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  1. #51
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I, for one, would be thoroughly for a law that required destruction of collect DNA information IF a suspect is found not to be criminal.
    Insufficient: it should be destroyed once a case is settled, regardless.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #52

    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Bear in mind that such data-bank evidence-- finger prints, photos, DNA, descriptions--often frees innocent people from suspicion, and helps the systems avoid convicting the wrong people. We should require fingerprints and DNA as a condition to obtaining a drivers license, and they should be part of a national ID system, not only to help solve crimes, but to prevent voter fraud and the entry and hiring of illegals.
    Last edited by Benvolio; June 2nd, 2013 at 06:09 PM.

  3. #53
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    But the Court is not discussing that and in the context of this case needn't.

    This discussion is full of the law's "imaginary horribles" and logic's "slippery slope" (http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...ery-slope.html ). There are many hurdles to jump to get from post-arrest DNA sampling to post-traffic violation DNA sampling, much less to random DNA sampling. Further, if the arrest is found to be groundless actions for false arrest and malicious prosecution will obtain.

    Further, while it is not certain protection, I am certain the conservative bent of this Court will so narrowly define "post-arrest DNA sampling" that its extension beyond that limited circumstance will not be countenanced.

    If you say so. I just don't believe your glossing over of the real reason.
    Time and experience will tell.

  4. #54
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Bear in mind that such data-bank evidence-- finger prints, photos, DNA, descriptions--often frees innocent people from suspicion, and helps the systems avoid convicting the wrong people. We should require fingerprints and DNA as a condition to obtaining a drivers license, and they should be part of a national ID system, not only to help solve crimes, but to prevent voter fraud and the entry and hiring of illegals.
    Such Big Brother intrusions into our lives merely invites government to further intrude leading to the development of a police state where government knows everything about everybody ensuring that so called undesirables - those who deviate from perceived acceptable norms in behaviour - are treated appropriately. No thanks for it was not so long ago that gays were considered mentally unstable and imprisoned for engaging in sexual relations considered deviant and illegal by so called decent society.

  5. #55
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Insufficient: it should be destroyed once a case is settled, regardless.
    Now back to the real world.

    This is a nice concern when, through advances in biometrics, one be tracked through the cell phone and identified through the gait.

    See generally, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...0.1.1.176.7670 .

    For gait, see http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...0.1.1.168.2631 (identification through gait analysis using video).

    For an op-ed overview of biometric advances, see http://theweek.com/article/index/244...iometrics-boom .

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  6. #56
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    SCOTUS, 5 to 4, holds that post-arrest DNA sampling is reasonable.

    WASHINGTON (AP) — A sharply divided Supreme Court on Monday said police can routinely take DNA from people they arrest, equating a DNA cheek swab to other common jailhouse procedures like fingerprinting.
    http://news.yahoo.com/court-police-d...141629414.html

    Slip opinion for Maryland vs. King, S.Ct. 12-207 (June 3, 2013), at http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-207_d18e.pdf :

    From the syllabus:

    Held: When officers make an arrest supported by probable cause to hold for a serious offense and bring the suspect to the station to be detained in custody, taking and analyzing a cheek swab of the arrestee’s DNA is, like fingerprinting and photographing, a legitimate police booking procedure that is reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.
    (Opinion converted by me from Adobe PDF to Microsoft Word)

  7. #57
    mitchymo
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    SCOTUS, 5 to 4, holds that post-arrest DNA sampling is reasonable.
    I really don't like these 5-4 votes. They lack conviction.

    I do think the correct decision has been made however.

    Seriously, reading some of the comments in this thread, you'd think there was some secret society that aren't human beings running government. These so called violations of the 4th amendment are pathetic, blocking police from doing their job, catching the bad guys, for what? The possibility that the government (elected, rotating, human), may use the dna from police databases to carry out some dubious plot to rid the world of those that they specifically consider undesireable....

    ...i love movies, but i think some of you guys are failing to disconnect after watching them.

    First and foremost, police records are just that, POLICE records, government shouldn't have access to them, just like medical records are private.

  8. #58
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The possibility that the government (elected, rotating, human), may use the dna from police databases to carry out some dubious plot to rid the world of those that they specifically consider undesireable....
    ....

    First and foremost, police records are just that, POLICE records, government shouldn't have access to them, just like medical records are private.
    If only the part in bold were true.

    As for your all-so-trusting final point, all I need say is: I R S.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #59
    mitchymo
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If only the part in bold were true.

    As for your all-so-trusting final point, all I need say is: I R S.
    So the process of forming government is imperfect, that doesn't negate the 'elected' portion in whole, nor does it excuse doing the right thing. If we all adopted the 'systems broken' approach, we wouldn't get anywhere. You can fix what needs fixing later and still take the responsible approach rather than the paranoid one. And, unless your MP's are immortal, they do rotate. Just cos you might not be able to trust this generations....i need not go on.

    And IRS? What have taxes got to do with criminal records?

  10. #60

    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    If even one serial killer or one terrorist is stopped, it will justify the DNA collection, but in practice, many crimes will be solved. Remember hoe many prisoners have been released by DNA evidence. This data base will help prevent such convictions from happening.

  11. #61
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    This article needs only a few minutes of your time. Worth the read:

    http://www.genewatch.org/sub-539478

  12. #62
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This article needs only a few minutes of your time. Worth the read:

    http://www.genewatch.org/sub-539478
    Some good; some bad.

