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View Poll Results: ObamaCare, yes or no?

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13. You may not vote on this poll
  • Fuck Obama and his socialist schemes!

    6 46.15%
  • I will sign up...quietly.

    7 53.85%
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  1. #51
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Here is a CNN articles that estimates that 26 million will get the government subsidies. https://www.google.com/search?q=obam...&client=safari. But the 11 million illegals the Democrats want to add will inflate that.
    Here's a source for you:

    http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/...es-hcbill.html

  2. #52
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Here is a CNN articles that estimates that 26 million will get the government subsidies. https://www.google.com/search?q=obam...&client=safari. But the 11 million illegals the Democrats want to add will inflate that.
    Your claim was that the government would be buying health insurance for 47% of the population. That's not what the articles in your link say.

    They say that up to 26 million Americans may qualify for subsidies, which is to say that perhaps as much as 8% of the US population may qualify for some sort of assistance. Those who do get assistance are not likely to get much. Families making up to 400% of the federal poverty level must contribute 4% of their annual income toward their insurance premiums, before they become eligible for a subsidy. Families making more than 400% of the federal poverty level must contribute 9.5% of their income toward their premiums before they become eligible for a subsidy.

    Obviously, that's a huge percentage of their incomes. Very little of the remaining cost of the premiums will remain to be paid by the government. Moreover, very few of the people who are eligible for the subsidies will be able to accept them, because they will not be able to manage their portion of the responsibility for the premiums - it's huge. That means they will have no choice but to pay the penalty, and do without insurance. And it means that they will continue to be subsidized by people buying higher premiums for private insurance, which is one of the problems Obamacare was supposed to fix. And finally, it means that precious little subsidy money will ever be paid out to anyone.

    It is well to remember that Obamacare is a law requiring people to buy rather crappy private insurance that covers very few medical problems or expenses. It is not universal health care for America.

    The federal government paying a tiny portion of the health care premiums for a tiny percentage of the population is NOT "the government buying health insurance for 47% of the population." In fact, it isn't much of anything at all.

    And therein lies a problem.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 6th, 2013 at 02:21 PM.

  3. #53

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    The 26 million are families and/or the people required to buy the policies, while your 8% appears to be a percentage of all individuals, including children. The 26 million would be a much higher percentage of families or policy buyers.
    We seem however, to agree that the system is likely to fail.
    Last edited by Benvolio; June 6th, 2013 at 03:32 PM.

  4. #54
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    ^What do you want to see happen to healthcare in the US? If your word was law, what would you want?

    A repeat of the broken private system we've dragged behind us for so long? Right now, I can't really tell what you want, other than "not universal healthcare" and that what he had was bad but Obamacare is worse. I hear a lot of 'don't want' but not any real plan. What type of system do you stand for?

    Also, your reply to my previous post missed that I wasn't talking about Obamacare. I was talking about universal healthcare, which has absolutely no relation to the piece of shit private system we have now.

  5. #55
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We seem however, to agree that the system is likely to fail.
    On the contrary, I expect this system to "succeed." Not in providing comprehensive health care for all Americans, but at least in providing a little bit better coverage for a few more people, while saving a little bit of money. Obamacare is not much of a solution to the problem. But it is, at least, an attempt to do something worthwhile.

    My hope is that the system can be morphed over time into what it needs to be, more or less. The Republican Party is on the decline, and will be in less of a position in the immediate future to block progress for America. The public option (which Obama negotiated away in return for absolutely nothing from Republicans) can be added back at some point and the microscopic subsidies can be replaced by real assistance for people in need. Better control of the coverage (in part through implementation of the public option) can be achieved.

    America spends far more on health care than any nation on Earth, and yet we have little to show for our efforts in terms of favorable outcomes. It is the most bloated and inefficient healthcare system on Earth. It is a huge drag on our economy. Republicans, in their love of waste, want this to continue. It cannot.

  6. #56
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    On the contrary, I expect this system to "succeed." Not in providing comprehensive health care for all Americans, but at least in providing a little bit better coverage for a few more people, while saving a little bit of money. Obamacare is not much of a solution to the problem. But it is, at least, an attempt to do something worthwhile.

    My hope is that the system can be morphed over time into what it needs to be, more or less. The Republican Party is on the decline, and will be in less of a position in the immediate future to block progress for America. The public option (which Obama negotiated away in return for absolutely nothing from Republicans) can be added back at some point and the microscopic subsidies can be replaced by real assistance for people in need. Better control of the coverage (in part through implementation of the public option) can be achieved.

