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Thread: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

      
   
  1. #101
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22883078

    I quote

    The US electronic spying chief has said massive surveillance programmes newly revealed by an ex-intelligence worker had disrupted dozens of terror plots.

    In a US Senate hearing, National Security Agency (NSA) Director Keith Alexander defended the internet and telephone data snooping programmes.


    Unquote

    That the director of the NSA admits to snooping on Americans confirms that conspiratorial theories are redundant.
    I'm sorry, where in that quote did he say they were targeting Americans? I missed that. In fact, later on in that quoted article:

    Intelligence officials have insisted agents do not listen in on Americans' telephone conversations. And they maintain the internet communications surveillance programme, reportedly code-named Prism, targeted only non-Americans located outside of the US.
    Sounds to me like what the NSA Director was actually saying was that they used this program to target non-Americans as their responsibilities dictate and they disrupted terrorist plots. It seems the targeting Americans part was added in by your own thought process. Don't feel bad though, a lot of people seem to be doing that.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Then the CIA and NSA were insane to employ him were his intelligence that lacking - as you have implied.
    Didn't say his intelligence was lacking, simply that he embellishes known facts, so what is he adding to his story?
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    It seems the targeting Americans part was added in by your own thought process. Don't feel bad though, a lot of people seem to be doing that.
    It is catching. Especially with those desperate to find something to gripe about against America.
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    Re: Manning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Thank you, kallipolis. Why the hell should we take at face value what the government says about these programs when the truth is that it was ordinary people who did more to stop terrorists? When are we going to ell em to go to hell and demand our leaders remember they work for us, not the other way around? It's true the way of the world is spying on the enemy. But when did WE become the enemy? When did it become okay that surrendering freedom to protect it made any kind of common sense? When some say" I have done nothing wrong, so I have nothing to fear, so why should any other person without guilt"?.... that's the ticket those who love power want to cash in, to institutionalize surveillance to the point no one can be free... to set the stage for control that will be damned near impossible to fight against. Fuck the power elites now who dismiss concerns about the scope and intent of the surveillance potential, we still have time to stop this. This sounds alarmist, but we've been kept in the dark for a long time and the programs only seem to be growing exponentially. When will it be time for skepticism and demand for accountability and respect for individual liberties before the question is moot and no one would dare risk the wrath of the watchers? Orwell may have just been off by a few decades.
    THANK YOU for a voice of REASON!!!

    I cannot BELIEVE that ANYONE WITH THE ABILITY TO THINK is actually OK with this...

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

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    Re: Manning.

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    THANK YOU for a voice of REASON!!!

    I cannot BELIEVE that ANYONE WITH THE ABILITY TO THINK is actually OK with this...

    OK with what? NSA using American companies to accomplish its mission of finding out what foreigners are doing? I'm totally fine with that.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    ^ QFT on the SWERVE and SAUSY posts.

    What's the deal with such a massive complex in Utah? DATA, NOWADAYS, is incredibly compact. If only logs are being kept, even for years, wouldn't that all fit on a modern mainframe perhaps the size of a bathroom? ("Is it bigger than a bread box?") The place in Utah is more massive than a large fleet of 53-foot semi trailers. the only reason for something so massive, with today's technology, would be to allow enough storage to keep track of everything...to be used and mined at the pure whim of whoever may be in power at the time.

    I brought up Pol Pot, and what could happen if that type of person were to reach power, but in 2012 WE DID have a candidate of that type in the Primaries who actually won some states: Rick Santorum.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    ^ QFT on the SWERVE and SAUSY posts.

    What's the deal with such a massive complex in Utah? DATA, NOWADAYS, is incredibly compact. If only logs are being kept, even for years, wouldn't that all fit on a modern mainframe perhaps the size of a bathroom? ("Is it bigger than a bread box?") The place in Utah is more massive than a large fleet of 53-foot semi trailers. the only reason for something so massive, with today's technology, would be to allow enough storage to keep track of everything...to be used and mined at the pure whim of whoever may be in power at the time.

    I brought up Pol Pot, and what could happen if that type of person were to reach power, but in 2012 WE DID have a candidate of that type in the Primaries who actually won some states: Rick Santorum.
    Do you know anything about high performance computing? Do you know anything about computing in general? What data has become more compact over the years? Do your computers still come with a 40 megabyte hard drive? Do video games still come in 8-bit cartridges? Are you still operating with only 64K of RAM and an 8086 processor? Your argument is incredibly flawed. No one said the NSA doesn't keep data. They have every right and responsibility to monitor, collect, process, etc. foreign communications. You're taking the NSA's entire mission and cramming it down into this incredibly narrow set of facts (more specifically, the fact that in one instance they retain only metadata information in the case of the Verizon warrant.) Yes, they do need a big data facility to store and process the data they need to accomplish their mission - the 99.9% that involves storing and processing data of foreign adversaries and the 0.1% that involves storing metadata log files from Verizon.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Do you know anything about high performance computing? …

    Yes, they do need a big data facility to store and process the data they need to accomplish their mission - the 99.9% that involves storing and processing data of foreign adversaries and the 0.1% that involves storing metadata log files from Verizon.
    My personal computer can process several billion instructions per second. Back in 2001 CNN reported that one Cray Triton Supercomputer at the NSA supercomputer center could handle 64 billion instructions per second. The new NSA facility in Utah will include the new Titan Supercomputer, which can process 20,000 trillion instructions per second.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    My personal computer can process several billion instructions per second. Back in 2001 CNN reported that one Cray Triton Supercomputer at the NSA supercomputer center could handle 64 billion instructions per second. The new NSA facility in Utah will include the new Titan Supercomputer, which can process 20,000 trillion instructions per second.
    And that's plenty of processing power.

    Given today's storage capacity, the entire contents of the Library of Congress can fit in the volume of a dresser drawer. The new facilities will have the space to store every email and phone conversation in the world for a number of years.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    BTW, good authority tells us that the response to all this that "I've got nothing to hide" is utter foolishness. The authority I have in mind is quoted in this article:

    http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/06...-surveillance/

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    My personal computer can process several billion instructions per second. Back in 2001 CNN reported that one Cray Triton Supercomputer at the NSA supercomputer center could handle 64 billion instructions per second. The new NSA facility in Utah will include the new Titan Supercomputer, which can process 20,000 trillion instructions per second.
    And do you know how much processing is required to break encryption? Take the standard 256-bit AES encryption scheme as a basis. Part of the NSA's charter mission is to deal in cryptography. And where do you get the information that the NSA's new facility will contain the Titan Supercomputer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And that's plenty of processing power.

