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  1. #1
    JUB Addict evanrick's Avatar
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    Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/03/in-su...h-sides-again/

    This ruling expanding police powers would bother liberals, libertarians, and defenders of the constitution, but it wouldn't bother conservatives, because it increases federal powers.

    Scalia joined 3 of the more liberal justices

    Breyer switched sides

    Really wary of this ruling, how can they use arrest to justify DNA sampling?

    I don't believe this is constitutional at the end of the day.
    http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic30903_2.gif

  2. #2
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Are you saying that Justice Scalia is not a conservative? He was certainly bothered.

    I tend to be left of center but do not view it as an abrogation of constitutional rights. They don't even need to swab the cheek; they can get the DNA off a coffee cup, chewing gum or cigarette butt.

    This "controversy" is just something people can get vexed about.

  3. #3

    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    This is not legislation. The Constitution prohibits " unreasonable" searches. This clearly is not unreasonable.

  4. #4
    JUB Addict evanrick's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    What your saying is you support Breyers decision to side with the conservative wing of the court, and oppose Scalias decision to side with the liberal side of the court.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanrick View Post
    What your saying is you support Breyers decision to side with the conservative wing of the court, and oppose Scalias decision to side with the liberal side of the court.
    What I'm saying is clear enough.

  6. #6

    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    as a leftish non-American , I do not see that this is any more intrusive than fingerprinting . Secondarily to counter arguments I have come across here , to support capital punishment by suggesting that now DNA makes any trial conclusive , is absurd . DNA like fingerprints can usually be moved around easily . At best if unmovable just proof that a person was there at some point .

  7. #7

    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    I tend to be a moderate, no alligence to either party.

    But I agree with evanrick ( donkeys must be flying) on this one. The court got it wrong. If you are arrested, dna taken, and then charges dropped, cops made a mistake, your dna is still in their data base. I can't imagine them ever removeing it.

  8. #8
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This is not legislation. The Constitution prohibits " unreasonable" searches. This clearly is not unreasonable.
    The Constitution prohibits murder yet, murder is a daily occurrence.

    To assume that police officers will always abide by the law of the land, and their own regulations is at best being naive.....

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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The Constitution prohibits murder yet, murder is a daily occurrence.

    To assume that police officers will always abide by the law of the land, and their own regulations is at best being naive.....
    Just where does the US Constitution prohibit murder? Murder is reserved to the States. Murder having a Federal nexus (on Federal land, of a Federal officer, etc.) is criminalized by Federal Statute.

  10. #10

    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin23 View Post
    I tend to be a moderate, no alligence to either party.

    But I agree with evanrick ( donkeys must be flying) on this one. The court got it wrong. If you are arrested, dna taken, and then charges dropped, cops made a mistake, your dna is still in their data base. I can't imagine them ever removeing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The Constitution prohibits murder yet, murder is a daily occurrence.

    To assume that police officers will always abide by the law of the land, and their own regulations is at best being naive.....
    The Constitution does not prohibit murder. The Constitutional question before the Court was whether the swabbing was an unreasonable search, requiring a warrant.

  11. #11
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Just where does the US Constitution prohibit murder? Murder is reserved to the States. Murder having a Federal nexus (on Federal land, of a Federal officer, etc.) is criminalized by Federal Statute.
    You're being pedantic. The law of the land prohibits murder.

  12. #12
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The Constitution does not prohibit murder. The Constitutional question before the Court was whether the swabbing was an unreasonable search, requiring a warrant.
    I repeat that to assume that police officers will always abide by The Constitution and their own regulations is naive....when empowering police officers to swab DNA samples on arrest of an alleged suspect.

    Police corruption is a fact of life with more than sufficient data available on the Internet to question whether it is reasonable to swab an arrested person, before being charged...further will the DNA be destroyed should the defendant not face charges, or face charges, tried and found not guilty?

    Were you to be stopped by police officers arrested, swabbed and then released without charge would you be happy? For this is the Orwellian nightmare that this court decision is presenting to the general public.

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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You're being pedantic. The law of the land prohibits murder.
    Let me see.

    You make a fundamentally incorrect statement.

    I point out your error.

    That makes me a pedant.

    Okay.

    Now let me point out that your statement about police officers invokes the slippery slope fallacy.

  14. #14
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Let me see.

    You make a fundamentally incorrect statement.

    I point out your error.

    That makes me a pedant.

    Okay.

    Now let me point out that your statement about police officers invokes the slippery slope fallacy.
    Your pedantry is not my problem.