    America spends far more on health care than any nation on Earth, and yet we have little to show for our efforts in terms of favorable outcomes. It is the most bloated and inefficient healthcare system on Earth. It is a huge drag on our economy. Republicans, in their love of waste, want this to continue. It cannot.
    I'm with you on this one. ACA will succeed.

  7. #57

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Unfortunately, your post itself #52 describes a failure of the system, in which millions of families pay the tax rather than getting insurance. That dooms the system, not just for themselves but for the insurance companies, and ultimately for everyone. The only way to give free health care to those with preexisting if for everyone else to pay inflated premiums. You may however be right that the system will morph into a system in which we borrow money, for a time, to give universal health care. What then, when people stop loaning us money?

  8. #58
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Unfortunately, your post itself #52 describes a failure of the system, in which millions of families pay the tax rather than getting insurance. That dooms the system, not just for themselves but for the insurance companies, and ultimately for everyone. The only way to give free health care to those with preexisting if for everyone else to pay inflated premiums. You may however be right that the system will morph into a system in which we borrow money, for a time, to give universal health care. What then, when people stop loaning us money?
    How come you are ignoring the post I put a link in? Post #51

  9. #59

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    How come you are ignoring the post I put a link in? Post #51
    Your link is just a collection of straw man arguments.

  10. #60
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Since Obamacare was implemented, My insurance went up $2,500.00 and my out of pocket expenses doubled.
    It was explained that since children up to the age of 26 were added, premiums had to go up.
    Also since I have a "Cadillac plan"through my union, Starting in 2018 I will be hit with a 40% tax on what my employer pays for it.
    (Untaxed income) It showed up on my W-2 but not taxed - (yet)
    The choices I have is pay more or Drop my coverage and go on an exchange.

    Low income people will be given Medicaid, The cheapest insurance plans have high deductibles and high out of pocket expenses that render them useless unless you have a major illness.
    If you have a pre-existing condition - They have to cover you, But you will pay much more for the coverage.
    Smokers, overweight people will have to pay 50% more.

    It would seem Obamacare punishes you if you have good insurance or have an unhealthy lifestyle.
    I see very little in this plan that is Liberal or Democratic.
    I do see this as a Conservate Republican plan that forces you to pay more - get less, that very few will benefit from.

  11. #61

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    No fair! The Republicans have fought it tooth and nail.

  12. #62
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Unfortunately, your post itself #52 describes a failure of the system, in which millions of families pay the tax rather than getting insurance.
    If covering more people while saving money is "a failure of the system," then please, give me some more of this "failure."

    Republicans always seem to regard making life better for people as "failure."


    Quote Originally Posted by chuck10x View Post
    Since Obamacare was implemented, My insurance went up $2,500.00 and my out of pocket expenses doubled.
    That's an interesting claim, since Obamacare has yet to be implemented.

    I presume the (nonexistent) "free market" for health insurance has been driving your premiums ever downward over the last ten years.


    Quote Originally Posted by chuck10x View Post
    I see very little in this plan that is Liberal or Democratic.
    I do see this as a Conservate Republican plan that forces you to pay more - get less, that very few will benefit from.
    Obamacare was designed by the Heritage Foundation (a conservative "think tank") as an "alternative" to universal health care.

    Regrettably, our very conservative president has chosen to support it.

    It is better than the (now) Republican non-plan, which is to let our health care system (and economy) collapse. With some effort, we can fix its several problems in the coming years.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 7th, 2013 at 07:53 AM.

  13. #63
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No fair! The Republicans have fought it tooth and nail.
    Yes.

    Rather than try to make Obamacare better or suggest some alternative, the Republican approach has been to try to remove what little good it offers.

    In your never-ending struggle to make life more miserable for America, you have voted 37 times to try to stop the USA from saving money on healthcare, while yet giving more people coverage.

    Republicans have a fear that a few more Americans may achieve happiness, if they do not act to stop it. On immigration, on gay rights, on health care, on women's rights, on class inequality, the Republican response has been consistent - do what you can to stop people from getting whatever would make their lives better.

    That's rather pathologic.

  14. #64

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    You post 52 says few of the people entitled to subsidies will be able to buy so they will have to pay the tax, etc, etc. sounds like failure to me.