    Given today's storage capacity, the entire contents of the Library of Congress can fit in the volume of a dresser drawer. The new facilities will have the space to store every email and phone conversation in the world for a number of years.
    http://removeandreplace.com/2013/03/...-every-minute/
    The world creates an unbelievable amount of data every day. When the NSA's mission is to target the other 94.7% of the world's population and be able to track terrorist attacks and communications (which can span a number of years in planning stages) as well as gather information on other state actors, then they are going to need a large storage and processing facility in order to do these tasks. Also, keep in mind that what is being put out there in that data center is just conjecture. Every article I have read has said something like "experts say there could be up to 1 yottabyte of storage in the new facility" which isn't very definitive and could span from no storage at all up to 1 yottabyte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, good authority tells us that the response to all this that "I've got nothing to hide" is utter foolishness. The authority I have in mind is quoted in this article:

    http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/06...-surveillance/
    Again the "I've Got Nothing to Hide" argument is only applicable if the NSA were actually shown to be spying on Americans, which hasn't happened yet.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again the "I've Got Nothing to Hide" argument is only applicable if the NSA were actually shown to be spying on Americans, which hasn't happened yet.
    Those who operate in secrecy are far less likely to follow the rules than those who operate in the open. Given that law enforcement which operates in the open in the US blatantly ignores the rules at a whim, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that those at the NSA give a shit at all about the rules.

    So when one of their own says we're being spied on, the sensible thing to believe is that he's correct, and that we're being spied on.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #113
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm sorry, where in that quote did he say they were targeting Americans? I missed that. In fact, later on in that quoted article:



    Sounds to me like what the NSA Director was actually saying was that they used this program to target non-Americans as their responsibilities dictate and they disrupted terrorist plots. It seems the targeting Americans part was added in by your own thought process. Don't feel bad though, a lot of people seem to be doing that.
    I presume that you do not spend too much time reading the newspapers or other media outlets on the Internet for the issue is not that the NSA does not snoop on United States citizens rather that it does and that this fact of life is not being disputed. I'll repeat an earlier post that you may be better informed:

    If only the huge investments made in hardware and man hours spent monitoring the Internet and telecommunications provided value.

    All of the most recent terrorist attempts on the United States have been confronted by civilians without any association to security agencies or the police service.

    The 'underpants' bomber who attempted to hijack an aircraft on Christmas Day 2009 was detected by another passenger whose rapid and successful intervention disarmed the terrorist saving the lives of all on board the plane.

    The Times Square bomber was identified by local street vendors noticing the strange behaviour of the perpetrator.

    Tamerlan's brother Dzokhar evaded capture despite virtual martial law being declared in Boston and a massive man hunt involving swat teams, helicopters and armoured vehicles. The terrorist was arrested because a suspicious man went out to check the tarpaulin of his boat parked in his backyard which a neighbour had reported being loose where he discovered the terrorist hiding telephoning the police to report the injured man's whereabouts.

    So much for hideously expensive snooping by the NSA.
    Last edited by kallipolis; June 14th, 2013 at 12:25 PM.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    This article is worth the time reading if only to become aware of the NSAs capacity to spy on the citizens of the United States:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...-data-facility

    I quote:

    William Binney, a mathematician who worked at the NSA for almost 40 years and helped automate its worldwide eavesdropping, said Utah's computers could store data at the rate of 20 terabytes – the equivalent of the Library of Congress – per minute. "Technically it's not that complicated. You just need to work out an indexing scheme to order it."

    Binney, who left the agency in 2001 and blew the whistle on its domestic spying, said the centre could absorb and store data for "hundreds of years" and allow agencies such as the FBI to retroactively use the information.


    Unquote

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I presume that you do not spend too much time reading the newspapers or other media outlets on the Internet for the issue is not that the NSA does not snoop on United States citizens rather that it does and that this fact of life is not being disputed. I'll repeat an earlier post that you may be better informed:

    If only the huge investments made in hardware and man hours spent monitoring the Internet and telecommunications provided value.

    All of the most recent terrorist attempts on the United States have been confronted by civilians without any association to security agencies or the police service.

    The 'underpants' bomber who attempted to hijack an aircraft on Christmas Day 2009 was detected by another passenger whose rapid and successful intervention disarmed the terrorist saving the lives of all on board the plane.

    The Times Square bomber was identified by local street vendors noticing the strange behaviour of the perpetrator.

    Tamerlan's brother Dzokhar evaded capture despite virtual martial law being declared in Boston and a massive man hunt involving swat teams, helicopters and armoured vehicles. The terrorist was arrested because a suspicious man went out to check the tarpaulin of his boat parked in his backyard which a neighbour had reported being loose where he discovered the terrorist hiding telephoning the police to report the injured man's whereabouts.

    So much for hideously expensive snooping by the NSA.
    Go on and tell me about the non-ignorant terrorist who have been stopped. Oh yeah it is classified. Dang it.

    What I wonder, and everyone is certainly entitled to an opinion, but I wonder why so many foreigners are upset about america purportedly illegally spying on America? When Americans don't care.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Go on and tell me about the non-ignorant terrorist who have been stopped. Oh yeah it is classified. Dang it.

    What I wonder, and everyone is certainly entitled to an opinion, but I wonder why so many foreigners are upset about america purportedly illegally spying on America? When Americans don't care.
    So much money being spent snooping on Americans and so little to show for it.

    Bravo for the man in the street who delivers a better return on authentic patriotism without needing to eavesdrop.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Those wishing to leave less of a trail or memory on the internet should review

    Stealth: Leaving Less on the Internet
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...=1#post8934983

    which names alternate providers.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis
    I presume that you do not spend too much time reading the newspapers or other media outlets on the Internet for the issue is not that the NSA does not snoop on United States citizens rather that it does and that this fact of life is not being disputed. I'll repeat an earlier post that you may be better informed:

    If only the huge investments made in hardware and man hours spent monitoring the Internet and telecommunications provided value.

    All of the most recent terrorist attempts on the United States have been confronted by civilians without any association to security agencies or the police service.

    The 'underpants' bomber who attempted to hijack an aircraft on Christmas Day 2009 was detected by another passenger whose rapid and successful intervention disarmed the terrorist saving the lives of all on board the plane.

    The Times Square bomber was identified by local street vendors noticing the strange behaviour of the perpetrator.

    Tamerlan's brother Dzokhar evaded capture despite virtual martial law being declared in Boston and a massive man hunt involving swat teams, helicopters and armoured vehicles. The terrorist was arrested because a suspicious man went out to check the tarpaulin of his boat parked in his backyard which a neighbour had reported being loose where he discovered the terrorist hiding telephoning the police to report the injured man's whereabouts.

    So much for hideously expensive snooping by the NSA.
    And I presume you don't spend too much time looking at facts versus opinion. As I have stated before, there are two sets of facts in front of us in the form of some kind of proof (a partial classified briefing on the PRISM program and a copy of a warrant for Verizon). None of that shows any kind of support for your claim that the American government is "snooping" on American citizens. Everything else you read about snooping on Americans, listening in to every phone call, etc. has had absolutely no proof provided and is all conjecture by people writing these stories. Even Snowden himself provided no proof to substantiate half of the claims he made and easily verifiable things like his yearly salary proved to be greatly exaggerated.