    Some I agree with; some I don't.

    Thank you for article which points out many of the problematic issues.

    Meanwhile, the advances in biometrics may make much of this discussion out of date even as we have it.

    (Welcome back to CEP kallipolis. We so seldom see you over here in full battle armor.)

  13. #63
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Such Big Brother intrusions into our lives merely invites government to further intrude leading to the development of a police state where government knows everything about everybody ensuring that so called undesirables - those who deviate from perceived acceptable norms in behaviour - are treated appropriately. No thanks for it was not so long ago that gays were considered mentally unstable and imprisoned for engaging in sexual relations considered deviant and illegal by so called decent society.
    Of late I am becoming more concerned over the data and information compiled by and shared among corporate interests. See my comments and cites on Biometrics above. While such cannot incarcerate us it can wrap one up pretty tight. We have fewer remedies and recourse against such use than we do when used by the Federal Government, to which it is probably available by subpoena or warrant.

  14. #64
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Theoretically, this is a GREAT thing - and it may solve a lot more crimes, prevent malicious or wrong convictions and void others, etc. It could even be used for a foolproof electoral system.

    In real life, it is rife and wide open for unconscionable and extreme abuse of all kinds. If the government ever allows corporate access to our DNA on a pervasive basis, we're screwed. WE ALL know there are corporations champing-at-the-bit to get their filthy grubby hands on everybody's DNA, and we all know that corporations almost always get everything they want (and more), because they grease the political machine with untold and almost unimaginable amounts of mammon.

    (And, yes, using a word from the Bible, in place of much more commonly saying "money" or "wealth," is appropriate. Corporations, CEO's, and the big shareholders, worship at the Altar of Mammon.)
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  15. #65
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    So the process of forming government is imperfect, that doesn't negate the 'elected' portion in whole, nor does it excuse doing the right thing. If we all adopted the 'systems broken' approach, we wouldn't get anywhere. You can fix what needs fixing later and still take the responsible approach rather than the paranoid one. And, unless your MP's are immortal, they do rotate. Just cos you might not be able to trust this generations....i need not go on.
    The real government is not elected, and does not rotate.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    And IRS? What have taxes got to do with criminal records?
    You haven't been paying attention to the scandals lately?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #66
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If even one serial killer or one terrorist is stopped, it will justify the DNA collection, but in practice, many crimes will be solved. Remember hoe many prisoners have been released by DNA evidence. This data base will help prevent such convictions from happening.
    That is the position of someone who doesn't believe in the value of human life or individual dignity. It is the position of a tyrant, who wants things tidy for himself and doesn't care on whose toes (or necks) he steps.

    Better a thousand guilty go free than one innocent be punished.
    -- T. Jefferson

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #67
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This article needs only a few minutes of your time. Worth the read:

    http://www.genewatch.org/sub-539478
    One very important line:

    A massive expansion in the number of individuals on the Database has not led to any noticable increase in the likelihood of identifying a suspect.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #68
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If even one serial killer or one terrorist is stopped, it will justify the DNA collection, but in practice, many crimes will be solved. Remember hoe many prisoners have been released by DNA evidence. This data base will help prevent such convictions from happening.
    If even one serial killer or terrorist would be stopped by gun registration, it would justify the effort; but, in practice, many crimes would be solved.

    You vehemently oppose gun registration because of the possibility that such (extremely limited) information could somehow be misused by the government.

    But, it does not bother you that the government will be maintaining information that will reveal to them your health records, your sex, your sexuality, your ethnic heritage, your family relationship with political activists, and whether or not you or your kids are likely to get a disease that would be expensive to treat.

    Because, we all know that the government's ability to trace a weapon used in a crime back to its owner is extremely dangerous. But, there is no chance that all the intimate details of your life in a central repository could ever be misused.

  19. #69

    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    When did I say any of those things?

  20. #70
    mitchymo
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The real government is not elected, and does not rotate.
    Implying there is a fake government? Bordering on conspiracy there.



    You haven't been paying attention to the scandals lately?
    I live outside of Americaland.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Better a thousand guilty go free than one innocent be punished.
    -- T. Jefferson
    A variation on past quotes, referring to the guilty escaping death to ensure that an innocent life is not wrongly taken. I'm pretty damn sure its not an excuse for LITERALLY allowing the guilty to go free on the off chance that government may abuse the system. The system has been abused since time immemorial. Whatever paranoia people may have at what government 'could' do if they so wanted, its just that, paranoia. I'm not saying it wouldn't or couldn't happen, just that there is far more point in doing something that we know is going to have a positive result, than not doing it 'just in case'.

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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Court is wrong on this, they don't know what they are there for anymore.

    Forget the politics or even the current law, we have the constitution which was specifically designed to prevent abuses of power.

    To hide this search behind the cloak of securing justice by warrantless desecration of innocents liberty..wow..that just smacks of fascism.


  22. #72
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Quote Originally Posted by evanrick View Post
    Court is wrong on this, they don't know what they are there for anymore.

    Forget the politics or even the current law, we have the constitution which was specifically designed to prevent abuses of power.

    To hide this search behind the cloak of securing justice by warrantless desecration of innocents liberty..wow..that just smacks of fascism.
    I agree. Europe has this one right.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #73
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    Re: SCOTUS Considers Post-Arrest DNA Sampling

    Europe has many things right.

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