  15. #65
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    ^ Obamacare/Romneycare is a terrible plan that does not even come close to providing universal health care.

    It is a conservative wet dream that seeks to exclude poor people from health care and further exacerbate class warfare in America.

    That does not mean that it does not have a little bit of merit. And the Republican alternative, which is to let health care costs continue to spiral out of control while that destroys the economy, would be disastrous.

    This is a matter of picking the lesser of two evils. Democratic misery, or Republican apocalypse.

    America desperately needs universal health care. Some day, I hope we can achieve that. Obamacare is a first step along that road.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 7th, 2013 at 08:32 AM.

  16. #66
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    T-Rexx,
    Obamacare was to be prepaid starting from when the law was passed.
    The insurance plan added the children of employees up to the age of 26 at that time, The insurance companies did not eat the cost.
    The cost was passed along
    The Union started charging more last year and explained that they had too because the only other option was to drop our insurance plan.
    Open enrollment for the AFA starts in October and takes ( Full Effect) in January, But much of Obamacare has been implemented over the past 3 years.
    As it is now, We will see how people feel about Obamacare once it is full effect in the next year - For better or worse.

  17. #67
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Ok, I'll admit it. I haven't read this thread because I feel it will be just trashing Obamacare throughout. However, today I got an email from the Whitehouse giving data on three pieces of the bill. I have no problems with it, so this is just for your reading pleasure.

    The email starts here.
    In the past few days, we've received three really interesting new pieces of information about the health care law, and we wanted to share these data points with you so that you get a big picture of how things are changing for the better as the law gets implemented.



    http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013/...urance-choices

    Affordable Care Act Increases Insurance Choices
    May 30, 2013 12:46 PM EDT

    Today, many Americans who buy health insurance on the individual market have only a few options to choose from when selecting an insurance company.

    In fact, in 2012 just one or two different insurance companies dominated the individual insurance market in most states -- in 29 states, one insurer covered more than 50% of all enrollees in the individual insurance market. In 11 states, the largest two issuers covered 85% or more of the individual market.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013/...nd-health-care

    Good News on Innovation and Health Care
    Secretary Kathleen Sebelius
    Secretary Kathleen Sebelius
    May 28, 2013
    12:15 PM EDT

    Ed. note: This is cross-posted from the HealthCare blog at HealthCare.gov. Read more about data-powered health care here.

    A recent New York Times column, Obamacare’s Other Surprise, by Thomas L. Friedman echoes what we’ve been hearing from health care providers and innovators: Data that support medical decision-making and collaboration, dovetailing with new tools in the Affordable Care Act, are spurring the innovation necessary to deliver improved health care for more people at affordable prices.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013/...dable-care-act

    Medicare Trustees: Medicare is Growing Stronger, with Help from the Affordable Care Act
    Jeanne Lambrew and Gene Sperling
    May 31, 2013
    12:30 PM EDT

    Today, the Medicare Trustees reported some good news for seniors and taxpayers: The Medicare program will be solvent through 2026, nearly a decade longer than projected at the time of passage of the Affordable Care Act. This is 2 years longer than projected last year. Their annual report also shows that the long run actuarial deficit in the Hospital Insurance Trust Fund – a measure of its long-term fiscal health – has been cut by more than 70 percent since enactment of the health care law. The long-run Medicare deficit has fallen from 3.88 percent of taxable payroll in the 2009 Trustees Report to 1.11 percent in this report.
    Last edited by White Eagle; June 7th, 2013 at 12:58 PM.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  18. #68
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Your link is just a collection of straw man arguments.
    Very typical TP/GOP response. tsk! tsk! tsk!

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Obamacare is designed so that about half the people will get free insurance at the expense of the other half. Those who file returns must buy UNLESS they cannot afford to. But, 47%of filers pay no tax and about 47% receive some form of welfare. Therefore we must conclude that at least 47% will be deemed too poor to pay for their insurance, so the government will buy it for them. The few people who pay income tax are not eager to have this huge burden dumped on them.
    A true Republican, in love with the Romney 47% comment in Boca Raton a year ago. Of course veterans pensions, Social Security, etc. are seen as "welfare."
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I do not believe that Republicans will ever permit this level of efficiency, however, as that party insists on massive waste and bloat in everything.
    They want the Ponzi schemes that steal more and more wealth from more than 95% of us, and transfer it to those at the top. What's not to love about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck10x View Post
    The cheapest insurance plans have high deductibles and high out of pocket expenses that render them useless unless you have a major illness.
    If you have a pre-existing condition - They have to cover you, But you will pay much more for the coverage.
    Smokers, overweight people will have to pay 50% more.