    And you have no idea what value intelligence has provided. The details of these programs are classified, and for good reason. These things don't work if you go and announce to the world what you are doing. Thus, the successes of these programs are also not announced. Yes, those plots you mentioned were stopped by various citizens, which is why ONE of the tools the government employs is encouraging people to say something if they see something. This isn't an either/or scenario. The government will use what tools it has available to it to fulfill its mission of providing for the common defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This article is worth the time reading if only to become aware of the NSAs capacity to spy on the citizens of the United States:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...-data-facility

    I quote:

    William Binney, a mathematician who worked at the NSA for almost 40 years and helped automate its worldwide eavesdropping, said Utah's computers could store data at the rate of 20 terabytes – the equivalent of the Library of Congress – per minute. "Technically it's not that complicated. You just need to work out an indexing scheme to order it."

    Binney, who left the agency in 2001 and blew the whistle on its domestic spying, said the centre could absorb and store data for "hundreds of years" and allow agencies such as the FBI to retroactively use the information.


    Unquote
    That article is nothing but a bunch of people casting conjecture on what that facility could possibly be used for. Go back and count the number of times someone used the word "could" or the phrase "it could possibly be". There are very little facts and nothing to support any claims that NSA is spying on Americans. Try again.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Further to kallipolis' post #114:

    The Hill quotes a Representative that what has been disclosed so far is only "the tip of the iceberg."

    The federal surveillance programs revealed in media reports are just "the tip of the iceberg," a House Democrat said Wednesday.

    Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif.) said lawmakers learned "significantly more" about the spy programs at the National Security Agency (NSA) during a briefing on Tuesday with counterterrorism officials.

    "What we learned in there," Sanchez said, "is significantly more than what is out in the media today."
    http://thehill.com/video/house/30504...#ixzz2WEN2OgVW

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    That article is nothing but a bunch of people casting conjecture on what that facility could possibly be used for. Go back and count the number of times someone used the word "could" or the phrase "it could possibly be". There are very little facts and nothing to support any claims that NSA is spying on Americans. Try again.
    You're playing language games. "Could", used by such a person in such a context, means "is capable of". The way it's used indicates the belief that that's exactly what is being done.

    And since then the capacity has only expanded.

    On top of that, we know that under G W Bush the government was spying on Americans. In every other aspect, Obama has doubled down on Bush intrusiveness -- so to believe that in this one area Obama is uniquely clean is irrational.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Further to kallipolis' post #114:

    The Hill quotes a Representative that what has been disclosed so far is only "the tip of the iceberg."



    http://thehill.com/video/house/30504...#ixzz2WEN2OgVW
    And many in Congress have defended the program and say it doesn't involve spying on Americans. Besides, being the "tip of the iceberg" and there being "significantly more" means that there is much more to the program than the small snippets of what is being published. I also did not see in there where Rep. Sanchez said that she verified that Americans were being spied on. In fact, she didn't mention that at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're playing language games. "Could", used by such a person in such a context, means "is capable of". The way it's used indicates the belief that that's exactly what is being done.

    And since then the capacity has only expanded.

    On top of that, we know that under G W Bush the government was spying on Americans. In every other aspect, Obama has doubled down on Bush intrusiveness -- so to believe that in this one area Obama is uniquely clean is irrational.
    No, "is capable of" means "is capable of". "Could" means that the possibility exists. It "could" be used to spy on all Americans or it "could" be used to compile the largest database of recipes in the world. If I were to say "all gun owners could go into an elementary school and kill a bunch of children", I mean that the possibility is there that it could happen, not that every gun owner is capable of doing such an act.

    And yes, capacity has expanded because the amount of data throughout the world grows daily and at a faster rate. Data centers like this are built to handle future requirements. Sure I can build a data center that will hold the data I have in hand today, but it will be of no use to me tomorrow when I have more data I need to store and process.

    I just don't understand where all of the paranoia here comes from. What has the government done to the people on here who for some reason think that they exist solely to target American citizens instead of go after the bad guy?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again the "I've Got Nothing to Hide" argument is only applicable if the NSA were actually shown to be spying on Americans, which hasn't happened...YET.
    Modified for possible truth.

    Or has it?

    They're not about to tell.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Modified for possible truth.

    Or has it?

    They're not about to tell.
    Well you have yourself a "news" article similar to the ones being quoted in here. Go publish that. You could win a Pulitzer.

    But I tell you what. I'll join in your outrage if your conjecture is backed up with proof.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    where do you get the information that the NSA's new facility will contain the Titan Supercomputer?
    I used the word “included,” which is to suggest that it will be part of the NSA network of facilities. I assume Titan will remain housed in Tennessee. With respect to the usage of Titan to process data from the Utah facility, I’m not sure that is something the government has admitted – because the program is classified. Other persons familiar with NSA have made that suggestion, which may include James Bamford who authored the article in Wired to which I linked in a separate thread. Mr. Bamford also wrote the book, The Shadow Factory: The NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America. If he doesn't make that affirmation directly, he does state that the Oak Ridge National Laboratory [ORNL] has been an important part of the NSA’s spy network since 2004.

    In October the NSA will begin data-mining at a $2 billion Utah Data centre, with help in Tennessee from the Titan Supercomputer — reportedly the most powerful computer the world has ever known.

    Business Insider Australia
    ORNL's classified computing program (knoxnews.com)

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I used the word “included,” which is to suggest that it will be part of the NSA network of facilities. I assume Titan will remain housed in Tennessee. With respect to the usage of Titan to process data from the Utah facility, I’m not sure that is something the government has admitted – because the program is classified. Other persons familiar with NSA have made that suggestion, which may include James Bamford who authored the article in Wired to which I linked in a separate thread. Mr. Bamford also wrote the book, The Shadow Factory: The NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America. If he doesn't make that affirmation directly, he does state that the Oak Ridge National Laboratory [ORNL] has been an important part of the NSA’s spy network since 2004.
    James Bamford is not an authority on NSA. While his first book was interesting and contained numerous facts he obtained from FOIA requests, his subsequent books and articles get more and more paranoid and have less and less evidence and fact to back them up. Here's the information I found on Titan:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(supercomputer)

    Additionally, a lot of the work done by ORNL (and other National Laboratories) does involve classified work dealing with cryptography, nuclear weapons, etc. but it's all in a research setting and not an operational setting due to the amount of work that is being done by each lab and the sharing of the equipment that goes on regularly.