    There are examples in London, England where police officers were singling out young blacks arresting them swabbing for DNA samples and then releasing without charge leading to social unrest. The policy has since been changed to reflect public disquiet with racial profiling and a realisation that an Orwellian nightmare was being implemented merely on the pretext of police officers choosing to select candidates whom they determined should be swabbed for no other reason than they believed their victims to be worthy prey.

  15. #15
    mitchymo
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    I dislike Scalia's distinction between fingerprints and DNA.

    He says that fingerprints are primarily used for identification, whereas DNA is used to solve unsolved crimes.

    This is a poor distinction, since DNA is as valuable as fingerprinting in identification, and fingerprints can be used to solve unsolved crimes, just like DNA.

    The only real distinction between the two, is that fingerprinting is well-established.

    I'd happily agree that a DNA database was un-necessary and therefore too invasive (unreasonable), IF, all crimes could identify a criminal by fingerprinting. Sadly, fingerprints are not as useful to police in identification when the crime is rape or murder, since fingerprints are rare evidence in them cases. DNA is a valuable tool for identification and solving crime. Its not unreasonable to allow police that resource. It IS unreasonable to argue that police should have to have only case-related evidence in order to solve that case (i.e. banning DNA collected as part of seperate investigation).

    I also have reservation about the suggestion that allowing DNA to be taken as part of serious crime investigations will lead to routine use of DNA sampling in ALL crime. This reservation is not because i disagree, but rather because i fail to see what negative implication exists. It all seems rather pointed towards some ominous reason that i'm unaware of.

    A DNA database simply doesn't concern me, not in the hands of the police, nor even with the government having access to it. The information identifies me, that's all. There are murder victims who are unidentified because they are not known to police. There are soldiers who have died in battle who are unknown. DNA, like fingerprinting has just as much validity in its use, if not more.

  16. #16
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    This article is several years old but helps to illustrate my contention that the ever widening intrusions into our private lives heralds the arrival of a police state where government knows everything about everybody.

    The experienced criminal will always find a loophole.

    There is no justification for a DNA database of anybody other than convicted criminals.

    Framing innocent people is made easier by ensuring that their DNA is planted at a crime scene. Be careful of that glass you have just been drinking from for it might used to ensure that you were placed at the scene of a crime.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...mment.politics

  17. #17
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    This is a much more recent article that disturbs me:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...=ILCNETTXT3487

  18. #18
    mitchymo
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Framing innocent people is made easier by ensuring that their DNA is planted at a crime scene. Be careful of that glass you have just been drinking from for it might used to ensure that you were placed at the scene of a crime.
    Paranoia is ALL that is. Planting DNA at a crime scene doesn't help on its own. Anyone wanting to frame me for murder for example, would have to ensure they framed me when i was alone so that i had nobody to stand by my side as a witness of my innocence, or that CCTV cameras ALL over town AND outside my front door were not working, AND that nobody was around to see my movements, AND that i didn't have any JUB posts timed to coincide with my 'alleged' crime.

    Its just too much paranoia and lack of faith that humanity is more good than bad which leads to these ridiculous claims that having a record of my identity is in some way bad.

    In response to this comment you made earlier: "Were you to be stopped by police officers arrested, swabbed and then released without charge would you be happy?" -

    Yes, i would be happy. I've assisted the police, i've had my innocence proven, i have no casue for concern that my DNA will connect me to a crime i committed 10yrs earlier, as there are none.

    I have no concern. Only if i allowed paranoia to get to me would i do.

  19. #19
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Paranoia
    You keep repeating this word as if to say that your experience in psychology is sufficient.

  20. #20
    mitchymo
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You keep repeating this word as if to say that your experience in psychology is sufficient.
    Maybe if the argument against such a database had a more reasoned case....

  21. #21

    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Congress and the State legislatures should decide if it is a good idea and what the uses and limitations are. The USSC only decides if it is Constitutionally permissible, without a warrant.

  22. #22
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    I agree with kallipolis here, these systems are open to be exploited and misused and just result in consequences other than those which they were designed or intended.

    How long before someone is wrongly convicted because a prosecution uses bad science to get a conviction based on erroneus interpretation of DNA results? How long before someone is wrongly convicted because it was CLAIMED to be a 'one in a billion' chance when actually it was an either accidental or deliberate skewing of the scientific data? How long before incompetent and corrupt police forces start discriminating against minorities and use this as a tool?

    It does NOTHING for the fight against crime and 'security' (a fictional concept driven by fear) but only puts us a step closer to a time when people are forced to have their DNA on a computer database, whether they've committed a crime or not.