    I see very little in this plan that is Liberal or Democratic.
    I do see this as a Conservate Republican plan that forces you to pay more - get less, that very few will benefit from.
    Again, a Republican plan to transfer wealth to the top. The bill was almost entirely written by right-wing interests, with much advice and lobbying from the industry, to make it appear that the American public is getting SOMETHING...and, yes, it is better than the dominant Republican plan to simply let costs escalate to where everybody is left in the dust, and the "healthcare" industry has seized nearly all the wealth of the bottom 80% or 90% of Americans.

    A liberal plan would, indeed, be a single payer system, at least partially modeled after programs in places like Canada and Germany. I would be tickled to death, and more than happy, to pay the additional taxes to help fund it. In fact these places are not taxed much more than Americans, either.

    NOBODY EVER MENTIONS what I think is by far the most important feature of Obamacare - that insurers can no longer summarily say something like "You had insurance, but now that you have cancer, we're gonna drop your ass right now." Rescission being illegal is, I think, incredibly important. In the whole history of healthcare discussion in this Forum, I don't remember ever seeing anybody except myself mentioning this...at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    (1) Republicans always seem to regard making life better for people as "failure."

    (2) That's an interesting claim, since Obamacare has yet to be implemented.

    (3) It is better than the (now) Republican non-plan, which is to let our health care system (and economy) collapse.
    (1) That would actually make Obama look good. That would be a failure, because it CANNOT appear that any Democrat is ever capable of doing anything good.
    (2) A friend with pre-existing conditions in Nevada was ineligible for insurance. Last July, he immediately jumped onto something (an insurance exchange??) which because available in Nevada because of Obamacare. The implementation date is, I think, merely the date by which ALL arrangements, in all states, are supposed to be in place - certainly some states have already gone ahead with parts of Obamacare so that there isn't a last minute rush where things can go wrong. Before July, he couldn't get any competent diagnosis, nor could he get any referral to a specialist [oncologist], because he had no insurance. By then, it was already too late. He died nearly five weeks ago because the cancer had already spread too much by last July. In any other modernized country in the world, he would surely still be alive, because he would have gotten care. I suspect even in some countries we think of as "third world" such as Turkey or Paraguay or Cambodia, he would still be alive.
    (3) That would make Obama look really, really bad. SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Yes.
    In your never-ending struggle to make life more miserable for America, you have voted 37 times to try to stop the USA from saving money on healthcare, while yet giving more people coverage.

    Republicans have a fear that a few more Americans may achieve happiness, if they do not act to stop it. On immigration, on gay rights, on health care, on women's rights, on class inequality, the Republican response has been consistent - do what you can to stop people from getting whatever would make their lives better.

    That's rather pathologic.
    It's Obamahate at full tilt, too.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  20. #70

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Conservatives and Republicans hate the plan. It is dishonest for you to keep saying that it is a Republican plan. You 1900 page monstrosity is a Democrat creation, resisted by the Republicans tooth and nail. Romney had to back off from the Mass plan to get nominated.
    Universal health care is not possible in a country where so few people pay taxes. Democrats have worked for generations to exempt their constituents from taxes and have largely succeeded. You cannot expect Republicans to buy health care for the entire welfare culture with more flooding in.
    No, the 47% receiving welfare does not included Social Security, Veterans pensions or Medicare.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Conservatives and Republicans hate the plan. It is dishonest for you to keep saying that it is a Republican plan. You 1900 page monstrosity is a Democrat creation, resisted by the Republicans tooth and nail. Romney had to back off from the Mass plan to get nominated.
    Universal health care is not possible in a country where so few people pay taxes. Democrats have worked for generations to exempt their constituents from taxes and have largely succeeded. You cannot expect Republicans to buy health care for the entire welfare culture with more flooding in.
    No, the 47% receiving welfare does not included Social Security, Veterans pensions or Medicare.
    You are correct to say that Conservatives and Republicans hate the plan. But it is honest to say the plan has an impeccable Republican pedigree. It is dishonest to say that Conservatives and Republicans are consistent or forthright on the issue.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  22. #72