    Also, that article you quoted, in the first sentence, tells me it's going to be full of inaccuracies, half truths, and biased information. Whenever an article starts out containing "For years Americans’ right to privacy, as granted by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, has been hijacked by the surveillance state", that tells me it's an opinion piece that they're going to try and find quotes that support their view instead of showing all information.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    … a lot of the work done by ORNL (and other National Laboratories) does involve classified work dealing with cryptography, nuclear weapons, etc. but it's all in a research setting and not an operational setting due to the amount of work that is being done by each lab and the sharing of the equipment that goes on regularly.
    Your impression may be correct. Titan definitely seems intended as a shared processor; however, I don’t think the announced classified purposes, such as code breaking, necessarily limit its actual uses. As Frank Munger’s article relates …

    [Thomas Zacharia, ORNL's deputy lab director for science and technology] acknowledged, as he and other lab officials have done before, that ORNL does have a classified computing program and that the lab does work for the so-called three-letter agencies that form the intelligence community. He declined to specifically confirm work for the NSA.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Also, that article you quoted, in the first sentence, tells me it's going to be full of inaccuracies, half truths, and biased information. Whenever an article starts out containing "For years Americans’ right to privacy, as granted by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, has been hijacked by the surveillance state", that tells me it's an opinion piece that they're going to try and find quotes that support their view instead of showing all information.
    That's an interesting conjecture. Given that a lot of people who are serious experts in things will start an argument that way in order to get people's attention, I consider it worth less than the lead in the first .22 round fired today.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Well you have yourself a "news" article similar to the ones being quoted in here. Go publish that. You could win a Pulitzer.

    But I tell you what. I'll join in your outrage if your conjecture is backed up with proof.
    That is the most reasonable thing I have read about concerning this case. IF proof is provided that we are spying on Americans then i will be just as outraged. I have a different perspective on this and feel that their are folks ready and willing to believe anything about the government and foreigners who are always desperate for something to hold up to America and say "SEE!!! SEE!!!"

    I have yet to see proof. The ravings of a man who couldn't get his salary correct so how the fuck does he have his facts correct and the rantings of folks normally considered tin foil hatters.
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    Okay, we know we have telephone data mining the Prism, which I will analogize to internet traffic and content mining. Presumably Prism's product is "locked away" until national concerns arise.

    In slide made public by the newspapers, NSA analysts were encouraged to use data coming from both Prism and from the fiber-optic cables.

    Prism, as its name suggests, helps narrow and focus the stream. If eavesdroppers spot a suspicious email among the torrent of data pouring into the United States, analysts can use information from Internet companies to pinpoint the user.

    With Prism, the government gets a user's entire email inbox. Every email, including contacts with American citizens, becomes government property.

    Once the NSA has an inbox, it can search its huge archives for information about everyone with whom the target communicated. All those people can be investigated, too.
    ....
    In that way, Prism helps justify specific, potentially personal searches. But it's the broader operation on the Internet fiber optics cables that actually captures the data, experts agree.
    CONTINUATION OF POST 129

    "I'm much more frightened and concerned about real-time monitoring on the Internet backbone," said Wolf Ruzicka, CEO of EastBanc Technologies, a Washington software company. "I cannot think of anything, outside of a face-to-face conversation, that they could not have access to."

    One unanswered question, according to a former technology executive at one of the companies involved, is whether the government can use the data from Prism to work backward. [e.s.]
    http://news.yahoo.com/secret-prism-s...250cm9s;_ylv=3

    It is the "working backward" part that gives me concern.

    We know from Maryland vs. King that a current DNA swab is reasonable upon apprehension and without warrant. We also know that such DNA can be used to charge for a past criminal act.

    What happens if a legitimate national security inquiry - lets say with warrant - uncovers evidence of a current or past criminal activity, say, tax evasion, conspiracy to murder, kidnapping, bank robbery, etc.?

    What happens if those prior acts are leveraged to secure co-operation on the national security inquiry?

    Can charges on the other acts be sustained? Will the evidence not related to national security be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree?"

    I think this is an issue that requires serious discussion.

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by opinterph; June 15th, 2013 at 04:25 PM. Reason: merged posts

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    As someone who aims to be a little more distrustful of government and believes that a healthy distrust should always be maintained, I am more shocked at the actual shock of the program rather than the details of the program itself.

    Anyone paying attention to the Bush administration would have realized that numerous legislation and acts (Patriot, FISA, Protect America) had contained provisions that most civil liberties construed as potentially dangerous. And yet it is under Obama that a majority of people are now crying out at his stance on privacy and security.

    And as for the technology, the potential for a program like PRISM has always been in place. The innovations that help search queries in Google or advertising organizations that can track your habits online (like googling gay porn and then finding your dash or sidebars loaded with gay dating sites afterwards) allow the NSA to sort through so much pieces of information quickly. (Interesting sidenote: that's how my friends found out I was gay, through the sidebars for advertisements when they glanced over. And again__funny how 'dating' sites showing up after looking for things like 'hard fuck' or 'cum swallow'...don't judge my online habits, the government does that already )

    Which is the main reason for this topic, the supposed legality of the program. As much as our nature says it can be illegal or unconstitutional and against the fourth amendment of unreasonable searches and seizures, it might not be so easy to say that in regards to this notion. This is not to say that a bulwark of intelligence activities are not however. It would be hard to imagine somebody saying that investigations into specific individuals necessitates daily copies of information from a plethora of individuals.

    The business powers provisions collects and logs calling information and email records, the metadata of it at least. Officials like Rand Paul classify it as illegal, but the history of the Supreme Court has changed in that regard. Business papers used to be treated the same as private papers, but when the regulatory scheme for business changed to be more all-encompassing, classifying them as the same would negate a lot of legislation regulating business.

    US V Miller and Smith V Maryland extended this notion to financial records given to banks and telephone records. This has now developed the notion of the 'third party' doctrine of privacy. If you entrusted information about yourself to somebody else, or if you used technology that left a data trail (for instance in a corporate computer) you ran the risk of the information being made public, and thus you had no 'reasonable expectation' of privacy. Common sense, however, dictates that most people when searching for porn, or talking to a suicide-counselor or an attorney would expect an amount of discretion in that information.

    This is where the problem lies, technology murking the waters of what was relatively simple law. In our information age, EVERYTHING practically leaves a data trail. Joining this site or a political organization or a book reading club creates a record of it for a third party. Things don't require physical searches anymore. By living in an era of modern technology, it would presuppose that most have unwittingly given up the right to say fourth amendment protection under current constitutional law. Unless the Fourth Amendment can be changed or reinterpreted for a modern age, programs like PRISM can be hard to critique.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    But I tell you what. I'll join in your outrage if your conjecture is backed up with proof.
    I wonder that you demand proof that information is not being abused, but not that the data mining program has accomplished any useful anti-terror intelligence whatsoever.

    It failed to stop the underwear bomber in 2009 (even though even the perpetrator's family tried to flag him for monitoring ahead of time). It failed to stop the Boston Marathon bombers in 2013 (even though they were flagged for monitoring by the FBI prior to the incident). It failed to stop the Little Rock, Arkansas shooting of two American soldiers in 2009, or the killing of seven CIA agents in Iraq in 2009. It failed to catch the Times Square bomber in 2010 (a street vendor accomplished what the NSA, CIA, and FBI could not). It failed to stop the Ft. Hood shooting in 2009, or the Newtown mass shooting in 2012.

