AWWWW Hell Naw! It may seem perverse? Really???
AWWWW Hell Naw! It may seem perverse? Really???
It is both eye opening and interesting to see how they formulate their arguments to support their opinion.
Obviously there are basically only two definitions to answering the question but by reading the posts of each member one learns a little more about them, their experiences and their outlook on life.
Isn't that what an Internet forum is for.
I wouldn't stay here long if to every question each member answered just "yes" or "no".
Last edited by dpnice; April 27th, 2013 at 11:21 AM. Reason: English!!!!!!
Sure if they keep their opinions to themselves and all the conversations don't center around homosexually.
There are so many factors....and then there is the difference between "friend" and "acquaintance".
I would not accept a friend who was homophobic but an acquaintance?...depends. Alot depends on context.
I have a huge problem if the person is GBLT and homophobic (and I think men who shame feminine men fall into this category as well as most republican gays that I have met) ...not even an acquaintance level will work for me. I think life is to short to subject myself to that.
Before this thread drops dead of its own weight, I have a couple more thoughts on the subject (and yes, I do continue arguing with you all when I'm not here).
Something that has been niggling in the back of my mind are some questions, posed by I do not remember whom, along the lines of: isn't my friend disapproving of my sexuality the same as me disapproving of my friend's girlfriend, or his drug habits?
Here's the difference: you know your friend, you know the girlfriend, you believe based on knowledge and reason that they are a bad mix. You believe based on your knowledge of the individual that the girlfriend is a total cunt and not to be trusted with your friend's happiness. You know from seeing others suffer the effects of drug addiction that your friend's drug use can and most likely will lead to unhappiness, ill health, and death.
Conversely, someone who disapproves of homosexuality has no actual knowledge of the subject: it's because Magic Man in the Sky said so in a bunch of ancient stories translated across dozens of languages and thousands of years. They have no reason to believe that homosexuality is bad, they were simply told so... and do not wish to question it because to do so would call into question other beliefs on which they've based their lives.
This is why I have little respect for organized religion and no respect whatever for scriptural absolutism. People who rely on these things have not decided that an action or attitude is good or bad based on rational thought, nor on observation, nor even on instinct: they base it on a need to not die and a terrible fear of going to hell. That's childish, and any belief system that comes out of a book of ancient verse is suspect and inadmissible. Rather than thinking through whether or not something is good or bad, they refer all decisions to someone else who has read the book and supposedly knows what it means.
Though I certainly haven't met everyone in the world, the people I have met who believe in a singular interpretation of an ancient text cannot defend their beliefs, all they can do is say "it's a matter of faith," and I'm supposed to accept their condemnation of me, or some facet of me, based on their irrational faith.
Incidentally, I do believe in the value of faith. I have faith in all sorts of things that I have no rational reason to have faith in... like the existence of an interested and benevolent God. But when people construct elaborate strictures of behavior, and expect other people to follow those strictures, based on an unprovable article of faith, they put themselves in the wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Another thing that's been banging around in the back of my mind was a post comment that suggested I might extend the latitude I grant my grandmother and her irrational faith-based thinking to non-grandmothers (which is a neat turn of phrase). Perhaps, if I were a Christian saint, I might do so. But since I am a rationalist, I refer to a cost-benefit analysis. And in any c/b analysis of my relationship with my grandmother, her distasteful and damaging religious beliefs are heavily outweighed by what she has done for me and for those I love.
OK, Grandmother disapproves of my sexuality, and she doesn't even know why, only that she believes she's supposed to in order to go to heaven. I find that incredibly hurtful. However, I wouldn't be alive right now if it wasn't for her kindness to me... and that kindness was and is regardless of my sexuality, not in spite of it. I've never had to lie to her, in fact she was one of the first people I came out to; and though she said then that she disapproves, she's never once in the last thirty years tried to punish me for it.
She loved me when I was an otherwise unloved child, gave me hope and affection and attention when the other people who were supposed to be caring for me (my parents) were abusing and/or ignoring me. She took me in when I was a teenager and given the choice between living in squalor and hatred and ugliness with one of my real parents or living in a stable home with someone who loved me and cared about me. She took me in when I was a young adult and my drinking had closed so many doors for me that the only choice I had left, besides her, was to turn to prostitution... and not the sex-positive kind, but the degrading, soul-destroying kind.