    We don't, and never will, live in some idealistic world where exact incontrovertable science solves every and all crime, it's an illusion to ever get into that trap. Science and statistics are open to abuse from those in authority to use them as a means to their own end, and they'll gladly use the over-obsession with criminals and 'security' as a scapegoat for their own vices - greed, power, discrimination, prejudice.

    Keep going down that road, and you end up with no fewer criminals than you started - and instead have your society heading towards an authoritarian police state.

  23. #23
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Congress and the State legislatures should decide if it is a good idea and what the uses and limitations are. The USSC only decides if it is Constitutionally permissible, without a warrant.
    Agreed.......

  24. #24
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin23 View Post
    I tend to be a moderate, no alligence to either party.

    But I agree with evanrick ( donkeys must be flying) on this one. The court got it wrong. If you are arrested, dna taken, and then charges dropped, cops made a mistake, your dna is still in their data base. I can't imagine them ever removeing it.
    Some states [I know MA does at least] ban a "DNA database" from being created like a list of registered gun owners. The police has to take a "fresh" DNA sample of each person every time they are arrested. There are also statutes of limitations on many cases which will not allow a DNA sample to be used on a previous "open" case.

    If you happen to live in a state that allows a "DNA database" I feel bad for you then.

  25. #25
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Some states [I know MA does at least] ban a "DNA database" from being created like a list of registered gun owners.
    Perhaps Massachusetts does not retain arrestee data, but it does maintain a DNA database for criminal offenders.

    Massachusetts General Laws PART I TITLE II CHAPTER 22E

    Section 1

    There is hereby established within the department of state police a state DNA database

    Filing and storage of DNA records

    Expungement of record

    My research suggests that all 50 states, the District of Columbia, the federal government, the US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory, and Puerto Rico participate in the National DNA Index System.


  26. #26
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    To expand on opinterph's background:

    Authorized by Congress and supervised by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) con*nects DNA laboratories at the local, state, and national level. Since its authorization in 1994, the CODIS system has grown to include all 50 States and a number of federal agencies. CODIS collects DNA profiles provided by local laboratories taken from arrestees, convicted offenders, and forensic evidence found at crime scenes. To participate in CODIS, a local laboratory must sign a memorandum of understanding agreeing to adhere to quality standards and submit to audits to evaluate compliance with the federal standards for scientifically rigorous DNA testing.
    ....
    All 50 States require the collection of DNA from felony convicts, ... . Twenty-eight States and the Federal Government have adopted laws similar to the Maryland Act authorizing the collection of DNA from some or all arrestees.
    Maryland vs. King, 569 S.Ct ____ (2013) (pp. 10,11 of Slip Opinion) (citations omitted)

  27. #27
    JUB Addict evanrick's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Just where does the US Constitution prohibit murder? Murder is reserved to the States. Murder having a Federal nexus (on Federal land, of a Federal officer, etc.) is criminalized by Federal Statute.
    What does that have to do with what hes saying? The right to life is in the Declaration of Independence if you want to nit pick.
    http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic30903_2.gif

  28. #28

    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    A liberal arguing for the right to life? And criticizing the USSC for legislating? The DOI is not law. The right to life does appear in the Constitution, in the due process clauses. But it does not empower to Congress to legislate against murder, that power being reserved to the states. It is typical of liberals to believe that everything they want is embodied in the Constitution, and nothing they don't like.

  29. #29
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    If I were to stop someone on the street, use coercion to make them stand still, then stick something in their mouth against their will, I could be charged with a felony (oral sodomy with a foreign object).

    If a private citizen doing it is a felony, how is it that the police doing it is "reasonable"?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  30. #30

    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If I were to stop someone on the street, use coercion to make them stand still, then stick something in their mouth against their will, I could be charged with a felony (oral sodomy with a foreign object).

    If a private citizen doing it is a felony, how is it that the police doing it is "reasonable"?
    Absent a valid arrest on probable cause, the police doing it would not be reasonable. You could ask the same question about finger prints, photos, and the dread strip/cavity search.

  31. #31
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    Re: Supreme court tramples all over constitution again, can they even legislate like this?

    ^
    Your faith in cops actually having probable cause is amazingly naive. I sat in a courtroom in Portland one morning and the judge dismissed three cases out of twenty or so I listened to, for lack of probable cause -- the cops claimed having it, but the judge wasn't impressed. I suspect that's the tip of the iceberg, and that a good half of the cases were actually based on faked cause -- partly because twice I've been with someone cops decided to cuff, and then went off to talk about what they were arresting the person for.

    There has yet to be a piece of authority handed to cops that they haven't abused. This will be abused, and sooner rather than later.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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