    So far as we are aware, this massive surveillance program by the NSA has accomplished nothing useful whatsoever, throughout its entire history. And don't tell me that we cannot know all the wonderful good it has done because "it's classified." Prosecuting people who have attempted crimes and failed cannot be done in some sort of secret court. If failed terrorist attempts were being foiled and people prosecuted for participation in such activity, we would KNOW about it. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that this massive spying on US citizens HAS ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING USEFUL WHATSOEVER throughout its entire history.

    There is, in fact, some evidence (albeit speculative) that the PRISM program may have compromised US secrets to the Chinese. Some people in the IT community believe that the recent hacking of Google by the Chinese was actually accomplished through the NSA's back door to Google. In other words, it may have been PRISM that was hacked, not Google. We have no evidence whatsoever that PRISM has done anything to advance American security. But we have some speculative evidence that PRISM has harmed American security.

    As Ben Franklin warned, trying to trade security for liberty results in the loss of both.


    http://www.zdnet.com/how-secure-is-t...cy-7000016752/

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    CONTINUATION OF POST 129



    http://news.yahoo.com/secret-prism-s...250cm9s;_ylv=3

    It is the "working backward" part that gives me concern.

    We know from Maryland vs. King that a current DNA swab is reasonable upon apprehension and without warrant. We also know that such DNA can be used to charge for a past criminal act.

    What happens if a legitimate national security inquiry - lets say with warrant - uncovers evidence of a current or past criminal activity, say, tax evasion, conspiracy to murder, kidnapping, bank robbery, etc.?

    What happens if those prior acts are leveraged to secure co-operation on the national security inquiry?

    Can charges on the other acts be sustained? Will the evidence not related to national security be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree?"

    I think this is an issue that requires serious discussion.

    Your thoughts?
    It's the same as any criminal investigation. If you are legally being investigated for terrorism related charges and they turn up evidence that you've previously robbed a bank, they can use that evidence, in most cases, to also charge you with bank robbery. I don't see why it would be any different just because of the source of the evidence. If they use that evidence to extort some other type of cooperation with you, assuming it's not part of a legal plea bargain, then that is not legal and you are no longer conducting a legal investigation.

    However, in most warrants for access to databases, they usually limit the scope of what data can be looked for and what data can be legally obtained from that. Warrants are generally specific on what can and cannot be obtained. Even the leaked Verizon warrant spelled out what data could be obtained and what data could not be obtained. If you obtain data the warrant doesn't allow, then that data cannot be legally used against a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I wonder that you demand proof that information is not being abused, but not that the data mining program has accomplished any useful anti-terror intelligence whatsoever.

    It failed to stop the underwear bomber in 2009 (even though even the perpetrator's family tried to flag him for monitoring ahead of time). It failed to stop the Boston Marathon bombers in 2013 (even though they were flagged for monitoring by the FBI prior to the incident). It failed to stop the Little Rock, Arkansas shooting of two American soldiers in 2009, or the killing of seven CIA agents in Iraq in 2009. It failed to catch the Times Square bomber in 2010 (a street vendor accomplished what the NSA, CIA, and FBI could not). It failed to stop the Ft. Hood shooting in 2009, or the Newtown mass shooting in 2012.

    So far as we are aware, this massive surveillance program by the NSA has accomplished nothing useful whatsoever, throughout its entire history. And don't tell me that we cannot know all the wonderful good it has done because "it's classified." Prosecuting people who have attempted crimes and failed cannot be done in some sort of secret court. If failed terrorist attempts were being foiled and people prosecuted for participation in such activity, we would KNOW about it. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that this massive spying on US citizens HAS ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING USEFUL WHATSOEVER throughout its entire history.

    There is, in fact, some evidence (albeit speculative) that the PRISM program may have compromised US secrets to the Chinese. Some people in the IT community believe that the recent hacking of Google by the Chinese was actually accomplished through the NSA's back door to Google. In other words, it may have been PRISM that was hacked, not Google. We have no evidence whatsoever that PRISM has done anything to advance American security. But we have some speculative evidence that PRISM has harmed American security.

    As Ben Franklin warned, trying to trade security for liberty results in the loss of both.


    http://www.zdnet.com/how-secure-is-t...cy-7000016752/
    I know for a fact that information obtained from various intelligence agencies have protected Americans around the world. Saying that because methods are not 100% effective makes them not worth pursuing is absurd. But that's not what I'm demanding proof of. I want to see proof that the programs involve spying on Americans like people are claiming. I've seen claims ranging from they're listening in to my phone calls to they're reading all of my e-mails to they're downloading and storing everything I do. There is no evidence at all that any of this is being performed against Americans. None at all.

    Everything I have seen has been, at best, half truths about the limited information. Yet, if you compare what people say to what the limited number of slides that have been published say, you'll see there is a huge amount of personal opinion that is added into these "articles". The Post and Guardian reported that the PowerPoint for Prism was like 40 slides long, yet there only seem to have been 3 or 4 slides published. What's in the rest of them? For all we know, the other slides contain information saying who it can and cannot be used against or what legal procedures must be followed to protect people's rights. It seems that they took what is most sensational from the slides and put that in their article without giving the full picture. Why is that?

    And as far as the Benjamin Franklin quote (which you seem to have truncated slightly), take a look at this:

    http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/meyer/060911

    So as not to be like some alarmists out there, this is of course an opinion article since Ben isn't alive to talk to us. However, it does provide an alternate perspective on what he could have meant by that quote other than no amount of liberty can ever be sacrificed for any amount of security.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by txjunior View Post
    As someone who aims to be a little more distrustful of government and believes that a healthy distrust should always be maintained, I am more shocked at the actual shock of the program rather than the details of the program itself.

    Anyone paying attention to the Bush administration would have realized that numerous legislation and acts (Patriot, FISA, Protect America) had contained provisions that most civil liberties construed as potentially dangerous. And yet it is under Obama that a majority of people are now crying out at his stance on privacy and security.

    And as for the technology, the potential for a program like PRISM has always been in place. The innovations that help search queries in Google or advertising organizations that can track your habits online (like googling gay porn and then finding your dash or sidebars loaded with gay dating sites afterwards) allow the NSA to sort through so much pieces of information quickly. (Interesting sidenote: that's how my friends found out I was gay, through the sidebars for advertisements when they glanced over. And again__funny how 'dating' sites showing up after looking for things like 'hard fuck' or 'cum swallow'...don't judge my online habits, the government does that already )

    Which is the main reason for this topic, the supposed legality of the program. As much as our nature says it can be illegal or unconstitutional and against the fourth amendment of unreasonable searches and seizures, it might not be so easy to say that in regards to this notion. This is not to say that a bulwark of intelligence activities are not however. It would be hard to imagine somebody saying that investigations into specific individuals necessitates daily copies of information from a plethora of individuals.