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You are correct to say that Conservatives and Republicans hate the plan. But it is honest to say the plan has an impeccable Republican pedigree. It is dishonest to say that Conservatives and Republicans are consistent or forthright on the issue.
    Nonsense. Your premise is that, if one or some Conservatives once suggested somthing with some aspects similar to the 1900 page monster, then all Conservative must like the present bill or be inconsistent and unforthright. That is preposterous. And remember what Emerson said about consistency and small minds.
    Last edited by Benvolio; June 7th, 2013 at 07:14 PM.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Conservatives and Republicans hate the plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nonsense. Your premise is that, if one or some Conservatives once suggested somthing with some aspects similar to the 1900 page monster, then all Conservative must like the present bill or be inconsistent and unforthright. That is preposterous. And remember what Emerson said about consistency and small minds.

    Well, are you saying
    a) conservatives and republicans hate the plan and are consistently small-minded? or
    b) there is room for debate on the merits of the plan even among conservatives and republicans?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Conservatives and Republicans hate the plan. It is dishonest for you to keep saying that it is a Republican plan.
    No, it's dishonest for you to claim it is NOT a Republican/conservative plan.

    Obamacare/Romneycare was designed in 1989 by the Heritage Foundation as an attempt to stop America from achieving universal, single-payer health care. The trend in the late 20th century appeared to be toward America adopting a European-style, single payer health insurance system. The Heritage Foundation found such a system too cost-effective and compassionate for their tastes, so they developed Obamacare as a straw man "alternative."

    The Heritage Foundation is a conservative "think tank" which seeks to promote conservative ideals in America.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You 1900 page monstrosity is a Democrat creation, resisted by the Republicans tooth and nail.
    It was supported by Republicans, until President Obama indicated his support for the plan, also. Only then did Republicans "resist it tooth and nail."

    The 1993 Republican alternative, introduced by Senator John Chafee (R-RI) as the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act, contained a "Universal Coverage" requirement with a penalty for non-compliance.[156][157] Advocates for the 1993 bill which contained the individual mandate included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate, such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Bob Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO).[158][159] Of the 43 Republicans Senators from 1993, almost half - 20 out of 43 - supported the HEART Act.[151][160] And in 1994 Senator Don Nickles (R-OK) introduced the Consumer Choice Health Security Act which also contained an individual mandate with a penalty provision[161]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient...dable_Care_Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Romney had to back off from the Mass plan to get nominated.
    Yes, I know.

    That was one of the reasons he lost the election. He was forced to back away from and claim he did not support his own party's plan for health care.

    It made him look like a fool.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Universal health care is not possible in a country where so few people pay taxes.
    You mean, like, Greece, Spain, and Italy? All of which have offered excellent universal health care for every citizen for 50 years.

    And why do you say we cannot afford universal health care when we are already paying more than twice as much for non-universal care as is any other country on the planet? You keep insisting that we cannot afford to save lots of money on health care. That argument just doesn't make sense to me.

    Seems to me that we cannot afford NOT to reform health care in America.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Democrats have worked for generations to exempt their constituents from taxes and have largely succeeded.
    Low income people pay a much higher proportion of their income to taxes than do rich people. A fact of which you are well aware.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You cannot expect Republicans to buy health care for the entire welfare culture with more flooding in.



    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, the 47% receiving welfare does not included Social Security, Veterans pensions or Medicare.
    Apparently, you Republicans believe that everyone in America (except for a handful of straight, white, rich, male, fundamentalist Christians) is on the dole.

    What a utopia you would have for yourselves if you twelve people were the only people in America. Good luck running the country without us.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 7th, 2013 at 07:55 PM.

  25. #75

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    The 1900 page monster is a Democrat creation, The fact, if it is the fact, that twenty years ago some Conservatives or Republicans proposed something like an individual mandate does not change the Democrat monster to a Republican one. The Federal Government has no Constitutional power to require individual mandates.
    Low income tax people pay the Social Security tax, but not the income tax.
    Most Americans pay no income tax, and 47% of filers pay none. And yes, 47% receive some form of the dole, not including SS, Medicare and Veterans. More are flooding into the country as we speak. Universal care is out of the question.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The 1900 page monster is a Democrat creation, The fact, if it is the fact, that twenty years ago some Conservatives or Republicans proposed something like an individual mandate does not change the Democrat monster to a Republican one. The Federal Government has no Constitutional power to require individual mandates.
    Low income tax people pay the Social Security tax, but not the income tax.
    Most Americans pay no income tax, and 47% of filers pay none. And yes, 47% receive some form of the dole, not including SS, Medicare and Veterans. More are flooding into the country as we speak. Universal care is out of the question.
    There is a very real risk that prevaricating over the form or type of taxation that is paid skews the discussion.