She helped me through college, she helped me get sober and stay sober, she's given me stability and safety, a place to live and food to eat when others who do accept my sexuality would not have lifted a finger. With all of that in the balance, her undefended disapproval of my sexuality is almost irrelevant, a one-pound turd weighed against a ton of gold.
That same attitude, coming from someone who has done nothing tangible for me and proposes to do nothing tangible for me... well, a one-pound turd is a pretty large and nasty object. Any person coming to my door with a one-pound turd and nothing of greater value than the pleasure of his company to offer in balance will obviously be invited to leave.
Anyway, some thoughts... for what they're worth.
Last edited by Swellegant; April 28th, 2013 at 04:45 PM.
* Question the Dominant Paradigm *
^Your testimony of your grandmother's love is touching.
I'm glad this thread ran long enough to evoke it.
Many of us have friends who have more positives than negatives, and we've learned not to cast away friends lightly.
OTOH, I feel like we shouldn't maybe be too hard on people.
I've seen this with my parents, e.g.
I wouldn't say they were "homophobes", but they certainly wern't openly embracing gay people either.
I came out some time ago, and they accepted me 100%
I, however, still struggle with the question in my head "Who was the 'real you' (parent)? The one who didn't like gays, or the one who now suddenly likes gays, because your son is one?"
I confronted them with this issue I had. And I felt that I kinda hurt their feelings, by putting it this way, but they also seemed to understand where I came from.
They told me: "People can change", "personal views and opinions can change based on personal experiences" ...
So maybe the same goes for some friends aswell.
If they are against homosexuality, isn't it most likely that THEY will decide that they don't want anything to do with you, once they find out you're gay?
If they find out you're gay, tell you they have certain reserves about it, yet still keep investing in a friendship, then they are not AGAINST homosexuality. Then they are being your friend, and they could, through friendship, start accepting "homosexuality" in general.
Of course, now we're talking in the hypothesis that a "friend" KNOW you're gay.
If the question is, "would you stay closeted friends with someone who seems anti-gay while he as your friend doesn't know that you're gay?", now that's a whole other story...
Still, I have to admit, one of the things I still struggle with most since coming out: "Why couldn't be these people be so nice about being gay BEFORE I came out? I could have made my life so much easier! Or are they only putting up a sharade because I came out?"
Changing one's views is a process. It's not like a miraculous cure. Give people time to grow into their changes.
The older generation has lived through very different times than the children's generation, so it may be worth remembering that as one gives credit for change.
We should be glad for the progress that is being made, not undermine it by demeaning it as self-serving. After all, it doesn't serve their interests explicitly, but ours.
I can and do. But they are few and far between, mainly because to most it is a totally irrelevant issue. As it is to me.
^ Can one be "against homosexually" and still consider it a "totally irrelevant issue"?
It's interesting to see how quickly our thoughts/ideas go off in different directions. You can almost date/age each poster by his assessment.
But, I find it wrong to bring up the parent/grandparent bond/situation in this thread. I really don't think that's what Mr. C. Boy is talking about/asking.
I think it would be impossible to duplicate the caregiver/dependant situation, where someone carries baby pictures of you in their wallet for ten or twenty+ years before ever knowing you were gay, in a friendship between two adults.
I have no shortage of options for friendships in which my sexuality isn't even close to being an issue. So what's the incentive for hanging out with folks who are anti-gay? Simply put: there is none.
After coming out, I've had one "friend" give me shit. I no longer hang out with her. Since then, I've made a ton more and they're all warm and accepting.
I guess it comes down to luck with me.
Last edited by TheSpectatingLoner; April 29th, 2013 at 07:22 AM.
Acquaintances, maybe. But friends? How would that even work? Not very well!
Staying friends with a homophobe would likely cause stress in our friendship to the point of mutual distancing. It has taken me (still in progress) years to tear down walls about myself that I had put up because I was gay. I don't even know how I was able to communicate with people while I was in the closet, but it wasn't me. So I'm not keen on going back to that.
I've stayed friends with three people and turned them around on it, so yep!
People can change
I make my bed with the stars above my head and dream of a place called home.
That is a good point about changing people's perception...and it brings me to the part I left out earlier but since a few people have brought it up ......
Thing is...I really like men. Not just for sex and romance....I like the company of men. I like who they are. I like to hang around them. I like gay men and straight men...from uber masculine men and uber feminine men and everything in between. I really enjoy and naturally gravitate toward blue collar types of men for friendship and conversation....and I never hide my sexuality but it is a non issue for me and so it is a non issue for them...100 out of 100 times. I can say that these kinds of men actually appreciate having the opportunity to make it a non issue as well...if you give them a chance...and I do.