    The business powers provisions collects and logs calling information and email records, the metadata of it at least. Officials like Rand Paul classify it as illegal, but the history of the Supreme Court has changed in that regard. Business papers used to be treated the same as private papers, but when the regulatory scheme for business changed to be more all-encompassing, classifying them as the same would negate a lot of legislation regulating business.

    US V Miller and Smith V Maryland extended this notion to financial records given to banks and telephone records. This has now developed the notion of the 'third party' doctrine of privacy. If you entrusted information about yourself to somebody else, or if you used technology that left a data trail (for instance in a corporate computer) you ran the risk of the information being made public, and thus you had no 'reasonable expectation' of privacy. Common sense, however, dictates that most people when searching for porn, or talking to a suicide-counselor or an attorney would expect an amount of discretion in that information.

    This is where the problem lies, technology murking the waters of what was relatively simple law. In our information age, EVERYTHING practically leaves a data trail. Joining this site or a political organization or a book reading club creates a record of it for a third party. Things don't require physical searches anymore. By living in an era of modern technology, it would presuppose that most have unwittingly given up the right to say fourth amendment protection under current constitutional law. Unless the Fourth Amendment can be changed or reinterpreted for a modern age, programs like PRISM can be hard to critique.
    In terms of metadata on electronic communications, here is how I see it:

    If I mail a letter to someone, I expect anyone in the world to be able to see the addressee and my return address as well as what date I mailed it. I don't expect anyone but the recipient to read the contents (unless a legally obtained warrant grants another party access to those contents.)

    That's exactly how phone calls and e-mails work. An originating identifier, a destination identifier, and a time/date stamp or open information. The contents of that e-mail (ignoring the technological realities, encryption or lack thereof, etc.) are not open information (i.e. possess a reasonable expectation of privacy.)

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I know for a fact that information obtained from various intelligence agencies have protected Americans around the world.
    That is not the question.

    The question is whether or not spying on Americans indiscriminately has done anything other than hurt America.


    (And, BTW, your link regarding the Franklin quote is amusing. The authors try to turn Franklin's quote that trading liberty for security is bad into a claim by Franklin that giving up liberty for security is actually kinda good. Franklin wasn't referring to ALL liberties, just some. And he wasn't referring to ALL kinds of security, just some. It's amazing to me what people will say. It's Orwellian "Newspeak." Good means bad and bad means good. )
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 15th, 2013 at 02:24 PM.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    That is not the question.

    The question is whether or not spying on Americans indiscriminately has done anything other than hurt America.


    (And, BTW, your link regarding the Franklin quote is amusing. The authors try to turn Franklin's quote that trading liberty for security is bad into a claim by Franklin that giving up liberty for security is actually kinda good. Franklin wasn't referring to ALL liberties, just some. And he wasn't referring to ALL kinds of security, just some. It's amazing to me what people will say. It's Orwellian "Newspeak." Good means bad and bad means good. )
    The question is not what you pose it to be. The question is is the government indiscriminately spying on American? That question has not been answered at all and nothing provided up to this point indicates that it is.

    And did you read the piece I linked at all? If so, I don't know how in the world you read that from the words used in it. And you still misinterpreted his quote. I don't see at all the "Orwellian Newspeak" you claim in that piece. I'm starting to see how you are interpreting what has been presented in the news as proof that the government is spying on all Americans. What the piece is actually trying to say is that those that use a (mis)quote from Franklin to justify their rationale that the government shouldn't be involved in any intelligence gathering because it may possibly infringe upon any possible liberty out there are misguided and interpreting in absolutes rather than the premise that essential liberties being traded for temporary security is what is actually the bad thing.

    What I see his quote meaning is that it's not okay for the government to take away the fourth amendment and go around kicking in everyone's door and searching their house because some lady just got her purse snatched down the road and it may happen again, not that it's not okay to collect metadata and build call chains to attempt to identify potential terrorists in the country in order to prevent terrorist attacks from this point forward.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    The question is not what you pose it to be. The question is is the government indiscriminately spying on American? That question has not been answered at all and nothing provided up to this point indicates that it is.
    That is the claim of Edward Snowden. He revealed the presence of a program known as PRISM, which enables the government to collect information including search histories, the content of emails, file transfers, live chats, and a lot of other information on a massive scale. Moreover, Mr. Snowden presented documents to The Guardian and The South China Morning Post to corroborate his claims. Both papers believe the documents to be authentic.

    Interestingly, no one in the US government has denied these claims. In fact, they have admitted the existence of PRISM.

    I presume your point is that Snowden only presented evidence that PRISM has the capability of spying on everyone, but he did not actually present evidence that it is. That's not a very credible argument. Why would the NSA set up this (massive and phenomenally expensive) infrastructure and then not use it?

    No, we don't know exactly how it's being used. But, one has to presume that PRISM is being used in the way it was designed to be used. And that's problematic in a society where people have rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And did you read the piece I linked at all?
    How could I have commented on the manner in which Robert Meyer twisted around the meaning of the words Ben Franklin wrote, if I had not read the article?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    If so, I don't know how in the world you read that from the words used in it. And you still misinterpreted his quote. I don't see at all the "Orwellian Newspeak" you claim in that piece.
    Ben Franklin said:

    "Those who can give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    Mr. Meyer says that what Franklin meant was that it is actually okay to give up some liberties (those, apparently, which are not essential) to obtain some safety (that, apparently, which is not small or temporary).

    Franklin warned against the danger of surrendering liberty for safety, and Mr. Meyer somehow turned that into Franklin saying that it's okay to give up liberty for safety in our current circumstance, because the liberties being surrendered are not essential, and the safety being obtained is not small or temporary. That's Orwellian Newspeak. He just claimed that Franklin meant the opposite of what his words say. ["War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."]

    I wonder what liberties we possess which are not essential, and what safety exists in life which is permanent?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    I presume your point is that Snowden only presented evidence that PRISM has the capability of spying on everyone, but he did not actually present evidence that it is. That's not a very credible argument. Why would the NSA set up this (massive and phenomenally expensive) infrastructure and then not use it?
    This.................

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    That is the claim of Edward Snowden. He revealed the presence of a program known as PRISM, which enables the government to collect information including search histories, the content of emails, file transfers, live chats, and a lot of other information on a massive scale. Moreover, Mr. Snowden presented documents to The Guardian and The South China Morning Post to corroborate his claims. Both papers believe the documents to be authentic.

    Interestingly, no one in the US government has denied these claims. In fact, they have admitted the existence of PRISM.

    I presume your point is that Snowden only presented evidence that PRISM has the capability of spying on everyone, but he did not actually present evidence that it is. That's not a very credible argument. Why would the NSA set up this (massive and phenomenally expensive) infrastructure and then not use it?

    No, we don't know exactly how it's being used. But, one has to presume that PRISM is being used in the way it was designed to be used. And that's problematic in a society where people have rights.
    They have not denied the existence of the system, but they have repeatedly denied that it is not used to target Americans. You, and everyone else, seem to forget that the US isn't the only country in the world. The United States makes up about 6% of the world's population. The NSA is responsible for making sure the other 94% aren't out to harm America, whether it be terrorists, state actors, foreign businesses, etc. Presumably, all of the capabilities that PRISM has would be of use against the targets NSA can go after everyday without needing a warrant at all (i.e. non-Americans not in America.)