    Every time I pay for a service or purchase an item I pay tax, here in Greece value added tax that amounts on most goods and services to some 23 percent with a few exceptions that attract a lower rate of VAT. Thus the Greek revenue service receives my taxation contributions. Further most of my electricity bill...some 70 pct. is taxation under one form or another...with only 30 pct. covering electricity consumption. I appreciate that this is not an American matter but helps illustrate that taxation payments are not confined to income tax.

    I would appreciate you offering us a link to a credible source that evidences your contention that most Americans pay no income .....etc.

  27. #77

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Simply google, who pays income tax. This has been gone over so many times before. In the US, the States have a variety of taxes, including real estate and sales taxes. But the Federal government is separate and almost all its revenue comes from the Income Tax. But most people pay none. 47% of people who file returns pay none, but millions more do not file returns.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I would appreciate you offering us a link to a credible source that evidences your contention that most Americans pay no income .....etc.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    http://occupydemocrats.com/paul-ryan...amacare-funds/

    ...and 16 others are begging for Funds while they are Publically against ACA.
    Last edited by Love me 2; June 8th, 2013 at 10:26 AM.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    The real crime here is that 47% of Americans are TOO POOR to pay income taxes.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  31. #81

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The real crime here is that 47% of Americans are TOO POOR to pay income taxes.
    Then, of course, you agree that we should stop allowing millions and millions and millions of additional poor to come into the country to compete with our poor. THAT IS a crime.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    FEAR THE BROWN HORDE!

    Oh Ben, so sad, so tragic, and yet sooo predictable.
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  33. #83

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    For a brief, fleeting moment you pretended to care about our poor. But at the first mention of immigration, they are swept under the rug again.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    There is simply no point in accommodating your one track bigotries.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  35. #85

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    If you could at least understand your own inconsistency, you insults might have a meaning.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Then, of course, you agree that we should stop allowing millions and millions and millions of additional poor to come into the country to compete with our poor. THAT IS a crime.
    Why blame them, they are not the real culprit. The reality is that the filthy Rich and the Corporations owns approximately 80% of the wealth in this Nation....they have become the Nation's Overlords, and yes, they influence only those they can buy off. So, you really cannot place all the blame on the illegal aliens.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    http://occupydemocrats.com/paul-ryan...amacare-funds/

    ...and 16 others are begging for Funds while they are Publically against ACA.
    It seems that the conservatives in this thread are ignoring this one.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    There is simply no point in accommodating your one track bigotries.
    It's part of his bag o' tries at vilifying certain groups,,,(Man-oh-man, I LOVE wordplay!)
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    But the Federal government is separate and almost all its revenue comes from the Income Tax. But most people pay none. 47% of people who file returns pay none, but millions more do not file returns.
    They, the "47 percenters," still pay fed taxes in the form of gasoline, tobacco, (alcohol?) etc. so they aren't getting a totally free ride.
    If you could just put a light bulb over every gay person’s head, people would see just how well-lit their streets and cities are.
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Thank you.

  41. #91
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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Simply google, who pays income tax. This has been gone over so many times before. In the US, the States have a variety of taxes, including real estate and sales taxes. But the Federal government is separate and almost all its revenue comes from the Income Tax. But most people pay none. 47% of people who file returns pay none, but millions more do not file returns.
    The fact remains that everyone who purchases goods or pays for a service pays taxes in one form or another.

    That Federal income tax is not paid by everyone has not denied the Federal Government its revenue to pay for its responsibilities.

    It is often said that under payment of Federal taxes places a brake on government spending that politicians fail to apply.

  42. #92

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The fact remains that everyone who purchases goods or pays for a service pays taxes in one form or another.

    That Federal income tax is not paid by everyone has not denied the Federal Government its revenue to pay for its responsibilities.

    It is often said that under payment of Federal taxes places a brake on government spending that politicians fail to apply.
    You are entirely incorrect. The US government borrows up to a TRILLION Dollars year to pay for its whims. Obamacare will be over and above that until people stop loaning to us and then the system will collapse.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You are entirely incorrect. The US government borrows up to a TRILLION Dollars year to pay for its whims. Obamacare will be over and above that until people stop loaning to us and then the system will collapse.
    Then the Federal Government should emulate its neighbour to its immediate north whose national health service functions very well with each person monthly paying into a national insurance fund to cover health care needs.