Yes...I would. As long as they don't denigrate me or make nasty comments about my lifestyle. I mean...there are people who have their reasons to be against homosexuality...be it religious or otherwise...that doesn't make them by definition...homophobic. As long as there is an agreement to disagree (spoken or unspoken) I'm ok. It would be the same as saying someone who has a difference on immigration or isn't a Catholic as I am could not be friends with me. Furthermore, the best discoveries come out of disagreements (in terms of science, math and so on).
I like this topic a lot
A lot of sensible, yet sometimes opposite views by different posters...
My main point is still this: "would people who are against homosexuality want to be friends with YOU?"
My guess would be: "No, unless they didn't know you were gay". If they did, then they'd know that they were (had always been) friends with "a homo" (lol), and therefore "being against homosexuality" is euhm... ridiculous.
Therefor, the point is "mooh", it's like a cow's opinon, it's "mooh"*
* dixit Joey TRIBBIANI
The one friend I mentioned not being so friendly with... we got into a spat about some obnoxious Jason Collins Facebook status she put up. It ended with me unfriending her. Now she's completely cut from my life.
Do you really think that's fair? I don't.
Someone's being "against homosexuality" is, more often than not, just one symptom of a much larger disease/problem, and few people have the time, energy, and/or expertise to 'cure' them.
I'm sure most people have plenty enough problems of their own, and things to get done, these days, without taking on such projects.
Nope ... I don't waste my time being 'friends' with ignorant bigoted cunts.
Also, being anti-gay is usually a symptom of some sort of religious disease.
How is it that you find yourself meeting not only a lot of atheists, but also atheists who are anti-gay?
I'm curious because the few atheists I've known are smart enough, and polite enough, to avoid the usual conflicts and/or hurt feelings.
Where are you meeting them, and how does this information present itself?
What this thread, and those who are keen to cut out the haters, fails to take into account is that it is possible to be uncomfortable with an idea and NOT be of the pitchfork-bearing-angry-mob-baying-for-blood mentality. I do think it's possible to be friends, good friends, with someone and not be in 100% synchronicity with him, even on terrifically important matters. Is that not the very definition of the tolerance we all claim to want? Or is it for yes-men only?
I won't hang out with someone who is hell-bent on persecuting me; that's a no brainer. But that's either the black or the white of the issue, and there are numerous greys in between which too many of us view as deal-breakers.
Is your definition of 'friends with' all about just tolerating people?
I think this would have been a completely different thread had the title been 'Can You Tolerate Someone Who Is Against Homosexuality?'
Anyway, it most certainly is not fair of you to ask anyone to take on the task of educating or converting someone who is 'against homosexuality'. Where do you get off with that? Who do you think you are?
And, I think words like 'pitchfork' and 'angry mob' have nothing to do with simply choosing not to invite someone into our lives.
Lighten up on the drama a bit, please.
^^^ Those living in a glass house best not throw stones
What a fascinating thread for me to come back into from an extended hiatus!
seriooooooooooooooooooous question methinks
is human race out da padded cell?
any world leadurs fig bullshit raise ya foot
space a final frontears beatween human ape ears"but wot aboot?" sssssh"now ta bamba_bambabambabamba_easy innit
One, you're not educating or converting any old SOMEONE - this is/was a friend; by definition a friend should be well worth the effort, I'd assume. Unless you change yours like you change your underpants, mind.
Two, of course it's about tolerance, to a large degree. Some of the things I do my friends don't like; some of the things they do I don't like. Of course those aspects are tolerated.
i've met a good number of super macho guys in high school who are "ew wtf gays..but omg lesbians so hot" nothing to do with religion (you could argue that oh one of them is in the closet..maybe one or two...but i highly doubt all or even a majority of them are in the closet or whatever)
and then i've heard of girls who are "lol gay guys are so cute...but ew wtf dykes ew lesbians" again nothing to do with religion
or they might be raised in households where the parents are from countries where homosexuality isnt discussed. or seen as "normal" even if they arent religious. i.e most people from like rural China probably arent religious...but do you think the majority of them think highly of gay people? probably not
Last edited by penayforay; May 2nd, 2013 at 03:08 PM.