    Again, you are cramming the limited facts available (that a system exists that has x, y, and z capability) into your narrative that you want people to believe (the government hates Americans) in order to make a half-truth (the government must be using this system to spy on Americans because why else would the system exist?) That's the argument that's not very credible. If this system is capable of spying on all Americans and Snowden had the ability, as he claimed, to be able to tap into anyone's information at the push of a button, why didn't he provide an example? Why not get a phone call the President had made and release it showing that this capability was being used to target Americans? Why not show some e-mails that Pelosi or Boehner sent on their Gmail? Why not show Rand Paul Skyping with Ron Paul? It's because this information doesn't exist and he didn't have the capability to access any of it. All he has done is show that the NSA has a program in place where it can access information it needs to execute its mission. He didn't provide any evidence that it was being used against Americans at all.

    So yes, the NSA could be using this infrastructure everyday and still not be targeting Americans because there are 6 billion other people out there who aren't Americans and who don't get Fourth Amendment protections.

    And, by the way, $20 million a year is not "phenomenally expensive" when you're talking about a government who spends trillions a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    How could I have commented on the manner in which Robert Meyer twisted around the meaning of the words Ben Franklin wrote, if I had not read the article?

    Ben Franklin said:

    "Those who can give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    Mr. Meyer says that what Franklin meant was that it is actually okay to give up some liberties (those, apparently, which are not essential) to obtain some safety (that, apparently, which is not small or temporary).

    Franklin warned against the danger of surrendering liberty for safety, and Mr. Meyer somehow turned that into Franklin saying that it's okay to give up liberty for safety in our current circumstance, because the liberties being surrendered are not essential, and the safety being obtained is not small or temporary. That's Orwellian Newspeak. He just claimed that Franklin meant the opposite of what his words say. ["War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."]

    I wonder what liberties we possess which are not essential, and what safety exists in life which is permanent?
    You could have read the first paragraph and then commented on it, which is what I am thinking, because nowhere in that article did he claim Franklin meant the opposite of what he said. The entire article is written about and targeted to those who interpret Franklin's quote as being absolute. But if you provide a quote from the article showing where he made the point Franklin actually meant the opposite of what he said, we'll talk further. Reading more into something than what is there seems to be a strong point of your's.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post

    They have not denied the existence of the system, but they have repeatedly denied that it is not used to target Americans.
    The NSA and the FBI have acknowledged that PRISM is a working reality.

    Then we should assume - according to your bizarre reasoning - that there are no terrorist suspects living in the United States, and that all terrorist suspects live outside the United States...and of course, according to your further bizarre reasoning United States citizens and others (foreigners) resident in the United States cannot possibly be terrorist suspects?

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The NSA and the FBI have acknowledged that PRISM is a working reality.

    Then we should assume - according to your bizarre reasoning - that there are no terrorist suspects living in the United States, and that all terrorist suspects live outside the United States...and of course, according to your further bizarre reasoning United States citizens and others (foreigners) resident in the United States cannot possibly be terrorist suspects?
    You guys have a hard time with reasoned responses, which is why I stopped a long time ago.

    He said a massive system was set up because America is 6% of the world and the rest of you #@$% @#%^%^@ can be spied upon. (I added #@$% @#%^%^@ in referring to non-americans just because it sounds shitty)

    When warrants are presented as in the cases with Facebook and Microsoft then they can use the system to look at that persons history IF the warrant specifies and IF the search requires it. Incidently Microsoft and Facebook released the "targets" they were required to release to the government and it amounts to a tenth of a percent of their customer base.... lol. So obviously we are spying on ALL Americans.
    Last edited by JayHawk; June 16th, 2013 at 06:14 AM.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You guys have a hard time with reasoned responses, which is why I stopped a long time ago.

    He said a massive system was set up because America is 6% of the world and the rest of you #@$% @#%^%^@ can be spied upon. (I added #@$% @#%^%^@ in referring to non-americans just because it sounds shitty)

    When warrants are presented as in the cases with Facebook and Microsoft then they can use the system to look at that persons history IF the warrant specifies and IF the search requires it. Incidently Microsoft and Facebook released the "targets" they were required to release to the government and it amounts to a tenth of a percent of their customer base.... lol. So obviously we are spying on ALL Americans.
    The fact remains that PRISM is used to monitor the communications of United States citizens - the numbers of persons targeted are not relevant - living in the United States for, the NSA understands very well that a terrorist suspect is just as likely to be a home grown, white skinned, blue eyed American such as Timothy McVeigh as he or she could be an Asian, and attempts by you or anyone else posting here to obfuscate this reality by resorting to poorly constructed Sophistic argumentation will not change the well publicised tactics of the NSA.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Right, as compelled by warrants and a need to search. They collect metadata and then use it to narrow out known acquaintances.

    What I find compelling is that Snowden is turning out to be a regular, everyday traitor and providng a nation he used to spy on with what they are gathering to gain favor with that country.

    You and others like you are claiming, sans any evidence, that the USA is the evil empire. But you forget you have no evidence. Stand by, like I said once the congress is read in they will shut the fuck up and be calling for Snowden's head on a stick. I wouldn't be surprised when Hong Kong hands him to us since we have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong. Even with the Chinese influence on foreign matters because Snowden is a tiny cog in a giant and deep relationship between this country and China.

    But hey... stop back in and tell me I am wrong after it plays out, oh and please, keep telling us the sky is falling in the meantime. Plenty of chicken littles will ride your bandwagon.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Right, as compelled by warrants and a need to search. They collect metadata and then use it to narrow out known acquaintances.

    What I find compelling is that Snowden is turning out to be a regular, everyday traitor and providng a nation he used to spy on with what they are gathering to gain favor with that country.

    You and others like you are claiming, sans any evidence, that the USA is the evil empire. But you forget you have no evidence. Stand by, like I said once the congress is read in they will shut the fuck up and be calling for Snowden's head on a stick. I wouldn't be surprised when Hong Kong hands him to us since we have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong. Even with the Chinese influence on foreign matters because Snowden is a tiny cog in a giant and deep relationship between this country and China.

    But hey... stop back in and tell me I am wrong after it plays out, oh and please, keep telling us the sky is falling in the meantime. Plenty of chicken littles will ride your bandwagon.
    Keep on speculating...for it's entertaining...meantime, I'll keep focusing on the facts while you provide us with entertainment value.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    The facts::

    "You can't expect a president to not use a legal tool that Congress has given him to protect the country," he said. "So, Congress has given him the tool. The president's using it. And the courts are saying 'The way you're using it is OK.' That's checks and balances at work."