    I am amused that there are those living in the United States unable to grasp the fact that most of the countries of the developed world operate their versions of a national health service whereas, all I read from you are excuses for not introducing such a system into the United States. Can the rest of the developed world be insane?

    Most developed nations are running deficits.

  44. #94

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Of course we understand that, but are not persuaded. Those other countries would not be so pleased without the benefit of the vast sums we pay for research. Americans have never wanted socialism and still do not. Of course, the welfare class and immigrants want free care along with everything else at the expense of the American taxpayer. The Democrats are eager to buy their votes with tax money.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Americans love their dose of socialism. Love it. Any politician that talks about cutting Social Security and Medicare is on their last term. A significant minority is in favor of going all the way. And just because one part of life if socialized does not mean the rest is socialized. Look at Canada--they're the country most similar to the U.S. They're not the DPRK. The U.S. is a social democracy, but not as social as the U.K., France, Germany, Norway, or even Canada. It's a proven system. Why do you oppose the one system that pays for itself and WORKS?

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    The U.S. is a social democracy, but not as social as the U.K., France, Germany, Norway, or even Canada. It's a proven system. Why do you oppose the one system that pays for itself and WORKS?
    I keep repeating this question without receiving a tangible answer from the opponents of a national health service for the USA.

  47. #97

    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    SS is not intended to be socialism. It was intended to be a savings system. But, yes, once in place, welfare programs are difficult for politicians to undo.
    The people who pay taxes and pay for their insurance know that their own care will be degraded even as they have to pay for the people getting into the long line ahead of them.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    I'd noticed. I thought maybe if someone else asked (someone he didn't already outright ignore) he might give us a response.

    It's not like it's untrodden ground--the trail has been blazed, cleared, leveled and a paved road now runs along the same path. We don't have to go all the way to the Nordic model (though I think we should), even out to Canada's degree of social support would be a wonderful improvement. That'd certainly be the conservative option.

    (As opposed to the reactionary one, which is to torch all government.)

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    SS is not intended to be socialism. It was intended to be a savings system. But, yes, once in place, welfare programs are difficult for politicians to undo.
    The people who pay taxes and pay for their insurance know that their own care will be degraded even as they have to pay for the people getting into the long line ahead of them.
    Oh really? Have you forgotten what the New Deal was all about? Relief, Recovery, Reform.

    RELIEF. Wherein citizens are guarunteed to have money in the bank at the end of their working life. Part of a social net to ensure the welfare and life of the common person.

    RECOVERY. Wherein the public works programs were doused with money. People getting paid a high minimum wage--something like $22/hour in today's money.

    REFORM. Wherein FDR and his Brain Trust set out to fix the problems of unregulated capitalism by giving it an injection of socialism. The end result is neither capitalism nor socialism. It's a social democracy--again, a balanced system that works. And it did! Throw in WWII and there was no way that we couldn't have escaped the Great Depression. The 1950's was a time of good thinking--tax the rich, they have more to give. Keep the middle class strong by moderately taxing them--put them in brackets to ensure that everyone shares the burden. Keep the poor alive by helping them. And we did some great things with that revenue.

    If you look at every other country that has adopted a national health service, there were teething problems. But they went away when everyone realized that the care was not subpar. In fact, most countries saw improvement in standards, the rest no change.

    The reason welfare works is that it helps people get to the point where they may live comfortably, insure their children's future, and pay full taxes. That's the American Dream.

    The consequence of slashing welfare and turning it into the travesty it is now is that the dream is dead.

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    Re: Is anyone here w/out ins. going to reject "ObamaCare"?

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    I'd noticed. I thought maybe if someone else asked (someone he didn't already outright ignore) he might give us a response.

    It's not like it's untrodden ground--the trail has been blazed, cleared, leveled and a paved road now runs along the same path. We don't have to go all the way to the Nordic model (though I think we should), even out to Canada's degree of social support would be a wonderful improvement. That'd certainly be the conservative option.

    (As opposed to the reactionary one, which is to torch all government.)
    Now you have touched a raw nerve amongst those campaigning for smaller government preferably a government that implements a laisser-faire environment the agenda of the Tea Party brigade dedicated to returning the colonies to their rightful place as a settlement for Puritans.

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