring to in the quote is communication intercepted while monitoring or "spying" on foreigners overseas (i.e. not domestic communications.) If, while collecting on foreign targets, they determine that any of the communications is to/from or regarding a US citizen, then they are required to destroy the information unless the information meets a set of exceptions (defined by law), at which point they are required to turn the information over to law enforcement/Department of Justice for proper processing. So, no, they are not spying on Americans.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    A very balanced article that debunks both aspects of tin foil shrieking headlines. The author makes the most important point in the quote below. Modern privacy mixing with technology is definitely a conversation worth having but not starting with a basis of knowledge that is entirely inconsistent and incorrect.

    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    A very balanced article that debunks both aspects of tin foil shrieking headlines. The author makes the most important point in the quote below. Modern privacy mixing with technology is definitely a conversation worth having but not starting with a basis of knowledge that is entirely inconsistent and incorrect.
    That's interesting. More and more it seems that not only is the NSA using terminology in unique ways in order to hide what it's doing, but what they're really doing is being inflated because media people don't understand technical terms. So the obfuscation feeds off itself, ignorance supplementing deception.

    Maybe somewhere in the middle is the truth -- probably that the NSA is spying on Americans every time they get "inadvertent" data that requires no warrant, but aren't going to the effort of listening to all of us.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's interesting. More and more it seems that not only is the NSA using terminology in unique ways in order to hide what it's doing, but what they're really doing is being inflated because media people don't understand technical terms. So the obfuscation feeds off itself, ignorance supplementing deception.

    Maybe somewhere in the middle is the truth -- probably that the NSA is spying on Americans every time they get "inadvertent" data that requires no warrant, but aren't going to the effort of listening to all of us.
    Again, how about reading the supporting material instead of quoting an opinionated article. If you want to know why they keep so much secret, look how people react when they find out information they can't understand. They take no time to research, trust blindly in those that tell them what they want to hear, and make no effort to find out the ACTUAL truth for themselves. Since we're living in your fantasy world, I'd rather have the government spying on my every move with a 1% chance of stopping a terrorist attack or preventing some state actor from stealing secrets and sabotaging various aspects of our country than having you sitting behind your keyboard, armed with the knowledge of everything the government does, doing nothing but complaining about whatever the paranoid delusion of the day is. At least in the first scenario we have a 1% chance of some sort of success.

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