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/prism...#ixzz2WOZ8UxQ7
    feel free to read the article above. It is quite illuminating. While the world focuses on PRISM the reality is that we are recording the real feed, that is what the storage in Utah is for and people should actually thank PRISM for narrowing the data analyzed.

    Kallipolis you have no idea how much of the facts I knew long before everyone's panties were in a wad. I deal in reality land, sorry to bust your bubble. ALL three tiers of our government have agreed it is necessary and protects constitutional rights. In other words our entire government is either 100% corrupted or this is legal.... This isn't like different politicians showing up in Greece, figuring out everyone is lying about the debt and then choosing to lie as well. These are all independent agencies and legs of government who in many cases have good reason to chop the legs off of the next tier.

    But like I said we will continue down the path of what is released and the NSA collection will continue. What I find astonishing is that all of this was out there and has been for years. People a truly fucking cattle.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post

    Kallipolis you have no idea how much of the facts I knew long before everyone's panties were in a wad.
    That you say so....keep whistling Yankee, doodle, dandy ..better still I prefer this version, to your's:


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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Well if you have no other response to the conversation... enjoy tooting your horn.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    They have not denied the existence of the system, but they have repeatedly denied that it is not used to target Americans. You, and everyone else, seem to forget that the US isn't the only country in the world. The United States makes up about 6% of the world's population. The NSA is responsible for making sure the other 94% aren't out to harm America, whether it be terrorists, state actors, foreign businesses, etc. Presumably, all of the capabilities that PRISM has would be of use against the targets NSA can go after everyday without needing a warrant at all (i.e. non-Americans not in America.)
    In other words, it is your contention that the NSA has set up a massive data mining system within the USA, in order to spy on foreigners, exclusively.

    I would suggest to the NSA that if it was interested in foreigners and not Americans, it might monitor foreign internet traffic, not American.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, you are cramming the limited facts available (that a system exists that has x, y, and z capability) into your narrative that you want people to believe (the government hates Americans) in order to make a half-truth (the government must be using this system to spy on Americans because why else would the system exist?) That's the argument that's not very credible.
    No, of course, it's ridiculous to suppose that the NSA would set up a massive system designed to spy on Americans, and then use it to spy on Americans. What was I thinking?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    If this system is capable of spying on all Americans and Snowden had the ability, as he claimed, to be able to tap into anyone's information at the push of a button, why didn't he provide an example?
    Snowden did not claim that, and he did provide evidence of what PRISM is doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Why not get a phone call the President had made and release it showing that this capability was being used to target Americans? Why not show some e-mails that Pelosi or Boehner sent on their Gmail? Why not show Rand Paul Skyping with Ron Paul? It's because this information doesn't exist and he didn't have the capability to access any of it.
    Why do you assume that a 29 year old low-level IT guy at the NSA in Hawaii had comprehensive access to everything the NSA collects nationwide, and the ability to smuggle this information out?

    Why do you regard Snowden as some kind of IT god?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    All he has done is show that the NSA has a program in place where it can access information it needs to execute its mission. He didn't provide any evidence that it was being used against Americans at all.
    And why do you assume that a system designed from the ground up to spy on all Americans is not being used to spy on Americans?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So yes, the NSA could be using this infrastructure everyday and still not be targeting Americans because there are 6 billion other people out there who aren't Americans and who don't get Fourth Amendment protections.
    PRISM was set up within the USA to spy on American internet traffic. I guess if you want to know what is going on in Beijing, Moscow, and Tehran, you check in with Milwaukee, Burbank, and Tallahassee.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    And, by the way, $20 million a year is not "phenomenally expensive" when you're talking about a government who spends trillions a year.
    How do you know that PRISM and multiple similar programs cost only $20 million per year?


    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You could have read the first paragraph and then commented on it, which is what I am thinking, because nowhere in that article did he claim Franklin meant the opposite of what he said. The entire article is written about and targeted to those who interpret Franklin's quote as being absolute. But if you provide a quote from the article showing where he made the point Franklin actually meant the opposite of what he said, we'll talk further. Reading more into something than what is there seems to be a strong point of your's.
    Fine.

    I want to know what "essential liberty" anyone has lost via any measure to heighten security in the wake of 9-11?
    Notice also, that Franklin talks of "a little temporary safety." The measures we are employing are designed to avert future terrorist attacks, and have already proven successful in catching terrorists before they can cause mayhem. Is that considered "a little temporary safety?"
    Exactly as I described, Meyer claims that Franklin did not mean to caution us about trading liberty for security in our current circumstance, apparently because the liberties now compromised are somehow not essential, and the safety achieved is somehow not temporary. What a staggeringly stupid argument.



    http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/meyer/060911

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Meyers seemed also to support the Sedition Act, which was John Adam's biggest mistake and regret in an otherwise distinguished public career, and accept the internment of Japanese-Americans throughout our involvement against Japan in WWII. While the Constitution may not reject the suspension of Habeus Corpus in a civil rebellion as Lincoln acted during the Civil War, using today's concern over international terrorism to basically say Franklin would even be fine with the exponentially expansive national security state.... I believe especially in times like this he would urge that we don't destroy the values we hold dear JUST to be secure.
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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    Meyers seemed also to support the Sedition Act, which was John Adam's biggest mistake and regret in an otherwise distinguished public career, and accept the internment of Japanese-Americans throughout our involvement against Japan in WWII.
    Yes, exactly.

    Meyer's mantra is that security is more important than liberty, especially in times of distress. As if interning Japanese Americans made us safer during WWII! So much safer that it was worth suspending the civil and human rights of 150,000 American citizens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    While the Constitution may not reject the suspension of Habeus Corpus in a civil rebellion as Lincoln acted during the Civil War, using today's concern over international terrorism to basically say Franklin would even be fine with the exponentially expansive national security state.... I believe especially in times like this he would urge that we don't destroy the values we hold dear JUST to be secure.
    Thank you. You get it, Sausy.

    It is in times of distress that our liberties are most threatened. It is during these times that we must act most emphatically to protect our rights - not suspend them because we feel threatened by trying times.

    Franklin was not trying to tell us that it is okay to suspend civil rights when times get tough. He was trying to warn us of the danger of succumbing to fear when people would try to frighten us.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 16th, 2013 at 12:17 PM.

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    Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Yes, exactly.

    Meyer's mantra is that security is more important than liberty, especially in times of distress. As if interning Japanese Americans made us safer during WWII! So much safer that it was worth suspending the civil and human rights of 150,000 American citizens.




    Thank you. You get it, Sausy.

    It is in times of distress that our liberties are most threatened. It is during these times that we must act most emphatically to protect our rights - not suspend them because we feel threatened by trying times.

    Franklin was not trying to tell us that it is okay to suspend civil rights when times get tough. He was trying to warn us of the danger of succumbing to fear when people are trying to frighten us.
    Also even if we can feel comfortable that the intentions of those behind these programs are noble we cannot afford to trust infinitely everyone's motives. We allow this now, we may well lose our country as we have known it... or wished in our most positive thoughts what it could be.
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